Comments on: Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/ A Blog by Jim Wallis and Friends Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:42:28 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin | The Just Life http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97356 Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin | The Just Life Thu, 12 Nov 2009 09:09:31 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97356 [...] Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin The Just Life | Nov 12, 2009 | 0 comments [...] [...] Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin The Just Life | Nov 12, 2009 | 0 comments [...]

]]> By: Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin | The Just Life http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97331 Missing from Wall Street’s Calculations: Sin | The Just Life Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:05:59 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97331 [...] Read full original post. Share and Enjoy: [...] [...] Read full original post. Share and Enjoy: [...]

]]> By: scottvolltrauer http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-111151 scottvolltrauer Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:47:58 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-111151 "Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them. Humans are inherently rational, they argued. Given them better information will, in the long term, lead to better choices. The idea that humans are sinners was left out of their models."<br><br>Yes, if they had spent much time with people their perspective would be different. Sadly, many, perhaps most, people are driven more by their ambitions, hopes, dreams and fears that may be remote from a common understanding of "inherently rational." “Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them. Humans are inherently rational, they argued. Given them better information will, in the long term, lead to better choices. The idea that humans are sinners was left out of their models.”

Yes, if they had spent much time with people their perspective would be different. Sadly, many, perhaps most, people are driven more by their ambitions, hopes, dreams and fears that may be remote from a common understanding of “inherently rational.”

]]> By: Joshua Case | Sin on Wallstreet? http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97308 Joshua Case | Sin on Wallstreet? Wed, 11 Nov 2009 17:43:58 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97308 [...] I’m not sure I want to agree with this guy, but I thought I would put it out here before comme... Seems way too simplistic. Believe me, if you do not comment, I’ve got some stuff to say. Expect Marx, Rerum Novarum, and a little DP (david pacini). JC Send to FacebookRelated Ways to Take Action: Ernesto : Peru [...] [...] I’m not sure I want to agree with this guy, but I thought I would put it out here before comme… Seems way too simplistic. Believe me, if you do not comment, I’ve got some stuff to say. Expect Marx, Rerum Novarum, and a little DP (david pacini). JC Send to FacebookRelated Ways to Take Action: Ernesto : Peru [...]

]]> By: titopoet http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-111152 titopoet Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:06:34 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-111152 Thank you for your reply. The article is not making the claim that socialism is better then Capitalism. It was nothing to do with that debate. I believe in Capitalism. It is a critique of the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH). EMH has been around only since the 1960s and was the dominate model is understanding HOW the markets work. Right now the field is revising its understanding of HOW the markets work and the EMH is being challenged. Not all economists were EMH advocates, EMH was the most dominate theory in the last forty years, and many of the Wall Street brass bought into it, hired EMH economists, invested on EMH premises and are now paying the price for it. It is interesting to see how some of the business leaders who did not buy into EMH are doing quit well in the current economy. (Great capitalists tend to be less theorists and more pragmatists.) Economic theory is fascinating, but I don't think that EMH factored in human nature, which led to an overreaching, which is the point of the article. <br><br>Christian Anthropology is a powerful tool the church seldom uses. Our check and balance system came about through many of our founding fathers understanding this Christian insight into human nature... don't put your trust in Jerks. We, Christian, are aware that we are all sinners, which is simple language means we, Christians, should now we are all Jerks. (Yes, I know I am a Jerk and I need Jesus to transcend my jerkdom)<br><br>After all the Church could be characterized as "Jerks for Jesus." Thank you for your reply. The article is not making the claim that socialism is better then Capitalism. It was nothing to do with that debate. I believe in Capitalism. It is a critique of the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH). EMH has been around only since the 1960s and was the dominate model is understanding HOW the markets work. Right now the field is revising its understanding of HOW the markets work and the EMH is being challenged. Not all economists were EMH advocates, EMH was the most dominate theory in the last forty years, and many of the Wall Street brass bought into it, hired EMH economists, invested on EMH premises and are now paying the price for it. It is interesting to see how some of the business leaders who did not buy into EMH are doing quit well in the current economy. (Great capitalists tend to be less theorists and more pragmatists.) Economic theory is fascinating, but I don't think that EMH factored in human nature, which led to an overreaching, which is the point of the article.

