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God's Politics

Video: Colbert on the ‘Desert Cross’ Church-State Controversy

by Ryan Rodrick Beiler 10-16-2009

091016-stephen-colbertI had invited one of our regular bloggers to comment on the “desert cross” controversy–a Supreme Court case deciding the appropriateness of a cross erected on Mojave National Preserve to honor World War I dead. I haven’t heard back yet, but I thought that a Christian from a nonviolence perspective might have some unique insights as to whether or not a cross is an appropriate symbol for a public monument to those killed in battle. I suggested that we might find some common ground with Southern Baptist leader Al Mohler, who takes issue with Justice Antonin Scalia’s assertion that the cross is merely a generic secular symbol for honoring the dead. Says Mohler:

Christians should reject any argument that presents the cross as a secular symbol. There is nothing remotely secular about the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

To that I say, “amen.” And not merely because the cross of Christ is anything but a secular symbol, but because the kind of death it signifies is not merely one sacrificing one’s life for others–which our Just War friends may affirm as a valid parallel to the death of a soldier. I would assert instead that the cross of Christ represents the precise opposite way of giving one’s life for others–to be willing to die, but not to kill.

But before I lay down any more oh-so-serious theology of nonviolence, I’ll let another big-name theologian take a crack at this controversy. In his Tuesday night “The Word” segment, Stephen Colbert makes some strong arguments of his own regarding the true meaning of the cross–including a near-complete recitation of the Nicene Creed. When was the last time you heard that on TV?

Ryan Rodrick Beiler is the Web Editor for Sojourners and a photographer whose work can be seen at www.ryanrodrickbeiler.com.

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  • I meant no one bothers defending the Vietnam War as just.
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    I should have mentioned that I am a Vietnam Veteran.

    The US Military wasn't defending Vietnam as we know it today. They were only "defending" South Vietnam.
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    If Steven Colbert tells a lie on the show and claims that it is true and he swears an oath including God as his witness to being truthful, you might say "Colbert took God's name in vain."

    God the Father's name is not "God." He told Moses what his name was and still is.
  • Eric77
    I took your advice and went back and read the relevant portion of the transcript. I think we'll have to wait for written comments to get even a clear glimpse of what Scalia thinks. His comments are not exactly clear - the exchange between him and the lawyer is brief and interjected into another discussion between Roberts and the lawyer.

    Also, he doesn't even use the phrase "secular symbol" to describe the cross. Someone, either Colbert or Ryan Beiler, put the word "secular" into his mouth. Scalia says it's a common symbol and he presumes that the people who put it there meant to honor all the war dead, not just the Christians. That's the only argument Scalia appears to be making. He's basically saying Jews shouldn't feel unrepresented by it because the VFW meant to honor all dead with it.

    Now I can understand why the Jewish group might want something else, or their own memorial, but I don't see Scalia arguing that the cross is simply a secular symbol.
  • Eric77
    I think Letjustice makes a good point about how different people could hold different meanings or views of the cross. To some, it has deep Christian meaning but to others it's just a generic symbol that we use to memorialize the dead.

    I don't really care that much about words on our currency or the pledge. What I care about is if we started stripping all crosses, depictions of religious figures, 10 Commandment displays, etc from the public square no matter how long they've been there or who put them there. That appears to be the objective of a small vocal minority in this country who are perpetually taking offense at things.

    I think I agree with you about Colbert's take in this instance. He makes a good point and his recitation of the creed is well done.
  • Mennoman
    Yeah, it might be a good idea to read it because he was making just that argument-- that it is a secular symbol. The statement was not taken out of context. He was being obnoxious and contrary. Really not out of character for him. Really what Scalia "thinks" is irrelevant. Judges aren't supposed to bring their biases to the court, right? Like the "Latina woman" controversy surrounding Sotomayor.
  • pjalama
    I don't recall any commandment "Thou shalt not use dirty words." IIRC, it's "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain" -- i.e., don't call on God to back up a lie. I'm not sure when it became an axiom that pious Christians shouldn't use crude terms for bodily functions.
  • Yeah, no one bothers defending Vietnam anymore. The Democrats did it and now would probably have a hard time declaring any war just. The Republicans of today probably would have done it...

