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God's Politics

Health-Care Reform: Leading with Respect

by Melvin Bray 07-28-2009

Americans are dying for want of health care. Since the 1912 electoral defeat of Republican stalwart Theodore Roosevelt—supporter of universal coverage—we the people have been nationally conscious of this grim fact, yet still find it debatable. It is a debate over cost. It is a debate over privilege. It is a debate over quality, access, fairness, and whether or not health care is a basic human dignity. It is a debate that has raged ad infinitum in this country for more than 100 years. Yet universal coverage finally has a chance of being enacted, with the leadership of Barack Obama.

There are plenty who feel more pessimistic about the nation’s chances for meaningful health-care reform, particularly this year. Pundits believe that President Obama needs to be more forceful in prescribing exactly what the details of legislation should be, if he hopes to avoid seeing it derailed. But the president, thus far, doesn’t seem to be listening to them. For a chance at martyrdom, many liberals are willing to die on every hill of every aspect of their ideological notions of how American health care should look. However, the president seems loath to hold their swords while they run upon them. On the other hand, the loyal opposition is so determined to prove themselves courageous enough to take on a yet popular president that they are willing to attribute to him ideas not his own, just so they can attack. Maybe this is just one tried and true tactic in a larger strategy to discredit any effort toward health-care reform. Either way, the president seems disinclined to engage them on such hackneyed terms. Perhaps it’s because he knows these have all failed in the past: the exhaustive critiques as well as the supposed alternatives.

Mr. Obama’s resistance to even the most seductive of these pointless tacks undoubtedly increases the likelihood of success. Still, the chief reason health-care reform remains plausible in a climate of such uncertainty is that, through it all, the president has remained determined to demonstrate a long ignored, perhaps unprecedented, respect for his coequal branches of government. This seems strange and disconcerting to many, thus the pedantic criticism. It is so unfamiliar that many on both sides of the aisle refuse to acknowledge it as useful. “He’s not playing the game.” “He’s not following the script.” News outlets seem conflicted on how to report it, seldom naming it, which may not be all together their fault. The administration hasn’t been the best at aphorizing Obama’s ‘leadership through respect.’

As a nation we have grown comfortable with the idea of a Grand Pater, as it were, in the White House, telling everyone what to do. We’ve forgotten that Commander-in-Chief is an outward-facing, military-only role, not the way the Chief Executive is to function with a coequal legislative branch. He could, but that sort of antagonism just makes one an easier target; it carries no favor. R-E-S-P-E-C-T, on the other hand, goes a long way. So President Obama’s way has been to listen, to synthesize, and then to share: to “seek first to understand, then to be understood,” as Stephen Covey would say. His doing so compels others to. This is how he leads. Then he steps back and trusts Congress to do the job of legislating, knowing that the dialectic process laid out by our founding fathers—if engaged in, if respected—is capable of producing a much more balanced piece of legislation than he could have dictated. It works because it earns people’s incontrovertible participation in the process even if they later refuse to endorse the results.

Now this is all hypothetical, of course. It concerns what might be just over the cusp of the horizon. Still, part of the rationale for optimism rests in the fact that leading with respect has worked for Mr. Obama in the past. When the economic crisis came to a head last September, while Sen. McCain was torn between the suspension of his campaign and appearing on David Letterman, then-Senator Obama calmly returned to Washington and helped facilitate Senate deliberations on the matter: asking questions, offering ideas, finding consensus. And who can forget the Rachel Maddow interview toward the end of the campaign in which she pressed Sen. Obama on whether a change in tactics would be prudent to combat the no-holds-barred October mudslinging? As her liberal angst got the best of her, Obama mused, “I think we’re winning,” as if to say, “If it’s not broken, why fix it?” Beyond his election, we have any number of examples, including, but not limited to, the 2009 stimulus package. Certainly, not everyone endorses the results; however, in the mist of their complaining, opponents were not denied nor did they pass on the opportunity to shape and amend the bill. It ended up far more reflective of diverse interests and concerns than the president originally proposed, which is likely a good thing. Moreover, the process was legislatively veracious enough to win a filibuster-proof majority that included three Republicans, and to help precipitate the defection of one of those Republicans over to the Democratic Party. Not a bad track record for a leadership that many still believe has slim to no chance of prevailing.

