Comments on: The U.S. Shouldn’t Bless Honduras’s Flawed Elections http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/ A Blog by Jim Wallis and Friends Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:56:13 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Eric Geil http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-110790 Eric Geil Fri, 04 Dec 2009 00:15:10 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-110790 Lets look at the Military Aid. Honduras is close to one of the Most meddlesome countries in Latin America, one run by Mr. Chavez who funds Rebel and Leftest groups in the area. Remember him complaining about our deal with Columbia I have to wonder how much was to rail against the Yankee American and how much was due to it hurting FARC. Becareful before you casts stones since one might just get fling back at you.<br><br>Hondours had an election with none of the Coup leaders on it. Question is do we respect it or do we demand they rehold elections until a canidate of our liking wins??? That is much more interfence in the Country than I want. Lets look at the Military Aid. Honduras is close to one of the Most meddlesome countries in Latin America, one run by Mr. Chavez who funds Rebel and Leftest groups in the area. Remember him complaining about our deal with Columbia I have to wonder how much was to rail against the Yankee American and how much was due to it hurting FARC. Becareful before you casts stones since one might just get fling back at you.

Hondours had an election with none of the Coup leaders on it. Question is do we respect it or do we demand they rehold elections until a canidate of our liking wins??? That is much more interfence in the Country than I want.

]]> By: Eric Geil http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-107306 Eric Geil Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:15:10 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-107306 Lets look at the Military Aid. Honduras is close to one of the Most meddlesome countries in Latin America, one run by Mr. Chavez who funds Rebel and Leftest groups in the area. Remember him complaining about our deal with Columbia I have to wonder how much was to rail against the Yankee American and how much was due to it hurting FARC. Becareful before you casts stones since one might just get fling back at you.<br><br>Hondours had an election with none of the Coup leaders on it. Question is do we respect it or do we demand they rehold elections until a canidate of our liking wins??? That is much more interfence in the Country than I want. Lets look at the Military Aid. Honduras is close to one of the Most meddlesome countries in Latin America, one run by Mr. Chavez who funds Rebel and Leftest groups in the area. Remember him complaining about our deal with Columbia I have to wonder how much was to rail against the Yankee American and how much was due to it hurting FARC. Becareful before you casts stones since one might just get fling back at you.

Hondours had an election with none of the Coup leaders on it. Question is do we respect it or do we demand they rehold elections until a canidate of our liking wins??? That is much more interfence in the Country than I want.

]]> By: rocknrollmd http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-107307 rocknrollmd Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:20:44 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-107307 Sorry, but just for the record: #1 the reason why Oscar Arias called the Honduras constitution the "worst constitution" in the New World is precisely because it has no mechanism for amendments, for impeachment, or for any reasonable interpretation. Can you imagine our constitution without its first 10 ("Bill of Rights") amendments??? #2 also, for the record, the stated provocation for the coup which removed the democratically-elected leader of Honduras was his having obtained ballots to conduct a survey (not even a referendum: a non-binding survey) to determine whether a majority of voters would agree that it was lawful for a sitting president to campaign for one (and only one) re-election. Finally, #3 for the record, NOBODY (!) has asked the United States to intervene militarily or in any way in the affairs of Honduras. The United States, as a nation, stopped providing Honduras with military aid after the coup, expressed its disapproval of the coup, and denied visas to the coup authors. Most of the democratically elected countries of the world agree that the US should not restore military aid to that country until there is some evidence (beyond an election controlled 100% by the persons who conducted the coup) that democratic rule has been restored. Honduras is under no foreign threat that would justify the United States using our tax dollars to prop up their armed forces. At no time has the United States interrupted the millions of dollars of humanitarian aid that this country enjoys. Only MILITARY aid was interrupted by the Obama administration, because it is a scandal for our country to be propping up a military that removed an elected president from office. I just can't see any earthly reason why we should be providing military aid to the Honduras armed forces at this point. But seriously, folks, NOBODY will accept another US invasion of a Latin American country... particularly the American people... no matter who is innocent or being slaughtered ;) count on it. Sorry, but just for the record: #1 the reason why Oscar Arias called the Honduras constitution the “worst constitution” in the New World is precisely because it has no mechanism for amendments, for impeachment, or for any reasonable interpretation. Can you imagine our constitution without its first 10 (”Bill of Rights”) amendments??? #2 also, for the record, the stated provocation for the coup which removed the democratically-elected leader of Honduras was his having obtained ballots to conduct a survey (not even a referendum: a non-binding survey) to determine whether a majority of voters would agree that it was lawful for a sitting president to campaign for one (and only one) re-election. Finally, #3 for the record, NOBODY (!) has asked the United States to intervene militarily or in any way in the affairs of Honduras. The United States, as a nation, stopped providing Honduras with military aid after the coup, expressed its disapproval of the coup, and denied visas to the coup authors. Most of the democratically elected countries of the world agree that the US should not restore military aid to that country until there is some evidence (beyond an election controlled 100% by the persons who conducted the coup) that democratic rule has been restored. Honduras is under no foreign threat that would justify the United States using our tax dollars to prop up their armed forces. At no time has the United States interrupted the millions of dollars of humanitarian aid that this country enjoys. Only MILITARY aid was interrupted by the Obama administration, because it is a scandal for our country to be propping up a military that removed an elected president from office. I just can't see any earthly reason why we should be providing military aid to the Honduras armed forces at this point. But seriously, folks, NOBODY will accept another US invasion of a Latin American country… particularly the American people… no matter who is innocent or being slaughtered ;) count on it.

