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God's Politics

Health Care: Keep Your Eyes on the Prize

by Jim Wallis 11-16-2009

The following is a memo Jim Wallis has provided to leaders throughout the nation concerning the ongoing issue of abortion within the health care reform debate and the need to find common ground instead of allowing a resurrection of the “culture wars” that stymie honest debate and the change needed and wanted by the American people.

The culture wars have begun again — with a vengeance (not an exaggerated word if you’ve heard the hysterical and ugly rhetoric last week). Yep, it’s about abortion again (sadly, in relation to the health-care reform bill moving through Congress). This is precisely what a number of us were afraid could happen, and worked for months to try and avoid. But it happened anyway, and the result we were so afraid of is now a real threat — that the abortion debate could derail and sabotage efforts to address the critical need for health-care reform.

Those of us who have worked hard to find some common ground in this debate, to help forge some compromise that might let health-care reform proceed for the tens of millions of low-income families who desperately need it, are still trying to find some middle ground that both sides could live with (even if not happily); but we are increasingly despairing of that happening. Because as in most wars, it’s now becoming an all win-or-lose situation, and even those who sought to broker solutions are now under attack. (Have you heard what they say about bridges getting walked on?)

They say that in war, truth is the first casualty. Well, that’s not just true in military conflicts, but in culture wars, too. So let’s look at what happened in the process leading up to the bill voted on in the House of Representatives, what the current amendment on abortion coverage really says and means, and what the implications are for women’s health. Well, people are just making stuff up, misrepresenting in such outrageous ways that you could just call it lying. So let’s try to set the record straight, figure out what really happened, and talk honestly and accurately about what the current bill would do and won’t do. Then, let’s discuss what common ground might be possible, or what both sides should do if it isn’t possible. Let me apologize up front — this is going to be a long article.

As everyone knows, the legislative process is always a messy one that seldom leaves anyone fully satisfied with the outcome; the unusual Saturday night vote on health-care reform in the House of Representatives was no exception. But let’s put what happened in perspective. Although far from perfect, the bill that was passed by the House was a huge step toward one of the greatest legislative accomplishments and victories for social justice in a generation: the passage of a substantial plan for health-care expansion and reform.

The bill that came out of the House achieves many of the goals of the faith community by providing health care for 36 million more people, or almost 96% of Americans.  While we still need to include everybody — especially immigrants for whom this bill is still very inadequate — the House vote was a major legislative achievement. Somehow the culture warriors are forgetting that. This bill is still flawed (it expands health-care coverage, but does not truly tackle what will ultimately be necessary for core health-care reform); but the issue of health-care reform is still alive because a bill got 220 votes in the House (only two more than were necessary to pass). The House vote was a real step forward and an essential beginning to the final passage of health-care reform. Now things go to the even tougher battle in the Senate.

But ironically, Saturday’s vote simultaneously moved us closer both to final passage and to the possibility that abortion could still derail the process.  In the last week, we’ve seen the abortion rhetoric really heat up to ridiculous proportions. Those with opposing views are being stereotyped and demonized.  And facts are taking a back seat to sound bites.

This is an alarming turn for the worse from several months ago, when both pro-life and pro-choice advocates recognized that health insurance reform would be difficult enough to achieve without injecting the old culture wars into the debate.  Because health-care reform was so important to key people on both sides of the abortion debate, they agreed to the principle that existing legal precedents should be applied, and that neither side would use the health-care debate to advance its abortion agenda. While it was clear that some political groups were anxious to use this divisive issue to try to kill health-care reform, a number of both pro-life and pro-choice leaders were very committed to it and decided to seek common ground.

I believe there were some sincere early efforts by leaders on both sides to abide by what became known as “abortion neutrality.”  But somewhere along the line, the process broke down.  Instead of building on the initial common ground of neutrality and bringing both sides together to hammer out compromises, many pro-life Democrats felt excluded from the conversation about how abortion would be addressed in the bill.  Ultimately, they felt they were presented with a final “compromise” on abortion drafted by a predominantly pro-choice committee. Although the Capps Amendment was meant as a good faith effort to find common ground, it was drafted and finalized without enough  substantive input from the pro-life community, and it failed to address many pro-life concerns. (In several situations, it even made things worse instead of better.)

Unfortunately, from that point forward, mistrust grew, and the rhetoric and battle lines became more pronounced. Capps might have been a fruitful starting point for dialogue and a first step toward a workable compromise. Instead, those shepherding the bill made public statements that Capps had “taken abortion off the table” and was the best the pro-life community could hope for — take it or leave it.  In response, some in the pro-life community cried foul and claimed this process demonstrated why they could never trust the pro-choice Democrats.  Both sides accused the other of “moving the goal posts,”  “violating neutrality,” and threatening to sabotage needed health-care reform if they didn’t get exactly what they wanted on abortion.

Nevertheless, a number of pro-life Democrats and leaders in the faith community continued to push for a return to the negotiating table and a real effort to address the outstanding issues.  Though Sojourners is now under attack from some angry pro-choice zealots, we worked very hard to find a solution here and were one of the very few groups really talking to both sides. But as the rhetoric heated up and communication lines broke down, even simple fixes became nearly impossible. Because the pro-life side wasn’t really invited into a real discussion about possible solutions, the “compromise” missed some important things, misread the real situation, and failed to pass the tests of maintaining current law, abortion neutrality, and the status quo.

Both sides had seemed to agree with the principle that no one should be required to fund abortion if their conscience compels them not to, and that no abortion should be paid for with federal funds. An underlying national compromise on abortion seemed to be emerging. The pro-life side reluctantly accepts that abortion is legal in America, but believes that the consciences of those who deeply oppose it must be respected; such people should not have to participate in abortion as health-care providers or pay for it with their tax dollars. The pro-choice side acknowledges the conscience argument, but wants to ensure access to legal abortion and believes that such access should not be restricted by those who oppose the law on the grounds of conscience. This tacit agreement also follows public opinion in that a majority of the country doesn’t want to make all abortions illegal, but doesn’t want public funds to pay for it. That’s what democracy says about this issue now, even though neither side of the abortion debate is happy about it. But in this case, they seemed to be accepting the compromise for the purpose of health-care reform.

But as we approached the details of exactly how to achieve abortion neutrality, the common ground caved in, and the sides went to their respective corners as we ran into more and more disagreement. For example, both sides said they agreed that the legal precedent of the Hyde Amendment, which prevents federal funding for abortion with the exceptions of rape, incest, and the life of the mother, should be applied to the final health-care bill. (Currently, the Hyde Amendment precludes federal funds from covering elective abortion in all government funded insurance programs like Medicaid and the Federal Health Insurance Benefit Plans.) But ultimately, there was real disagreement about what the application of Hyde should look like in the new health-care reform bill.

One side said Hyde can be applied and accomplished by the strict segregation of dollars in health-care options, but the other side required a separation of plans. And the weeds of this policy debate got more and more complicated the more you got into them. For a few moments at the end, it seemed as though some kind of compromise might be possible; it would involve some reasonable agreement between ensuring the unrestricted legal access that the pro-choice advocates want and the restrictions on funding that the pro-life advocates want.

There might have been the possibility of a stricter enforcement of Hyde in the “public option” (which still may or may not be part of the final bill), since much more established legal precedent exists regarding the prohibition on the federal funding of abortion. Application of Hyde would be stickier in the new “exchange,” which would combine private and public elements, and where clear precedent simply does not yet exist. Most pro-life groups have strong convictions when it comes to how government programs and now the public option treat the prohibition of federal funding of abortion. But in my conversations with pro-life leaders, there was more openness to negotiate on the best framework and options for the exchange.

How to protect the consciences of both sides here — pro-life tax payers and the women who want access to legal abortion — is a most difficult issue to resolve. But when such compromises were suggested, they were ultimately rejected, and the outcome was more stark than it might have been.