    As for Iraq... It sure doesn't fit any of your requirements, although if Bush lied I could make a case for economic warfare (price gouging). I suppose 1940s Japan could take that route too. Or I could go with Bush's claim that Afghanistan and Iraq are essentially the same, but in that case I woulda picked Iran instead. So yeah, even though we're kinda close we already know it's ugly.
  • RadicalChristianLibrarian
    Interesting question- about minding if a Muslim or Buddhist symbol were at issue, rather than the Cross. I think there would be less interest on both sides of the argument, honestly- I don't think it would be an issue. Or, quite possibly, I could see both sides switching positions- Christians fighting to have it taken down, non-Christians or extreme separation of church and state people fighting to keep it there. Which should make all parties evaluate their true motivations, IMO.
  • RadicalChristianLibrarian
    Yes, that is what I meant- long before Jesus lived on earth.
  • RadicalChristianLibrarian
    What is the point of fighting to keep the Cross there if it has no meaning? I don't think the ends justify the means, but you're right- it's a matter up for debate. If the ACLU and the litigants want to argue that the right to offend only applies to private citizens and not to government, I say let them- I think they'd lose.

    I'm offended by a lot of what the government does. Does that give me legal grounds on which to sue? The point is that there is no legal right not to be offended and I don't think this would hold up in court, whether it is a private citizen or the government doing the offending.

    I don't want the Cross in the desert taken down, for personal reasons, and for reasons protected by the Constitution. And I realize my line of reasoning could lead to the extremes you and letjusticerolldown outline. I don't want to go there either- where the possibility of all references to religious belief are stricken from the public sphere. To reiterate, I believe that complete removal violates freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

    Personally, it wouldn't bother me if the words "In God We Trust" were removed from money, or if the words "under God" were removed from the pledge of allegiance. It does bother me when freedom of religious expression is infringed upon and when arguments that nullify the meaning of religious expression are used to defend it. (If that makes any sense).

    About Stephen Colbert, I think this particular segment is not a cheap shot, although, as I said above, I think he is often too tough on Christians in the Word segments. I believe this one is an exception. (For example, he sticks it to extreme secularists or atheists, can't remember which, with the written "smugness" comment). And I agree, it's an intriguing and hilarious take and I would wager it's on the "intellectually deep" side.
  • BuckeyeDon
    "A real Believer in Christ Jesus would not use filthy language on his TV show, even if he were doing a comedy satire of the news."

    Sorry, Joe. Your defense doesn't cut it.

    Who says Colbert isn't a "real Believer in Christ Jesus"? Just because you are offended by his language, you have the authority to play God? How did you obtain the wisdom of God to be able to know who is a "real Believer in Christ Jesus"?

    And to reiterate: whether true or not, in this context your calling Colbert a hypocrite is ad hominem, because you haven't tried to refute anything he has said. You are relying on your allegation that he's a hypocrite to make your case against him. That won't work. You have to give us reasons why his arguments are wrong. And you haven't done that.
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    The Christ existed long before the Earth existed. You mean "long before Jesus lived on earth." The Son of God's name is not "Christ." "Christ" is Jesus' heavenly position title.

    One can criticize the hypocrisy of of the political religion "Christianity" since that's not in the Bible either. But, one doesn't have to use "cuss" words and filthy language to do so.

    Jesus used strong words to criticize the hypocrisy of many of the Pharisees; but, he didn't even use any filthy language or off-color euphemisms to do so.
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    A "just war" would be one where another country declared war on your country and you fought back defending your country.

    The George W. Bush Administration folks had their preacher speech writers proof-text Scriptures from the Old Testament to justify declaring war on Iraq.

    My father's brother's two sons were Conscientious Objectors. One was drafted before the Vietnam Conflict started and the other near the end of it. They belonged to a non-Trinitarian Pentecostal church which backed their CO status. The older one went to Germany and the younger never left the States. Both of them became medics.

    I was drafted; but, I didn't claim CO status. I did attend an Assembly of God and the denomination did have chaplains. I didn't know it at the time; but, the General Council of the Assemblies of God will support a person if he claims CO status if he were to be drafted. I definitely know that now.

    The Vietnam Conflict was not a just war either. Neither North Vietnam nor the United States had declared war on each other.
  • Ivriniel
    Given that Steven Colbert is playing a character on his show, I imagine his demeanor in Sunday School is rather different.

    The only part of the Sermon on the Mount that is about language has to do with the swearing of oaths.

    In any case, in all love, might I suggest that perhaps you might like to review Matthew 7:1-7?
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    I wouldn't want filthy mouthed Steven Colbert teaching any Sunday School class.

