Mr Baldelomar

thank you for reading what I wrote and replying to me peacefully...I looked at the link you provided, and I?recognize very well the name of
Peter Gomes as I am a Harvard graduate and was at a luncheon with him once too. I cannot just give in however. I've been in Jesus a long time,
and I fear the coming Judgement. We are talking about very personal things, people's lives and feelings,?not just ideas.?
An oft-quoted Scripture in the?Pentecostal?circles I moved in is 'my people perish for a lack of knowledge'...I think what is going on here (and has been for I don't know how long)
is the ongoing definition and re-definition of reality...take the word 'homophobia' for example...To fear homosexual feelings and behavior is to be?flawed and?troubled. Those who are?'homophobic' need to?look at themselves and work on themselves?and change...
but in older days the field was broader...homosexuals were also thought to?need to look at themselves and change...
where did that old understanding?go? Were we obedient to God to get rid of it...?
And...where has this crescendoing?acceptence of?homosexuality come from??
One place, I think, is from the homosexual movement. One thing that happened is:
In the seventies a group of homosexual activists 'stormed' the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association?and refused to allow the meeting
to go forward until it was agree that the DSM (whatever it was - 1,2, 3 -?the "Bible" of psychiatry) would be changed to no longer define homosexuality as it had been
traditionally classified - as a neurosis - thus changing therapeutic tradition, and, ever so slowly, steadily,?changing the nature of reality as perceived by humanity....

I was in therapy in New York City at the time and another thing that happened then was that the Catholic Schools in the city lost their funding because
they would not allow homosexuals to teach?
my 'shrink' said to me: this is a troubling thing...for the first time a BEHAVIOR has become a?basis for determining
discrimination...

and what about the?key and powerful idea that was?NOT in the mind of my shrink - that homosexuality is an unchangeable fact of a person's nature -
This idea was not generally accepted then - and, I later attended five?Pastoral Christian Ministry conferences led by Leanne Payne and Mario Bergner, centered around the
healing of?homosexuality, and there?one day I heard Mario Bergner say that the supposedly?scientific studies proving the 'nature' argument were not at all scientific and/or
conclusive. But today, it has passed into?general acceptance, at least, it is declared as reality by?people?that side of the controversy...
?
it's Pilate's old question 'what is truth'?

I believe that the option should be 'in the world' that people who experience homosexual feelings and don't want to live homosexual lives can find a way out in Jesus....
it can certainly be a hard road, with much pain...but with God, all things are possible...

Your God is too small...

blessings to all

Andy Pratt

A good response to your comment is found at http://www.holisticthoughts.com/2009/05/homosex...

Nice comment. I used it in my blog, which can be found at http://www.holisticthoughts.com/2009/05/homosex...

Hope you like it. Also, pass it on to others.

Well, obviously, it depends on how one defines "Christianity". From your
comment I'm assuming you would call yourself "evangelical"...? And what are
your views on the Bible? I ask, because I've wondered how evangelicals
understand their own "tradition". Protestants tend to revere the Bible as
"the Word of God", and shy away from "human tradition". And yet, so much of
what they seem to believe actually came out of the tradition of the early
Church (e.g. the Trinity), and not directly from the Bible. And the contents
of the Protestant Bible itself was obviously determined people, and it differs
from both the Catholic and the Orthodox Bibles. Anyway, if you could explain
how you see it.... I'm curious.

quote:
"I realize that some of these feelings are not rational. "

hmmm
LOL - to be honest...I see those who are saying that all 'love' is right and holy as the more subjective.
I made it clear that my conscience is informed by a deep study of scripture, with thought.
I do not even accept all of my own feelings about everything as holy or acceptable. I judge myself.

yes, I read it a few times and felt you were quoting, but you later seemed to be agreeing with what you quoted.
However, I am sorry if I have misconstrued your comment - I admit I found it a bit confusing and ambiguous.

no, Christianity did not.
An institutional counterfeit did, however.

Thank you for your post. Very well written, very well thought out. It really is hard to get beyond sound bytes, to the point where we really understand each other. It usually takes quite a bit of open-minded and open-hearted dialogue. You are a very good example of the kind of person who can have that kind of dialogue. Keep up the good work!

well, have you noticed the way Islamic propagandists use Revolutionary language...anything can be twisted...just an observation...to carry that thread a bit further - are you a supporter of the Palestinian cause? Another knotty question, maybe we should set up a Sojourners discussion about that one....Peace Love and Incredible Healing Power...