Melvin BrayMelvin Bray (melvinbray.com) is a devoted husband, committed father, learner, teacher, writer, storyteller, purveyor of sustainability, and believer in possibilities. He is a contributing author to the recent compilation Audacity of Faith: Christian Leaders Reflect on the Election of Barack Obama (Judson Press) and an active participant in the Emergent Village.

To learn more about health-care reform, click here to visit Sojourners’ Health-Care Resources Web page.

Categories: Health
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  • naekwon
    Lumen, you started off decent, but you've since presented nothing but baseless ideological opinions. Just so you don't think I'm some socialist, I am a firm believer in Adam Smith capitalism. However, some things, like basic healthcare, our highway system, our police dept, our fire dept. etc, just should not be privatized. We are the only nation where it is legal to profit off of basic health. I rather like a Swiss model, but do you really think that conservatives would accept a highly regulated not-for-profit system that makes it a felony to make a profit? I would be shocked.

    Also, who do you think pays for the NIH? They have their own independent funding system, which would not be affected at all under a universal healthcare system. How many times do I have to repeat, your argument that innovation would suffer is absurd. The only thing that would suffer is patent lawyers.

    And again, you haven't really studied Obama's plan. Why? He has no plan. Bills are being formulated in the House and in the Senate. And you are right, I think that they will be terrible.

    I really want to hear more about your ideal "free market" healthcare system before I tear that apart too.
  • lumens
    "Once again, in order to get through this debate, you need facts...Medicare Part D."

    Spent a year working on the issue as a public affairs professional. Have plenty of facts, thank you.

    "So are you saying that it is legal to purchase pharmaceutical drugs from outside of the US? Again, no free trade. Medicare Part D requires the government to purchase drugs at the highest price."

    It requires government to purchase drugs at the market rate. You cannot buy from other countries, because those countries impose price controls. If our pharmaceutical companies don't adhere to the price controls, those countries will simply steal their intellectual property. I don't think that's right.

    "No matter if you purchase 1 pill or 1,000,000 pills, they are required to pay the same price as if they were purchasing only 1. That's not free trade."

    When government is involved, free trade is nearly impossible. That said, if we allowed government to dictate it's price for pharmaceutical drugs, we would be scuttling free trade entirely. The government could dictate, to any industry, the price for their goods. That is a major inhibition of freedom.

    "Again, although France's doctors are paid less, they have far more doctors per capita than we do."

    They get free education and are immune from ridiculous lawsuits. Stands to reason.

    "I'll refer you to my original response on medical innovation. Most of any real medical innovation comes directly from the National Institute of Health, not private for profit institutions."

    Which means that, from money, comes innovation. Reduce money, reduce innovation. Pay less, get less. That's common sense.

    "Only 4 of 1000 medical procedures ends up in a malpractice lawsuit."

    You know, you told me to put away the talking points, but that is essentially all you have offered. This, friend, is a talking point. It offers no assessment of how or why malpractice costs are so high in the United States.

    Doctors perform hundreds of procedures yearly. Think about how that impacts your statistic. Further, Americans have easy access to juries. One jury verdict can substantially raise costs across the board. Else, why the need for malpractice insurance.

    That said, the French system now has governmental officials determining cash outlays for patients. Again, such a concept has NO chance of passing through a Democratic congress, which relies on trial lawyer money for it's very survival.

    "Malpractice insurance groups are the ones that should be reformed, not the law which in turn affects the consumer. "

    Why should they be reformed, and how should this happen?

    "What is your ideal health care system? Do you have examples of where it has worked? "

    First of all, I am not of the opinion that we need to wait until a European nation succeeds with a system before we implement it.

    My ideal health care system provides tax breaks and funding for baseline healthcare. Under this system, employer tax breaks for health benefits are removed.

    People are allowed to choose their healthcare program, and insurers will be free from federal intervention as to what they are required to provide. Similarly, if someone gets very ill, they can go ahead and pay a high premium if they didn't plan ahead.

    Alas, such a system is politically problematic. When members of Congress want to expand federal coverage, they can trot out a cancer patient. That's the political equivalent of a conservative evoking the "socialist" argument. It is unfair, and beside the point.

