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	<title>Comments on: Whose Truth Do You Trust in the Gaza Conflict?</title>
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	<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/</link>
	<description>A Blog by Jim Wallis and Friends</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:27:14 -0700</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: calledme</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82467</link>
		<dc:creator>calledme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82467</guid>
		<description>She also said, &quot;Religion without humanity is very poor human stuff.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She also said, &#8220;Religion without humanity is very poor human stuff.”</p>
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		<title>By: calledme</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82465</link>
		<dc:creator>calledme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:40:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82465</guid>
		<description>The problem with what you say, erbe, is not the content -- it&#039;s the fact that both sides will claim wht you say as their own truth, to justify their own behavior.  Back to Lincoln -- rather than justifying ourselves by claiming God is on our side, we should be asking God how we can be on His side.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s incorrect to talk about the &quot;Palestinians&quot; and the &quot;Israelis&quot;.  Very few, relatively speaking, have any say in this at all.  On either side they&#039;re running with -- or to -- their children, crying in fear and grief.  A handful from each side of the border will sit down at a table, as they have in the past, and commit themselves to an agreement they&#039;ll support according to their own interests.  Their interests will decide when the other side has violated the agreement and war can begin.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t know exactly what I can do about any of this, but I keep praying for some insight into that.   Sojourner Truth once said, “If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again.”  It seems we can paraphrase this to fit all of us who want the killing -- all of it -- stopped.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with what you say, erbe, is not the content &#8212; it&#39;s the fact that both sides will claim wht you say as their own truth, to justify their own behavior.  Back to Lincoln &#8212; rather than justifying ourselves by claiming God is on our side, we should be asking God how we can be on His side.</p>
<p>It&#39;s incorrect to talk about the &#8220;Palestinians&#8221; and the &#8220;Israelis&#8221;.  Very few, relatively speaking, have any say in this at all.  On either side they&#39;re running with &#8212; or to &#8212; their children, crying in fear and grief.  A handful from each side of the border will sit down at a table, as they have in the past, and commit themselves to an agreement they&#39;ll support according to their own interests.  Their interests will decide when the other side has violated the agreement and war can begin.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t know exactly what I can do about any of this, but I keep praying for some insight into that.   Sojourner Truth once said, “If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these together ought to be able to turn it back and get it right side up again.”  It seems we can paraphrase this to fit all of us who want the killing &#8212; all of it &#8212; stopped.</p>
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		<title>By: meurig</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82346</link>
		<dc:creator>meurig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82346</guid>
		<description>Aquaman, I cannot blame you for repeating the line that the media have fed us about a &quot;credible peace offer&quot; at Camp David.  You probably haven&#039;t delved into the details of that offer.  The problem is, the media - throughout the west but especially in the US - mostly didn&#039;t either, and therefore fed us misleading information.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;One group that did do the necessary research was the Israeli peace movement Gush Shalom.  You can read what they said about it at the time at &lt;a href=&quot;http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/archives_engfaq/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/ar...&lt;/a&gt; .  Unfortunately there are flaws in the html coding there, but it explains pretty comprehensively why the Camp David proposal could not have resulted in viable Palestinian self-determination and therefore was unacceptable.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would also invite you to do a mental comparison between the way that Israel &quot;responds to attacks on its citizens within its internationally recognized borders&quot; and the way that Britain did when faced with IRA terrorism.  I&#039;m not saying that the latter was always a perfect model of restraint and prejudice-free justice - but the differences should be self-evident to anyone with a passing knowledge of both situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aquaman, I cannot blame you for repeating the line that the media have fed us about a &#8220;credible peace offer&#8221; at Camp David.  You probably haven&#39;t delved into the details of that offer.  The problem is, the media &#8211; throughout the west but especially in the US &#8211; mostly didn&#39;t either, and therefore fed us misleading information.</p>
<p>One group that did do the necessary research was the Israeli peace movement Gush Shalom.  You can read what they said about it at the time at <a href="http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/archive/archives_engfaq/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/ar.." rel="nofollow">http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/ar..</a>. .  Unfortunately there are flaws in the html coding there, but it explains pretty comprehensively why the Camp David proposal could not have resulted in viable Palestinian self-determination and therefore was unacceptable.</p>
<p>I would also invite you to do a mental comparison between the way that Israel &#8220;responds to attacks on its citizens within its internationally recognized borders&#8221; and the way that Britain did when faced with IRA terrorism.  I&#39;m not saying that the latter was always a perfect model of restraint and prejudice-free justice &#8211; but the differences should be self-evident to anyone with a passing knowledge of both situations.</p>
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		<title>By: erbe</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82314</link>
		<dc:creator>erbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 21:03:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82314</guid>