Those shepherding this bill never invested the political capital required to resolve differences and bring the sides together.  Moderates were squeezed out of the process and accused of being traitors or stooges. Worse yet, moderate pro-life forces that were really committed to health-care reform were accused of not being so if they didn’t go along with the deal that the pro-choice forces had worked out. When compromises were suggested, they were rejected because both sides thought they had the votes.  I heard that directly from both sides. But in the end, only one side did: the pro-life side.

The problem with not compromising is that when you lose, you can end up with less than you might have gotten otherwise. The now-famous Stupak amendment is clearly closer to the pro-life community’s understanding of what “neutrality” means than the pro-choice community’s.  But it is clearly not the caricature it is now being made into by the losing side of the vote, some of whom are now referring to it as “the coat hanger amendment” suggesting that it is designed to push women into back alleys again for illegal abortions by denying them access to legal abortion; it certainly is not.

What it does do is exclude health-care plans in the public option from covering elective abortions; it also disallows any public subsidies from being used for plans in the new exchange which offer elective abortions. So while it represents a real departure from choice community’s agenda, it is not as draconian as some are now claiming.  In fact, Stupak actually tracks very closely to the original campaign promises that built the momentum for reform in the first place:  that every American should have the same sort of plan that members of Congress have.  The health insurance plan that is offered to every member of Congress and over eight million federal employees excludes abortion because of the Hyde amendment, and this same standard applies to federal funding for Medicaid and SCHIP.  In the new “exchange,” people can still purchase health-care plans that offer abortion coverage (despite misleading claims by some to the contrary), but they must use their own money to do so, and can’t use federal subsidies to purchase those plans. The Stupak amendment made Hyde the standard in the health-care bill that was voted out of the House, and it was a strict interpretation of Hyde.

Now we face the difficult question of where we go from here.  It is clear that health-care reform is not possible without the support of pro-life Democrats.  But at the same time, several pro-choice Democrats are now saying they will not vote for the final bill unless Stupak is removed.  The accusations are flying, and people on both sides are suggesting that if they don’t get everything they want, they might take their ball and go home.

I think there has been enough of the misrepresentations, name calling, and digging in of heals. Leaders who refuse to talk to their opponents are not “principled”; they maybe also be unwise or unable to actually get things done.  Such leaders — those who are unwilling to consider possible agreements and common ground in order to ensure the passage of a bill that would help so many American families — need to take a deep breath and ask their consciences how much social justice they are willing to give up for the sake of the strictest applications of their principles.

I still think we need more expert legal opinions of what would finally constitute a fair and diligent application of the Hyde amendment to health care (since both sides have agreed to that in principle), but by somebody who doesn’t have a dog in this fight. Can it only be done by segregating plans? Or are there ways to honestly segregate dollars or perhaps options, especially in the exchange?

As hard as it is, the best hope for going forward is to bring the two sides back to the table and start a conversation that should have begun in earnest months ago. My own view continues to be that abortion should not be allowed to block the passage of critically needed health-care reform.  The principal issue for me in the health-care debate all along, and the primary mission of Sojourners in this battle, has always been the fundamental moral issue of affordability and accessibility of quality health care for the middle and low-income individuals and families who desperately need it.  But it is clear now that we will not achieve those goals if we cannot figure out a way to address the concerns around abortion in this bill.

The religious community has different views on abortion. But some of the most hysterical comments from the Left this week have suggested the problem is that progressive religious groups have been listened to by the Democratic Party; some members of the Left long for the good old days when their party was avowedly secular and properly hostile to religion and all this talk about those annoying moral values voters. Well, good luck in ever winning elections in the U.S. or, more importantly, ever seeing the kind of broad social movements that make real change possible (i.e., movements for social justice which have always been based on moral values with central involvement from the faith community).

I have fought against religious fundamentalists most of my life, but it’s quite sad to see this new assault of secular fundamentalism against religion of all kinds — even against progressive religion.

Many progressive pro-life faith leaders try to uphold a “consistent ethic of life” that protects and promotes the preciousness and sacredness of life in public life and policy. Most of us don’t restrict our concerns to abortion; we also apply it to the pressing issues of global health, poverty reduction, human rights advocacy, environmental protection, and even war and peace. Nor do we prefer the solution of criminalizing a tragic choice; rather, we want to work to reduce unwanted pregnancies and support low-income women to help reduce abortion in the U.S.

Most of us agree with the principle that in health-care reform, federal funds should not be used to pay for abortion, and we were pleased when President Barack Obama committed himself to that principle in his address to the American people in September. We want to see the clearest language to restrict federal funding in this bill. But we believe that one of the best ways to reduce abortion is to make quality health care available for low-income mothers who need support for their choice to take their pregnancy to term, along with much better efforts at preventing unwanted pregnancies. If this bill does pass, the number of abortions in this country could be drastically decreased when we make quality health-care available for those low-income mothers.

For us, the passage of real health-care reform is the most important abortion reduction measure in this political debate, and passing health-care reform could do more to actually reduce abortion than the things we are currently arguing about. That’s our position, and that’s why Sojourners is committed to working to make health-care reform a reality.

The solution to the abortion divide will not be found by simply drawing lines in the sand or demonizing opponents.  Nor will it be found by dismissing the very real and legitimate concerns on both sides.  Instead, our only hope is to find the grace and forgiveness to see our opponents as they really are — not close-minded, extreme monsters, but our brothers and sisters who are fighting this battle. They’re not fighting to be against us, but because they care about their own principles.

“Neutrality” on abortion is possible, and it is mandatory now in order to pass this bill. The stakes are too high for us to fail, and too many people are counting on their leaders to figure this out — to not walk away from the table or refuse to do the hard work that will be required.  We cannot allow our differences over abortion to derail health-care reform because, as important as the issue of abortion is, it cannot be allowed to be the issue that prevents millions of families from finally getting insured.

Whether every American woman has a health plan that pays for abortion or not, tens of millions of currently uninsured women in this country will be much better off with health insurance than without. Therefore a focus on women’s health cannot just be restricted to access to abortion. Of the 36 million people who will get health-care reform in this bill, about half are women — that’s a great victory for women’s health, as women are too often among the poorest and least-insured people in the U.S. Of that half — or let’s say of the 18 million women who will get health insurance for the first time — a much smaller number are of child bearing age. And a much smaller number than that will have an unintended pregnancy in which they want to seek abortion as the solution. More than 85% of those women, if present numbers hold up, will pay for the abortion with private funds, and only 13% will use health-care plans to pay for it. That gets us down to a much smaller number of women than the “millions” who some people are now claiming will be affected by this new bill’s amendment on abortion. I would humbly suggest that both sides in this debate need to remember the very small number of women who in real life will be involved in this dilemma, compared to the impact on a very large number of women who will be denied their “health” if the reform bill does not pass. Principles are obviously important to people on both sides of this debate, but we all need to be very careful when our principles relate more to symbols than to substance.

If we really wanted to add more substance to women’s health in this bill, we could start by requiring mandatory pre-natal and post-natal care for all plans, as Congressman Tom Perriello has been pleading. We could also take the two bills in Congress that seek to reduce abortion by supporting low-income women in all kinds of practical ways — one with support for contraception and one without. This would be a good time to just pass both bills whose measures are not mutually exclusive.

So my prayer (and we had better all be praying about this one) is that as this debate moves to the Senate, each side will take a long pause and remember what is at stake.  Many of us in the faith community will continue to work with all sides to both achieve abortion neutrality and ensure that the promise of health-care reform is not denied to the millions of Americans who are counting on us to find a way.

I continue to hope that we can still find some principled compromise, to secure and hold some common ground, if at all possible, for the sake of passing health-care reform. But if no agreement can be reached, there will likely be a vote again on this in the Senate bill, and one side will win and one side will lose. Without any agreement, the issues will be ultimately be resolved on the House and Senate floors. Or they’ll be resolved in the subsequent conference committees — where rules, amendments, and bills will be voted up or down. In the end, these votes should be the results of the democratic process.

