"And our heroes are not war heroes, but heroes of the Cross, folks who have died as Jesus did, loving their enemies."

Unless you are consistently a pacifist (which I do respect as a legitimate position) why can't we have both kinds of heroes. I totally agree that Americanism sometimes is equated with Christianity, but why does Sojo have to rain on every celebration of our nation. Your celebration of Interdependence (which I agree is good Christian thing) seems designed to say that you don't celebrate Independence Day. The Independence we celebrate is an specific independence that gave rise to a Nation of interdependent states and peoples. Can we never celebrate anything about this country without at the same time stopping to point out all the bad things? We don't live our personal lives that way. How many of you take time when you celebrate your parents birthdays to point out the bad things so you will be sure that they know you don't think they are perfect? Where were the calls on Cinco de Mayo to remember the bad parts of Mexican history? Do you have a counter-celebration for that? Or is it just the U.S. that needs to do that?

BTW just to give some perspective where I'm coming from, I struggle with pledging allegience to the flag. I absolutely don't want an American flag in our sanctuary.

Assuming positive intent, I doubt Mr. Claiborne is against the freedoms that we celebrate on Independence Day; it is regretful that it may come off the way you took it (I'm initially inclined to believe that as well). But nationalism and Christianity are not brothers, so at the very least we must celebrate freedom, not "America" per se. And Mr. Claiborne may simply believe this is an opportunity to include another ideal (interdependence) to the celebration. It kinda fits that on a day we celebrate independence we all "gather together" as families and friends.

xfree 9 says, But nationalism and Christianity are not brothers, so at the very least we must celebrate freedom, not "America" per se.

Yes, by all means, celebrate freedom whenever and wherever it graciously appears. But, what is wrong with celebrating America? Name another nation that has done more for freedom and the spread of Christianity. This self-loathing is a troublesome form of legalism as unhealthy as blind patriotism.

I wonder how many of this opinion avoid nationalism as represented in the 4th of July celebration while enthusiastically embracing Earth Day because it is the duty of every citizen of earth to honor and celebrate their home.

"What is wrong with celebrating America?"

I used to believe that patriotism or nationalism was compatible with Christianity, with the caveat that as long as our citizenship in the Kingdom was primary and the citizenship of the nation we lived in on earth was secondary——a sort of "dual citizenship," if you will, with clear preference to the Kingdom. Sort of a "God, then country, sort of thinking. My hunch is that is where you stand. And I don't think that's such a bad position, really. I sympathize with your sentiments. I, too, and proud of what "America" has meant to the rest of the world historically. More on that below.

What does "celebrate America" actually mean? Does it mean the government of America? Except for the Constitution being an excellent document, I certainly don't celebrate what the government has historically done, with its wars, theft, and treatment of minorities. Does it mean I celebrate the people of America? I'm not so certain that celebrating people is a great idea, though I'm certainly proud of the fortitude and longsuffering of my fellow citizens.

As you said, there is much to be proud of, much to honor, and much to praise about America, just as there are things to be shameful about, things to apologize for, and things to reconsider about our history.

At the heart of this notion of nationalism/patriotism and Christian citizenship is identity. How am I defined? is the central question. Paul said our citizenship is heavenly, aka "not of this world." I am defined by Jesus, not by my national citizenship. The Jews were very much about their identity as "God's people," and I believe that is part of the carryover when Paul wrote that the Christians are a "holy nation, a royal priesthood" (sorry, dispensationalists!).

So I think you and I are more on the same line of thinking than you initially assumed from my comments. I hope that cleared things up a bit. I don't loathe Independence Day or our nation; I do loathe Earth Day, but that's a different story.

Thank xfree9 for taking the time to give a reasoned and honest reply. I stand with you. I also wonder with you what it means to celebrate America in a Christ honoring way. This question is part of a historical debate in Christianity - what to do about culture. Do we ignore it, adapt to it, despise it, or transform it? I imagine the latter is the correct answer but then we may argue about the proper methods of transformation.

Thank you paradoxtor. I got more from your comment than from the article. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of Slavery" (Gal 5:1). Christians should celebrate every form of liberty/freedom - earthly and spiritual. Apparently, conservatives aren't the only ones who struggle with legalism.