		<description>So I guess if I steal your car you shouldn&#039;t make any attempt to get it back from me?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And, I guess you&#039;re just as much to blame for your car being stolen as I am for stealing it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Trying thinking of &quot;accountability&quot; when you want to use the word blame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I guess if I steal your car you shouldn&#39;t make any attempt to get it back from me?</p>
<p>And, I guess you&#39;re just as much to blame for your car being stolen as I am for stealing it.</p>
<p>Trying thinking of &#8220;accountability&#8221; when you want to use the word blame.</p>
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		<title>By: miteypen</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82306</link>
		<dc:creator>miteypen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82306</guid>
		<description>I am weary of hearing all the arguments based on past evidence. No matter who was &quot;wrong&quot; in the past, does that justify the actions of the present? The main reason that peace is unattainable is this conflict is because both sides are playing the blame game. How can they start anew? Is there any answer in God&#039;s word?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am weary of hearing all the arguments based on past evidence. No matter who was &#8220;wrong&#8221; in the past, does that justify the actions of the present? The main reason that peace is unattainable is this conflict is because both sides are playing the blame game. How can they start anew? Is there any answer in God&#39;s word?</p>
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		<title>By: anotherbob</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82294</link>
		<dc:creator>anotherbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82294</guid>
		<description>The immediate truth is very clear -- hundreds are dying. Why is Sojourners silent on this with regard to taking action? Why no email asking the religious community to speak out against this violence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The immediate truth is very clear &#8212; hundreds are dying. Why is Sojourners silent on this with regard to taking action? Why no email asking the religious community to speak out against this violence?</p>
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		<title>By: erbe</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82292</link>
		<dc:creator>erbe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 15:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82292</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure Jesus was thrilled to see the Zionists appropriate Palestinian land with trickery and subterfuge and when that didn&#039;t work with the Irgun and Stern Gang. And I&#039;m sure he was thrilled at how the Zionists went about establishing their state with land appropriated from the Palestinians. And what must really please Jesus now is how the Zionists show their love and compassion to their enemies. Did Jesus say we were to love our enemies? Turn the other cheek? Oh, I forget the Zionists live by another moral code, promulgated by their &quot;spiritual&quot; ancestor Jacob. And we shouldn&#039;t forget the other tenet that is a cornerstone of their moral philosophy - an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;And of course, the United States government, as the worlds leading &quot;Christian&quot; moral authority, supports Israel&#039;s Zionists completely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m sure Jesus was thrilled to see the Zionists appropriate Palestinian land with trickery and subterfuge and when that didn&#39;t work with the Irgun and Stern Gang. And I&#39;m sure he was thrilled at how the Zionists went about establishing their state with land appropriated from the Palestinians. And what must really please Jesus now is how the Zionists show their love and compassion to their enemies. Did Jesus say we were to love our enemies? Turn the other cheek? Oh, I forget the Zionists live by another moral code, promulgated by their &#8220;spiritual&#8221; ancestor Jacob. And we shouldn&#39;t forget the other tenet that is a cornerstone of their moral philosophy &#8211; an eye for an eye, tooth for tooth.</p>
<p>And of course, the United States government, as the worlds leading &#8220;Christian&#8221; moral authority, supports Israel&#39;s Zionists completely.</p>
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		<title>By: jonabark</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82286</link>
		<dc:creator>jonabark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82286</guid>
		<description>The reports on this process and the substance of any proposal is not clear. Neither the US nor Israel has ever put forth a clear, written proposal that returned the West Bank and gave the Palestinians full sovereignty. Robert Malley, a participant in the Summit said &quot;Barak refused to hold any substantive meeting with him( Arafat) at Camp David out of fear that the Palestinian leader would seek to put Israeli concessions on the record.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is good reason to think Arafat should have done more to take up what was offered and work toward a final deal. But if the proposal was good, why not make it to Abbas whom Israel&#039;s leaders describe as reasonable? There is also serious question whether Barak could have carried out these proposals.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Until the US withdraws its un-questioning support of Israel  and demands the cesssation of new settlements in the West Bank land acquired by war I foresee no progress. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Many heroes have given their lives for peace, but so far a US president will not even risk his job for peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reports on this process and the substance of any proposal is not clear. Neither the US nor Israel has ever put forth a clear, written proposal that returned the West Bank and gave the Palestinians full sovereignty. Robert Malley, a participant in the Summit said &#8220;Barak refused to hold any substantive meeting with him( Arafat) at Camp David out of fear that the Palestinian leader would seek to put Israeli concessions on the record.&#8221;</p>
<p>There is good reason to think Arafat should have done more to take up what was offered and work toward a final deal. But if the proposal was good, why not make it to Abbas whom Israel&#39;s leaders describe as reasonable? There is also serious question whether Barak could have carried out these proposals.  </p>
<p>Until the US withdraws its un-questioning support of Israel  and demands the cesssation of new settlements in the West Bank land acquired by war I foresee no progress. </p>