If we are to pass health-care in the Senate, and then again in both chambers, people of faith and good will on both sides will most likely have to agree to compromises, and do the best they can to uphold their principles in health-care reform; or they will just cast their votes. But I believe it is a moral imperative that no legislators turn their backs on the tens of millions of Americans who are counting on them to pass health-care reform.  Regardless of where things fall out in the Senate, or during a final vote, no one should walk away simply because of abortion.  Support of accessible, affordable health-care is also an issue of life.  And providing health care for low income people who need it will indeed provide critically needed health care for women, who are disproportionately poor, and disproportionately uninsured.

I have some hope that our political leaders on both sides will come back to the table, regardless of where the Senate bill or conference committee report lands on this issue.  Indeed, I am asking them to do that.  Health care is too important to too many, and we have all been working for too long for any of us to walk away from this issue.

So whatever the outcome, by an agreed compromise or by open and fair floor or committee votes, I hope and pray that neither side in the country — pro-life or pro-choice — walks away from critically needed health-care reform. Either make an agreement or live with the outcome of the vote. But don’t walk away! Health-care reform is fundamentally an issue of social and economic justice — one of the most critical moral issues of our time, and itself an issue of “life.” It’s time to do what we have sung in social movements for decades now: “Keep Your Eyes on the Prize.”  And hold on.  Hold on.

Categories: Abortion, Health
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  • KelvinMace
    [Crickets]

    My premise stands unchallenged. Christians have no business making moral pronouncements about abortion as "murder" when the supreme being of the Christian faith has an established practice of murdering when it pleases, for arbitrary and indefensible reasons.

    Women who have abortions mostly do so for compelling, or at least pragmatic, reasons. Their actions are morally defensible, certainly more so than a "god" who slaughters people out of pique, ego, or simple sadism.
  • Birdiesmom
    Dear KentuckyBlue,

    I am more than ready to leave this conversation. But, since you asked:

    "Do you feel that the children you work with should've been aborted? That they'd be better off had they been aborted? Maybe you don't feel that way, but that's how I have interpreted your comments where you say you hate abortion but then go on to explain that there are 'destitute, unwanted, desperate' children. It sounds as if you believe they'd be better off had they been aborted."

    Actually, I was speaking about the mothers as well as the children when I spoke about "the destitute, the unwanted, the desperate and the cruelly-treated." But, to answer your question:

    No, I don't wish they had been aborted. I wish they had been adopted. But instead, they were either completely abandoned and left in an institutional setting, or they were raised by a parent or parents that resented them and treated them with shocking cruelty. This is the reality of unwanted children. For the most part, my kids weren't "pretty" -- some of them were retarded, some had physical handicaps -- some were "normal", but unlucky -- the biggest exception we had was a strikingly handsome boy who charmed everyone he met. He was the one who got a "Big Brother" in the program of the same name. And he was the one who was the sociopath -- he didn't have a conscience. I caught him torturing animals, torturing the other kids, and he was frequently sent home from school for hurting other children. He was the one who poisoned the orange juice I prepared for our family one morning, and fortunately it was an adult who took the first sip, and recognized the off taste, before the rest of the kids drank theirs. When I asked this child why he had done this, he said it was because he was angry that he had lost his bicycle privileges for something he'd done earlier.

    When I pray for this boy, I pray that he hasn't killed someone, or that someone hasn't killed him. He's an adult now.

    I remember his Big Brother coming to me and crying, because he couldn't understand why, after months he'd spent with this boy, there was no "bond' between them. I tried to explain -- again -- what "sociopath" means, and that the child was doing the best he could, but he had no empathy -- he had no idea what other people felt, and he didn't care. It wasn't his fault -- that part of him was broken, and since it hadn't developed before he was 3 years old, it was extremely unlikely to develop now. If he managed to live beyond age 40, he might realize that people didn't remain his friends for very long, and realize that his behavior had something to do with it, but as far as picking up on what other people were feeling? He just was unable to do it.

    No, I don't think he should had been aborted. I think his mother should have loved him. I think he should have been adopted early enough that he could have developed a conscience. I think his father should have been raised in a loving family, so that he would have known how to be a loving father.

    The reality is -- no one wanted to adopt my kids. No one even wanted to foster them. They were on adoption/foster lists, some of them from birth, others from age 3 or so when their "problems" began to manifest, or when the abuse in the home became so obvious that social services were called in. But one was returned from a foster home after three months, and nobody called for the others.

    I've also worked in institutions with kids like these, and with the adults they later become. There is no light at the end of the tunnel for them. Certainly, some children in the world are adopted and go on to live wonderful lives, but a significant portion of them don't. They work, live and die among continuously-changing staff who, for the most part, stay emotionally distant from them, because it is the only way they can cope. I was an exception, and I eventually "burned out." I "cared too much," I was told. It didn't help that some of my "guys" and "gals" died.

    Should they be aborted? No. But the reality is they aren't being taken care of very well at all. Does this mean I'm "pro-abortion"? No, it does not, and I am not.

    You said: "How can a person justifty abortion when there are plenty of loving parents out there who will adopt a child and raise it in a good home? But again, giving up a child is a sacrifice, and like I said, sacrifice is not something many of us in our 21st century America are willing to do. Abortion is easier than giving up a child for adoption. And it's easier than raising a child in less than perfect circumstances."

    I know, from life experience, that things are not that simple. Not all parents are intelligent enough, or mentally healthy enough, or thinking clearly enough, or even know enough to make good choices regarding adoption, or anything else. I've even had some of my ladies/teens turn up pregnant (not the ones I had in the group home -- these were ones I took care of during the day, in the institution). It happens at school (usually in the restrooms), or at work, or on the bus. And yes, they had their babies. And no -- no one adopted them. Or fostered them. Or came to visit them. And their moms were not capable of taking care of them, due to mental retardation/mental illness/physical handicaps/extreme poverty.

    There is no bright, shiny solution. And, once again, I am not saying these kids would be better off aborted.

    What I AM saying is that this is a complex issue. AND, in this country, as long as a fetus is part of the mother's body, the right of what happens to the woman's body legally remains with her. Murder, in this country, is defined as the taking of another person's life. By definition, as long as the baby is still in the mother's womb, the baby is not a separate person from the mother, is not "another person" from the mother.

    This is why this is even an issue.

    When you decide that a person no longer has the right to decide what happens to their own body, you are setting a very, very dangerous precedent. This is why I don't believe, despite my own beliefs about abortion, that Congress or any other body has the right to deny women access to the legal rights they have been given under the Constitution of the United States and its Amendments. Especially since those rights concern their own bodies.

    If such a precedent is set, as it has been in some places, this is the sort of thing we can expect (be sure to watch the video):

    http://instinctualbirth.blogspot.com/2009/04/ce...

    To sum up:
    I am against abortion.
    I do not think "my kids" should have been aborted.
    I do not think I have the right to take away legal rights from women, especially poor women, because my morals do not agree with theirs.

    I can't make it any clearer than that.
  • KelvinMace
    KYBlue:

    I posted here since I was concerned my reply would not be noticed two pages back.

    In your haste to tell me all the nifty things some Christian groups have done to help children once they left the uterus, you overlooked my question. I specifically stated that I would read through rebuttals to my arguments, but only from people who answer this question first:

    "Do you agree that your "God" has murdered innocent children?"

    Now, the context of this question is taken from your sacred texts, and the numerous passages where children are directly murdered by your "God", or their murder is sanctioned.

    In order for us to have an intelligent and informed discussion on the ethics and morality of abortion, we must establish the bona fides of the ethical and moral systems making such judgments.

    So, please, kindly answer my question.
  • KentuckyBlue
    Apology accepted.

    I think we're really just defining things very differently (esp. our definition of the words "give" and "take") and viewing things very differently. Or maybe I am misunderstanding what you are "arguing" or trying to get across to me.

    I completely agree with you that yes, as citizens, we "owe" taxes, and yes, they provide us with good things. I've never argued against that. What I have argued with is some of your comments about how taxes are "given" and not "taken" from us.

    When Jesus answered the Pharissees about taxes, talked about rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caeser's, his answer was that yes, we should "give" Caesar what is his-- taxes. But he was talking about "giving" what your govt. has demanded from you. He was talking about compulsory giving because taxes were the law then, too. And I fully believe we are to obey that verse.

