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	<title>Comments on: The Real History of &#8216;Saint Patrick&#8217;: The Saint He Wasn&#8217;t, the Man He Was</title>
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	<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/</link>
	<description>A Blog by Jim Wallis and Friends</description>
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		<title>By: Mabon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85426</link>
		<dc:creator>Mabon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Mar 2009 00:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85426</guid>
		<description>The snakes idea comes from the term used for the Druid priests of Ireland and Old England.  They were referred to as &quot;Serpents of Wisdom.&quot;  Yes, St. Pat is held responsible for driving the serpents off the island.  Some accounts in Roman records say that the Druids were massacred at the Isle of Iona, some were exlied to Northern Scotland, but most were probably killed defending their religion against those who would call them heretics.   Like most saints, the killing of non-Christians does not count against one&#039;s sainthood.  As long as the killing is or was in the name of Jesus it is not frowned upon.  Hmmm, I wonder what Jesus would say about that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The snakes idea comes from the term used for the Druid priests of Ireland and Old England.  They were referred to as &#8220;Serpents of Wisdom.&#8221;  Yes, St. Pat is held responsible for driving the serpents off the island.  Some accounts in Roman records say that the Druids were massacred at the Isle of Iona, some were exlied to Northern Scotland, but most were probably killed defending their religion against those who would call them heretics.   Like most saints, the killing of non-Christians does not count against one&#39;s sainthood.  As long as the killing is or was in the name of Jesus it is not frowned upon.  Hmmm, I wonder what Jesus would say about that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: meurig</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85396</link>
		<dc:creator>meurig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 23:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85396</guid>
		<description>Personally I&#039;m grateful to the Catholic church for bringing to our attention the lives of some of the great heroes of the faith in the past.  It&#039;s always good be be able tor read about God transforming people towards greater Christlikeness.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But of course that&#039;s not going to stop me seeing the same thing in heroes that the Catholic church hasn&#039;t honored in this way, whether that&#039;s Wulfstan of Worcester or Conrad Grebel or Dirk Willems or George Fox or John Wesley or Thomas Clarkson or Rhys Howells or whoever.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If Rome&#039;s use of the word saint to mean some saints but not all of them is a stumbling block, it is surely a rather small one that is quite easy to jump over...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;[Btw, I understand that several of the leaders of the Celtic church are recognised as saints by the Orthodox churches but not officially by the Catholic church.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally I&#39;m grateful to the Catholic church for bringing to our attention the lives of some of the great heroes of the faith in the past.  It&#39;s always good be be able tor read about God transforming people towards greater Christlikeness.</p>
<p>But of course that&#39;s not going to stop me seeing the same thing in heroes that the Catholic church hasn&#39;t honored in this way, whether that&#39;s Wulfstan of Worcester or Conrad Grebel or Dirk Willems or George Fox or John Wesley or Thomas Clarkson or Rhys Howells or whoever.</p>
<p>If Rome&#39;s use of the word saint to mean some saints but not all of them is a stumbling block, it is surely a rather small one that is quite easy to jump over&#8230;</p>
<p>[Btw, I understand that several of the leaders of the Celtic church are recognised as saints by the Orthodox churches but not officially by the Catholic church.]</p>
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		<title>By: BuckeyeDon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85224</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckeyeDon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85224</guid>
		<description>...or any weekday, testifying before Congress about the large bonuses they gave out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;or any weekday, testifying before Congress about the large bonuses they gave out.</p>
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		<title>By: SisterMarie</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85223</link>
		<dc:creator>SisterMarie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 12:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85223</guid>
		<description>&quot;But...what about the snakes?&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;They all emigrated to America. you can see them every Sunday by turning on your TV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But&#8230;what about the snakes?&#8221;</p>
<p>They all emigrated to America. you can see them every Sunday by turning on your TV.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe_Allen_Doty</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85218</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe_Allen_Doty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85218</guid>
		<description>CORRECTION HERE: Patrick&#039;s birth place was at &quot;Banna Venta Berniae.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CORRECTION HERE: Patrick&#39;s birth place was at &#8220;Banna Venta Berniae.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: BuckeyeDon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85217</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckeyeDon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85217</guid>
