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	<title>Comments on: Nonviolence Begets Nonviolence</title>
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	<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/</link>
	<description>A Blog by Jim Wallis and Friends</description>
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		<title>By: electriclady281</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-83393</link>
		<dc:creator>electriclady281</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:36:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-83393</guid>
		<description>Thanks, peacelover!  You can count how many others there are if you can count the stars!&lt;br&gt;I think the way to peace in this world and a cessation of the violence that has wracked humanity through the ages, is the individual&#039;s bringing to ever-increasing awareness what is unreal and holding to reality in allowance and non-attachment to outcome and judgment.&lt;br&gt;electriclady281</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, peacelover!  You can count how many others there are if you can count the stars!<br />I think the way to peace in this world and a cessation of the violence that has wracked humanity through the ages, is the individual&#39;s bringing to ever-increasing awareness what is unreal and holding to reality in allowance and non-attachment to outcome and judgment.<br />electriclady281</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82794</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:20:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82794</guid>
		<description>you said&lt;br&gt;&quot;impossible&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>you said<br />&#8220;impossible&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82777</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82777</guid>
		<description>I still don&#039;t get what you&#039;re saying.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#39;t get what you&#39;re saying.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82775</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82775</guid>
		<description>no room</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>no room</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82549</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:32:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82549</guid>
		<description>Elaborate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elaborate.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82548</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 21:27:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82548</guid>
		<description>impossible</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>impossible</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82547</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82547</guid>
		<description>On what basis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On what basis?</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82545</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82545</guid>
		<description>Good point. I still disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point. I still disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82543</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82543</guid>
		<description>You would then disagree with Gandhi, who conceived it in the first place; and King, who borrowed heavily from him, as a way to attain justice.  Nonviolence should never be confused with pacifism, which I define as peace at any price for its own sake.  After all, by that definition the pre-civil-rights South was peaceful but still dangerous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would then disagree with Gandhi, who conceived it in the first place; and King, who borrowed heavily from him, as a way to attain justice.  Nonviolence should never be confused with pacifism, which I define as peace at any price for its own sake.  After all, by that definition the pre-civil-rights South was peaceful but still dangerous.</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82536</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82536</guid>
		<description>Neither were the letters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neither were the letters.</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82535</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:10:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82535</guid>
		<description>We disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82534</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82534</guid>
		<description>No, the goal of nonviolence is true justice, which is impossible when you&#039;re continually at each other&#039;s throats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, the goal of nonviolence is true justice, which is impossible when you&#39;re continually at each other&#39;s throats.</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82533</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82533</guid>
		<description>I thought the goal of nonviolence was less violence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the goal of nonviolence was less violence.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueDeacon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82523</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueDeacon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jan 2009 00:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82523</guid>