Christian Anthropology is a powerful tool the church seldom uses. Our check and balance system came about through many of our founding fathers understanding this Christian insight into human nature… don't put your trust in Jerks. We, Christian, are aware that we are all sinners, which is simple language means we, Christians, should now we are all Jerks. (Yes, I know I am a Jerk and I need Jesus to transcend my jerkdom)

After all the Church could be characterized as “Jerks for Jesus.”

]]> By: scottvolltrauer http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97311 scottvolltrauer Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:47:58 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97311 "Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them. Humans are inherently rational, they argued. Given them better information will, in the long term, lead to better choices. The idea that humans are sinners was left out of their models."<br><br>Yes, if they had spent much time with people their perspective would be different. Sadly, many, perhaps most, people are driven more by their ambitions, hopes, dreams and fears that may be remote from a common understanding of "inherently rational." “Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them. Humans are inherently rational, they argued. Given them better information will, in the long term, lead to better choices. The idea that humans are sinners was left out of their models.”

Yes, if they had spent much time with people their perspective would be different. Sadly, many, perhaps most, people are driven more by their ambitions, hopes, dreams and fears that may be remote from a common understanding of “inherently rational.”

]]> By: titopoet http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97296 titopoet Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:06:34 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97296 Thank you for your reply. The article is not making the claim that socialism is better then Capitalism. It was nothing to do with that debate. I believe in Capitalism. It is a critique of the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH). EMH has been around only since the 1960s and was the dominate model is understanding HOW the markets work. Right now the field is revising its understanding of HOW the markets work and the EMH is being challenged. Not all economists were EMH advocates, EMH was the most dominate theory in the last forty years, and many of the Wall Street brass bought into it, hired EMH economists, invested on EMH premises and are now paying the price for it. It is interesting to see how some of the business leaders who did not buy into EMH are doing quit well in the current economy. (Great capitalists tend to be less theorists and more pragmatists.) Economic theory is fascinating, but I don't think that EMH factored in human nature, which led to an overreaching, which is the point of the article. <br><br>Christian Anthropology is a powerful tool the church seldom uses. Our check and balance system came about through many of our founding fathers understanding this Christian insight into human nature... don't put your trust in Jerks. We, Christian, are aware that we are all sinners, which is simple language means we, Christians, should now we are all Jerks. (Yes, I know I am a Jerk and I need Jesus to transcend my jerkdom)<br><br>After all the Church could be characterized as "Jerks for Jesus." Thank you for your reply. The article is not making the claim that socialism is better then Capitalism. It was nothing to do with that debate. I believe in Capitalism. It is a critique of the Efficient Market Hypothesis (EMH). EMH has been around only since the 1960s and was the dominate model is understanding HOW the markets work. Right now the field is revising its understanding of HOW the markets work and the EMH is being challenged. Not all economists were EMH advocates, EMH was the most dominate theory in the last forty years, and many of the Wall Street brass bought into it, hired EMH economists, invested on EMH premises and are now paying the price for it. It is interesting to see how some of the business leaders who did not buy into EMH are doing quit well in the current economy. (Great capitalists tend to be less theorists and more pragmatists.) Economic theory is fascinating, but I don't think that EMH factored in human nature, which led to an overreaching, which is the point of the article.

Christian Anthropology is a powerful tool the church seldom uses. Our check and balance system came about through many of our founding fathers understanding this Christian insight into human nature… don't put your trust in Jerks. We, Christian, are aware that we are all sinners, which is simple language means we, Christians, should now we are all Jerks. (Yes, I know I am a Jerk and I need Jesus to transcend my jerkdom)

After all the Church could be characterized as “Jerks for Jesus.”