    2 Cor. 9: 7 "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

    This is what giving truly means. True giving is us deciding what to give and how much. It's not compulsory. Taxes are comulsory, and we don't decide what to give in the way this verse talks about deciding.

    Would you willingly, cheerfully, and freely give your money to government even if it wasn't required? (Currently, that's called a "donation"). Or do you "give" your taxes only because you are legally bound to?

    And how do I "give" 9% sales tax when I have no say in the matter? I buy a shirt, and the register rings up 9% sales tax, and I don't "give" it. I pay it. Like you said, I "owe" it. If I tell the cashier that I want to pay only 5% sales tax, and the Bible tells me that I "should give" what I have "decided in my heart to give," the cashier will tell me, sorry, but you have no choice. You either pay the 9%, or you don't buy the shirt.

    If govt. stopped requiring sales, property, and income tax and all the other taxes that burden us, would you still "give" your money to govt? How much? How would you decide on how much to give?

    If you went to a state like Utah, where there is no sales tax, and you bought $100 worth of clothes, would you willingly "give" additional money (tax) on top of that?

    If you got to keep every penny of your income, would you go ahead and still willingly give a tax on top of it, even if roads, police, and other services were paid for with other types of money?

    Is paying taxes really "giving" or is it really only "give what has been demaned from you and what will be taken from you?" The same type of "give" when you "give" the police officer your license when you are pulled over. You have no choice. So, it's not really "giving" but it is you complying to what is being lawfully being required or taken from you.

    From what I understand from your comments, that's really what we've been debating, because you said, "You're taxes are not 'taken from you.' " Maybe I've misunderstood what you're getting at... who knows!

    Take care. I think maybe we've exhausted the discussion!
  • KentuckyBlue
    I never said unborn children are "imaginary" -- I said the generations you are imagining coming from the fetus are "imaginary"

    I believe that I do understand what you are saying. I think the problem in our communication is that we just plain view it (life) differently and perhaps interpret God's Word differently, or believe it differently.

    If this is the upshot of what you believe about people who have abortions, then it explains your views completely.

    Women have abortions for all sorts of reasons, and I understand the difficulty of many of their situations. I pretty much already said all of this, but my main point has been that while their situations are understandable, it still does not negate the fact that their unborn child is a life. And it does not negate the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of a life.

    Abortion requires a doctor to use instruments, or chemicals, to surgically end the forming life of a child. If that doctor does not intervene, a child will be born. It's even a fact that there are not a lot of abortion doctors because doctors take an oath to save lives, not end them.

    Also, we've not mentioned adoption, but adoption is ALWAYS an option. How can a person justifty abortion when there are plenty of loving parents out there who will adopt a child and raise it in a good home? But again, giving up a child is a sacrifice, and like I said, sacrifice is not something many of us in our 21st century America are willing to do. Abortion is easier than giving up a child for adoption. And it's easier than raising a child in less than perfect circumstances.

    Do you feel that the children you work with should've been aborted? That they'd be better off had they been aborted? Maybe you don't feel that way, but that's how I have interpreted your comments where you say you hate abortion but then go on to explain that there are "destitute, unwanted, desperate" children. It sounds as if you believe they'd be better off had they been aborted.

    Well, I realize we have very different views on this, and that's just how it is. But maybe someday someone will read my comments and think twice about the pro-choice movement and the fallacy that an unborn child is just a "blob of cells," etc. I guess I can only hope, but talking about it like this does help me clarify my thoughts and helps me sharpen my conversation on the subject.
  • Birdiesmom
    "Your comment is rude, sarcastic, and insulting, and does not intelligently address a single comment I made. The only thing you should be sorry for is your attitude and rudeness and your failure to intelligently address anything I said in my comments. Instead, you merely retort with a snippy, snarky comment because you do not like what I've said."

    I apologize, KentuckyBlue. I honestly did not intend to be insulting. I am frustrated because I HAVE addressed what you have said in your comments, repeatedly, and yet you continue to repeat the same arguments over and over again. I made the above comment to succinctly make my point, rather than to yet again address the same tired issue.

    If you are a citizen of the United States, you automatically owe taxes, which are to be sent to the Department of Revenue yearly. No one comes to your door, or to your bank, to steal or "take" your money. You are aware you owe taxes, because it is a condition of your citizenship in this wonderful, safe, healthy nation we live in. You are educated and have few worries about your daily safety and health because you are a US citizen. You mail your taxes in, or fill out forms at your workplace for those taxes to be removed from your paycheck, because you agree that you are a US citizen, living in the US, and entitled to the benefits of citizenship. If you decide that the price of citizenship is too high, then you do what Henry David Thoreau did, and refuse to pay them. He objected to his taxes going to pay for war. He was thrown into jail. If I were a braver and more principled person, I might follow in his footsteps, but alas, I am not. And Jesus did tell us to "render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's."

    Again, I apologize for my rudeness. I was tired, it was late, and I was frustrated. It won't happen again.
  • Birdiesmom
    Excuse me -- I never said unborn children are "imaginary" -- I said the generations you are imagining coming from the fetus are "imaginary" -- i.e., the children of that child, and those children's children, etc., etc. Please try to understand what is being said before you respond to what a person has posted.

    You said:
    "And what does that mindset say about us? We are so obsessed with perfection. We want perfectly happy lives, perfect children, and we don't want hardships or difficulty. We don't want to sacrifice. And we rarely see examples of people sacrificing. There are many women who feel that their happiness is more important than the life of a child."

    "We rarely see examples of people sacrificing."

    If this is the upshot of what you believe about people who have abortions, then it explains your views completely. And, despite everything I've said, and my past history, you apparently think I believe that only children who will have perfect lives should be born.

    I'm sorry I was unable to communicate with you, KentuckyBlue. You are a good and passionate person, and we share a love for children, and a hatred for abortion. Perhaps I have seen a little more of the lives of the destitute, the unwanted, the desperate and the cruelly-treated than you. But God bless you, and may you always feel God's hands around you.
  • KentuckyBlue
    I agree with you about private and government agencies working together. Government agencies can do things that private agencies cannot, esp. since the government usually has much more money. And private agencies can do things that government often cannot. And, I agree, that private agencies cannot "do it all." Sadly, neither can government.

    Government does have a role in our nation, and in other nations. God is the one who instituted it. And it is not inherently evil in and of itself. Some governments become evil, overly controlling, or inept, etc. although that mostly depends on its leaders. But it has a place.

    Republicans don't believe that government should "not be involved at all." Anarchists believe that. Republicans believe in checks and balances and a limited government, one that adheres to the Constitution and does not usurp the roles spelled out within it.

    Repbulicans don't believe in nanny states, and they value individuality and responsibility of individuals. They do not want government to do everything for them, nor do they appreciate those who do. But they do not believe in no government at all. If they believed that, there would be no Republicans in office. And they wouldn't be Republicans, they'd be anarchists.

    Govt. did not completely fail in Katrina, although it certainly bungled up many things, mainly due to govt. regulations and rules, ones that really had nothing to do with Bush. Those regulations and rules are probably still in place today. Maybe they've been changed since Katrina and the lessons learned from it, but whether it is large and intrusive or small and nonintrusive, government agencies and programs are bound by red tape, regulations, etc.

    I have been told that many schools that have received stimulus money are not spending it because they are fearful. According to someone "in the know," the regulations constantly change. In the beginning, they would receive new rules and regulations every day. And as a result, schools were afraid to touch the money. If the money had come from a non-government source, they would be more free to spend it in the ways they see fit, and they would not have the anxiety about it that they have now.

    That's just an example of how govt. red tape can hinder govt. help.


    "During Katrina, I visited Sheriff Harry Lee, a Democrat and a good friend of mine. When I walked into his makeshift office I’d never seen him so angry. He was yelling into the phone: ‘Well, I’m the Sheriff and if you don’t like it you can come and arrest me!’ I asked him: ‘Sheriff, what’s got you so mad?’

