"The point is, and I think you are missing this, these kids are fervently praying for our president." Squeaky

I beg to differ, Squeaker. I think these are easily influenced kids who know they're on camera (watch the boys on the left looking around) and therefore there's an element of acting involved. I think Jesus referred to it as "praying on the street corner."

Yup. You made the same point I did. Guess I wasn't clear enough.

Or perhaps O'Brien IS a right wing fundamentalist, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil. Misguided (in our opinion) on some issues, but as long as we demonize the right we are simply doing what we accuse them of doing to us. I think Aaron is a wonderful voice at Sojo.net, someone who genuinely loves the evangelical charismatic group that many of us are a little afraid of and will hopefully help us find common ground in Christ.

As for altering stereotypes, their is a phrase I heard a while back that has altered the way I view others and even myself: "The rules change when you like someone." I can have all sorts of ideas about a group or subculture, and often encounter an individual from that group that runs counter to my perceptions. On my more stubborn days, I assume that person is a remarkable exception and hold on to my overall stereotypes. On my better days, I recognize that perhaps the "exception" is only such in my own mind.

You say the portrayal of O'Brien and his family as right-wing fundamentalists is off-base, as if he is a shining beacon of rational thought within a morass of ignorance. Perhaps your perception of right-wing fundamentalists is off-base.

Thankfully--God's eyes are turned on our hearts (although that also sends some fear up and down my spine) and our eyes see the outward forms.

Interestingly, (to me anyway) the forms mean both nothing and they mean everything.

If we fail to give form to God's activity in our hearts--faith is dead.

If we give form to God's activity in our hearts and think the form is God's activity--faith is dead.

How do we express and give witness to a wonderful God? Forms.

If someone adapts a form because they love our witness--have they found life? No.

But the practice of the form might position them for God's spirit.

A gift of the charismatic/pentecostal unit in Christianity has been the turning our attention again to the precious ministry of the Spirit God. One theologian referred to the Holy Spirit as the "Go-Between-God."

It is a great gift to have a God that recreates new life in us daily--inviting us and forming our lives to both give expression and access Chris't love. And it is a gift to have brothers and sisters whose lives are being formed in many different shapes and forms--so together we might manifest a glimpse of God's glory--a peek at the glorioius light which displaces a great darkness.

I thank God for young persons in devoted conversation with the Divine; for leaders who nurture them in this journey, for a Jesus who somehow manages to be more holy than all of us combined and more embracing than we often are of each other, for a President and for each of you who woke up this morning saying "Yes" to the invitations of the Spirit.

I believe the blog post primarily asks us not to slot each other into stereotypical compartments. And it might be the writer considered Jesus Camp to be doing that to 10s of millions of Christians. That is the point of a stereotype: to take an image of one and project it onto a mass.

Seems to me like they're praying just like millions/10s of millions of Christians do around the world. Who cares if some small random movie used a similar form to show some small group in a bad light?

Hey squeaky and Ray_A, just wanted to say i've found your dialogue refreshing and informative. too often i read this blog and am left just sighing at the lack of willingness to hear each other out without judgement and cyncism. so thanks for being a great witness and model for this blog, even if you don't agree on everything!

Thanks,

"I just wish someone was there to tell me you can pray fervently without repetitious (we may still disagree on this) words or swaying. "

Yah, well I agree with that one. My experience with that kind of denomination was there was a certain way to worship or pray. I was never comfortable with it because it wasn't who I am, but I was basically told to get outside my comfort zone.

But, I think for some of those kids it is also the passion and fervency of youth. Faith is new and exciting for them, and they truly believe their prayers are moving mountains. Sometimes I miss those days--Faith seemed a lot simpler then--you know, back in the olden days when everything was in black and white.

Have a good weekend!

Your point is well taken, although to answer your rhetorical question a friend can judge motives; even if they're wrong, they can get away with it if they say it right.

how can limited mortal man (with any accuracy) judge another's motives? aisi, they have a difference in customs. let us take care lest we find ourselves condemning the guiltless... selah.

don't know if your misperception is intentional or just can't be helped... tis not a matter of flaunting anything. tis a matter of utmost humility in refusing to assume that i 'know best' for another, instead, honoring the self-governance granted to each one by our great and grand Father. selah :)

You make some good points, and I absolutely don't want to crush anyone's spirit.
I just wish someone was there to tell me you can pray fervently without repetitious (we may still disagree on this) words or swaying. I do think style may be connected to substance..but I'll leave it at that =)

Listening to the prayers again I can definitely hear an entirely different tone than what has typically been shown to Obama, and yea it is refreshing.

