When they use words like "Healthcare reform" they should state whether they mean Obama's plans or real healthcare reform. I think most people want real healthcare reform, but this current plan is not it. It is difficult to listen to, but if you can spend an hour to listen to this, do. If you can't spend an hour, you couldn't possibly read and understand the whole plan that would take days to read, and years to understand. But fools rush in where even angels fear to tread. Things go wrong with two few counselors. Also, where are they getting their counsel? Sojourners citing ABC, CBS, and AARP, PBS as non-partisan sources? I'm surprised I must admit. And in your statement for healthcare, where is our first concern for our little murdered innocent babies. 4000 American babies who don't have healthcare or freedom to live their lives. Read again in Proverbs 6 about what an abomination it is to the Lord about hands that shed innocent blood. Won't we be held responsible by associating or agreeing with this? Won't we be held responsible by not holding back those who are led to the slaughter? His Word says we will. So, I guess we'll all have to prayerfully make our choices.

hollywd good questions . But those are not considered by the editorialists here , too bad . But we as christians get faced with these dilemas all the time and we should talk about them . But look my health insurance I have does abortions , in fact i think all the insurance for healthcare in my state is required to . Washington state we have chased many insurance companies out with mandates and regulations . Does my small amount I contribute for it be considered an abomination ? I don't feel like it is , maybe I am rationalizing . I just feel I am blessed because we have health care in our middle age years . But these things are important to discuss I agree.

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
— C.S. Lewis

Very timely. Also, "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
Goethe

This post spoke my mind. Other than FactCheck.org and Reuters, I didn't see any organization (CBS, ABC, PBS) I would consider non-partisan or that would offer any criticism of our President's plan.

Thank you, it was reconfirmed to me tonight to see several different mainstream media newsreporters saying things like we were "dumber than Joe the plumber", another comment "Angry old white people"-another said there was "No representative sample of people in the middle" "Racist, facist and stupid" were used multiple times over. This is what the main media called us for protesting against the healthcare plan. And our representatives demonize us, ridicule us, label us, condescend to us, and then bring people out to bully us physically. Force us as sole income earners, businesspeople, moms, caregivers for the sick (I am all of the above), to have to add to what we're already doing to survive, to fight this race to socialism or even communism. And talk about all these criminal czars he's hiring. His friends who idolized what Charles Manson did. What kind of insanity is this? And, I am forced to spend time, because I am more than concerned. And I speak, and I was even called names. I was told I was a racist and my thought process was all out of whack. So, then I guess the game is to throw you off balance so you have to defend something you're not. Or what you don't know. But, I know this, something's more than rotten in America. Beyond anything I've ever seen in my life.

If you watch the Newshour with Jim Lehrer you will see both sides of the issue. They also have an on-line feature if you want to ask them questions.

AMEN! This health care/insurance reform is a travesty and I don't understand how any Christian worthy of the name can possibly buy into this plan.
Many claim to be Christian and call all of us "God's children". We are all his creation but not all His children. The only thing that makes us His children is John 3:16. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Remember, even the devil and his angels believe in who He is and tremble.

Maybe some people take the words of Jesus seriously.

Matthew 25:31-46 (New International Version)
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

You sound rather pompous to me. I take all of His words seriously. I also know that including mandatory murdering of unborn babies through this system is one that we will all have to pay for. It doesn't matter what our religious convictions are! Haivng to listen to euthanasia counselling every five years and the government run doctor will be forced to pull the plug on life irregardless of the patients and families wishes. This is all true if you will only investigate. Our God would not want us to be any part of that!
Look into ConcervativeChristiansClub@Yahoo.com to get some really good information on what you think is so good.
What makes us righteous? Jesus' shed blood that covers all of us sinners. He was the only sinless One and the one way that God provided for us to enter into heaven. Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.'

I am sorry you took that as a pompous remark. I was responding to your remark about not knowing how any Christian worthy of the name could possible buy into this plan.



I have done considerable research about the issue you were concerned about and have also experienced what goes on in hospitals under our current healthcare system. That portion of the bill was written to give counseling to individuals so they would know what they might face in certain "end of life" situations. It was in no way meant to encourage people to end their own life. That is misinformation.



Go to the Library of Congress site and read the bill. You can google THOMAS to find it and click on HR3200. Then click on "text of legislation". It is difficult to read and understand and that accounts for some of the misinformation though I believe a good amount of the misinformation is purposefully misleading.



When my husband was dying of terminal cancer, in 1995, we were repeatedly ask what his intentions would be in certain events. I thought we would only be faced with those questions if he were determined to be brain dead, which he was not. When he would rouse from the considerable amount of pain medication he was being given he would still talk to us.