    At a certain point, someone is going to need to sacrifice. I think it should be those who planned poorly, and you (I am guessing) think the risk should be spread across populations.

    But this is a moot point. Obama is not advocating a French-style system. He is advocating a British-American hybrid. His plan sucks, and he is selling it dishonestly, so I am opposing it.
  • ShazamMan
    This plan will promote both abortion and euthanasia. It will increase the deficit.
    It will deny coverage to those who need it through government-controlled rationing. Pro-abortion and libertine, libidinous liberals often say "Keep your
    laws off my body" and "Keep government out of the bedroom." I would say,
    "Keep government out of the doctors' offices and hospitals." Obama's chief
    medical advisor (Rahm's brother) says that "Doctors take the Hippocratic
    Oath too seriously." We're all in serious trouble, but the unborn, the handicapped, the infirm, and the aging (which, you know, kind of includes all of us) especially.
  • naekwon
    Man, I thought that we were on to something. That we were going to solve our medical crisis, just you and I. I don't like partisan ideologies and the media that supports them, whether it be Fox or MSNBC. Shephard Smith or Keith Olbermann. Once again, in order to get through this debate, you need facts...Medicare Part D. So are you saying that it is legal to purchase pharmaceutical drugs from outside of the US? Again, no free trade. Medicare Part D requires the government to purchase drugs at the highest price. No matter if you purchase 1 pill or 1,000,000 pills, they are required to pay the same price as if they were purchasing only 1. That's not free trade.

    Again, although France's doctors are paid less, they have far more doctors per capita than we do. The AMA allows limited medical licenses in order to keep demand high while supply low. Simply increasing doctor pay does nothing to availability. Again, Not a free market.

    I'll refer you to my original response on medical innovation. Most of any real medical innovation comes directly from the National Institute of Health, not private for profit institutions.

    Tort reform...well, I absolutely agree that malpractice insurance is killing doctors' price of overhead. But there is a very rational solution, and it's not just placing caps on malpractice lawsuits. In comparison, we have a fairly low number of malpractice suits. Only 4 of 1000 medical procedures ends up in a malpractice lawsuit. Malpractice insurance groups are the ones that should be reformed, not the law which in turn affects the consumer. France struggled with this very thing until recently when they moved to a Swedish model, which is similar to how we handle worker's compensation. No doubt it should be addressed.

    What is your ideal health care system? Do you have examples of where it has worked?
  • lumens
    I never watch Fox News, though I often punch Shephard Smith's name in on YouTube. I suggest you do the same.

    "One of my biggest concerns is that a public option would look similar to Medicare Part D, which completely prohibits competition and merely subsidizes big pharma on our tax dollar."

    Part D doesn't prohibit competition. It simply neglects to interfere with existing rules that balance competition with the rights of companies to protect patents. When government begins negotiating, market forces are removed. The government has all the cards, since it can enact laws to get its way.

    As such, I do not want government to be in the business of negotiating salaries and fees. Not only is that Socialism, but it's one of Socialism's worst features.

    Making minor changes to secure new patents is a well established tactic for negotiating patent law across the board. It is incorrect to assert that this is indicative of a lack of innovation. If you are recommending the federal government intervene to change the particulars of our patent system, I find that idea problematic.

    The system we have does indeed foster innovation that creates good medicine. We have great medicine in this country. Other countries import our innovations. Reducing the profit incentive reduces the innovations.

    Reducing doctor salaries is going to result in fewer doctors. Making medical school free is going to cost money. And what about tort reform? Couldn't I just as easily make the argument that nationalized health care without tort reform essentially amounts to writing taxpayer checks to lawyers?

    Rural co-ops didn't really work, so I'm not sure why or how a nationally run co-op would. It also seems like a distinction without a difference.

    I don't buy into the idea that we will experience huge cost savings simply by providing more competition for insurance companies. Healthcare costs are rising because people are acquiring more and better healthcare. Insurance companies have to adjust their rates accordingly, just as government would have to adjust tax rates accordingly.