Blessings.

It builds up the church because this week I got the "Letter from a 4th Grade Teacher" from a fellow Christian (I described it in an earlier post). I'm appalled that my fellow Christian thinks that woman's words were in any way Christ-like. So I sent him this video in hopes that he would see what we, as Christians, are called to do for our leaders.

I don't see this as a video that is a witness to the world, but rather a witness to our fellow Christians. Many of my own Christian friends are very negative towards Obama and have bought into the hateful rhetoric that has been leveled towards him. It builds the church because it reminds us that we are called to pray for our leaders whether we agree with them or not.

The point that this is "so that people can see them" is a bit concerning. I would have preferred it had been posted to the Christian version of YouTube (can't remember what it is called), as you are right--it invites ridicule from those who don't understand. This to me seems more a matter for Christians rather than non-Christians and more a convicting video for those who have been less than respectful or Christlike to our president.

"Why not pray for people with more power than the president, like Congress or The Supreme Court?"

Because we are called to pray for ALL in authority. We are not called to pray only for those who have the most authority.

They aren't babbling repetitiously. They aren't repeating the same prayer over and over. You're beef concerns style, not substance. Jesus was concerned about substance, not style. Having been in circles that pray that way and having prayed that way myself, I know that repeating "Lord" like that is an unconscious habit, and that's all. It's not what Jesus meant when he spoke of vain repetitions.

I didn't see it as a stunt because I'm not familiar with the other video, thus I guess I am less inclined to read such motives into this video.

I agree with your last point, and I too carry a lot of baggage from that experience. But having judged others for how they pray has too often blinded me to the heart behind the prayer, and I'm not going to turn around and do it to the people who are still in the Christian circles I came out of. It's tempting to do so, but I remember their hearts, even if I don't agree with the style of prayer.

Put yourself in the kid's shoes--I was one of those kids once, and I know when I prayed like that I felt like I was storming the gates of Heaven. I would be absolutely crushed if someone who doesn't even know me were to question my motives or say my prayer doesn't count because of how I was praying. If it were me, and I heard that criticism, I probably would have stopped praying aloud, given my introverted and self-conscious nature. How would you feel if you knew you stifled someone's prayer life or passion for the Lord in that way? Kids self-impressions are very fragile--be careful in your passion for what is "right" you don't crush the budding spirit within them.

No, I am saying: Not all behaviour edifies, though said behavour may (possibly) be lawful.

It would be well to look at Mathew 6:5-15 for Jesus' instruction on prayer. This is not "rules". I'm not saying there are specific "rules" to prayer, but Jesus gives explicit instruction. This video shows "praying..so that people can see them" and "babbling repetitiously".
How does this build up the church? How does this witness to the lost?
If this was a stunt to reverse the "Jesus Camp" video, why make it look like the same video with a different cut out?
Why not pray for people with more power than the president, like Congress or The Supreme Court?

I too came out of a charismatic fellowship and began seeing how loosely we held theology and sound doctrine and I regret passing that on to people I witnessed to and fellowshipped with.

Maybe they're leading by example? The act of doing so for prayer is, strictly speaking, unscriptural. Just the same, the lesson is a needed one.

So prayer doesn't edify?

Would you prefer these kids didn't pray for Obama at all? You seem to be saying, "pray the right way, or don't pray at all." Is that what you mean to say?

I've always thought the constant repetition of "God" or "Lord" had the same function as the word "um" in speech. It's not really a conscious insertion, but an unconscious insertion. Many people probably don't even realize they do it, much as most people giving speeches don't realize they are inserting "um" at every pause. At least that was why I would do it while praying aloud.

It's not easy, at least not for me, as an introvert, to pray in front of people. Usually I'm spending the whole time thinking of what to pray, and the last thing I'm thinking of is whether or not I'm inserting "God" between every sentence.

idk - theyre praying just like they did on the "jesus camp" movie and doesn;t it seems like they're just looking for attention?

This video did indeed shatter some stereotypes that I had. Thank you for posting it.