]]> By: dlowen http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97288 dlowen Wed, 11 Nov 2009 10:43:35 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97288 It doesn't matter what economic system you layer on top of humanity, PEOPLE are arrogant in believing they can control things as God does. Capitalism does not "recognize. the imperfectiblity of humankind." Only people can do that. We should purge all socialism from our government? Goodbye Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Interstate Highway System, bridges, dams, food stamps, farm subsidies, hydroelectric power generation, public school system, etc., etc., etc.<br><br>Is there any economic system actually described in the New Testament? Let's see, "Everyone around was in awe—all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person's need was met." Acts 2:43-45. Oops, that's communism.<br><br>Let's look at the US Constitution then. Let's just base our economic system on what the founders had in mind. No one can actually live like that utopian NT. Let's see, "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." Well that sounds like socialism. Never mind. <br><br>It's just self evident that capitalism is godly and all other -isms are ungodly. Let's just leave it at that. It doesn't matter what economic system you layer on top of humanity, PEOPLE are arrogant in believing they can control things as God does. Capitalism does not “recognize. the imperfectiblity of humankind.” Only people can do that. We should purge all socialism from our government? Goodbye Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Interstate Highway System, bridges, dams, food stamps, farm subsidies, hydroelectric power generation, public school system, etc., etc., etc.

Is there any economic system actually described in the New Testament? Let's see, “Everyone around was in awe—all those wonders and signs done through the apostles! And all the believers lived in a wonderful harmony, holding everything in common. They sold whatever they owned and pooled their resources so that each person's need was met.” Acts 2:43-45. Oops, that's communism.

Let's look at the US Constitution then. Let's just base our economic system on what the founders had in mind. No one can actually live like that utopian NT. Let's see, “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” Well that sounds like socialism. Never mind.

It's just self evident that capitalism is godly and all other -isms are ungodly. Let's just leave it at that.

]]> By: Minnesotan http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97261 Minnesotan Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:05:52 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97261 I would add that a socialistic system, like many of the ideas coming out of the Obama White House, also show the arrogance of thinking that "we want to be like gods, controlling the world as masters of the universe." I am concerned when Sojourners talks about the economic system, they are quick to recognize the sin nature at work in free market systems, and oblivious to the sin nature operating in government-controlled and socialistic economic systems. I would add that a socialistic system, like many of the ideas coming out of the Obama White House, also show the arrogance of thinking that “we want to be like gods, controlling the world as masters of the universe.” I am concerned when Sojourners talks about the economic system, they are quick to recognize the sin nature at work in free market systems, and oblivious to the sin nature operating in government-controlled and socialistic economic systems.

]]> By: jkc1945 http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97246 jkc1945 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:25:07 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97246 I agree, generally. Capitalism appears to be the only economic "system" that recognizes the imperfectibility of humankind. Socialiam and communism both presume that mankind is perfectible, given enough social effort and time. For that reason, and that reason alone, I shall remain a capitalist until Christ returns and makes whatever changes He decides to make. <br><br>I appreciate the article. I might add that, at the same time that "Wall Street" made its several mistakes, we out here on "Main Street" were right in step. WE are Wall Street these days. We are the folks who, through our 401K's and similar instruments, drive the investment and trading markets. Additionally, we are the ones who used one credit card to pay off the balance of another "maxed-out" card, thus buying ourselves a few more months until the 'free lunch' came due. "We have met the enemy, and he is us." I agree, generally. Capitalism appears to be the only economic “system” that recognizes the imperfectibility of humankind. Socialiam and communism both presume that mankind is perfectible, given enough social effort and time. For that reason, and that reason alone, I shall remain a capitalist until Christ returns and makes whatever changes He decides to make.

I appreciate the article. I might add that, at the same time that “Wall Street” made its several mistakes, we out here on “Main Street” were right in step. WE are Wall Street these days. We are the folks who, through our 401K's and similar instruments, drive the investment and trading markets. Additionally, we are the ones who used one credit card to pay off the balance of another “maxed-out” card, thus buying ourselves a few more months until the 'free lunch' came due. “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

]]> By: prk http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/10/missing-from-wall-streets-calculations-sin/comment-page-1/#comment-97236 prk Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:40:58 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13219#comment-97236 "Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them."<br><br>The reason I am a capitalist is due to my opinion that individuals will do what they believe best for them or their family. I believe the Bible supports this telling me that man has a sin nature(selfishness). I also see this in the animal kingdom are Darwinism. “Underpinning the older model was the idea that people always make the most rational choices available to them.”

The reason I am a capitalist is due to my opinion that individuals will do what they believe best for them or their family. I believe the Bible supports this telling me that man has a sin nature(selfishness). I also see this in the animal kingdom are Darwinism.

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