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God's Politics

God or Country?

by Elizabeth Palmberg 05-12-2009

Torture Poll: It’s About Politics, not Religion, a recent Washington Post blog entry, says that all the news coverage about white evangelical Protestants supporting torture is missing something. Evangelicals have those views on torture not because they are evangelicals, but because they are largely Republican:

In a basic statistical model estimating public support for a torture option, party is a clear predictor, whether one is Catholic, Protestant or unaffiliated is not.

Good news – or the central problem? As Emmanuel Katongole pointed out in The Pattern of This World in Sojourners earlier this year, it is a grave problem when political affiliations shape Christians’ views more than religious affiliations do:

Once this imagination and identity had fomented, Christianity made little difference … Christ­ianity seemed little more than an add-on—an inconsequential relish that did not radically affect peoples’ so-called natural identities.

Katongole describes how this kingdom-of-this-world thinking led to the genocide in Rwanda, one of the most ostensibly “Christianized” countries in Africa. He also describes how he’s seen this thinking in the U.S. – and, if there was any doubt, the torture poll confirms it: He’s talking to you, United States. I suggest that we listen.

Elizabeth Palmberg is an assistant editor of Sojourners.

Categories: Human Rights
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  • keithsmith
    I am very sickened by any death of human beings that are not saved by the mercy, grace and sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    I would argue that Saddam Hussein had much more to do with those deaths than the USA did.

    As bad as you say this country is, why is it so many people are trying to GET INTO THIS COUNTRY.

    Yeah, I do think they are offbase.

    I think the Church should be involved in more than it is.

    When the people continue to look for the government to solve their problems, a) they are going to be disappointed; b) the church has washed their hands of doing their job.

    For example, I see Christ charging the church to take care of the poor, not the government. The Church of the USA has not done enough in the past 100 years of helping the poor.
  • saucybeef
    Hey, Keith-how sickened are you by the deaths that are inflicted by our nation by on the LIVING???, For example, by the strict embargo and blockade of Iraq that resulted in the preventable deaths of an estimated 500,000 Iraqi children-not embryos-between 1991-2003? Your tax dollars and mine have been supporting an imperialistic government that couldn't give a Shiite about the death and suffering of innocents on their way to global dominance.Gee, d'ya think Muslim "extremists" are off base in their grudges against us? Don't you realize that the Church is just a little bit warped by concerning itself only witthe fate of embryos,zygotes, and the Terry Schiavos?
  • DJ9791
    Too much of what has been said above has sidetracked into abortion vs. any other issue...quote the Bible to support, or deny, your viewpoint on abortion, but one thing the Bible is very clear about...harming and killing is prohibited IN ALL FORMS!

    Torture for the expedience of the "ticking time bomb" is not only a Hollywood mind-set, but a sin. It desn't matter what the circumstances, Jesus specifically decried violence in any form.

    Abortion is a sin.

    Process and argue all you want, but harming and killing under any circumstances were strictly prohibited by our Savior, arguments by Cheney, Limbaugh et al notwithstanding!

    Pray for Peace and Dare to act!

    Doug & Jan In Colorado
  • I would submit that both sides fall under this category and not just one.

    I don't agree in the least, primarily because few, if any, evangelical Christians are at all involved with the "pro-choice" side, let alone activists. And you don't need to be a Christian to be anti-abortion -- my stance preceded my conversion.

    Or at least I see NO Scriptural evidence in the least that would indicate that Jesus would be supportive of a policy of abortion and the killing of unborn children.

    You would then have to promote a comprehensive "pro-life" policy which includes, but doesn't focus exclusively on, the unborn. The trouble is that the conservative movement stole the abortion issue in the late 1970s as a way to get votes, which is one reason fighting legal abortion gets virtually nowhere today, especially now. (I say that because the right-wingers who run the Republican Party demand adherence to every one of their tenets. For that reason I said here recently, and still believe, that nothing will be done about abortion until the hard right is gone.)
  • keithsmith
    I would submit that both sides fall under this category and not just one.

    And both are wrong for doing it.

    Or at least I see NO Scriptural evidence in the least that would indicate that Jesus would be supportive of a policy of abortion and the killing of unborn children.
  • No, you missed my point. I've personally dealt with "pro-life" activists who were (and in some cases still are) willing to misuse Scripture, distort facts and in some cases flat-out lie about their opponents for the cause -- and that certainly does not reflect Christ. That was why I wrote to that ministry, which was long on rhetoric but short on truth.
  • keithsmith
    Your question is my question.

    Supporting the killing of unborn babies is DEFINITELY NOT reflecting Christ.

    Standing up against abortion is NOT political posturing

    And thank God for His Mercy and His Grace to allow David, other characters in Scripture and us to have that option you state in your last paragraph.
  • What I care about is how is God going to view it on Judgment Day. Will judge view abortion as killing on Judgment Day? That is what Christians should be worried about.

    A version of this very same question was posed to me by a staff person with Keith Green's Last Days Ministries, to which I had written in the 1980s because of its obsession with abortion issue (which was common then). This person wrote that God would ask me in the judgment, "'How could you let those babies die?'" I responded, "I'd rather hear that question than 'Why did you not reflect Me?'" That ended the argument -- because God is not so much interested in political posturing (which, for the most part, the "pro-life" movement is about) as developing character among His people.