    He told me that he had put out a call for volunteers to come with their boats to rescue people who were trapped on their rooftops by the floodwaters. The boats were all lined up ready to go – when some bureaucrat showed up and told them they couldn’t go out on the water unless they had proof of insurance and registration. I told him, ‘Sheriff, that’s ridiculous.’ And before I knew it, he was yelling into the phone: ‘Congressman Jindal is here, and he says you can come and arrest him too!’ Harry just told the boaters to ignore the bureaucrats and start rescuing people.

    There is a lesson in this experience: The strength of America is not found in our government. It is found in the compassionate hearts and enterprising spirit of our citizens. We are grateful for the support we have received from across the nation for the ongoing recovery efforts. This spirit got Louisiana through the hurricanes – and this spirit will get our nation through the storms we face today."

    -- Bobby Jindal
  • KentuckyBlue
    As for children's lives being a "living hell," there are people who were born healthy, or into good families, whose lives later becomes a "living hell." Perhaps they are in an accident and become disabled or they develop a debilitating disease. Should those people then be euthanized in the same manner that a child is aborted, with the same reasoning that life is not worth living if it is a "living hell" or marred by sickness, poverty, or other unfavorable or painful circumstances?

    One of the most amazing, wonderful people I know is man with cerebral palsy. He has a funny gait, he talks funny, he looks funny. He probably will never marry or have children. I worked with him many years ago at a large Christian organization, and he touched more lives than anyone else there. He also was more respected and liked than practically anyone else there. Everyone loved him. He loved everyone. And one of the main reasons was his attitude. He had every reason to be angry or bitter or consider his life not worth living. But he chose to put his faith in Christ, and he chose to accept his circumstances (since they couldn't be changed) and allow God to work through him even with his disability.

    Some people would consider that type of life, in which one is like a prisoner to their body and because of it, misses out on some of the desired things of life (like marriage), to be a "living hell."

    But his disability did not get in the way of his love for others, his happiness, or his faith in God. He eventually went to college, got a degree, and he lives on his own. And he continues to touch lives as he works for a ministry.

    He was born with his disability, however. I suppose if his mother was pro-choice and knew he'd be born disabled, she might have thus aborted him. But he was born perfect and did not develop cerebral palsy until his teens. And someday, when he dies, he will leave a wonderful legacy of faith in God, of courage, and of character.

    Just because someone faces circumstances like poverty, sickness, disabilities, an unloving family, or even horrible situations does not mean their life has to be a "living hell" or that it has to be one forever. Nor does it mean that death would be a better an option for them. If it's okay to abort a baby because of an upcoming life of sickness, poverty, or "hell," then logic would say that it's also okay to euthanize an adult (or commit suicide) because of the same reasons.

    A baby's life, even though the child is not yet born, is no less precious than an adult's life. In fact, when pregnant mothers are murdered, the murderer is often chargedd with two counts-- one for her, one for her unborn child. If abortion ought to be a choice for unborn babies, than euthanasia be a choice for adults, if we use the same logic that justifies abortion. And sadly, there are people who believe this and who view life as only worth living if it is void of painful or undesirable circumstances.
  • KentuckyBlue
    But you and your family are real. The generations you are imagining for a fetus are not -- they are imaginary. They do not exist.

    Unborn children are not "imaginary". IF an abortion does not thwart their birth, they WILL be REAL human beings. Just because they don't currently exist, does not mean they are "imagined." There was a time when President Obama did not exist. He was not born yet. Not even conceived. There was a time when even his mother was not born yet. Does that mean he was "imaginary?" No. He simply was not yet born.

    If you believe in God and His Word, then you know that He has said that he has preordained our days. He knows us BEFORE we are even born. He "knits us together in our mother's womb."

    Psalm 139: 13-16

    For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made.

    Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.

    My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.



    How can we justify abortion in light of these verses? It's something that I simply do not understand or grasp because, clearly, life is created by God, and it does not cease to be life simply because it has not yet been born. We are born at the time he has ordained for us.


    But if the baby is sick, or the mother is sick, or the family cannot afford to feed the baby, or the baby has some horrible condition that will make his/her life a living hell, then the mother needs to take this into account as well.

    Only God should take that life just as He gives life. God can provide food, health, and other provisions to help the mother and/or father raise a child. There have been millions of children in this world who were born into poverty but grew up to become successful, thriving adults. Oprah Winfrey for instance. There have also been many adults born with sickness or born to single mothers. This does not determine that their futures are bleak. Yes, there may be challenges and difficulties, and yes, there could be suffering, but it does not justify the taking of an unborn child's life.

    None of the future is known. There have been healthy, loved babies who later become sick or impoverished or unloved. Helen Keller for instance. She was born healthy and loved in a wealthy family. As a child, she lost both sight and hearing. No one foresaw that. If they had known, would it have been better that she had been aborted? But, Helen valued life, including her own, and she made many wonderful contributions to our society. She also left a wonderfully lasting legacy of a woman of character, strength, and courage. Compare that to the legacy someone like Paris Hilton, a person who's never faced pain or adversity, will leave.

    Why do we think that life is only worth living if it is void pain, suffering, trials, and tribulations? Does that kind of "easy" and pain-free life result in character? It often actually results in a lot of Paris Hiltons-- self-absorbed, shallow people whose goals in life are for things like fame, money, and beauty.

    No one wants to suffer, and pregnant mothers facing difficult things such as a disabled child or raising a child alone, deserve compassion, help, and care. It's very understandable that they might feel that the child will "ruin" their lives or that the child might grow up in too much pain so that the life is not worth living. It's understandable why they might want to choose abortion, although many abortions are simply done because of "inconvenience."

    When I look at Sarah Palin's precious baby, I am brought to tears. His face is obviously the face of a Down's baby. According to Sarah, he cannot yet talk, and she longs to hear him say "Mama." But, just looking at him, he is so darling and sweet. And to think that the majority of Down's babies in this nation are aborted, and that there are people who think they should be aborted because they are imperfect, brings great sadness. Who are we to decide who should and should not have life??

    And what does that mindset say about us? We are so obsessed with perfection. We want perfectly happy lives, perfect children, and we don't want hardships or difficulty. We don't want to sacrifice. And we rarely see examples of people sacrificing. There are many women who feel that their happiness is more important than the life of a child.

    Of course, there are also women who are just plain desperate. Or confused. Or even deceived because they are told that it's just a blob of cells and that abortion is no big deal. And these women need our love and compassion. They also need to be told that God loves them, can help them, and can bring good out of the worst situation. They need to be given hope, and the greatest hope is Jesus Christ.

    There are a multitude of reasons for why women choose abortion, some very selfish and some born of desperation, naivity, or deception. But none of the choices negate the fact that every abortion ends a life. If the abortion is not chosen or if it fails, a human being WILL be born. So, yes, there are painful circumstances, but nothing justifies the willful taking of an unborn life. And it should be a "choice" that only God makes.
  • KentuckyBlue
    I'm terribly sorry that you don't consider yourself a citizen of the United States, or that you owe anything for the freedoms, health and safety we enjoy here. No wonder taxes frustrate you so much.

    Your comment is rude, sarcastic, and insulting, and does not intelligently address a single comment I made. The only thing you should be sorry for is your attitude and rudeness and your failure to intelligently address anything I said in my comments. Instead, you merely retort with a snippy, snarky comment because you do not like what I've said.
  • Birdiesmom
    I'm terribly sorry that you don't consider yourself a citizen of the United States, or that you owe anything for the freedoms, health and safety we enjoy here. No wonder taxes frustrate you so much.
  • KentuckyBlue
    You have a say in how your taxes are spent in who you vote for, and how you communicate with those who are elected, and represent you. This is a fact.

    You only have a say when your vote is a part of the majority vote or when your reps and senators listen to your voice and consider your opinion when they vote and/or make decisions. Yes, by all means, we ought to vote, petition, protest, etc., but your vote might not result in the outcome you hoped for, and your petition and protest could be ignored. You don't control the final outcome because yours is one of many voices in this nation, and they all must be heard.

    Because we are a democracy, we ought to have "no taxation without representation," but we've changed quite a bit since our forefathers began this nation with their tax protests. And we have politicians who do tax us w/o our voices being heard. Or they promise not to raise taxes, and then they do raise them. Or they waste them.