Andy

"I cannot comment on your question about two faithful homosexuals...I am not Jesus...ask Him"

Jesus already has answered this question:

"therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

If you have been married 4 times, then perhaps you need to ask Jesus a few questions and look into your own soul, rather than worry about any faithful people who are together. I will pray for you.

God is never against love or justice. God will support those who fight for the liberation of the oppressed.

May God bring you blessings and peace.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I've been trying to put some of this in perspective when it comes to hateful and prejudicial acts. Bullying, name-calling, ridicule, etc. are destructive acts and these acts have been performed on all sides of the homosexuality debate.

However, then we get to people having been murdered. This is at an entirely different level than the other behaviors outlined above. Here is where the acts of one side have completely outweighed the acts of any other sides. Gay people and Straight people who support Gays have been murdered by those who consider themselves Christians who oppose homosexuality. They have been murdered for no other reasons than the fact that they were Gay or have been supportive of Gays. Read the links I put in earlier for the actual facts. I don't know of a single case where a Christian who opposes homosexuality has been murdered for his/her beliefs by either a Gay person or by a Straight person who supports homosexuality. We need to keep this in perspective.

And this disparity hasn't just happened with the Gay/anti-homosexuality issue. In the 1960s and early 1970s, and in years before, many, many Blacks and Whites who supported Black civil rights were murdered by White segregationists. I cannot think of a single case where a White segregationist was murdered by either a Black person or a White person who believed in Black civil rights.

Perhaps the relevant word would consist of "oppose" or "against" as in "oppose homosexuality" or "against racial integration." As opposed to "support Gay people" or "in favor of Black civil rights."

I cannot comment on your question about two faithful homosexuals...I am not Jesus...ask Him

to Mr Wave Tossed and all who cast their lot in with Gene Robinson, etc...

2 Timothy 3 comes to mind

holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power.

I know that Jesus can do anything, heal, deliver, etc...

this whole argument is on a basically human level....if one truly wants to obey God, deny self, walk in righteousness and holiness, the power will be given...

I cannot see how arguing with Christians for the freedom to do homosexual sex acts has anything to do with really wanting to obey God....

If you really can't accept that

My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I can have no quarrel with you, you must face God yourself, but I will not assent to what you are putting forth here....

I CAN WELL understand that there is a lot of pain and suffering and mistreatment of people in the world, that some people are 'different', very sensitive, that there are some very horrible parents in the world and in the Church, and that there is pleasure and comfort in homosexual sex, but if you - instead of seeking true repentance and obedience, no matter what the cost - seek to deaden the sense of personal shame before God for one's behavior, I think your are on a dangerous course, and God may be against you...the course of my life is behind this, but - again - I do not have to live in anyone else's skin....forgive me for whatever you may have against me,

Blessings forever

Andy Pratt
singer-songwriter, 70s Rock Star, Healing Evanglist, married four times....

Thanks for your insights WaveTossed, tossed_salad (I have bookmarked your links and promise to read them seriously) and arthurpena.
Arthurpena-- actually-- believe it or not, I think we are on pretty much the same page on this issue. I too am, as you put it, personally "agnostic" when it comes to the issue of homosexuality in the context of the Christian faith, although my initial post defending the evangelical side may have suggested otherwise. I have heard one argument after another from both sides and have never had the 'big road to Damascus' conversion to either side-- I just simply don't know. While I take a personally neutral stance on the 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of it, I just see sincere people looking from completely different worldviews and frameworks talking past each other.