    At some point, we have to decide what we want to do. Do we want to pay more out of pocket? Ration healthcare? Cut doctor pay? Cut the lawyers out? Pay more taxes?
  • TedVothJr
    Single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer, single payer. Get it?
  • naekwon
    lumens. I also share many of your concerns. It's nice to converse with someone who has actually thought about this w/o relying on the usual Faux News memes and "socialism" scare tactics. One of my biggest concerns is that a public option would look similar to Medicare Part D, which completely prohibits competition and merely subsidizes big pharma on our tax dollar.

    I also have enormous respect for the non-profit hospitals, which accept it or not, Obama has been championing as well. The problem though, is how do you create a federal mandate saying that we should do away with for profit/ fee for service health care? It would no doubt greatly reduce costs, as well as quality, but that just seems to be an enormous BIG GOVT leap. Libertarians would have a fit.

    I also completely see your concern w/ France's underpaid doctors, however, they have little overhead, and no student loans. It is also not discouraging the supply of doctors in the country, as they have a much larger per capita supply of doctors than we have. I think that this would be something that would need to be negotiated with the AMA, another large power. Their budget difficulties are quite minor in comparison w/ ours. The ran over budget $9 Billion. Not a difficult figure to get under control. While still, the cost per capita is half as much as ours. That includes both private and public expenses.

    "Wage and profit controls would also serve to hinder innovation. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies aren't going to engage in research if they are stripped of their profit margins. That's an economic fact. And if we aren't innovating, who is?"

    How do you see this? The single biggest source of medical research funding is the NIH, which account to about a third of all medical research and development in the US, half of that going to universities. Look at the Human Genome Project and read what Francis Collins said about their private competitors. Much of private investment into research is to just change a molecule or two in an effort to create a new patent. I'm not saying that all private investment is bad, of course not. But there needs to be good incentives for private innovation that actually produces good medicine, not just profits. Take a look at one of the architects of the Obama's supposed "plan," David Cutler, who strongly supports this mixed bag of innovation. (I'll let you do you research on him...).

    What are your thoughts on a nationally run co-op?
  • lumens
    "Show me where that is not true."

    It has come up numerous times in discussions I've had with friends at church. I guess I can't show you those, but Christians are aware that some insurance plans cover abortions.

    "It was not republicans who showed their opposition, but 19 democrats who signed a letter to Nancy Pelosi saying that they would not sign any bill that did not recognize the Hyde Amendment."

    Right. A letter from Republicans who are already opposed to the Dems plan would hardly be persuasive.

    "Would you support a single payer plan, let's say similar to France's health insurance, that does not include abortion coverage, or would you still support a healthcare system where 87% of insurance providers cover abortion costs..."

    There are things I like about the French system. Building in market influences through co-payment is important. I am open to the idea of 100% coverage for those with certain chronic illnesses, though I shudder when I think of what a lobbyist buffet that would become in America, and I'm not sure Americans are going to embrace the price tag.

    While I support the idea of salaried doctors, I find the notion of government collectively negotiating salary with doctors to be problematic. This is one of the lynch pins of a French-style system, but would seem inherently unfair to doctors, who have paid (in dollars and time) to go through medical school under the promise of a fair market salary.

    I also don't see how this is compatible with our present tort system. You can't slash doctor salaries while allowing lawyers free reign to drive up malpractice insurance costs. The Democrats will oppose any and all efforts to close the floodgates.

    Wage and profit controls would also serve to hinder innovation. Doctors and pharmaceutical companies aren't going to engage in research if they are stripped of their profit margins. That's an economic fact. And if we aren't innovating, who is?

    I'm also not sure the French system is sustainable. It is already experiencing a growing deficit, and there is already talk of taking benefits off the table. I'm also concerned about incidents, such as the heat wave that killed 15,000 elderly people. There never was any reassuring explanation for why this was so.

    Obama's presentation of his plan has done nothing to contend with any of these facts. The fact that he "addressed" a New Yorker article about Mayo clinic is not persuasive. Their criticisms of his plan are spot on, and they have been researching and advocating around this issue since before he joined the Senate. Obama is NOT on the same page as the Mayo clinic.

