Comments on: Does Grace Abound to the Chief of Torturers?

By: jonabark

jonabark — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 06:10:22 +0000

To me grace is either an operative and guiding spirit or it is only a potential that is most being actively ignored. There are many idolatrous notions proposing to be of God, but the fruit of the spirit is what it is and does not include dishonesty , or violence, or the love of money.
Mercy is better than vengeance and we must respect and seek that of God in all humans of all faiths or of no faith. We must know our own failures and selfishness. But I believe that we need a legal framework for civil relations that rewards and honors ethical behavior and that warns against sociopathic behavior.

If what x-free said is correct and Duc is actively working for justice perhaps a symbolic house arrest could be arranged so he can continue in good works.

The remainder of my criticism of the original article stands. I am only one voice, but I find the ideas about grace and the comparison of war crimes to be seriously flawed. The questions about punishment and mercy are much more profound and worth consideration.
I hope these thoughts will be considered in the spirit of Iron sharpening Iron.

By: jonabark

jonabark — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 04:10:22 +0000

By: hammerud

hammerud — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:42:15 +0000

Thanks for the info.

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:20:14 +0000

My experience (the most notable one as pertains to this discussion) relates to a woman that I have no doubt was a follower of Christ (to the extent that I can judge that all), nor that she was demon-possessed, as we spent an all night exorcism with her on a few of the demons, and I personally interacted with them, along with others.

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:19:00 +0000

Undergrad at Obama's school, Occidental; grad at Fuller. (That should help you pigeon-hole me

By: squeaky

squeaky — Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:06:18 +0000

Just to add a cents in here…I too have known a person who was a professed Christian but who also was very possibly demon-possessed.

However, that said, I'm not at all convinced she didn't have a serious mental disorder, which begs the question of where is that line between mental disorder and actual demon possession? Which can then go on to beg many other questions that I won't beg at this time…

By: hammerud

hammerud — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:50:12 +0000

Thanks for the reply. What is your background educationally? Just
curious. We are looking at things from different foundations.

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:40:37 +0000

In regards to demon possession, I'm only speaking in regards to personal experience, as I mentioned above. I'll leave it to God to work out the metaphysics.

A kinship culture is one of the four uber-culture types in the world. If you are typical of those who post here, you are not from it, but rather an Industrial Culture, and, again, if you are typical, you are from the most individualistic culture on the planet- the American one. No that there's anything wrong with that. But a kinship society, like most of the Biblical cultures, does not have this notion of the individual, this “I think therefore I am” Cartesian paradigm. Rather, every person in the group is the embodiment of the group and carries the group with them wherever they go. The stories about Adam and Eve were written and told in this framework, which made complete sense within the kinship society- but are difficult for members of an Industrial Culture like that of America to wrap their heads around. Thus it is not that since everybody has inherited original sin, we are all therefore representatives of the group, but rather the inverse- we are all representatives of the group (or better, the embodiment), and therefore the inheritance of original sin is possible. (I can only say how the concept makes sense within a kinship society and the original culture it was written to. I can't begin to guess how it that application can be interpreted within an Industrial society.)

By: hammerud

hammerud — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:30:25 +0000

I understand that there is disagreement among Christians about all sorts of things, but I the problem I have with Christians being demon possessed is that Satan or a demon would have to “bind God,” (Mark 3:27), and that is not possible. Not sure what you mean by the “kinship culture” and “embodiment of the group” thing. I guess, in the latter, you mean that since everybody has inherited original sin, we all are representative of the group, but I am not sure what the point is.

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:08:30 +0000

That would be an incorrect inference. I never suggested that God is everything. Rather the clear record of scripture is that he is *in* everything. Yes, God is part of everything, but that in no way suggests that anything is okay. Yes, God is loving and embraces everyone, but that in no way suggests he embraces everything.

Your suggestion about someone being possessed or not by satan after they have become committed to Christ is a different matter, and one in which honest Christians disagree. I can affirm that I have had friends who were believers and were also demon possessed.

Within the culture of the time, it is not at all unfair to have original sin through Adam, for, as Paul points out, these are kinship cultures in which there are no individuals, but rather any one person is not the representative of the group but rather the embodiment of the group.

By: hammerud

hammerud — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 22:56:13 +0000

Palosaari -- I agree with you in this sense: the Holy Spirit interacts
with all human beings, searching the hearts, and Jesus Christ "holds
all things together and in their place," and man is created in the
image of God. So, in that sense God is dealing with everybody, and He
holds every atom and molecule in the universe in place, and man is a
unique cretion. But I infer from what you wrote that you look at
things with some sort of an Eastern-religion-like idea that God is in
everything and everything is God; and the idea that flows from that is
that everything and everybody is OK because God is part of it all in
some redemptive sense -- we all have this loving God who just embraces
everyone and everything. If that is the essence of what you mean then
I'm not sure how you explain the Scriptures I referred to in my first
response where God says, "depart from me for I never knew
you" (Matthew 7:23) and the other Scripture, which says, "whoever
does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." (Romans 8:9) I
also did not mean to imply that I believe Satan is in all of us.
Scripture teaches that we have fallen (sinful) natures, and that we
are sinners, but once indwelt by the Spirit of Christ, a person cannot
be indwelt by Satan or his demons -- God and Satan cannot occupy the
same temple. However, Satanic or demonic possession of unsaved people
is a possibility. Scripture also teaches that good works are
extremely important, but they are not the basis for our standing with
God. The finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross is the basis of
acceptance. Now, having received the free (but infinitely expensive)
Gift of salvation, the only reasonable response to that would be to
submit myself to God in this world so that He can work thru me to
accomplish works that are "wrought in Him" and will withstand the test
of fire mentioned in 1 Cor 3. Notice in verse 15 of Chapter 3 that
even if all of the works are burned up, the person is saved. The
reason is that the basis of acceptance is wholly Christ. Regarding
original sin: we all have inherited it through our connection to Adam,
and some may consider that unfair because we had nothing to do with
Adam. And we inherit condemnation through Adam. But look at the
other side of the coin: God grants us full acceptance thru Christ as a
free Gift, and we had nothing to do with Christ. (Check out Romans
5:18,19) He simply asks us to place our trust in Him, turning away
from any trust in human merit, which is the essence of every false
religion; and every religion apart from the gospel is false. Jesus in
John 14:6 makes that point when He says, "I am the way, the truth, and
the life, no man comes to the Father, but by me. I decided I needed
to respond to statements in this blog every once in awhile, because I
found out that if you don't, evidently you get timed out or
something. Anyway, thanks for giving me something to respond to.

