By the way, for those interested, I delve more into the Gospel rationale behind the above article here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/10/greed-ame...

I'm planning on delving deeper into the implicications for Jubilee economics in the weeks to come.

By the way, for those interested, I delve more into the Gospel rationale behind the above article here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2009/10/greed-ame...

I'm planning on delving deeper into the implicications for Jubilee economics in the weeks to come.

Regards,
Tony
http://www.foreclosurelistings.com/

People misunderstand me all the time because they automatically assume that I'm suggesting a policy shift or some sort of coercive system. Rather, my call is almost always for us to start voluntarily living into the Jubilee vision of Christ…starting where we can and going from there.

Thanks Mark I did mis read what you were saying . I know in the Book of Acts much of what you say happened . The story of the Husband and wife holding out and falling dead , They were the modern day republicanns . ;0) Seriously though without Christ the system that supports Jubilee could be communistic or socialist also , without Christ at the head of the system , heart ache and lower living standards increases instead of decreases from a historical perspective . I think that is the problem with what i see placing those principles in a modern government system . How many people who receive aid from the government now feel thankfull or blessed by God , or feel the need to walk up to a taxpayer and say thanks for helping me out .
They may thank a political party , an idol actually from a Bibical perspective . Kind of idealogy on my part I guess. Anyway thanks for responding . You got a good heart .

When Jesus preached, he often employed Jubilee language to shape the imaginations of his readers. He did that with other areas as well. It would perhaps be better to leave talk of obeying the OT out of this conversation, because my only reason for referring to Jubilee laws was because it helps us understand what Jesus was articulating. In other words, we have so softened the teachings of Jesus, sometimes it is helpful to go back and read his words in light of the OT imagery that he was employing.

hey minnesotan, always like when you show up around here . Hope all is well ?

My take on any law , homosexual or Jubilee law from the OT is it is not suppose to be something to be obeyed now . Not from the OT Text anyway . If you live and use one aspect of the Law , you have to live by all the law . Homosexual and sexual immorality is in Romans and other parts of the Bible that explain the dangers of sexual sin . I got your anology though , why pick and choose which laws to obey and which ones you don't . Jesus nailed the Pharisees good on that , and funny how we still do it . All of us even , its like all denominations have sins that are worse then others . Don't Judge others , unless they work in a bank or vote for a pro choice candidate .

Forgiving debt is not a law that was for the one owing only anyway , their is a spirtual gain to forgiving other debts for the person who is doing the forgiving . Forcing people to this is un Bibical even 3000 years ago . . The wrong part here is people using this concept to promote political agendas , that is wrong . Ireland , The Crusades, and history book of reasons this is a no no .

Many people were hurt by the loans made , I have two people at work who have been , one is going bankrupt . But get this , the person drives a new car . I paid off my house , but I never owned a new car . I guess that is where your coming from and I agree , some people were taken in , but yikes they still lived better then they should have for a while . And they should not be living in the home they purchased based on their economic choices , the only reason some are is because they goofed and the governemnt is bailing them out . Helping out is one thing , but remaining in homes they can not afford by the standards we others live by is just wrong .

. You do not want to have a policy that makes those people who purchase homes they could afford , who live in a smaller perhaps not as up to date home or car , and make them use their tax money to make it all come out alright .

I am not sure what the answer is , because we all make mistakes , but lets not make it so people can live with no need to be responsible either . That will make it eventually so bad we will not have enough of us old penny pinchers bailing them out .

Mark the Jubilee was never practiced in Israel from what I have learned . But that in neither here or there I guess. . It was in
the law Given by Moses , but like many of the Laws it was not carried out . I believe a Pope started the practice in Christian practices around the 1300's ?

Also to your point of coercing others to monetarily forgive debtors is not in my Bibical understanding . A big aspect of the Jubilee was not just for the debtors forgiven , but it was for those who are doing the forgiving . Its a two part spirtual concept with eternal rewards I agree , if we all agreed to it . I am not sure it is working unless we were all believers though , and then we would have to be all behaving like Christians .
Can you imagin forcing people to do this ? We can not stop abortions in this culture, prayers are not allowed in schools where we send our kids,
you be tarred and feathered as intolerant and hatefull.

My problem with coercing any law from the Torah is as Paul taught us . If we are obliged to the Law , we have to obey all the Law . The teaching was quite extensive on this because the Christians who were Jews were trying to make out like the non Jewish Christians were sinning for eating different foods and such .

Anyway look forward to this , if nothing so I can see where you coming from . I like the idea of second chances , but to coerce people into obeying Jewish laws given to Moses by God does take away from the Mercy and Grace In Christ from my Faith Understanding .

Now if you want to help people every year instead of just the year of the Jubilee , now you got me where we both can agree . ;0)

I think calling lenders “predatory” goes too far. It suggests fraud. Most borrowers voluntarily got in over their heads and should not be bailed out. The exceptions must not influence the decision of the rule.

I think “getting in the way of evictions” is an attempt to put pressure on politicians, perhaps to force banks to write off foreclosures?

Honestly, I have a hard time identifying how Rosemary was treated unjustly. She had a rough break, and many around her are having a rough time, too. But that is not an injustice.

There are all kinds of ethical angles on this. The reality is–someone must pay the bill for Jubilee. In South Minneapolis there are probably 100,000 who have taken a severe hit financially through the crisis. And there are probably 100,000 (many Christians) who pocketed a whole lot of cash in the run-up of housing prices. Lenders handed out money–based on people signing over their incomes for 30 years. Everyone's in the game–everyone risks.

And now we don't like the rules.

I know I don't.

But it looks to me like the frontline, non-violent action is going to have to be sacrificial love.

I'd love to hold the mortgage company responsible (i.e. Countrywide) to work-out a solution with my friend in S Mpls facing foreclosure. But wait–they are already forced out of business–rescued by Citiibank.. Which may collapse.

And at this point how do we all act? We each choose the options which will play to our best benefit. We are still taking risk–based on the shifting rules of the game.

If we don't enforce the rules–to whom do you wish to grant the power to choose not to enforce?? On what basis? Who gets the power to draft new rules?? How long do they stay in effect?? Who pays the cost of redemption?

But basically (and I hope to get into this more later when I have time), the issues isn't “how does what God did with the Jubilee in the Old Testament apply to Rosemary Williams” but instead “what is the economic 'system' or 'reality' Jesus (inspired by Sabbath economic laws) calling us (the Church) into and how do we relate to Rosemary Williams in light of that calling?

There is a lot of difference between these two questions. In the end, it means creating “an equitable society where we don't have yucky imbalances of wealth”–that society is the Kingdom of God. And we are called to radically live into that society even as we dwell in the shadow of oppressive systems. How do we negotiate our presence in both this Kingdom and in these oppresive systems? To me, it means creating opportunities to live into the former while resisting and naming the evil of the latter.

Rosemary Williams wasn't the “owner” of this house in the OT sense that I described above. The lender is the “owner” in this scenario. I feel like you're redefining the term “Jubilee” in a way that I don't understand (perhaps I need to read some books which explain this redefinition).

In hearing some of the news reports on this case one thing stood out to me. There was a crowd chanting something to the effect of “Housing is a human right”. That is a fine statement. But I am not sure that living in a house that one cannot afford is a human right.

All that being said, I am 100% in favor of using all our means as Jesus-folk to create an equitable society where we don't have yucky imbalances of wealth. I am just not sure that this particular situation makes a ton of sense.

I could be very wrong.