I've grown up on the evangelical side.. and as much as they drive me nuts sometimes (well, often)... I understand where they're coming from even when I don't necessarily agree with them. And I also think there are some significant theological differences between evangelicals and progressive Christians that may make it far more complex for evangelicals to easily embrace homosexuality the way progressives might-- there are certain theological issues that evangelicals have to work out, which might be complete non-issues to progressives-- and I guess it hurts when progressives just go "well, why can't they just get over it?" Which, aha, sounds very much like those conservatives who look at gay Christians trying to sort out how their sexuality fits in with their faith and just say "Well, it's simple, it's a sin, repent-- and get over it"-- it's a pet peeve of mine regardless of which side it comes from.
There are very many evangelicals who refuse to honestly engage with the issue, -- there are many who sincerely have, and say-- ok, this is what this passage says, in what context do we take it, do we discard it, reject it, simply take it literally as written, or try to work out how it all fits in, and find a way to reconcile certain things within it--- and some people at the end of the day, still come back to a position which falls short of "homosexuality is completely acceptable". The difference is in how they frame and practise this belief. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I believe there is a legitimate place for people who practice their faith according to their convictions which might turn out to be theologically conservative on the homosexuality issue-- such as those who attend Courage (which I think makes a lot more sense than something like Choices, which I am very uncomfortable about). I think there needs to be spaces for people who have been convicted that that is they need to live out their faith in that way-- but I also agree that although on some level their belief concerning that issue may be absolute, they cannot impose it on someone who feels convicted another way. (i.e. not relativism, but pluralism.)

I probably should also clarify that I brought up my friend's story because many people think that if Christians bothered to truly love, set aside preconceptions and get to know gay people as they are, and truly see the way they live and love (i.e. without the ulterior motive of ultimately wanting to 'save' them and convert them to an 'ex gay' lifestyle), then they would be cured of the bigoted theological view that gay sex is unscriptural-- and I know from her experience that this isn't the case at all. This is someone who would have voted *against* Prop 8 were she American-- but still holds to that theological view. I bring this up not to say homosexuality is right or wrong.. I was just saying... what then?

WaveTossed-- I should probably also clarify that my initial comments were in response to an earlier post where you seemed to say-- and I might have jumped the gun a bit and misintepreted you-- that conservative Evangelical Christians may face disagreements and ridicule over their beliefs, but not outright hatred and prejudice. I did point out that what I have seen isn't representative of the whole-- but I have seen and heard much prejudice and hatred against evangelical Christians, not over any issue or conversion attempt-- one would expect disagreements and worse, but just for being Christians. There is a lot of collateral damage in this culture war. That's what I meant when I said both experiences are equally real. However, I made a mistake by not qualifying that I acknowlege that "equally real" does not mean "equal". I truly did not mean to sound as though I place the hurtful misconceptions and stereotypes against Evangelicals on a scale anywhere near the kind of violence perpetrated on gay people... I have been trying to 'stand in the gap' on the issue ever since I went through a period of reading narratives by gay men on the AIDS crisis, and what I read has really stayed with me-- and I am sorry I failed to properly reflect those hard truths I have learnt in what I have written. I know I will never fully understand from just reading a book because I haven't been there... but it is an important issue to me ... and I apologise if I ended up trivialising or invalidating the reality of an entire group's suffering. I find writing about this issue fraught with minefields because it i loaded with so much potential for misunderstanding-- but it is no excuse for me not to look over my words and their meanings carefully.
Further apologies for that long rambling repetitive post.... I'll shut up now.

Constantine started the official conversionof the Empire in the early 300's and Christianity was the only legal religion of the Empire by the late 300's.

"Wave, To quote one of my former pastors, "Now you've gone from preaching and started meddling." The real answer to the question that you posed is that too many of the heroes of the Religious Right have been involved in divorces. The slightly overweight guy from Texas comes to mind, but their numbers are large and few of them can claim the adultery ticket as an excuse."

I could say plenty of things. However, I think I'll let Our Lord say it instead.

Mathew Chapter 19: "6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

And then there is the following, that could very well apply to some of these "Religious Right" people who ignore the religious and social evils of divorce and spend oodles of energy condemning all forms of homosexuality.

Mathew Chapter 23: "27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."

Not exactly -- the Roman Empire fell in the 5th Century A.D.; what eventually became the "Holy Roman Empire" eventually took its place but not right away.

Wave,

To quote one of my former pastors, "Now you've gone from preaching and started meddling." The real answer to the question that you posed is that too many of the heroes of the Religious Right have been involved in divorces. The slightly overweight guy from Texas comes to mind, but their numbers are large and few of them can claim the adultery ticket as an excuse.

I am gay, and the labels "conservative" and "evangelical" do not normally apply to me. I do not even normally call myself "Christian".