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:59:53 +0000

On the contrary, nanini, naninina- God is everywhere, in everything. This is a foundational principle of Christianity. (Admittedly, if you are from a different religion, that is not necessarily the case.) Furthermore, humans are unique in being created in God's image. Therefore, truly, and most truly for humans, there is that of God in everyone.

I also agree with your implication above, that there is that of Satan in all of us too. But that is so well-known, it doesn't go far in helping us learn to reverence all human life, as much as the realization that there is that of God in everyone.

As the Pope Urban (Alec Guiness) of Brother Sun Sister Moon said, too often in our rush to affirm original sin, we forget also of original grace.

But I would counsel you, that your standing with God needs to be based on more than "only" what he did for you on the cross. It also needs to be based on a living relationship with him.

By: hammerud

hammerud — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:49:37 +0000

God is not in everyone. God created everyone, but He is not in everyone. Romans 8 says that unless a person has the Spirit of Christ he is none of his. Also, in the gospels there is a picture of the judgment and people were saying (paraphrased), “Lord, we did this in your name and that in your name,” and the response of God is “depart from me for I never knew you.” Jesus is the only way, but the Way is available to everyone, even to this Khmer Rouge torturer, Duch. Isaiah says, “Come now and let us reason together saith the Lord, though your sins be as scarlet they shall be white as snow and though they be red as crimson, they shall be as wool.” One person has pointed out (and I agree) that the potential to do what these torturers did abides in every one of us. Whether Duch actually responds to God's offer of forgiveness thru Christ can only be truly ascertained by Christ, who “judges the secrets of the heart.” My personal standing with God is based ONLY on what He did for me on the cross. In response to that I try to walk with Him.

By: xfree9

xfree9 — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 01:01:30 +0000

If Duch had simply converted and “felt sorry” for his sins, I'd agree. But apparently his life is dedicated to working against new forms of injustice. To some degree, this is more valuable to society.

But the other side of me says, “Sure, if he's guilty, which he himself says he is, then he should pay the penalty.”

By: JoannaCW

JoannaCW — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 00:02:18 +0000

I think perhaps the affirmation that God's grace is still present in those who have done horrible things is linked with the recognition that these people are not fundamentally different from us–that the potential for evil and destruction, and for goodness and healing, are always present in all of us. I think this recogniton may be a necessary part of 'protecting ourselves from criminal violence”.

By: jonabark

jonabark — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 06:36:40 +0000

The comparison that says one person's mass murder is worse than that of another is neither Biblical or meaningful. Evil has little to do with numbers. At least in Cambodia they have moved to some trials and they are holding key leaders to account. In the US the war criminals are given money and places of prestige by many.

Americans who planned and participated in the invasion and slaughter of a million Iraqis are no better or worse than the Cambodians. I think this article is silly and does not face honestly the realities it approaches. Grace is only active in the soul that receives it. Society must learn to protect itself from criminal violence. That includes religious ideas that justify war. War is not God's idea. As far as reincarnation and Buddhism the comments are shallow and say nothing of significance about Buddhism, which is as culturally varied as Christianity.

If Duch is truly sorry and recognizes the weight of his crimes I don't think it unreasonable that he would find some honor in imprisonment to serve as a warning to those who seek power by violence or collaborate with it..

By: Palosaari

Palosaari — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 05:08:10 +0000

Well said. I have a bumper sticker on my car: “There is that of God in everyone. Even George Bush. Even Osama bin Laden.” Grace abounds to all, no matter what they have done- even myself. That is not an excuse, nor does it cease to call evil evil. It simply claims that Grace is greater than Evil.

By: xfree9

xfree9 — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 03:17:03 +0000

I've been to Cambodia, and I've seen the Killing Fields in person. It is sobering, and it is baffling to me that by Western justice standards, justice hasn't prevailed. Punishment/discipline for crimes against humanity were not paid for. The government-run schools there are just now in the past year beginning to teach their history to the children! The whole society has sort of a Post-traumatic stress syndrome.

Because most Cambodians are Buddhist, much of what happened gets blamed on “We had a bad previous life.” Imagine, blaming yourself and/or your family heritage for the atrocities! So when the Khmer Rouge was over and all was said and done, they simply went back to living their lives as usual…. well, as “usual” as can be after such trauma.

The book “Tears of My Soul” is a very good 150-page book written by one of the survivors; it is graphic enough to describe what happened, but well worth the read. It has an excellent chapter in the end about forgiveness.

By: SisterMarie

SisterMarie — Sat, 07 Mar 2009 02:51:16 +0000

“I have to admit that I’m on the fence about this one.”

There is no fence for such horrific crimes. If you have erected one in your mind, then you have a skewed vision of morality.