I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents…

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents…

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

You can oversimplify what I said as a vainity and indicative of someone who doesnt care about the poor and opressed “just wanting a guarantee into heaven” – this is a standard response and a architypal emergent strawman argument.

The assertion that Christians seem to “know” the right thing yet live the same as anybody else is a false dichotomy and a typilogical symptom of postmodernism (or you may prefer “epistemological humility”!!!) Jarrods presentation in and of itself was didactic and instructive in its approach and delivered in a way that is calculated to affect peoples attitudes and manifest in their actions??? – wasnt he trying to impart kowledge so as to get people to act a certain way??

Notwithsanding that, Ido believe that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy – right beliefs and motives will lead to the right actions. Your proposition about what Cristians allegedly “know” can not even be supported factually – It is unequivocal the biblical illiteracy and ignorace about foundational and non-negotiable Christian doctrines and beliefs have never been worse. Subsequently they have never been more attacked and undermimed either.

If people are professing Christ and yet they do not manifest over time, fruits of good works and obedience to the LAW (which – I'm sorry – you were preaching i.e. love God and love you neighbour???) then I would submit that it is questionable as to whether God has done the work of salvation in their heart at all – thus the question then needs to be – do we try to disciple a goat to act like a sheep or do we present Christ and him crucified for our sins to such a person whos life seems to be unconformed to their profession of faith – the latter is clearly our comission. Let this work be first and foremost and the other works will flow as a natural consequence – the tree is not cognisant that it is even bringing forth fruit “Lord, when did we do these things” (Matt 25: 31-46)

Love this discussion. I think there is something to be said for the tension in that passage in Ephesians and how we negotiate that in our lived experiences.

I was also there on Sunday night and found the teaching both challenging and exciting.

In response to your question of the presence of the 'gospel'. I guess I thought of it in this way, Adi Leason says “the good news is the end of the bad news”. The end of the bad news is tpartly about the Kingdom of heaven breaking in here on Earth as it did with Jesus and as it should with us – the church. So looking to live in such ways that reveal the kingdom Earth is central to the gospel and certainly evident in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. And from what I understood this was the challenge Jarrod was posing, that our lives should express the non-violent love revealed in Jesus in practical ways which speak to the Kingdom of God breaking through. This is totally in fitting with the passage in Ephesians to which you referred,

“You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better then we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can boast about. God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are.” Ephesians 2: 8-10

I'm pretty sure Jarrod quoted Desmond Tutu saying to a journalist about Osama Bin Laden, “Osama, you are a child of God. Act like it” and to George Bush “George Bush you are a child of God. Act like it” I think that's the point of what I'm trying to say. Yes we are children of God and saved by grace but now we must act on that. God loved us so we must love others.

If anyone is wondering where they can listen to the teaching that has inspired this conversation it is available at

http://media.riverviewchurch.com.au/podcast/200...

Enjoy!

Yes I was also at Riverview that night, and I must say was challenged and inspired by Jarrod. I am lead to believe that the Gospel is the good news, that this good news can not be seperated from non-violence and that God's Kingdom breaking in (as the Lord's prayer suggests) is happening here and amongst us. That this is the good news, and that our lives are to proclaim it and witness to God's glory.

Ephesians 2:8 does make it clear that Salvation is from Christ, and not from our works, however I believe you can not read this verse without also reading the entire passage, esp verse 10.

I don't believe that Sunday's nights message was a Law based message, Rather a challenge to see the cross as more than a 'means-to-the-end' object. I fear many Christians see the death and resurrection as simply a faith story that guarantees them a ticket into heaven, rather than ackowledge the Gospel does challenge how we live. That the message in the cross is more than after-life insurance, its a model of our love, compassion and commitment to Kingdom values,

I say thankyou to Jarrod for this reminder and challenge in how we live out our faith. For the last thing we want is to be known as Christians who 'know' the right thing, but live the same as anybody else. Im glad our hope is counter-cultural and for me this must include a stance against voilence and a step towards loving my enemies.

Heard you speak at Riverview. I appreciate where you are coming from but I have to say that , unless I misunderstand you, violence (and yes – war) is warranted and necessary at times. You spoke of your potentially dangerous confrontation with that fellow at the Warwick train station overpass in Perth. I wonder what you would have done if your wife and child were present and exposed to danger. I was a police officer for 13 years and I can tell you without shame that in my 13 year service I have had to resort to violent force (fortunately never lethal) in order to protect life and property in my service to the community. I would have done the same for you as it was my God appointed vocation. We had a famous saying in the police – “I would rather be tried by twelve than be carried by six”.

With respect – besides your views of “non-violence” (which again unless I am mistaken, I find a bit disingenuous) all I heard you preach mate was Law, Law and more LAW – I heard you say “Gospel” a few times but where was the Gospel?? – Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and repentance and faith in that Jesus on whom we trust for our justification – not works of the law which are powerless to save (Eph 2:8)

The Gospel is ours to proclaim – not to edit….