<p>Many heroes have given their lives for peace, but so far a US president will not even risk his job for peace.</p>
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		<title>By: the_Tmac</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82273</link>
		<dc:creator>the_Tmac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 05:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82273</guid>
		<description>My pastor friends visited Israel and Palestine last year.  They were welcomed by the Palestinians and stayed in many of their homes.  They stood with Palestinian families as Israeli tanks came to bulldoze their homes for new Israeli settlements.  They met with parents whose children had been shot by Israeli soldiers as they played on the playground at school. &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;They also saw great signs of hope, however.  There were groups of former Israeli soldiers who spoke out against the occupation and the way they were taught to hate their Palestinian neighbors.  They were working alongside these neighbors for nonviolent paths to peace.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Citizens of both Israel and Palestine are realizing that there will be no lasting peace for either country until there is justice for Palestinians.  But the military escalation of violence is doing such great damage to the cause of peace.  It is not addressing the root cause of the problem, which is that Palestinians have been robbed of their native land, their farms, access to hospitals and good schools, their freedom and their dignity.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If we truly care about Israel, we must demand justice for Palestine and an end to this illegal and cruel use of our tax dollars on military violence against an impoverished people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My pastor friends visited Israel and Palestine last year.  They were welcomed by the Palestinians and stayed in many of their homes.  They stood with Palestinian families as Israeli tanks came to bulldoze their homes for new Israeli settlements.  They met with parents whose children had been shot by Israeli soldiers as they played on the playground at school. </p>
<p>They also saw great signs of hope, however.  There were groups of former Israeli soldiers who spoke out against the occupation and the way they were taught to hate their Palestinian neighbors.  They were working alongside these neighbors for nonviolent paths to peace.</p>
<p>Citizens of both Israel and Palestine are realizing that there will be no lasting peace for either country until there is justice for Palestinians.  But the military escalation of violence is doing such great damage to the cause of peace.  It is not addressing the root cause of the problem, which is that Palestinians have been robbed of their native land, their farms, access to hospitals and good schools, their freedom and their dignity.</p>
<p>If we truly care about Israel, we must demand justice for Palestine and an end to this illegal and cruel use of our tax dollars on military violence against an impoverished people.</p>
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		<title>By: nuclearferret</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82210</link>
		<dc:creator>nuclearferret</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82210</guid>
		<description>Considering the organization&#039;s record, I will pass on the UN as a distributor of unbiased truth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Considering the organization&#39;s record, I will pass on the UN as a distributor of unbiased truth.</p>
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		<title>By: aquaman</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/07/whose-truth-do-you-trust-in-the-gaza-conflict/comment-page-1/#comment-82204</link>
		<dc:creator>aquaman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:58:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5044#comment-82204</guid>
		<description>I love Sojourners&#039; witness to the Biblical call to peace and justice.  I regret, however, that after seeming to take a more balanced approach in recent months, this blog has reverted to the old, one-sided view of the conflict in Israel-Palestine.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Palestinians did in fact hold the moral high ground for a long time, but the ground shifted in 2000 when Ehud Barak made a credible peace offer and the Palestinians responded not with a counter-offer, but with war.  Continuing to judge Israel&#039;s actions as though they were not at war with an adversary that has sworn itself to Israel&#039;s destruction is unfair.  It also invites charges of anti-Semitism, because Israel is the only nation-state so harshly judged for responding to attacks on its citizens within its internationally recognized borders.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the question at the top of this post, isn&#039;t truth the first casualty of war??  Of course we don&#039;t know how many Palestinians have died in Gaza, how many of those dead were children, or whether those deaths were the result of reckless military tactics.  Such is the nature of war, which is evil.  (War is sometimes a necessary evil, but that&#039;s a whole other discussion.)&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I continue to pray for peace in the Holy Land-- not just the absence of violence, but the presence of justice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Sojourners&#39; witness to the Biblical call to peace and justice.  I regret, however, that after seeming to take a more balanced approach in recent months, this blog has reverted to the old, one-sided view of the conflict in Israel-Palestine.</p>
<p>Palestinians did in fact hold the moral high ground for a long time, but the ground shifted in 2000 when Ehud Barak made a credible peace offer and the Palestinians responded not with a counter-offer, but with war.  Continuing to judge Israel&#39;s actions as though they were not at war with an adversary that has sworn itself to Israel&#39;s destruction is unfair.  It also invites charges of anti-Semitism, because Israel is the only nation-state so harshly judged for responding to attacks on its citizens within its internationally recognized borders.</p>
<p>As for the question at the top of this post, isn&#39;t truth the first casualty of war??  Of course we don&#39;t know how many Palestinians have died in Gaza, how many of those dead were children, or whether those deaths were the result of reckless military tactics.  Such is the nature of war, which is evil.  (War is sometimes a necessary evil, but that&#39;s a whole other discussion.)</p>
<p>I continue to pray for peace in the Holy Land&#8211; not just the absence of violence, but the presence of justice.</p>
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