    And as for David, I realized something a few years ago. Every major character in the Scripture with the exception of Jesus had at one point fallen into gross sin -- and paid for it. The thing is, they recognized it and repented.
  • keithsmith
    Legally, I don't really care.

    What I care about is how is God going to view it on Judgement Day. Will judge view abortion as killing on Judgement Day? That is what Christians should be worried about.

    You mention David and that whole situation flies in the face of the argument that Christian's are some horrible people with the torture issue.

    David had a man killed in cold blood for lust. And how did God describe him? A man after God's own heart. Very interesting and confusing (at least to me). How can God describe David who did what he did as a man after God's heart?
  • WaveTossed
    "There is an internal coherence to Sean Hannity's views regarding waterboarding and the nature of the conflict that terroristic organizations are engaged in."

    As for this: unfortunately, you are correct about Hannity. His views on torture are coherent according to his system of logic.

    Perhaps it might do Sean Hannity a bit of good to read Matthew Chapter 27, starting with Verse 26; he should continue to read the entire chapter.
  • naekwon
    I was absolutely appalled when I read about this poll on CNN. I know many conservatives who are also disgusted by this, and I feel that it extends beyond left vs right borders. John Yoo thinks that it is ok to crush a child's testicles in front of his father to extract information as a means of "enhanced interrogations." I only wish that was hyperbole. You should all go to http://www.nrcat.org/ and mobilize your congregation.
  • letjusticerolldown
    My heart is very trusting of people and my head very skeptical. Behind our varied masks and performances, most of us have legitimate and sincere interests and commitments that are closer to sanity than insanity. And we hold those interests because there is a certain internal coherence that makes sense to us.

    There is an internal coherence to Sean Hannity's views regarding waterboarding and the nature of the conflict that terroristic organizations are engaged in.

    When we strip everything away--the things we ultimately want are usually pretty similar. I don't know how to get there unless there are persons with hearts who can grant a gracious trust to those who appear to differ so deeply so as to provide the space in which the ultimate, legitimate concerns can be acknowledged and worked on.
  • Well, if you end up killing that person or he/she gives you bad information that doesn't help the cause. I'm sure some of these terrorists have extremely tough minds that don't break. (That's why they're terrorists.)
  • Legally, it is not. The reason is because, to establish any crime, you have to have at least two witnesses -- plus, the accuser must participate in any execution, the only acceptable punishment for murder. (If you're going to do things the "Bible way" you have to go all the way with that, including its implementation, and cannot pick and choose which parts you want to enforce.)

    To give you an example, why did King David get off for putting out a contract on Bathsheba's husband? It had nothing to with God's mercy, as often mentioned. Truth was that there was only one witness. God would have had to break His own law to put David to death.
  • jonh901271
    I think that many good christian evangelicals were duped by the Republican Party. The Repub party picked a few key issues, abortion being the one that comes to my mind, to lure these good folks (the base?) into the fold, while advocating torture and invasion of distant lands (mass murder) under the premise of national security, and laying waste to the earth for the sake of a dollar. It seems these good folks don't know that many Democrats abhore killing any of God's creatures, love this earth (God's gifts) and its many treasures, and care about our children's future on earth. We have all made too many sacrifices of our morals just to "belong" to one party or the other. What did Jim Wallis say about God and politics?
  • WaveTossed
    "I think they both take it seriously."

    How could Hannity be taking water-boarding seriously when he volunteers to be water-boarded for charity, then renegs on his pledge?
  • keithsmith
    Really, so thou shalt no murder is not addressing the killing of unborn children.

    Now some would then reply that they don't see abortion as the killing of an unborn children.

    My reply would be Are you saying that society's view of something can then change the way God sees something.

    O God, abortion isn't murder because we don't think it is killing a human life.

    I am not sure that will play come Judgement Day but those who believe that are more than welcome to try that argument with God.

    And for the record before I get labeled, I am a voting Democrat that is sickened by the Democrat position on abortion.
  • Eric77
    I wouldn't assume that Elizabeth even read Brian McLaren's commentary from a week ago. And even if she did, she may not have read the comments. If I were a regular commentator here I'd be sure to read what other people are saying, and Elizabeth might want to do so, but I wouldn't assume she has.

    The points you bring up about the survey are legitimate. I just don't think many of the commentators read the comment sections. Or at least they don't let on that they do.

    Another problem with the survey is that it divides Christians between evangelicals and mainstream Protestants, when many Christians, like myself, fall into both groups. Mainstream Protestant is a denominational distinction, while evangelical is an emphasis on certain matters of faith.
  • letjusticerolldown
    I think they both take it seriously. My question had to do with how that seriousness bumps up against their showmanship instincts. I am not saying there can be no fun, no laughter, no light-side, to immensely serious issues. But there is a way in which the back-and-forth push-and-shove becomes all about something other than the issue at hand--and contributes nothing to the nation acting with moral responsibility.

    To have a 'big voice' calls for a big dose of responsibility and wisdom in how one uses that voice. The primary media agenda is to increase the size of the voice.
  • WaveTossed
    As I pointed out earlier: check out Matthew Chapter 27. Start out with Verse 26 and read.
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