		<description>Yes, God through Jesus Christ makes all who believe on him saints. That&#039;s in the New Testament after all, and all Christians (including Catholics--big &quot;c&quot;) believe that. But individuals who lived noteworthy lives in the faith have always been held up as examples to other believers; this practice has existed since the beginning of the Christian church.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;No religious group makes anyone a saint. God does. But the Christian church can and does honor the memory of individual Christians, just as we do in our own communities and families. One does not have to be Roman Catholic (big &quot;c&quot;) in order to recognize the exemplary lives of many of the saints that they honor, or to try and live by their example. Non-Catholic Christians also have their honored &quot;saints,&quot; even though they may not be given that title officially. Just think of &quot;heroes of the faith&quot; that you may have learned about in Sunday school, or who may have been preached about in your own church. How is that different in substance from calling them saints?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, God through Jesus Christ makes all who believe on him saints. That&#39;s in the New Testament after all, and all Christians (including Catholics&#8211;big &#8220;c&#8221;) believe that. But individuals who lived noteworthy lives in the faith have always been held up as examples to other believers; this practice has existed since the beginning of the Christian church.</p>
<p>No religious group makes anyone a saint. God does. But the Christian church can and does honor the memory of individual Christians, just as we do in our own communities and families. One does not have to be Roman Catholic (big &#8220;c&#8221;) in order to recognize the exemplary lives of many of the saints that they honor, or to try and live by their example. Non-Catholic Christians also have their honored &#8220;saints,&#8221; even though they may not be given that title officially. Just think of &#8220;heroes of the faith&#8221; that you may have learned about in Sunday school, or who may have been preached about in your own church. How is that different in substance from calling them saints?</p>
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		<title>By: neuro_nurse</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85214</link>
		<dc:creator>neuro_nurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:41:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85214</guid>
		<description>If I was dead &amp; canonized I&#039;d be the Patron Saint of Nitpicking.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;See piccolaserenata8&#039;s comment below. St. Patrick was grandfathered in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I was dead &#038; canonized I&#39;d be the Patron Saint of Nitpicking.</p>
<p>See piccolaserenata8&#39;s comment below. St. Patrick was grandfathered in.</p>
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		<title>By: neuro_nurse</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85213</link>
		<dc:creator>neuro_nurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85213</guid>
		<description>“By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God&#039;s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors. &quot;The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church&#039;s history.” Indeed, &quot;holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal.&quot;&lt;br&gt;Catechism of the Catholic Church, 828</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“By canonizing some of the faithful, i.e., by solemnly proclaiming that they practiced heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God&#39;s grace, the Church recognizes the power of the Spirit of holiness within her and sustains the hope of believers by proposing the saints to them as models and intercessors. &#8220;The saints have always been the source and origin of renewal in the most difficult moments in the Church&#39;s history.” Indeed, &#8220;holiness is the hidden source and infallible measure of her apostolic activity and missionary zeal.&#8221;<br />Catechism of the Catholic Church, 828</p>
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		<title>By: Joe_Allen_Doty</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85211</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe_Allen_Doty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85211</guid>
		<description>Patrick&#039;s birth name was &quot;Banna Venta Berniae.&quot; &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;Catholic&quot; (big or little &quot;c&quot;) make people saints usually after they are dead. But, in the 1st Century AD, EVERY person who believed in Jesus was made a saint by salvation in Jesus. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If a person is NOT a saint while they are living, no religious group can make them a saint when they are dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patrick&#39;s birth name was &#8220;Banna Venta Berniae.&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8220;Catholic&#8221; (big or little &#8220;c&#8221;) make people saints usually after they are dead. But, in the 1st Century AD, EVERY person who believed in Jesus was made a saint by salvation in Jesus. </p>
<p>If a person is NOT a saint while they are living, no religious group can make them a saint when they are dead.</p>
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		<title>By: piccolaserenata8</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85210</link>
		<dc:creator>piccolaserenata8</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 21:45:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85210</guid>