I question the equating of American freedoms with Christian freedoms for two reasons.

First, Paul tells us that our freedom in Christ is should be used so that we can become slaves. "For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another" Gal 5:13. This freedom is from sins such as the lust for power and riches. Paul repeatedly refers to himself as a slave for Christ. Christian freedom is a paradox in that it is always accompanied by slavery to Christ.

Second, you suggest above that the US "has done more for the freedom and the spread of Christianity" than any other nation. I suggest that America has done just the opposite. It has been shown over and over again throughout history that when Christianity is the majority religion Christianity itself suffers. The lack of persecution often leads to apathy. Currently Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds throughout Africa as well as China, two places where Christianity is opposed and persecuted.

I also have enjoyed reading the three comments more than the original post. I can only think of the suffering of many of the founders of our country to give people like Shane Claiborne his fundamental right to free speech. Perhaps Shane could give at least one minute to quiet reflection on the freedoms gained from the losses by others.

Do you think that the War for Independence secured the colonists freedom of speech?

Freedom of Speech was amendment 1 of the Constitution, which was ratified 11 years after the Declaration of Independence and four years after the end of the American Revolution.

However, it was challenged many times after, most immediately when President John Adams pushed through the Alien and Sedition Acts in an attempt to quell public criticism of his administration.

Thomas Jefferson, who wrote the line "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press," was famous for such lines as: "...were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter."

However, during his later years, Jefferson had almost nothing positive to say about freedom of speech at least as it regarded the form practiced by newspapers.

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/...

Like every nation, and every civilization, the United States has had its share of dark and unpleasant moments. I would suggest that Mr. Claiborne--whom I admire a great deal, having read both of his books--remember that his freedom to espouse his religious beliefs is guaranteed by the our Constitution. That the Constitution allowed for slavery to continue makes it a flawed (albiet pragmatic) document. It remains the best form of democratic government, and the most widely emulated. That our Founders were slave owners doesn't make them the stick-figure boogey men people like Howard Zinn would like them to be. That there is racism and unfairness doesn't mean that our nation is overwhelmingly wrong or evil. Like every other nation, we have weaknesses and failings. We also have enormous--and I would argue, more definitive--strengths. I am proud to be an American even as I keep my eyes wide open to our flaws and faults.

Every country which has English as its official language has a 4th of July on its calendar.

You aren't supposed to "Celebrate the 4th of July" on the 4th day of July in the USA; you re supposed to Celebrate Independence Day.

Because of being in a war zone (Vietnam - US Army) for a year and under attack at HQ a few times, I cannot celebrate the day with fireworks. I like the professional fireworks displays but, I have to have someone with me to help me stay calm.

By the way, I have participated in a sweat lodge ceremony sponsored by a church in Tulsa with Randy Woodley. I am a member of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.

It seems like the post and discussion *mostly* misses the point that the 4th of July is not really about anything related to the USA, just like Halloween is not really about pagan practices, and Christmas mostly doesn't have anything to do with Christianity. Therefore, I'm not sure what we are protesting. The days don't really have meaning in and of themselves; their meaning is given by the practices that occur on them. We create the meaning of the days - it doesn't just exist on its own.

So, Christmas is about presents and family (unless you do something different with Christmas), Halloween is about costumes and candy, and the 4th of July is about BBQ's and fireworks. There's not much to protest there. Go out and make the day what you want it to be. If you want it to be "interdependence day," then go and do stuff on it that has to do with interdependence like Shane advocated.

Sort of like fireworks.
You love the beautiful colors but you dread the noise.
Love your God, Love your Country.
But struggle with it all.

"Name another country that has done more for freedom and the spread of Christianity."

First I'd like to address your contention from a historical perspective. Then I'd like to look at what freedom, much less Christianity, has to do with Independence Day as celebrated in the United States of America. Finally, I would like to examine whether, in fact, this country has really done much good for freedom and the spread of Christianity in the world.

First, name another country that has done more. Rome.