When I was in the hospital last year I was approached about having a living will to give specific instructions in the event of different occurences. That is routinely done in hospitals when you are seriously ill. No one wants to have to deal with these issues but they are unfortunately a fact of life under our current healthcare system.



It would have been much better to deal with those issues when we were not in such emotional turmoil and could have learned what our legal rights were (for example, whether we wanted to stay on life support forever or not) and what we were legally entitled to in our state. That was the intention of that part of the bill. As I understand, it is now being removed from the bill because it was terribly misunderstood.



As far as the issue of abortion, I am against abortion but I am also not an advocate of people being left to die without healthcare or with limited healthcare. I cannot know what is in others hearts but it is my understanding that most do not want the bill to provide for abortion with public funds even though most insurance does pay for abortion at this time.



I try not to rely on websites and discussion to determine what I believe about political issues. Like most everyone, I have ideas of what is happening based on my own experience but I have tried to read some of the actual bill to find out some of the answers. Where I cannot understand it, I try to find something that gives a better explanation. Because I have been very ill and have struggled for twenty or more years to have healthcare coverage (and do not have it at this time) I understand the suffering people go through without it.



I pray that God will open the eyes of more Christians so that they can be more aware of people's needs and try to help provide for them, as God intended. I do not object to someone having a difference of opinion about how it should be done(although the issue has been around for a very long time and should have been addressed before now) but I believe it is wrong for nothing to be done at all to relieve people's suffering.

I thank you for your heartfelt response. I, too, am ill. I have severe diabetes and the have been hospitalized and could have lost my life.
I've been in ERs, I have close friends in the medical field. I had an aunt who was from Great Britain and said that socialized medicine there was not the answer.
I am originally from Michigan and still have family and friends there. I know for a fact that many in Canada come to the U.S. for decent, immediate, and critical care that they have to wait MONTHS for there.
When doctors are paid for by the government, they are controlled by the government. There will be doctors and nurses leaving the medical field in droves and none to replace them.
Crunch some numbers and see what that would do to our healthcare system and availability of appointments.
Obama says that we will still have the option to keep our own health care system when in reality, he announced out of his own mouth in 2006 that he was for a single pay system and that would rid of us individual health care insurance because they can't compete.
My own son and daughter-in-law don't currently have health insurance and they would never want this kind of system here.
I had already looked into those places that you mentioned and found them to full of political tap dancing and outright lies.
If any part of a plan is bad (i.e. killing unborn babies) whether or not we want that part of the plan for ourselves, it is ALL bad and should be revamped.
The government has failed to run anything in our private lives well. Social Security is one issue. There are many others. I don't want the government telling me and my docotors what treatment I can receive.
With my current health insurance, I don't have to have referrals to specialists that I need. I don't have a long wait for appointments. I get good care. I don't have to pay for abortion personally. I don't have to have a doctor telling me and my family that the plug will be pulled because my life is no longer worth the cost it takes to keep me going.
Each individual/family should discuss these things ahead of time and decide for themselves what would be right for them. Not the government telling them what they must do.
Thanks for listening.

"Those places" I mentioned is the actual text of the bill before Congress. You are buying into the lies and doing yourself and others a disservice by repeating them. It doen't matter how often you repeat a lie, that doen't make it true but it can be a form of brainwashing for people who listen to it enough.

There is a good chance that the insurance you pay for also pays for abortions but you are very fortunate to have good healthcare. Many others are not that fortunate. Insurance companies are the ones who are profit oriented and employ cost benefit analysis to decide what is covered without regard to individuals needs.

As far as the president being in favor of a single payer system, that doesn't matter. President Obama does not have the final say in what is in the bill, he only negotiates and has the opportunity to veto the bill as it comes before him.

I believe in healthcare reform because I think it will help everyone. How will the lack of it help me and others who have no coverage.

I sent you a URL to click on to with opposing points of view from your own. They are also factual. ConservativeChristiansClub@yahoo.com Sign up for facebook and check out the many places of rebuttal there. How some politicians don't think it's necessary to know what it's in the bill....just sign it!
Would you sign a contract without knowing what is in it?!
I know that a president does not have the final say in what is in a bill but can veto it if it doesn't suit him.
I don't personally pay for the option of abortion in my plan. We have a choice and a voice until the government overtakes and runs our health care reform.
As I already stated, I know of the evils of socialized medicine personally and would not want that system for us here in the U.S.
It just sounds good to people like you because all you see are the roses and not the thorns.
Take off your rose-colored glasses where this is concerned and truly educate yourself on both sides of the issue.
I truly feel sorry for you and those who believe in the reform as a good thing.

You can tell all the horror stories you want about socialized medicine but it doesn't apply here. The public option being planned is not a plan like Canada's or like Great Britain's. It is a choice for those who have no insurance or who are not happy with their insurance. If you had no insurance or no choice, you would want to have that. If your insurance is good you will not have to change it.