		<description>Actually, this isn&#039;t entirely true.  Paul talks about government being divinely sanctioned (and he was specifically referring to Rome, which was despised) and having the ability and responsibility to bear the sword.  Sometimes justice needs to be backed up with force.  That said, nonviolence challenges the powers-that-be when they overstep their God-given authority or otherwise defend unjust laws or policies by refusing to cooperate with them, but MLK Jr. had enough respect for the concept of law that he was willing to accept the penalty for breaking it.  That is why people died during demonstrations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, this isn&#39;t entirely true.  Paul talks about government being divinely sanctioned (and he was specifically referring to Rome, which was despised) and having the ability and responsibility to bear the sword.  Sometimes justice needs to be backed up with force.  That said, nonviolence challenges the powers-that-be when they overstep their God-given authority or otherwise defend unjust laws or policies by refusing to cooperate with them, but MLK Jr. had enough respect for the concept of law that he was willing to accept the penalty for breaking it.  That is why people died during demonstrations.</p>
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		<title>By: PASTOR JEFF</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82504</link>
		<dc:creator>PASTOR JEFF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:35:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82504</guid>
		<description>&quot;As for not having a church, isn&#039;t this sort of a church meeting when people get together on a blog to focus on God?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;No.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As for not having a church, isn&#39;t this sort of a church meeting when people get together on a blog to focus on God?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.</p>
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		<title>By: Maani</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82503</link>
		<dc:creator>Maani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82503</guid>
		<description>A few random comments.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Electriclady: There would seem to be a difference between &quot;worshipping&quot; Jesus and &quot;honoring&quot; His sacrifice.  As someone else pointed out, He did say, &quot;I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.&quot;  That is why we pray TO the Father, but THROUGH Christ.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Scat:  I agree with your interpretation of non-violence extending even to self-protection and protection of family, as hard as that is for most to comprehend.   Despite comments here to the contrary, I doubt anyone would have expected Jesus to pick up a sword even if Mary was being threatened.  (Indeed, not only did He specifically tell Peter that &quot;those who take the sword shall perish by the sword,&quot; but He also restored the ear of the centurion who was injured.  Nor would Gandhi have &quot;aken up the sword&quot; under any circumstance, even for self-protection or the proteection of his family.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;hammerud:  Although I agree with your Scriptural clarifications of some of electriclady&#039;s comments, I believe you err in two regards.  First, Jesus&#039; comment about &quot;every jot and tittle&quot; did not refer to whether some Scripture is interpretive, metaphorical or allegorical.  It is.  That does not mean Scripture as a whole becomes &quot;mushy.&quot;  And although I also accept Jesus&#039; statement about &quot;the way, the truth and the life&quot; as literal, Scat is correct that it is just as important (if not moreso) that we understand that &quot;Put another way, to believe in him is to live according to his teachings.&quot;  That is why we are called to live &quot;Christ-like lives.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I also disagree with your interpretations of Luke 22:36-38 and Luke 11:21.  Re the first, taken in context, Jesus is speaking primarily to Peter about Peter&#039;s later &quot;betrayal&quot; (denying Jesus three times).  It is in THIS context that he talks about &quot;selling his garment&quot; and buying a sword.  Because it is Peter who uses that sword to cut off the ear of the centurion, this giving Jesus the opportunity to teach the &quot;he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.&quot;  Thus, Jesus &quot;suggestion&quot; that Peter &quot;sell his garment&quot; and get a sword was stated in light of future events that only Jesus could see.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Similarly, re Luke 11:21, the context is the accusation that Jesus must be a devil because He casts out devils, which leads to His famous comment that &quot;If Satan be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand.&quot;  He then speaks of how others cast out devils, and how He does it.  The remainder of this passage is: &quot;And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out?  Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.