    It's worth noting that French citizens are more likely to carry private insurance than are Americans.
  • naekwon
    Show me where that is not true. It was not republicans who showed their opposition, but 19 democrats who signed a letter to Nancy Pelosi saying that they would not sign any bill that did not recognize the Hyde Amendment.

    So you still didn't answer my question. Would you support a single payer plan, let's say similar to France's health insurance, that does not include abortion coverage, or would you still support a healthcare system where 87% of insurance providers cover abortion costs...meaning I pay for them through my premiums. I have never seen James Dobson talk about this on his republican website.

    If you want a real conversation, put away the talking points. For any debate to occur, the facts must be present. I'm glad to see that you have been looking at the Mayo clinic, a non-profit hospital that pays their doctors a salary, instead of the fee-for-service that most hospitals run, which any economist will tell you, has negative incentives. I think every health committee has been talking about how to expand these types of hospitals. Obama even addressed specifically the New Yorker article that highlighted the Mayo Clinic, and gave a speech from the Cleveland Clinic, which operates under the same principles.

    But the hospitals are the smaller problem. The larger one being the middle man..the ones who pay or don't pay our bills. W are the only industrialized nation that runs for profit health insurance to cover basic health. That has given us the 37th best health care in the world, by the World Health Organization's standards, an infant mortality ranking of 33, and a life expectancy at 43rd best in the world.

    So, we know it's broken, and you would agree that a not-for-profit system is the best way to go. So how to move forward? France has a single payer system, which over 90% of the population subscribes to, with private health insurance as both its competitor and supplemental insurance.For this, they have the best health care in the world, and serve the public at half the per capita cost (private and public $) that we do here.

    It would be one of the easier systems to model here. What do you think?
  • righteousnessisyoursyousay
    Shock: Inside the Healthcare Bill
    posted by Robert Wenzel

    http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2009/07/wh...



    Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT's Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill.

    It's worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill. It has Singer's footprints all over it.

    Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)

    Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!

    Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get

    Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!


    Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!

    PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

    Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!

    Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer

    PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).

    Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.

    PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange

    PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!

    PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens

    Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan

    PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed

    -PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice

    pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop

    pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.

    Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE

    Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay 4 HC 4 part time employees AND their families.

    Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll

    pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll

    Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesnt have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc

    Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)

    Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs

    PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that

    Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected

    Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesnt matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same

    PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.

    PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries

    PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs

    PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!

    Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals 4 what Govt deems preventable readmissions.

    Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.

    Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.

    Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand

    pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!

    Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing

    Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan

    Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!

    Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?

    PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life

    Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!

    PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death

    PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends

    Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates

    PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV

    Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

    PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life

    Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?

    Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?

    PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt in2 ur marriage

    Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs
  • lumens
    "But nary a word is ever said about this. "

    That's not true. That aside, there is a difference between private industry choosing to cover something, and governmental enforcement of that coverage.

    "If the Hyde Amendment is still in place, which bans federal dollars from being spent on abortion, under a public health insurance plan, would you support it? Or would you continue to support the 87% of private insurance companies that fund abortion?"

    This is a false choice on many levels. I can support either, both, or neither in this scenario.

    Personally, I think we should reform healthcare. Abortion aside, I don't think the Democrats are proposing real reform. They are simply looking to extend coverage, and accrue more power to the executive branch.

    That's not going to keep down spiraling healthcare costs. In fact, it will exacerbate the problem.

    Obama isn't promoting his plan honestly, and Republicans aren't the only ones who have figured this out. You aren't going to substantially cut costs by eliminating redundant tests and unnecessary procedures, most of which are performed out of fear of litigation.

    I've seen no acknowledgment of the Mayo clinic's proposals to reform healthcare. Mayo has some great ideas, all of which have been summarily ignored because they are not ideologically convenient.
  • lumens
    In the literal sense, yes. But Obama's presence at the top of the ticket drove turnout and swayed votes. That's all I'm saying. If I read Bray correctly, he has come to the same conclusion, though it's possible that I am not. His last paragraph is a bit muddled.
  • naekwon
    I hear the meme "stop Obamacare" as it will mandate you to contribute to taxpayer funded abortion. So far though, there have been 11 abortion amendments, and each one has been shot down. It sounds like another empty scare tactic to promote a republican agenda...of doing nothing but perpetuate the health insurance racket.