The Roman Republic was instrumental in the spread of democracy around the world. The Roman Empire was critical to the spread of the Christian religion. Fundamental democratic political principals, such as the balance of powers, grew out the Athenian model of ancient Greece and the 450 years of Republican Rome. The spread of Christianity occurred during the last 150 years of Rome as the military dictators of the shrinking empire allowed and then embraced the growing religion in order to keep control of the people. The institutionalization of Christianity as the official religion took place in 380 AD. Ninety-four years later the empire ended with the abdication of Emperor Romulus Augustus in 476. But the association of the church with Roman history continues to this day.

But of course none of that has anything to do with American Independence Day. The day is a commemoration of the signing of a document on July 4, 1776 that contains many references to rights, but not to freedoms. It simply established that 13 colonies of Great Britain now considered themselves independent. The Constitution, which famously secured the "blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity," wasn't adopted for 11 more years and only after a compromise that forced the phrase "all men are created equal" to not include black men.

The Declaration of Independence and the Revolutionary War weren't sparked by a desire for personal freedom, rather they resulted from economic and political disputes that included a lack of representation in British government. "Give me liberty or give me death," has a great ring to it. But the war cry that lead up to the Boston tea party was: "No taxation without representation."

Strictly speaking, July 4 doesn't mark US freedom but US independence. The terms are not entirely synonymous and, from a practical standpoint, freedom from England came well after independence was declared.

But none of that speaks to the role this country has played in either the spread of freedom or Christianity in the world. Undoubtedly, this has been a missionary nation for the organized Christian religion. I'm not sure its efforts have duplicated those of colonial Spain or England, but they have been significant. Yet as we were exporting this religion the faith in this country has been floundering. Fewer and fewer people attend churches, less and less define themselves as Christian.

In a nation with supposedly unparalleled freedom, Christianity is failing. In nations of appalling deprivations and/or restrictions, faith in Christ is blossoming. Should this country take credit for that or learn a lesson?

As for that other export, freedom, I'm not sure it ever fared well. This country has put an end to more democracies than it ever fostered. As just one example, learned of while traveling in Central American during college, the CIA sponsored the assassination of the elected president of Guatemala during the 1930s. Our government also supported the military dictatorship that replaced him.

Just in my life-time the US got into trouble for its support of dictatorships in Iran, Iraq, the Philippines, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Pakistan, Indonesia, and Vietnam. The last example alone provides numerous instances of the thwarting of the democratic practice -- from the rejection of the unification vote ending the French war to the ouster and assassination of popularly elected South Vietnamese leaders.

To be honest, the United States has never offered anything specifically political or governmental. It certainly wasn't shipping anything that looked consistently like freedom. What this country was selling was an economic system -- capitalism -- and any political philosophy that would oppose communism.

History shows that our leaders were willing to embrace and fully support leaders of shocking depravity if those leaders stood against communism and/or supported American business interests. The Guatemalan assassination came because the elected president enacted land reform that would have broken up Dole fruit plantations and distributed the land back to the people.

In one of the ugliest chapters of US history, leaders of this nation engaged in drug trafficking that helped create drug cartels in Columbia and involved the military dictator of Panama in order to raise money for the purchase of weapons to be used by an ousted dictator in Nicaragua and the religious leaders of Iran. It is sad irony that the Ayatollah, who had deposed our rapacious friend the Shah and taken 50 Americans hostage, was being supported against our former ally Saddam Hussein (who was also using American planes and tanks and bombs).

Bottom line, the US record on spreading freedom is spotty, at best, for the last hundred years. As for what this country has done with Christianity, I can only say that we are not a shinning example for the rest of the world. We may have played a major role in planting it elsewhere, but haven't done too well cultivating it here at home.

So while I try to avoid unhealthy legalism and don't entirely agree with Mr. Claiborne's positions, I do feel required to respond when faith and politics are mixed myopically. This country was not the first democracy and it may not be the best the world has ever seen. More pertinent, its record with fostering freedom elsewhere bears no boasting. Perhaps most important, neither the US philosophy nor practice of freedom mixes well with following Christ.

Enjoy the fireworks.