&quot;  Thus, the context is not &quot;protection of goods&quot;; that is simply being used as a metaphor.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Re, &quot;[Jesus] recognized that this is an evil world, with real dangers. That is why we have police and a military,&quot; I would actually warn you here that this is an incredibly dangerous comment.  The &quot;world systems&quot; are not of God, they are of Satan.  Thus, those things that the &quot;world systems&quot; spawn - including police and the military - are NOT of God.  Does this mean we do not need &quot;law and order&quot; in order to avoid &quot;chaos?&quot;  No.  But we only need that law and order BECAUSE Satan has set up the world systems as he did.  But do not confuse this with &quot;God&#039;s plan&quot;; as so many have commented here, Jesus&#039; ministry was based on love, peace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth.  NONE of these leave room for violence, war, etc.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It is important that we not do as the so-called &quot;Christian Right,&quot; taking Scripture out of context to support a particular interpretation.  Scripture must always be read in context - i.e., what came immediately before, and what comes immediately after.  Otherwise, we end up &quot;cherry-picking&quot; rather than seeing the deeper, broader truth behind Scripture.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, while you are correct that there are &quot;good&quot; churches and &quot;bad&quot; churches, as with other here I reject the majority of the mainstream, organized, hierarchical, capital-C Church.  There is an old saying: &quot;Religion is about laws, rules and behavior.  Faith is about a relationship with God and Christ.&quot;  From what I have seen the broader capital-C Church is more involved with the former - occasionally to the near exclusion of the latter.  One does not need to &quot;forsake the assembling of yourselves together&quot;; there are home churches and community churches that do a far better job of nurturing a relationship with God and Christ than the mainstream churches tend to do.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Finally, re applying all this to the Gaza situation, I think it is instructive to note that Gandhi and his followers liberated a country of 350 million people from the grip of the mightiest military power in the world at the time - without firing a single shot or engaging in any violence.  Certainly if they could do this for a country of 350 million, the Palestinians could do it for a population of 1.5 million.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few random comments.</p>
<p>Electriclady: There would seem to be a difference between &#8220;worshipping&#8221; Jesus and &#8220;honoring&#8221; His sacrifice.  As someone else pointed out, He did say, &#8220;I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me.&#8221;  That is why we pray TO the Father, but THROUGH Christ.</p>
<p>Scat:  I agree with your interpretation of non-violence extending even to self-protection and protection of family, as hard as that is for most to comprehend.   Despite comments here to the contrary, I doubt anyone would have expected Jesus to pick up a sword even if Mary was being threatened.  (Indeed, not only did He specifically tell Peter that &#8220;those who take the sword shall perish by the sword,&#8221; but He also restored the ear of the centurion who was injured.  Nor would Gandhi have &#8220;aken up the sword&#8221; under any circumstance, even for self-protection or the proteection of his family.</p>
<p>hammerud:  Although I agree with your Scriptural clarifications of some of electriclady&#39;s comments, I believe you err in two regards.  First, Jesus&#39; comment about &#8220;every jot and tittle&#8221; did not refer to whether some Scripture is interpretive, metaphorical or allegorical.  It is.  That does not mean Scripture as a whole becomes &#8220;mushy.&#8221;  And although I also accept Jesus&#39; statement about &#8220;the way, the truth and the life&#8221; as literal, Scat is correct that it is just as important (if not moreso) that we understand that &#8220;Put another way, to believe in him is to live according to his teachings.&#8221;  That is why we are called to live &#8220;Christ-like lives.&#8221;</p>
<p>I also disagree with your interpretations of Luke 22:36-38 and Luke 11:21.  Re the first, taken in context, Jesus is speaking primarily to Peter about Peter&#39;s later &#8220;betrayal&#8221; (denying Jesus three times).  It is in THIS context that he talks about &#8220;selling his garment&#8221; and buying a sword.  Because it is Peter who uses that sword to cut off the ear of the centurion, this giving Jesus the opportunity to teach the &#8220;he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.&#8221;  Thus, Jesus &#8220;suggestion&#8221; that Peter &#8220;sell his garment&#8221; and get a sword was stated in light of future events that only Jesus could see.</p>
<p>Similarly, re Luke 11:21, the context is the accusation that Jesus must be a devil because He casts out devils, which leads to His famous comment that &#8220;If Satan be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand.&#8221;  He then speaks of how others cast out devils, and how He does it.  The remainder of this passage is: &#8220;And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out?  Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.&#8221;  Thus, the context is not &#8220;protection of goods&#8221;; that is simply being used as a metaphor.</p>