    Right now, 87% of private health insurance companies cover abortion. Mine, BCBS covers it, and most likely if you have insurance, so does yours. But nary a word is ever said about this. So to those pro-lifers who are against a single payer or public option insurance plan I pose the question. If the Hyde Amendment is still in place, which bans federal dollars from being spent on abortion, under a public health insurance plan, would you support it? Or would you continue to support the 87% of private insurance companies that fund abortion?
  • SouthTexasRed
    There's no doubt Obama respects Congress. Congress, on the other hand, has shown remarkable lack of respect for him.
  • 1Grace
    Melvin I think part of the problem is we get too much politics and personality contests involved in issues like this . The democrats that are holding up on really getting involved in Health Care Reform are waiting for costs to be specified . The stimilus spent way too much in the opinions of many, not just supportive republicans who would say so regardless. The stimilus did not effect unemplyment in the way it was sold , and the President is loosing the traditional honeymoon period new Presidents get . The trillion dollars already spent is not helpful now .

    When I hear comments like it does not matter how many people are not paying for health insurance when they can afford it but choose not to , or how many ideas of conserving costs are off the board of ideas and they are accused of just being opstacles to the conversation , I see failure . The country is not dedicated to far left issues , they may control the democratic party , but the President won on his ability to talk to people like you and me and realize we had common ground. I worry about the issue being hijacked by the FAR left , certain failure. . DC folks want to get elected , look at Barny Frank , he has a carreer of politics , no business experience, he is worth millions . This is just the reality of the DC mindset , they will vote for Americans when they see themselves prospering . He already has good health care !

    I know I want Health Care Reform , I don;t see the conversation making much sense , comprehensive or much common ground . You loose folks not speaking to the the Federal Support of tax dollars by not mentioning the use of it for Abortions and even suicide where it is legal . The Evangelical community is not all pro life zealots , but the issue is still important . Abortion Perhaps used by the Religious Right to make points , but denied by the religious left to stop honest and a good conversation of what is at stake here .
  • neuro_nurse
    “Naturally, the party faithful are delighted with the work Barack Obama has done to put Democrats in power.”

    The electorate, not Obama, put Democrats in power.
  • lumens
    I think you are conflating American expectations with the expectations of the Democratic party. Naturally, the party faithful are delighted with the work Barack Obama has done to put Democrats in power.

    He did so, in part, by taking on President Bush, rather than his opponent. Congressional candidates followed suit... Lots of ads with B&W side by sides of the Republican nominee and GWB. So you are correct that this is a tried and true method.

    But Barack Obama didn't just rally the party faithful. He made a lot of promises about how he would govern, and what he would accomplish for the country. He set about to change the tone in Washington, change the way it does business, find consensus, etc...

    He also made a lot of promises about fixing the economy, expanding healthcare with no additional cost to the consumer, ending the war in Iraq, and making life better for the middle class. Suffices to say, he did not sell himself as an outward-looking president.

    On that front, he has been less successful. Washington seems to be operating the way it normally does, the way it did in the opening salvos of the Bush and Clinton's administrations. Obama has failed to find consensus within his own party.

    Congress found it difficult to craft legislation to match Obama's pie in the sky talk on healthcare. He has demanded of them what they cannot deliver.

    It doesn't help that the House first took time to pass the ridiculous Cap and Trade bill, to say nothing of the smaller scale, but no less ridiculous, Cash for Clunkers. If healtchcare is a life or death issue, couldn't symbolic legislation on global warming take a back seat?

    And hardly anybody now thinks the stimulus package was a good thing. It has been exposed for what it is, a pork-laden hodgepodge of incompatible economic initiatives that has done nothing to help the economy.

    Should Democrats be optimistic? Sure. Obama is going to be tough to beat in 2012, which likely means eight years of Democratic power. But in order to maintain that power, promises will be broken. For those who took seriously Obama's rhetoric about changing the way government operates, they'll just have to wait.
  • letjusticerolldown
    "O Divine Master,
    grant that I might not seek...
    to be understood but to understand..."

    Attributed to St Francis (before S Covey)

    His prayer is mucch shorter than Covey's books and lectures--and cheaper. I highly recommend it.
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