Comments on: Unseen Privilege: The Overlooked Gender Dimension of the ‘Deadly Viper’ Conversation

By: Continuing the Deadly Viper Conversation: Illuminating Gender Blind Spots | The Just Life

Tue, 24 Nov 2009 10:09:11 +0000

[...] response to Kathy Khang’s recent blog post, “Unseen Privilege: The Overlooked Gender Dimension of th… I want to say as one of the three men (and all of us Asian Americans) involved in bringing the [...]

By: katiebugk

katiebugk — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 06:19:36 +0000

Kathy – your post is a breath of fresh air to me. So often I tell my male friends, colleagues and churchmates that I can fight against sexism and for equality tirelessly and make little headway (while being called all sorts of names in the process, of course), but when men enter the struggle with me, people who wouldn't normally listen start to pay attention. It's a sad and powerful reality.

By: katiebugk

katiebugk — Tue, 24 Nov 2009 04:19:36 +0000

By: facebook-15608697

facebook-15608697 — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 11:14:19 +0000

Thanks so much for this post, Kathy. Like Lauren, I was struck by how demeaning their language was towards the feminine. I've also noticed that many of the supporters of DVCA have used language that shows a similar bent towards demeaning the critics of DVCA as being “crybabies” and “whiners” whose “skin isn't thick enough”. None of this is overtly anti-feminine, but the content and lack of civility in those comments seems closely related.

Please don't feel you should apologize for bringing this up. Clearly there are many that support you, and I for one am so grateful that you've brought this to the front now that there appears to be something of a resolution.

By: Deadly Viper: Character Assassins | jenniclayville.com

Deadly Viper: Character Assassins | jenniclayville.com — Mon, 23 Nov 2009 07:43:21 +0000

[...] You can read some written by Professor Soong-Chan Rah, Eugene Cho, DJ Chuang, Dave Gibbons and Kathy Khang. Then later I was quoted HERE by DJ Chuang… twice. I highly respect ALL of these [...]

By: bushworlda

bushworlda — Sun, 22 Nov 2009 22:59:00 +0000

Mbt in other word is anti shoe, improving posture and gait. Walk in 1 mile per day with Mbt walking shoes or Mbt Chapa.

By: NC77

NC77 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 21:53:49 +0000

In my opinion, the mental wiring and physical differences are the reasons why women in the military are not allowed and should not participate in combat. Let's face it, when men are in an environment where violence and confict are the order of the day, they have a natural inkling to revel in it.

By: facebook-506898371

facebook-506898371 — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 05:50:36 +0000

Alan,
I'm just glad that my sons who loved Thomas the Tank Engine for years and years never learned enough about steam engines to learn that phrase.

By: alanklug

alanklug — Sat, 21 Nov 2009 01:28:53 +0000

Great points Kathy. Much needed in the conversation.

Interestingly, the “balls out” or “balls to the wall” phrases come from steam engines, not testicles. While they may have been re-purposed, they actually refer to a “governor” that controlled engine speed and power through rotational motion of two balls on levers. When the steam engine was spinning at its highest speed, the balls would stick straight out much like swinging a tether ball at high speed. I'm not sure the authors were going with this imagery

By: Katie Rodgers Boxeth

Katie Rodgers Boxeth — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:20:30 +0000

Kathy,
Your anger is more than justified, it's righteous. Too often women are instructed to let go of their anger and find a way to get by in the world by being content on some greater plane. This is not the way change is enacted. The “greater plane” is hyper-personal, emotionally detached, and complicit with injustice. Anger is a right and healthy response. The fact that so few people are angry, especially women, deeply concerns me. We need your anger — your outraged energy — to wake us up and jar us out of our complacent pursuit of false inner peace. May your words kindle anger in others and may this energy move us toward true social change.

By: laurendueck

laurendueck — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 16:52:50 +0000

Thanks, Kathy, for bringing this piece of the problem forward. When I heard about the controversy originally, I spent a little bit of time poking around the deadly viper website, and was shocked by the blatantly sexist materials presented, especially in the “mancave” section. I watched an add which juxtaposed “girly” things with “manly” things, and then promoted the site as a place for “manswers” on leadership and integrity. Women and “girly” things were discarded as foolish, irrelevant, and to be rejected in favor of the “manly” virtues of leadership and integrity. I was pretty horrified, but didn't want to raise the issue at the time, and distract from the questions of ethnicity and race that were very successfully being brought to the table.

I'm frustrated that we, as Christians, regardless of our theological standpoints on “the women question,” still buy into cultural values that degrade and devalue women in every capacity, as this ad did. The message was that “real men” should scorn women and feminine things. Even if you're a Piper-ite (which I am the farthest thing from), how can you justify such an attitude as honoring to women in any way? It's not. It's derogatory and offensive.