<p>Re, &#8220;[Jesus] recognized that this is an evil world, with real dangers. That is why we have police and a military,&#8221; I would actually warn you here that this is an incredibly dangerous comment.  The &#8220;world systems&#8221; are not of God, they are of Satan.  Thus, those things that the &#8220;world systems&#8221; spawn &#8211; including police and the military &#8211; are NOT of God.  Does this mean we do not need &#8220;law and order&#8221; in order to avoid &#8220;chaos?&#8221;  No.  But we only need that law and order BECAUSE Satan has set up the world systems as he did.  But do not confuse this with &#8220;God&#39;s plan&#8221;; as so many have commented here, Jesus&#39; ministry was based on love, peace, humility, forgiveness, compassion, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth.  NONE of these leave room for violence, war, etc.</p>
<p>It is important that we not do as the so-called &#8220;Christian Right,&#8221; taking Scripture out of context to support a particular interpretation.  Scripture must always be read in context &#8211; i.e., what came immediately before, and what comes immediately after.  Otherwise, we end up &#8220;cherry-picking&#8221; rather than seeing the deeper, broader truth behind Scripture.</p>
<p>Also, while you are correct that there are &#8220;good&#8221; churches and &#8220;bad&#8221; churches, as with other here I reject the majority of the mainstream, organized, hierarchical, capital-C Church.  There is an old saying: &#8220;Religion is about laws, rules and behavior.  Faith is about a relationship with God and Christ.&#8221;  From what I have seen the broader capital-C Church is more involved with the former &#8211; occasionally to the near exclusion of the latter.  One does not need to &#8220;forsake the assembling of yourselves together&#8221;; there are home churches and community churches that do a far better job of nurturing a relationship with God and Christ than the mainstream churches tend to do.</p>
<p>Finally, re applying all this to the Gaza situation, I think it is instructive to note that Gandhi and his followers liberated a country of 350 million people from the grip of the mightiest military power in the world at the time &#8211; without firing a single shot or engaging in any violence.  Certainly if they could do this for a country of 350 million, the Palestinians could do it for a population of 1.5 million.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: hammerud</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82501</link>
		<dc:creator>hammerud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82501</guid>
		<description>scat -  You say &quot;Too often we forget that he spoke in metaphors and to attach too much importance to the words...&quot; The problem when you go down this path is that Scripture then ceases to be a solid foundation of truth.  It all becomes mushy, and the frame of reference for discerning what is and what is not true erodes.  Jesus said that &quot;the Scriptures cannot be broken...&quot;  and that every &quot;jot and title&quot; will be fulfilled.  When Paul spoke to the Bereans, he commended them because they &quot;searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.&quot;  Acts 17:11  In other words, the Scriptures were a solid frame of reference that provided a basis for assessing whether something that is said is true or false. Electriclady, who I believe is a very sincere person, made a lot of statements that quite frankly do not track with Scripture, and I pointed some of those things out. You make statements about pacifism.  I look at such statements in light of Scripture. This is a fallen world. There is danger and evil. God does not expect us to hide our heads in the sand.  I guarantee if someone was threatening my family, I would protect them.  In Luke 22:36-38, Jesus said &quot;.... he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one...&quot;  Jesus was thinking of the sword in the context of protection, not aggression.  He recognized that this is an evil world, with real dangers.  That is why we have police and a military.  Another verse is  Luke 11:21 where it mentions &quot;a strong man armed keeps his goods.&quot; The bottom line here is that extreme pacifism does not track with God&#039;s Word, which recognizes the dangers, and need for personal protection, within a fallen world.  My final point is that Jesus Christ was God, the Creator. Tons of verses on that.  As I said in a previous response, Psalm 145 says, &quot;God&#039;s greatness is unsearchable,&quot; so when you say &quot;I don&#039;t think anyone will really ever understand just what Jesus was in the sense of being divine&quot; you make a good point, but we need to understand that He was God. That understanding is a fundamental point as to whether a person is truly a Christian or not.  The &quot;doctrine of Christ&quot; has to do with who Christ was and what He did.  Scripture states that  &quot;whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.&quot; 2 Jn 9  So we need to understand that, as God, He was able to pay for our sin against God.  If He was anything less than God, His sacrifice for sin against God would have been insufficient.  