    Of course, since he claims to be a Roman Catholic, his priest must let him do that.

    If he really knew what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, found in Matthew chapters 5 through 7 (and the rest of His ministry), he would clean up his language.
  • Joe_Allen_Doty
    Since the word actually just means "actor," and Stephen Colbert is a professional actor, I'm not doing name calling when I say he is a hypocrite on his show.

    He gives one argument on his "WORD" segment and he is shown on the left side of the screen. The "WORD" side of the screen usually has words which mocks what he says with another argument.

    A real Believer in Christ Jesus would not use filthy language on his TV show, even if he were doing a comedy satire of the news.
  • pilgrimboy: So why is police action just? Why do the same reasons not apply to war? And I'm assuming that a defensive war would be just? Or should the able-bodied allow their own families to become slaves? Would retaliation likewise be just? What about a pre-emptive strike of a self-proclaimed threat? We all know that war is horrible, but where do you draw the line?
  • letjusticerolldown
    And a step further, should the government be constrained from erecting, or being connected with, or affirming in any way, any assignment of worth/value (i.e. worshipping) to anything larger than itself???

    Faith is simply that in what one ultimately places their trust. Religion is a particular form/structure for a kind of faith.

    But it is impossible to hold to a pure abstraction. Once one exercises faith--it takes a form (a religion).

    Pushing government to an extreme application of the non-establishment clause is to argue for a complete obliteration of exercising of any faith connected to a government asset. How can one name a city Saint Paul, or Los Angeles without establishing the expression of a faith? How could we allow a soldier to pray in battle and possibly convey to the next soldier in the foxhole that there was some connection between God and the battle they are in?

    Death is one of those times we are confronted with whether there is anything beyond. Do we want a government expending lives on wars in the name of God? Do we want government expending lives on wars as if those lives did not belong to God; as if there is nothing else beyond the State? Do we want a State that demands religious persons to support a state that demands no acknowldegement of anything beyond itself? Is not a relationship of religious persons to a secular state a violation of separation?

    I frankly don't think there are answers. Overall I think the Supreme Court has handled the issue fairly well. The problem I see is that the usual litigants are pushing and waging arguments that we don't want carried to ultimate conclusions--which pushes justices to make counterpoints which are also ill-considered (e.g. what Scalia said)

    I think A Mohler raises a very important consideration as to who the Court gives standing in waging these fights.

    I don't think anyone owns the cross. It is symbol with multiple meanings. I don't think it helps for Christians to act like it belongs to us or can mean only one thing.

    I wear a Nike clothes and shoes because the Biblical use of "nike" refers to the power which gives victory over the principalities and powers of death. I would not expect most owners of Nike shoes to have that meaning in mind; nor would I expect the City of Boston to ban the display of the Nike logo while marathon runners traverse the public streets of Boston.

    It is perfectly reasonable to argue one meaning of the cross is a secular nation's taking of a common religious symbol to mark a "life lived (i.e. deceased person)" as having meaning beyond the State. That does not mean it is a Christian symbol. It does not mean it is a secular symbol. It does not mean it is a symbol of a civic faith. It is an acknowledgement that there is something more. That does not take away Christians' freedom to find much more meaning in their own displays of the cross.

    If I were to look at the crosses at Gettysburg I would find great offense if I thought of them as some attempt to advance or establish a Christian religion or even of a "Christian nation" honoring their dead. I do not think the display of the cross on public grounds is an assertion of the Nicene Creed.
  • Eric77
    I agree with Mohler completely. But the ACLU et al will argue that the right to offend only applies to private citizens (at least I hope they wouldn't argue private citizens' speech should be curtailed when it offends), not to the government, and in this case, it's the government that is doing the offending by allowing a cross on federal land. While I don't like where Scalia's reasoning leads, it's essentially true that much of our society views the cross as a secular symbol and if we remove it from this land there's nothing to stop it and any other Christian reference from being removed from any government property or building. Would that be a good thing or bad? And if that would be a bad thing, do the ends justify the means of keeping them there? It's up for debate...

    Colbert's take on it is amusing and intriguing at the same time. It's either a cheap shot or pretty intellectually deep. I'm not sure which, which is part of what makes Colbert interesting to me.
  • This article and Colbert's response encouraged me to post a piece of my Thesis on COs During WWII. This brief section deals with WWI and the justifications for war.

    http://regansravings.blogspot.com/2009/10/deser...

    Please let me know what you think.
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