		<description>Regarding St. Patrick&#039;s sainthood (yes, he is a saint):&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar20...&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;For most of Christianity’s first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That was the case with St. Patrick, whose feast has not been dropped from the Church’s universal calendar. Because it usually falls on a weekday during Lent, the opening prayer at Mass can be for St. Patrick, but everything else comes from the Lenten weekday prayers. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If St. Patrick is the patron of a diocese or a parish, the feast can be celebrated with greater solemnity. If March 17 falls on a Sunday, the feast is not observed liturgically that year. Patrick’s admirers find many other ways to celebrate!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding St. Patrick&#39;s sainthood (yes, he is a saint):</p>
<p><a href="http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar2001/Wiseman.asp#F4" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar20.." rel="nofollow">http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Mar20..</a>.</p>
<p>&#8220;St. Patrick died around 461 A.D. The first saint formally canonized by the pope—for which we have a record, anyway—was St. Ulrich, bishop of Augsburg, Germany, in the year 993. </p>
<p>For most of Christianity’s first 1,000 years, canonizations were done on the diocesan or regional level. Relatively soon after very holy people died, the local Church affirmed that they could be liturgically celebrated as saints. </p>
<p>That was the case with St. Patrick, whose feast has not been dropped from the Church’s universal calendar. Because it usually falls on a weekday during Lent, the opening prayer at Mass can be for St. Patrick, but everything else comes from the Lenten weekday prayers. </p>
<p>If St. Patrick is the patron of a diocese or a parish, the feast can be celebrated with greater solemnity. If March 17 falls on a Sunday, the feast is not observed liturgically that year. Patrick’s admirers find many other ways to celebrate!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: squeaky</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85206</link>
		<dc:creator>squeaky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85206</guid>
		<description>My guess is that the author thought it was a given, especially with his calling to go into the priesthood and minister to those who originally enslaved him.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;But...what about the snakes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My guess is that the author thought it was a given, especially with his calling to go into the priesthood and minister to those who originally enslaved him.  </p>
<p>But&#8230;what about the snakes?</p>
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		<title>By: BuckeyeDon</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85205</link>
		<dc:creator>BuckeyeDon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 20:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85205</guid>
		<description>I presumed that Jeff meant &quot;canonized&quot; when he wrote &quot;anointed.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s true, isn&#039;t it?--that Patrick was never officially canonized, that is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I presumed that Jeff meant &#8220;canonized&#8221; when he wrote &#8220;anointed.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#39;s true, isn&#39;t it?&#8211;that Patrick was never officially canonized, that is.</p>
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		<title>By: PDBurns</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85202</link>
		<dc:creator>PDBurns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:59:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85202</guid>
		<description>How can we have an article titled &quot;The Real History of ‘Saint Patrick’&quot;  without mentioning anything about him as a Christ-follower?   It seems to me that it was this reality which gave him the strength to be a justice advocate.  A portion of his Breastplate reads: &quot;I arise today Through the strength of Christ’s birth with his baptism, Through the strength of his crucifixion with his burial, Through the strength of his resurrection with his ascension, Through the strength of his descent for the Judgment Day.&quot;   Without Christ St. Patrick is not St. Patrick.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How can we have an article titled &#8220;The Real History of ‘Saint Patrick’&#8221;  without mentioning anything about him as a Christ-follower?   It seems to me that it was this reality which gave him the strength to be a justice advocate.  A portion of his Breastplate reads: &#8220;I arise today Through the strength of Christ’s birth with his baptism, Through the strength of his crucifixion with his burial, Through the strength of his resurrection with his ascension, Through the strength of his descent for the Judgment Day.&#8221;   Without Christ St. Patrick is not St. Patrick.</p>
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		<title>By: neuro_nurse</title>
		<link>http://blog.sojo.net/2009/03/17/patricius-the-saint-he-wasnt-the-man-he-was/comment-page-1/#comment-85201</link>
		<dc:creator>neuro_nurse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:46:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.sojo.net/?p=7082#comment-85201</guid>
		<description>&quot;Patrick wasn’t officially ever anointed a saint&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Saints are not &#039;anointed,&#039; they are canonized - and they are long dead before that process is complete, so you&#039;d have to dig up the body to anoint it. Besides, Catholics anoint the sick, not the dead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Patrick wasn’t officially ever anointed a saint&#8221;</p>
<p>Saints are not &#39;anointed,&#39; they are canonized &#8211; and they are long dead before that process is complete, so you&#39;d have to dig up the body to anoint it. Besides, Catholics anoint the sick, not the dead.</p>
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