As it stands right now in the US, it is not legal to use federal money to pay for abortion. (Read the Sojourner's "A guide to Healthcare Reform").

How do you, as a Christian, plan to address the problem of people doing without healthcare? That is just a question for thought. It seems fruitless to continue with this exchange. If anyone else wants to have a meaningful exchange about this issue, I will respond if I have any thing to offer.

I'm sorry you are having to learn about our health care system in such a first-hand way. I just want to reassure you that government run programs are not something to fear. I have been in both a state-run program and now medicare. The care I get is extrarodinary and the government is in no way invovlved in decision-making. My primary doctor arranges for all tests and specialists as needed. I have had "the talk" with my doctor about end of life procedures and was grateful to get the information to make those decisions now instead of when it might be left to friends or family. I don't wait long for appointments. I've never had to deal with anyone's opinion other than the doctors'.
On the other side of it, I worked for insurance companies for many years and I can attest that profit is the over-riding consideration in all decision-making. Health coverage is simply a product they try to make as cheaply as possible and sell at as high a price as the market will bear.

Thanks for offering that comforting information.

When President Obama began his campaign, I was hopeful that something would finally be done to improve healthcare options for me. When I started getting all those crazy untrue emails, I decided that I was not going to accept what I read without more information. That is when I started combing the internet for the truth. I think I have more confidence in President Obama than some other people do because of the knowledge that, for a time, he gave up the opportunity for a high paying job to work for the poor. Also, the fact that he mentioned the problems his mother had when she was very ill and had to struggle with the insurance company to prove she was not suffering from a pre-existing condition. He had some real experience with what people go though.

I am too aware of how difficult it is to struggle with the system to get any help you can, when you are not insured and not well. I am a somewhat shy person and having to be aggressive, just to find out what options are available to me, is difficult. I know there are many others out there who don't know where to go for help.

I have discovered that the healthcare option proposed is not scheduled to go into affect until 2013. As I understand, it was originally supposed to go into affect in 2011 but has been slowed down(due to budget constraints?). I will not get the benefit of this legislation because I will be 65 in 2013 (Praise the Lord for Medicare). It is a great disappointment to me not to have a better option where I have a choice of doctors and the ability to reach the doctor to ask a question. I continue to consider this my struggle since God allowed me to experience these difficulties. I do not question this(most of the time). It is making my faith stronger and loosing my emotional hold on this earth. I wish I could do more but my health limits me.

I appreciate the true concerns people have about how this will affect them. As a Christian, I do not think it is right to try to defeat hope for the sick and needy.

Please don't give up your search for assistance. Even if you are shy, you can do a lot of research via the internet. There may be programs in your state that you can qualify for. Two years ago I was diagnosed with a fast growing canderous tumor which had to be removed by surgery. My insurance policy had a very low limit for hospitalizaton, and no limit for outpatient treatment. I spent two precious weeks on the internet and the phone trying to find help for this surgery. Long story short, I told the nurse who was trying to schedule me for surgery why I was having to postpone it. She arranged for me to have the surgery as an outpatient. I went in an a Friday afternoon and they technically could have considered me an outpatient til Monday evening. As it turned out, I had a great surgeon. When I came to, I felt great and was home by 2 PM on Saturday.
The point of the story is that you have to just keep talking to people and searching for a way. You never know who might have the solution. In this case, ironically, the solution came from the medical side.
It was also a learning exdperience. I knew the medical/insurance system was a mess. I found out just how bad it is. It's full of administrative pencil pushers whose main job seems to be to push people away. Even the upper management and agency heads talked to either didn't know much or had the wrong information, which I was able to decipher from what I learned by way of the internet.Just getting rid of those layers upon layers of admin expense would go along way in paying for actual medical care.

Oh, Lindamarie, you've forgotten the commandment "Thou shalt not bear witness against thy neighbor." Do some research, read the bill. And then please come back and tell the truth.

You seem to be relying on other person's representations of these bills provisions. I have heard serious physicians, including the president of the AMA discussing how important it is to gerontologists and palliative specialists who want to provide the best care to older adults on pain relief, hospice care, and deciding how to correctly specify expectations OF THE PATIENT to the medical system. They are hoping that there could be some compensation for these important conversations Go here to hear this discussion:

http://www.prodevassociates.com/Pallitative.htm
This my own website where I have provided a link to a discussion and powerpoint presentation on these issues. I am a follower of Jesus too - we must seek the truth and not spread gossip.

"Sojourners citing ABC, CBS, and AARP, PBS as non-partisan sources? I'm surprised I must admit."

Amen. Don't they realize that Fox News is the only real non-partisan source?