    For instance, Cash for Clunkers, a program that was basically a small, temporary bail-out for the auto industry. Not only was it bumbled by red tape to the point that car dealers didn't get reimbursed in a timely manner, but it was a waste of taxpayer money. It had very little environmental effect (which was the whole purpose of the program... at least that's what Obama told us) since many of the cars bought were trucks and SUV's! And cars in running condition (the trade-in's) were destroyed. They could've been given to charity! What a waste, and how maddening that my taxpayer money paid for people's new cars!

    You and I had no say in that program. None whatsoever. Did any of us vote for those $4,500 rebates were paid with taxpayer money? No. Did we have a say in whether or not that program was implemented? Nope. None whatsoever. In the same manner, there is a war, and some of your tax dollars pay for that war, even though you are against it.

    In fact, just this past Thursday, a new tax was proposed. It's called the "Share the Sacrifice Act of 2010," and it's a tax for the war in Afghanistan. Ironically, it's being proposed by Democrats- David Obey, John Murtha, and John Larsen. According to their statement, "We believe that if this war is to be fought, it’s only fair that everyone share the burden." http://appropriations.house.gov/pdf/Obey_Murtha...

    I wonder how you might feel about this proposed war tax.

    The bottom line is that since there is no line item allocation on our tax returns, we pay for things we might not want to pay for. Unless we commit tax evasion, we have no choice when it comes down to it. But that doesn't negate that we can try to influence through voting, etc., and sometimes, our actions result in the swaying of politician's decisions or favorable results from a vote, but sometimes they don't.


    Also, your taxes are not "taken from" you.

    Wikipedia: To tax is to impose a financial charge or other levy upon a taxpayer (an individual or legal entity) by a state or the functional equivalent of a state such that failure to pay is punishable by law.

    Taxes are not willingly handed over. To "impose" is to take. Neither a charge nor a levy is a gift that is freely given. And true giving isn't punishable by law. We don't say to the government, "Here, I'd like to give you 40% of my income to go towards government programs for children." No, the government says to us... you owe us a certain percentage, and we will take it from your paychecks or impose it on top of your purchase, and we (not you) will determine how much we will take or impose."

    Wikipedia: A tax is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority and is...imposed by government, whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name. (from Black's Law Dictionary).

    Yes, we benefit from taxes (esp. those who are poor and receive welfare paid by taxpayer money without having to work like the people who are paying for their welfare. The things the welfare recepient purchases with their welfare dollars, whether it is cigarrettes, pornographic magazines, or rims for their truck-- you bought it for them, whether you like it or not). Yes, they are our "obligation," but they are still taken from us.

    The difference between taxes and charity is fairly obvious. Charities do not legally take money from people. They do not force anyone to give them money. People willingly, and joyfully, CHOOSE to give to charity. And they can choose which charity and how much they want to give, which greatly differs from their "choices" when it comes to taxes.
  • Birdiesmom
    KentuckyBlue:

    For the last time -- we live in a democracy. You have a say in how your taxes are spent in who you vote for, and how you communicate with those who are elected, and represent you. This is a fact. Also, your taxes are not "taken from" you. They are part of your citizenship in this country, and you receive incalculable benefits from them. Why you insist on mentioning "charitable contributions" in relation to them, I don't know. The upshot of all this is that you have a voice in where your taxes go, as much as you want to insist that you don't.

    No, you do not dictate specifically how your taxes are spent, but you most certainly have a choice and an obligation as a US citizen to communicate your desires to your government representatives -- your Representatives, Senators, and President -- if you do not like the way those taxes are being spent, or if the government is doing something you disapprove of. Kudos to you for protesting against abortion, which you believe should not receive government funding because it is taking human lives.

    As to your repeated protest that I do not know you, and have no idea what you support and don't support -- allow me to quote you:

    "Why is it acceptable to abort the unborn but not acceptable to execute a criminal? I am mostly opposed to the death penalty (although I have mixed feelings)..."

    By these statements, you have said that you have "mixed feelings" about the death penalty -- therefore, you are not "pro-life." "Pro-life" means pro-ALL-life, even the life of criminals. Either you are against the death penalty or you are not. Either it is wrong to take a life, or it is not. Make up your mind.

    You said:

    "And there are people who fight for the right to life for criminals, animals, even the environment... while meanwhile, these same people 'don't bat an eye' at abortion but rather claim that abortion is a 'right.'"

    You claim that "certain liberals" "don't bat an eye" at abortion. I will turn your words back on you:

    "You have made some really judgmental statements about {liberals}, yet you do not know every {liberal} and you obviously aren't aware of all the many good things {liberals}, esp. Christian {liberals}, have done to help children and others, both in the U.S. and around the world. And they do it with their post-tax dollars!"

    and, you say here:

    "I personally do not know pro-lifers who have a 'limited interest' in the 'sanctity of life.' ... It is very wrong and cruel to say that the 'only' life they care about is 'in the womb.' Do you realize what you are saying with that statement? You are saying that they care for no other life. Do you personally even know any pro-lifers?"

    I know a great many so-called "pro-lifers." I work with them, have them for in-laws, and meet them frequently in stores and other venues. Without exception, they are Republican, support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, and support capital punishment. I know, because they either told me, or I asked them. They are my friends and/or loved ones, so I cared enough to want to know.

    As for the link I gave you -- whether it is a "leftist/liberal anti-'right wing' website" or not, the Katrina time line is composed of facts which can be verified by any news organization. The government responded quickly -- the Coast Guard had hospital ships in place off the coast of Louisiana in plenty of time to take away the vast majority of people who later drowned. The Red Cross had trucks full of medical supplies at the borders, ready to go in. The National Guard was ready. But Bush wouldn't give the go ahead. If you don't trust the site I gave you, look up the Katrina time line on other sites. I have neither the time nor the patience to look up sites to suit your political tastes, since you don't recognize documented (and footnoted -- or did you not notice that each fact had a link going back to the original source?) facts when you see them.

    But, this isn't about Bush or Katrina. This is about the sad fact of abortion, of lives ending before they are properly started, of women who are faced with the horrible choice of choosing one life over another.

    I am very, very glad that your great-grandmother did not succeed in aborting your grandmother, so that you and your family members are here and part of our world.

    But you and your family are real. The generations you are imagining for a fetus are not -- they are imaginary. They do not exist. A baby IS real, and a mother should realize this, and that her baby is alive. But if the baby is sick, or the mother is sick, or the family cannot afford to feed the baby, or the baby has some horrible condition that will make his/her life a living hell, then the mother needs to take this into account as well. No one else should be making this decision for her. No one else has the right to make this decision for her.

    Obviously, there is nothing I can say to make you see my point, so I am going to stop trying. But you should realize the dangers of legislation which determine that a woman has no right to decide what happens to her own body:

    http://instinctualbirth.blogspot.com/2009/04/ce...
  • JaneinWNY
    "This isn't about Bush vs. Obama or Bush's failures. It's about govt. assistance vs. non-govt. assistance."

    In a domestic catastrophe such as Katrina, private and government agencies should work together. So many people still waiting, obviously the private agencies couldn't do it all.

    Part of the problem is that Republican governments believe government should not be involved at all, but they can't actually abolish the agencies, so they appoint people whose only qualification is that they believe government should not be involved at all. When the crisis comes, these people can't respond because they were selected for their incompetence, thereby "proving" that government can't do anything to help. That's what we saw in Katrina.

    It wasn't about Bush; it was about shrinking government to the size where you could drown it in a bathtub. Unfortunately, the drowning damaged a lot of people's lives.

    Jane
  • KentuckyBlue
    I agree steviejo. I am very much opposed to the current health care reform bill. I am also angered because of Obama's plan to toss out the Stupak amendment. I feel that it was Pelosi's and Obama's plan all along to eventually toss it out and I feel they included it in order to buy votes because there were many pro-life Democrats who would not have voted for the bill if the Stupak amendment had not been included.