And Kathy: Thanks for serving as a model for younger women, like myself, as we step into ministry roles and start confronting these questions ourselves.

By: kenfong

kenfong — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:55:34 +0000

Kathy, as one of the three men (and all of us AsiAms) involved with you in bringing this “Deadly Viper” controversy to the attention of the publishers and authors, I want people to know how clear-minded, unflinching, and resolute you and the other two AsiAm female leaders (Nikki Toyama-Szeto and Helen Lee) were and continue to be in this ongoing effort to sensitize the Body to less respected or valued parts. To those who would cite Scripture to insist that God would not have wanted any women to contribute their strengths, gifts, wisdom, and experience to this cause, I can only say that I believe that our efforts would have suffered in so many ways if these three Christian colleagues had not been allowed to weigh in with us men.
When I first got involved with the DV issue, I zeroed in on the co-opted stereotypic Asian images, most of which were of Asian males. But I am embarrassed to admit that I really didn't catch the denigration of women aspects when I first procured a copy of the book and began working through the content. However, because I have long believed that a huge part of Christ's redemptive work is to have the powerless teach the powerful, I was moved by the outcry of some Christian sisters and then started to notice how males-only many of the character lessons were. I too began to be upset about that and joined the chorus of those who wanted to confront the authors and publishers about this, too.
But in order not to overwhelm them, we all agreed to keep the focus on the misuse of images. I believe that that was the right approach and the response received yesterday from Zondervan seems to bear that out. However, as they regroup soon with the authors to re-present the content, it's now appropriate to work with them to correct this blind spot in the content.
No doubt there are folks out there who think there's nothing wrong with having stuff that is exclusive aimed at one gender or the other. However, given the history of excluding women from leadership and given the importance of pursuing solid Christian character among ALL Christian leaders, I believe it is paramount that a book about that topic should not in any way, shape, or form exclude female Christian leaders from the conversation. To do so, especially if the original target audience was males, is only to perpetuate that blind spot which continues to cause you pain. Your writing this post, something that I doubt I could do or do nearly as well, serves to make my whole point to those who are willing to hear it.

By: From Sojo.net: Unseen Privilege: The Overlooked Gender Dimension of the Deadly Viper Conversation « The Link Between

Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:08:37 +0000

[...] School girls with plaid skirts? Really? And how the *bleep* am I supposed “to go balls out”? Yeah, that’s going to be painful if not impossible. I don’t have balls, thank you very much. What is that even supposed to mean? I asked my husband, because he has balls, and he couldn’t believe his eyes. We both agreed. If any of our kids used that phrase they would know immediately that Mom and Dad were not validating their leadership choices and that using the phrase was not a good decision. Read the rest of the article here. [...]

By: Chris "Jesdisciple"

Chris "Jesdisciple" — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 03:19:55 +0000

I'm not sure what the “balls out” thing means, but my first reaction was actually that ovaries are balls too… If the idiom is a literal word-picture, that might hurt more, though.

But I think everyone here knows what I would say, so I'll just stop here.

By: jodyfernando

jodyfernando — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:39:26 +0000

Thanks for your succinct, thoughtful, and FUNNY take, Kathy. I laughed out loud about going “balls out”. Sadly, I think the reality of women being left out is far too common in the church today.

By: RachelK

RachelK — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:16:58 +0000

Years ago the late Norman Mailer was the president of a writer's group, and he made the statement that “you have to have balls to write like this,” which rightly infuriated women who were members of the group.
The eventual response was “you have to have ovaries to write like this.” (I have never seen any word on Mailer's reaction — I think I'm glad.)
Clearly the writers of this so-called Christian Warrior crap need more ovaries. Also more brains.
Kathy, your struggle is more complex than that of many women because of the double-bind of ethnicity. Yet you are not alone, either in human terms or in spiritual ones. Christ stands with you in the struggle for justice.
At the lowest times of my life, I have found that humor is a necessary survival strategy — even if it expresses the bleakest, direst feelings, I had to find a way to laugh through the tears. May your ovaries carry you through the long haul.

By: tupetewalker

tupetewalker — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 16:16:58 +0000

I'm really glad the gender-element is being dealt with here, along with the racial aspects. And it's not just an issue of gender. This misogynistic, hyper-macho language is deeply demeaning and marginalizing to both the queer community, and to “dudes” like me – who just aren't macho.

Now that this issue is getting brought to the forefront (as it should be) can someone please call out Mark Driscoll for the same destructive attitudes toward women and homosexuals? He's been propogating this stuff for much longer (along with his reformed-hipster buddies). The Viper conversation is just a piece of a much more prevalent, systemic “social disease” in the American church.