That is why it says in Hebrews, &quot;... it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin.&quot;  &lt;br&gt;Also, regarding church attendance, the Hebrews verse I quoted earlier is clear. There are bad churches, no doubt; but there are good ones.  I go to a good one. Check out the website of the one I go to in Virginia -- www. &lt;a href=&quot;http://calvarybaptistonline.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;calvarybaptistonline.org&lt;/a&gt; Those who go there do not think they are special or better than anyone. We all are sinners saved by grace.  &lt;br&gt; &lt;br&gt;Anyway, I really appreciate your post and hearing your thoughts.  I felt a need to share my thoughts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>scat &#8211;  You say &#8220;Too often we forget that he spoke in metaphors and to attach too much importance to the words&#8230;&#8221; The problem when you go down this path is that Scripture then ceases to be a solid foundation of truth.  It all becomes mushy, and the frame of reference for discerning what is and what is not true erodes.  Jesus said that &#8220;the Scriptures cannot be broken&#8230;&#8221;  and that every &#8220;jot and title&#8221; will be fulfilled.  When Paul spoke to the Bereans, he commended them because they &#8220;searched the Scriptures to see whether those things were so.&#8221;  Acts 17:11  In other words, the Scriptures were a solid frame of reference that provided a basis for assessing whether something that is said is true or false. Electriclady, who I believe is a very sincere person, made a lot of statements that quite frankly do not track with Scripture, and I pointed some of those things out. You make statements about pacifism.  I look at such statements in light of Scripture. This is a fallen world. There is danger and evil. God does not expect us to hide our heads in the sand.  I guarantee if someone was threatening my family, I would protect them.  In Luke 22:36-38, Jesus said &#8220;&#8230;. he that has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one&#8230;&#8221;  Jesus was thinking of the sword in the context of protection, not aggression.  He recognized that this is an evil world, with real dangers.  That is why we have police and a military.  Another verse is  Luke 11:21 where it mentions &#8220;a strong man armed keeps his goods.&#8221; The bottom line here is that extreme pacifism does not track with God&#39;s Word, which recognizes the dangers, and need for personal protection, within a fallen world.  My final point is that Jesus Christ was God, the Creator. Tons of verses on that.  As I said in a previous response, Psalm 145 says, &#8220;God&#39;s greatness is unsearchable,&#8221; so when you say &#8220;I don&#39;t think anyone will really ever understand just what Jesus was in the sense of being divine&#8221; you make a good point, but we need to understand that He was God. That understanding is a fundamental point as to whether a person is truly a Christian or not.  The &#8220;doctrine of Christ&#8221; has to do with who Christ was and what He did.  Scripture states that  &#8220;whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.&#8221; 2 Jn 9  So we need to understand that, as God, He was able to pay for our sin against God.  If He was anything less than God, His sacrifice for sin against God would have been insufficient.  That is why it says in Hebrews, &#8220;&#8230; it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sin.&#8221;  <br />Also, regarding church attendance, the Hebrews verse I quoted earlier is clear. There are bad churches, no doubt; but there are good ones.  I go to a good one. Check out the website of the one I go to in Virginia &#8212; www. <a href="http://calvarybaptistonline.org" rel="nofollow">calvarybaptistonline.org</a> Those who go there do not think they are special or better than anyone. We all are sinners saved by grace.  </p>
<p>Anyway, I really appreciate your post and hearing your thoughts.  I felt a need to share my thoughts.</p>
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		<title>By: martingugino</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82492</link>
		<dc:creator>martingugino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82492</guid>
		<description>I find that fascinating as well - that so many Christians, whom I believe to be sincere believers, don&#039;t mind killing the enemy. At all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find that fascinating as well &#8211; that so many Christians, whom I believe to be sincere believers, don&#39;t mind killing the enemy. At all.</p>
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		<title>By: scat</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82479</link>
		<dc:creator>scat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82479</guid>