    The problem is we don't agree, in our society, that killing is wrong. There are people who feel that assisted suicide or euthanasia are okay, and "rights." I once stumbled across a website (after reading an article about this) that helps people commit suicide. The people pay a fee and the suicide-helpers provide them with the necessary tools and make sure they succeed. I can't remember the site, but I kid you not. I was disgusted and dumbfounded.

    But life is just not valued in our society the way it should be. Maybe it's because we watch murder after murder on our t.v. screens night after night, or we play video games where the goal is to kill someone, or we think that a fetus is just a blob of cells and has no life to it. It's sad really. It's tragic. It's also frightening.

    Awhile back, there was a story of a young man who committed suicide on the internet, and he had people who were cheering him on, encouraging him to "do it." And i remember seeing a story about a young teenage girl killed in a very, very violent car accident, where the car was completely crushed and wrapped around a tree. Somehow someone got ahold of the police photos of her body, and they posted them on the internet! Despite the family's grief and protests, it was legal and they refused to take them down.

    We hear of other stories of husbands killing wives, wives killing husbands, children killing parents, kids killing other kids. We've got road rage that puts people's life at risk, and human trafficking where people are treated as objects to be sold, and child abuse where the life of the child is devalued.

    I believe we really are in the end times where people's hearts grow cold and calloused, hardened and evil. And I don't know what the outcome will be for our nation when we are guilty of the deaths of innocent unborn children. How long will God allow it? How long will he let us do what we have done and are doing to the unborn, and to others as well?

    Well, that's just my rant for the evening I guess. Abortion really saddens me. It brings me to tears. So does our society's coldness, and the way we feel our rights, our happiness, and our choices are more important than things like sacrifice, respect, and honoring each and every life.
  • KentuckyBlue
    However, I am not standing idly by -- I am PROTESTING, and doing all I can to tell my government to stop this war and STOP KILLING PEOPLE, and allowing our soldiers to die for NO JUST CAUSE. That is the difference between you and me.

    How do you know? You don't know me nor are you aware of what I do or don't do in my life. You can protest all you want, but the fact remains, you do not dictate where your taxes go once they leave your paycheck. Your taxes go to the same things mine do, including war. The only way you can escape that is to not pay taxes, but then you'd be breaking the law.

    You mean you don't want the police to respond when you are robbed....

    I never said that or even alluded to anything like that. Taxes serve a purpose, but taxes are not the same as charitable giving.

    You live in an orderly and civilized society, and your government is the reason.....

    Of course. Government has a purpose and a role in society. Unfortunately, it can often usurp that role and begin to control people's lives in ways it was never intended to. Look at Nazi Germany and the government there and what they did. Governments can easily become corrupt and/or too controlling.

    Yet you continue to deny that you have any control over how your taxes are spent, or what your government does.

    Answer me this. Do you control what happens to your tax deductions when they leave your paycheck?

    Control is not the same as influence. You and I can influence where our taxes go, but only to an extent. We are two individuals who are part of a collective whole, but you, alone, cannot march up to DC and demand that your taxes don't go to war. It doesn't work that way. Even if you were a senator or representative or even President, you don't get to control everything the way you might want to, because we live in a democracy, and other's voices are heard just as much as yours. And your vote is important, but it is one of many. Your protest counts, but it's one of many. And once decisions in DC have been made as to how taxes are to be allocated, you don't have a say in the matter, until the next vote, where again, you are one voice in a sea of many and things may not go the way you'd like them to.

    Influencing and controlling are two very different things.

    If you truly are "pro-life," and your heart truly breaks for children (and adults) who are abused, killed, or neglected, then I cannot understand how you can narrowly champion the anti-abortion cause with no regard for the circumstances of the pregnancy, the health of the fetus and/or mother, or the fate of the child and family after the birth. Because if the choice is taken away from the mother and her doctor, that is what you are doing.

    Why you continue to assert that I have "no regard" for the mother or the fate of the children and family is beyond me. It's a very harsh and judgemental thing to say about a person whom you do not even know. I am a teacher, a mother, and I have worked with children all my life iin various capacities, and I truly resent and am very offended at your comments that I do not care about children, families, or mothers. It's shameful that those who are pro-choice accuse those who are pro-life of not caring about children, mothers, or families.

    Had abortion been legal years ago, I wouldn't exist. Nor would my mother, her siblings, my cousins, and many others (all the children born to my cousins, me, my siblings, and the children yet to be born). How do you find it loving that my great-grandmother, who suffered from depression and did not want a child, should've been free to choose to abort her daughter (my grandmother)? How is it loving to deny someone existence? To deny them life? Was my great-grandmother's happiness and desires more important than the life of my grandmother?

    Abortion takes lives. Not just the aborted child but all the children that might've been born to that child. Currently, there are approximately 40-50 human beings that resulted from my grandmother's life. Had she been aborted, none of us would have been born. The Bible says that God knows us even before we are born. He's numbered our days. He's ordained our lives. I believe He planned a life for me, for my cousins, for my children. Had my great-grandmother succeeded in her abortion attempt, she would've been guilty of killing many lives, all of them preordained by God. What a horrible thing to bear, and I find it very unloving that pro-choice women disregard the pain and suffering of women who've had abortions.

    I find nothing loving at all with regards to abortion. I find nothing good about it. And I will never in all my life vote for anyone who supports it. Nor will I stop fighting against it. Nor will I stop helping women, women with unplanned or unwanted pregnancies, like my great-grandmother. Nor will I stop loving children. And I will never ever think that because they suffer, that they'd have been better off aborted. NEVER.

    And if you remain silent before your government about the war, and about capital punishment, your "pro-life" label and "Thou shalt not kill" justification do not apply.

    The topic here is not war or captial punishment. And I'm not going to get into those topics because I've spent enough time talking about abortion. You don't know my stance on war or capital punishment. You also don't know how I live my life and/or what I do as far as being involved in govt. and social issues. You shouldn't presume to know because you are making a lot of judgments about someone who is a complete stranger to you.
  • KentuckyBlue
    Birdiesmom, I looked at the link and the website providing the timeline. It's a leftist/liberal anti-"right wing" website. If you look at the staff, almost every single one of them, other than one man, looks about 20-23 years old! It's pretty hard to give much credence to a timeline produced by left-wing, liberal 20 year olds, esp. knowing that without a doubt, they will villify Bush.

    However, my points regarding Hurricane Katrina were not that Bush failed but that government itself is slow, cumbersome, and bound by red-tape. Had it been Obama in charge, I highly doubt aid would've arrived any faster.

    Look at the problems he's having getting health care reform passed. He wanted it done way back in April. And even IF it does pass, it won't be a full 4 years until it's implemented. But what about all those statistics of hundreds of deaths each day due to lack of health care? If people are dying, why will it take so long to implement? Because there are regulations and red tape when it comes to government assistance.

    I was unemployed awhile back, and when I first lost my job, I had to call the govt. unemployment office. I literally called ALL day long and reached not one single live person. I would get a message, "All systems are busy. Please call back again," and click, the line would go dead. So I'd call back, and I literally spent the entire day doing this, never to speak to anyone. But when I needed a new car, I walked into my local credit union, waited about 5 minutes, sat down with an employee, and about 20-30 minutes later, I had a car loan. My point is, govt. can do many things, but normally not nearly as quickly and/or efficiently as non-govt. sources. It's too big, too regulated, and too much of an impersonal entity.

    Read the below quotes from an opinion piece on New Orleans regarding the recovery after Katrina (which happens to also be negative towards Bush and positive towards Obama). http://www.thegrio.com/2009/10/today-the-city-o... It was written just a month ago, four long years after the storm and 10 months after Obama was sworn in as President:

    "The Army Corps of Engineers has yet to complete the construction of 100-year levees sufficient to withstand a category 5 hurricane."

    "Nearly 2000 families still live in temporary FEMA housing."

    "Medical services are woefully lacking due to disagreements about the federal government's financial obligation in funding the construction or repair of a public hospital in New Orleans."

