When Bush stated the same it was greeted with liar, etc . I totally agree with treating the prisoners as POWS , obeying the geneva Convention, and not the way the last Administration has . But I believe Obama has the smarts and ability to change course on certain issues when he sees all of the situation , and not just through an idealogical lens .

I understand your frustration. The language we use and terminalogy appears to be different here then what we are use to . If I said I was pro gay most would expect me to be pro marriage rights for gay people . To say I was pro life one would expect I would support pro life issues , such as Supreme Court Justices that support a more literal understanding of the Constitution.

Here it means I am pro life , after a discussion it turns out it on the list of importance under CSI reruns It is used politically to attract Evangelical voters in my opinion , when push comes to shove it means little .

Unfortunately . Just think If President Obama was pro life , one he would never have gotten the Democratic Party denomination , but wow , I would have voted for him .

I guess I don't understand enough , and I thank God for not being able to .
Interestingly thoughtFundamentalism is often ridiculed on these pages .
If you ask me , no one does so i will give my two cents , its extremism that is the problem . Leting the Terrorists go and be released so they can go torture and murder others again is as wrong as torture .

In our society, it's no longer acceptable for a husband to brutalize his wife and children, as was his accepted perogative not so long ago. Even police officers lose their right to carry firearms if they do so, and long-term legal immigrants are deported if they violate this changed standard.

This means that change is not impossible; and that we corporately can learn to change our behavior, to the extent that we recognize that some of our temptations are wrong and can be expected not to act them out.

If it can happen at the heart of a human society, the family, this offers the probability that if the effort is made, it can extend from your house, to the White House and beyond.

We can have a human society where the Geneva Convention and the treaties against torture are not called “quaint” artifacts that have become obsolete and are thrown on to the garbage heap by those seeking to respond to serious events by jettisoning all morality and progress.

If we can make extraordinary progress intellectually and technologically – thought impossible by some theologians and philosophers for millenia – then it is not just possible, but probable, that we can make similar advances ethically.

Mankind will continue to have the same broken propensities – but we can together finally recognize that we don't have to give into all our bad impulses most of the time nor deify them, nor see what is clearly recognized as individual sin somehow transmuted into good when ordered by powerful politicians.

If this is not so, then we certainly have no grounds for preferring any particular bvehavior over any other, or any particular claim to defend our own over anyone else's, except on the same grounds – “I, me, mine.”

And in that case, there won't even be civilization, just a helter-skelter of everyone against all in selfish pursuit of getting whatever they can, however they can, for only self.

In some ways, that is where we have been going and what is bringing our financial world down.

As I read history, mankind's character has remained pretty consistent. Affluence might have given some of us a certain patina of civilized behavior. Underneath it all, when it comes down to us or them, you or me, aren't we “barbarians?

“I will not exaggerate others' beliefs nor make unfounded prejudicial assumptions based on labels, categories, or stereotypes. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt.” Comment Code of Conduct

The end justify the means.

Think carefully before you answer.

We are exposed for all to see that our commitment to human rights has been nothing but convenient hypocrisy. It applies to others, not to us, superior human beings that we are.

Well. we've just proven we have no more scruples than anyone else. The sad thing is, now the brutalized have nowhere to turn. Before, you could shame the dictators by appealing that there was one nation that stood for law and human rights.

Now, there's no appeal to anyone. Except maybe God, if He's still around to care.

I don't think any clueless foreigner threatening you with a gun is someone you want to trust in a war zone.

Too often, an observer from space would note that just the same appeals to religion to justify violence as redemptive are made on all sides of the human family – which makes one think that it is the “War Jesus” crowd are the ones who are truly ecumenical and syncretic in their religion.

Although, some of the most supportive people of our policy and use of torture seem to be evangelical Americans, in my own observation. This has always interested me, because I see the Christian faith and torture as so radically opposed to one another.

On the other hand, I would like to hear a “Christian” defend torture?

Really? Do you know them that well? Do you really feel the evil in our world is so black and white? Do you stop to think about why they hate us?

When we talk about “those” people and group them together and make general statements about them, we simplify them, and take their humanity away. We make it into a game of us verses them, and put God on our side. We fail to see that we are all human beings, and our mission as followers of Jesus is love all human beings and show them Jesus. As Walter Wink said, in times of conflict, we often fail to see the “evil” in ourselves, and fail to see God in our enemy.

I would argue that the US using ANY for of torture actually makes us less safe. It stirs up more anger against us in the MIddle East, which certainly doesn't hurt the recruiting the terrorists.

It always amazes me that people in our country who claim to hold human life sacred and care so much about people so quickly disregard that claim in the face of fear. We, as Christians, must care about ALL people, not just those in our own country. The use of torture, I believe, will hurt America far more than it will help.

How about another; “the end justifies the means”?

I'm wondering how Obama's pragmatism will play out in its application? And on another level, not referring to Obama, just how “pragmatic” should a follower of the teachings of Christ be?

After all, lying and deception can make you wealthy or can get you elected?