But I find myself challenging liberal people (gay and straight) as often as I find myself challenging conservative people (gay and straight). I for one respect gay Christians (such as those in Courage) who believe they should remain celibate. Though gay, I am personally "agnostic" when it comes to whether or not homosexuality is ultimately "good" or not. That is, I feel that I do not "know". I was myself a member of Courage at one time (though I am not Catholic), and so know from personal experience just how beautiful that choice can be. And yet I think there are real problems (on many different levels) with that way as well. And that is one reason I am hoping for more truth and more honesty in this debate--to help me better understand the issue myself.

And, yes, I know some heterosexual Christians who are loving, intelligent, well-informed, open-minded, and who conclude that their faith does not allow them to view homosexual behavior as anything but sin. And I wish more of my liberal gay brothers and sisters could know these people as well. There are loving and intelligent people on both sides of this issue, just as there are hateful and ignorant people on both sides of this issue. And it is important to realize this.

But, having said that, I think that the two sides cannot really be compared on what we might call the "personal" or "existential" level. Gay people have suffered for centuries at the hands of the institutional Christian churches. The reverse has not been true. And gay people have in very large numbers been kicked out of churches and rejected by their own Christian families for being gay. This is a COMMON experience.

There may be some gay people who reject their families for not accepting their sexuality, but, even so, the two kinds of rejection are not really the same thing, are they?

Right now, I think the main opponents of gay marriage are Christians. And only thirty years ago, the Christians were the main force behind the Anita Bryants of the world who wanted to promote even workplace and housing discriminition against gay people.

My point being this: I think the rage that many gay people feel towards Christians is wholly understandable. That doesn't make it wholly justifiable in every single instance, but the generally anti-Christian stance of many gay people is nevertheless understandable. On the other hand, the sense of victimization that some conservative Christians seem to feel can not really be equated with the centuries-long objective victimization of gay people, can it? In some instances, perhaps, yes. But certainly not in general....?

And we must not forget that we do not live in a "Christian nation". We live in a secular nation, with both freedom of, and freedom from, established religion. When some Christians use their Bibles as a justification for some of their anti-gay political movements, then, once again, gay citizens are understandably angered. I don't think the potential threat the conservative Christians might feel from gay rights advocates can be equated with the threat that gay people experience from some conservative Christian agendas. It is not even completely clear what personal threat gay rights pose to conservative Christians (losing tax-exempt status if churches discriminate, perhaps? having children exposed to gay families at school?), whereas Christian discrimination against gays has been a very real threat on a very personal, existential, visceral level. I think both sides need to be sensitive to the threat the other side might feel (and I believe both sides have a long way to go on that score), but, still, I don't think the threat can really be equated. Can it?

And when it comes to secular debates on laws regarding gay rights, the Christian Bibles (I use the plural because there are 3 of them--I think it is always important to keep that in mind as well) are not acceptable authorities for at least two reasons: people calling themselves Christians do not agree on their interpretations of their Bibles, and Christian Bibles are precisely that: Christian. And this is a secular nation. Morality in the body politic may and should be argued on the basis of reason and the common good, but not on the basis of Biblical "authority", as such. And that is another reason why many gay people do not like conservative Christians: some really have pushed a "Bible-based" political agenda. And, yes, some gay activists have pushed an anti-Bible agenda as well. But, again....can we really equate the two? Don't get me wrong: I am sure we can COMPARE them. I am sure that Christians have suffered discrimination at times (just as atheists, communists, blacks, women, and any number of groups have). But can we really EQUATE the suffering Christians may have suffered at the hands of gay rights advocates with the suffering gay people have suffered at the hands of Christians?

Perhaps we can, and I am open to those would argue so. I just haven't, as yet, heard convincing arguments to that effect.

As to your friend who loves gay men, and yet believes her Bible condemns homosexuality (though not, presumably, the homosexuals themselves, as people), I think we have to remember one thing: that is what she thinks her faith teaches. That is her religion. Others come to different conclusions about the very same book, after just as much soul-searching and prayer. Can the book itself, then, really stand as the arbiter of truth in this case?

And perhaps even more importantly, we must remember that is it is her religion. It may not be mine, or yours, or her neighbor's. In this country, her religion cannot be imposed on her neighbor. She has the right to practice it; and her neighbor has the right to be free of any purely religious-based restraint from her religion. Her faith may "inform" her debates with other citizens; but her faith would have to be translated into general moral principles and would have to stand the test of reason and the common good in order to be admitted as an argument for or against gay rights in the secular life of this nation. "The Bible says...." is not a valid argument in this country. Among Christians, yes, but not among American citizens.