    "More than nine months into the Obama presidency, New Orleans has seen more activity and more attention than during the last few years of the Bush administration..... But as one might expect, more than four years after Hurricane Katrina, Gulf Coast residents are frustrated with the pace of recovery. Residents want levees, housing and medical care now. The president's administration has been working on each of these efforts but there is clearly a considerable amount of work to be done."

    Meanwhile, others in the community are living in houses that have been built for them by charities and organizations (like Habitat for Humanity) or by other individuals, including family members, friends, and also churches. People waiting for govt. assistance are still waiting. People who've received non-govt. help are not still waiting.

    And it was churches, individuals, and ministries who opened their homes for victims, who helped them, who hugged and comforted them, who fed them, who raised money for them, who helped them clean up. I know if it had been me, I would've far rather had a loving person right there with me offering help and comfort, than have a President promising to help via my television screen. Which would you rather have?

    This isn't about Bush vs. Obama or Bush's failures. It's about govt. assistance vs. non-govt. assistance.
  • Birdiesmom
    On a side note:

    "If you look at Hurricane Katrina, those who received government help waited much, much longer for that help than those who received help from individuals and charities. For instance, Brad Pitt built houses for people there. Meanwhile, other people were still waiting for govt. assistance. This wasn't because the govt. at the time was run by Pres. Bush. It's because of govt. "red tape," regulations, etc."

    Please read the following Katrina timeline, and see how the government responded (rather well, actually), and how President Bush saw to it that their response was delayed until it was far too late:

    http://thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline/
  • Birdiesmom
    "The law says that I OWE taxes, and if I refuse to pay them, I will be fined or jailed. I don't voluntarily give that money away. Sure, it goes to many things, some good and some bad, but paying taxes is not the same as willful giving as one does when they give money to charity."

    You mean you don't want the police to respond when you are robbed? You don't want to know when a hurricane is coming? You don't want someone making sure that your car, house, and workplace are safe before you spend most of your life in them? Reality check -- by receiving these services, you agreed to pay for them. It's called being an American citizen. You live in an orderly and civilized society, and your government is the reason. That's why your kids get a free education in public schools. That's why you can buy gas at the pumps without worrying that it's watered down, or full of something other than gasoline. That's why you can drink water from your tap without worrying that arsenic, mercury or bacteria are building up to lethal levels in your and your loved ones' bodies. If you refuse to pay taxes, you are stealing, and deserve to be arrested. You OWE this money to the government -- it is NOT a charitable offering. Guess what -- life in such a country as ours isn't free.

    "'I am equally astonished that you continue to duck the issue that you are -- without protest -- allowing your tax dollars to finance the murder of countless unborn and born children overseas.'

    As are you, if you pay taxes. As are all of us, both those in support of war and those opposed to it."

    No, ma'am -- you forget the "without protest" part. I am as culpable as you that my country, the United States of America, is attacking other countries and killing the people there. However, I am not standing idly by -- I am PROTESTING, and doing all I can to tell my government to stop this war and STOP KILLING PEOPLE, and allowing our soldiers to die for NO JUST CAUSE. That is the difference between you and me.

    You have chosen to raise your voice against abortion, and I applaud you for that -- you are speaking up for a cause that touches you to the core, and which your conscience compels you to champion. Yet you continue to deny that you have any control over how your taxes are spent, or what your government does. If that is the case, why speak up at all? Why praise Jim Wallis for his actions? (Most of which are very praiseworthy, by the way.) If you don't believe that what we say has any effect, then why do you say anything at all? ( And please, don't think I am telling you to be quiet -- I'm not.) Either you believe you have the power to change things, or you don't -- make up your mind.

    Again, I must point out that, until provisions are made to prevent unwanted and/or toxic pregnancies (easy access to cheap birth control, clear and ACCURATE sex education for teens so they know how to avoid pregnancy, adequate and affordable health care for women which includes measures to safeguard reproductive health and treat infections and diseases that endanger pregnant women and their fetuses), the number of abortions, women who die in childbirth, children who are born and die in agony a few hours or days later, children who are stillborn, and children who are unwanted/neglected/abused will only continue to rise. The Stupak Amendment, as it stands, will be used to deny both public AND private health care for women, because there are few, if any, private insurance policies that are not touched in some way by federal funding. (For reference, see my earlier post.) And, as before, taxes will continue to be cut for programs that provide for prenatal care, nutrition, foster homes, or support of any sort for unwanted or abused kids.

    If you truly are "pro-life," and your heart truly breaks for children (and adults) who are abused, killed, or neglected, then I cannot understand how you can narrowly champion the anti-abortion cause with no regard for the circumstances of the pregnancy, the health of the fetus and/or mother, or the fate of the child and family after the birth. Because if the choice is taken away from the mother and her doctor, that is what you are doing.

    And if you remain silent before your government about the war, and about capital punishment, your "pro-life" label and "Thou shalt not kill" justification do not apply.
  • steviejo52
    I think that frankly the question that requires an answer is : Is "Thou shalt not kill" a biblical and ethical principle? If we cannot agree that killing is wrong and that destruction of innocents is particularly wrong, then we have no business calling ourselves Christ followers. So based on the belief that "Thou shalt not kill" is a biblical and ethical principle, I'll continue to be against the health care reform bill as presented in the senate
  • KentuckyBlue
    1) "Taking money by force to help poor people is socialism. Churches and private charities should do it all."

    Socialism is the equivalent of the government deciding how money is spent and who should and shouldn't get it. It is a very controlling type of government in which individuals can be punished for not supporting the government and rewarded for doing the opposite. It allows govt. officials to have unbridled power over people's lives. God never intended for us to be controlled this way.

    Churches and private charities do many good things, and the good thing about them is that they can choose how to allocate their money.

    Government can help poor people, etc. but government is a huge, impersonal entity overburdened by its resposibilities and the amount of people in need of help.

    If you look at Hurricane Katrina, those who received government help waited much, much longer for that help than those who received help from individuals and charities. For instance, Brad Pitt built houses for people there. Meanwhile, other people were still waiting for govt. assistance. This wasn't because the govt. at the time was run by Pres. Bush. It's because of govt. "red tape," regulations, etc.

    Another for instance. If a govt. health care bill passes, it will not be until the year 2013 that it is actually implemented. That's an entire 4 years away. Obama keeps insisting that it's "urgent" because people are dying by the minute, but yet, it's not going to take effect for an entire 4 years? This is either because he doesn't want it to go into effect until he is possibly into a 2nd term (sicne he knows there will be public backlash, and if he implements it before a reelection, it could affect his reelection) OR it's because govt. programs are always very slow.

    Govt. simply is, most of the time, not as timely and/or efficient as individuals because individuals are not entities who are bound by "red tape." Of course, larger organizations are more "bound" than individuals, but they are still self-governed vs. government.


    2) "Bad things happen to people. It's too bad."

    Genuine Christians don't flippantly dimiss other people's tragedies, troubles, and sorrows as "too bad." Genuine Christians grieve with others who grieve, help others in need of help, love those who are lonely or hurting, and so forth. But, since none of us is a perfect person in our thoughts, actions, or behaviors, we all fail at times.

    For instance, I have a very loving, warm, kind Christian friend who I ran into one day. At the time, I was hurting and in need of a friend. But she was busy and did not know I was hurting. So, she spent only a few minutes casually chatting with me and then said goodbye. I felt somewhat hurt, thinking like you that Christians really don't care about each other. But that's simply not true. Chritsians are human beings, and because of this, they need sleep, they can get grouchy when hungry, they go through menopause, they feel all the emotions that non-Christians feel. And sometimes we expect Christians to do for us what only God can do.

    And God created us in such a way that people cannot meet all our needs. He wants to be our first love. And when bad things happen, people can fail us, even the best of Christians, but God never will. We as humans cannot be in all places and help all people. But this does not mean that Christians are just callous, uncaring people because perhaps they lack the time or resources, etc. to do what we are expecting them to.

    So, yes, bad things do happen and will continue to happen. But, I don't know any Christians who have the mentality that "oh well... too bad."

    "You may care very deeply about the born, but charity can't do it all."

    Neither can government.
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