		<description>Thank you electric lady for taking the time to articulate so many truths that I have been seeking. Like many others here I consider myself a Christian, since that is the basis of my beliefs, but I don&#039;t affiliate with any church. I have an extreme aversion to the man-made rules imposed on Christianity, sine they often become the dominant thought.&lt;br&gt;I have struggled with the concept of being a pacifist. Non-pacifists always come up with the argument that you sometimes have to become violent to protect yourself or your family or your community. I finally rejected that idea since I believe that it is not a sufficient reason to go against God&#039;s will. That it demonstrates an ultimate lack of trust in God to think you have to violate his will to do what you decide is right. True pacifists often die and if you are going to trust in God and do his will, you must accept that and remember that we are all going to die, it&#039;s only a question of the circumstances.Having accepted that, living everyday life by God&#039;s will has become reamarkably simple.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I don&#039;t think anyone will really ever understand just what Jesuswas in the sense of being &quot;divine&quot; or what it was about him that set him apart.  Too often we forget that he spoke in metaphors and to attach too much importance to the words while ignoring the lesson or idea he was trying to describe leads nowhere. Personally, I think when he said that he was the way, the truth ,etc, he was not requiring personal worship of himself. I think he was expressing the idea that the way of life, the way of being and living in the world he was teaching was the only path to God.  Put another way, to believe in him is to live according to his teachings. He demonstrated this by his non-violent acceptance of his fate as God&#039;s will. For those reasons I think a persons who never heard of Jesus Christ could still be called a Christian if they lived their lives consistent with Christ&#039;s teachings. I think God is big enough and clever enough to give every human born the opportunity to choose living according to God&#039;s will.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for not having a church, isn&#039;t this sort of a  church meeting when people get together on a blog to focus on God?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you electric lady for taking the time to articulate so many truths that I have been seeking. Like many others here I consider myself a Christian, since that is the basis of my beliefs, but I don&#39;t affiliate with any church. I have an extreme aversion to the man-made rules imposed on Christianity, sine they often become the dominant thought.<br />I have struggled with the concept of being a pacifist. Non-pacifists always come up with the argument that you sometimes have to become violent to protect yourself or your family or your community. I finally rejected that idea since I believe that it is not a sufficient reason to go against God&#39;s will. That it demonstrates an ultimate lack of trust in God to think you have to violate his will to do what you decide is right. True pacifists often die and if you are going to trust in God and do his will, you must accept that and remember that we are all going to die, it&#39;s only a question of the circumstances.Having accepted that, living everyday life by God&#39;s will has become reamarkably simple.</p>
<p>I don&#39;t think anyone will really ever understand just what Jesuswas in the sense of being &#8220;divine&#8221; or what it was about him that set him apart.  Too often we forget that he spoke in metaphors and to attach too much importance to the words while ignoring the lesson or idea he was trying to describe leads nowhere. Personally, I think when he said that he was the way, the truth ,etc, he was not requiring personal worship of himself. I think he was expressing the idea that the way of life, the way of being and living in the world he was teaching was the only path to God.  Put another way, to believe in him is to live according to his teachings. He demonstrated this by his non-violent acceptance of his fate as God&#39;s will. For those reasons I think a persons who never heard of Jesus Christ could still be called a Christian if they lived their lives consistent with Christ&#39;s teachings. I think God is big enough and clever enough to give every human born the opportunity to choose living according to God&#39;s will.</p>
<p>As for not having a church, isn&#39;t this sort of a  church meeting when people get together on a blog to focus on God?</p>
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		<title>By: hammerud</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/01/08/nonviolence-begets-nonviolence/comment-page-1/#comment-82452</link>
		<dc:creator>hammerud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=5089#comment-82452</guid>
		<description>The only problem with leaving church is that it says in Hebrews &quot;Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as is the manner of some...&quot;  Although the church is full of all sorts of faulty people like me, I don&#039;t feel comfortable with disregarding such a clear statement.  Attending church would be an opportunity to &quot;let your light shine.&quot; Maybe some of the hypocrites there would be changed by observing Christians who were not hypocrites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only problem with leaving church is that it says in Hebrews &#8220;Do not forsake the assembling of yourselves together, as is the manner of some&#8230;&#8221;  Although the church is full of all sorts of faulty people like me, I don&#39;t feel comfortable with disregarding such a clear statement.  Attending church would be an opportunity to &#8220;let your light shine.&#8221; Maybe some of the hypocrites there would be changed by observing Christians who were not hypocrites.</p>
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