]]> By: Stein http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98788 Stein Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:17:48 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98788 You also leave out so much from your analysis; whatever doesn't fit the<br>conclusion you want. However, I'm too busy to debate particulars. Give<br>it a rest. You also leave out so much from your analysis; whatever doesn't fit the
conclusion you want. However, I'm too busy to debate particulars. Give
it a rest.

]]> By: ElrondPA http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98774 ElrondPA Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:34:56 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98774 There's a lot you're leaving out of your analysis. It wasn't just the military--not even primarily the military--that removed Zelaya from power. His arrest was called for by a unanimous Supreme Court. The legislature almost unanimously agreed and affirmed the transfer of power--to a member of Zelaya's own party. The military went beyond its mandate in throwing Zelaya out of the country, but the rest of what happened was totally as prescribed by the Honduran constitution (Micheletti was the next in line for the presidency). To call it a coup is like claiming that Nixon was toppled in a coup.<br><br>Note also that the candidates in Sunday's election were selected by both parties BEFORE Zelaya was ousted. And the turnout for the election was HIGHER than it was in the election that voted Zelaya in (and, for that matter, higher than the turnout in the 2008 US election).<br><br>Is all well in Honduras? No. But it's hardly the authoritarian jail that many Zelaya apologists have been claiming. (I haven't heard any condemnations from Sojourners of the rioting and looting the Zelaya faction has been committing.) It's nothing like the abuses of freedom that are happening in the home of Zelaya's best friend, Chavez of Venezuela, where democracy and the rule of law have lost all meaning. There's a lot you're leaving out of your analysis. It wasn't just the military–not even primarily the military–that removed Zelaya from power. His arrest was called for by a unanimous Supreme Court. The legislature almost unanimously agreed and affirmed the transfer of power–to a member of Zelaya's own party. The military went beyond its mandate in throwing Zelaya out of the country, but the rest of what happened was totally as prescribed by the Honduran constitution (Micheletti was the next in line for the presidency). To call it a coup is like claiming that Nixon was toppled in a coup.

Note also that the candidates in Sunday's election were selected by both parties BEFORE Zelaya was ousted. And the turnout for the election was HIGHER than it was in the election that voted Zelaya in (and, for that matter, higher than the turnout in the 2008 US election).

Is all well in Honduras? No. But it's hardly the authoritarian jail that many Zelaya apologists have been claiming. (I haven't heard any condemnations from Sojourners of the rioting and looting the Zelaya faction has been committing.) It's nothing like the abuses of freedom that are happening in the home of Zelaya's best friend, Chavez of Venezuela, where democracy and the rule of law have lost all meaning.

]]> By: Guarionex http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98729 Guarionex Thu, 03 Dec 2009 01:39:10 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98729 "only the slaughter of innocents calls for interference."<br><br>first, I'm sorry to break news to you but the US has been interfering in Latin American politics long before you & I were born, with or without slaughters. <br><br>Second, I agree with you when you said that: "it's not up to america to bless or to curse the politics of Honduras". No problem with that. <br><br>However, I disagree with the alternative you propose which is , "mind our own business..." I think this is a sweeping statement not applicable to most of the situations in the world. That's is why I bring the Darfur example. "Minding our own business" is not change. It's rather the status quo!<br><br>Third, I'm glad that your friend, who runs a school in Honduras, have not witnessed or experienced the slaughter of innocents. Does that means that your friend's experience speaks for ~ 8 million people in Honduras? If you believe so, then you are right; "you should mind your own business" “only the slaughter of innocents calls for interference.”

first, I'm sorry to break news to you but the US has been interfering in Latin American politics long before you & I were born, with or without slaughters.

Second, I agree with you when you said that: “it's not up to america to bless or to curse the politics of Honduras”. No problem with that.

However, I disagree with the alternative you propose which is , “mind our own business…” I think this is a sweeping statement not applicable to most of the situations in the world. That's is why I bring the Darfur example. “Minding our own business” is not change. It's rather the status quo!

Third, I'm glad that your friend, who runs a school in Honduras, have not witnessed or experienced the slaughter of innocents. Does that means that your friend's experience speaks for ~ 8 million people in Honduras? If you believe so, then you are right; “you should mind your own business”

]]> By: irish_annie http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98726 irish_annie Thu, 03 Dec 2009 00:22:21 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98726 apples and oranges dear fellow... honduras is not darfur. only the slaughter of innocents calls for interference. that is not happening in honduras according to a friend of mine who runs a school there. apples and oranges dear fellow… honduras is not darfur. only the slaughter of innocents calls for interference. that is not happening in honduras according to a friend of mine who runs a school there.

]]> By: dpayton http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98722 dpayton Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:16:41 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98722 Guarionex, I must agree with your sentiment. There are time we do need to reach outside our borders and help those who are afflicted. Holing up inside our box forever is irresponsible.<br><br>We may disagree on which matters in which to intervene, but we can't just sit by the pool and let the word go by. Guarionex, I must agree with your sentiment. There are time we do need to reach outside our borders and help those who are afflicted. Holing up inside our box forever is irresponsible.

We may disagree on which matters in which to intervene, but we can't just sit by the pool and let the word go by.

]]> By: dpayton http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98721 dpayton Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:13:44 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98721 Stein, before you run off, I do want to clarify that, in matters of whether an election is flawed or not, as is the topic of the original post, what matters is whether it followed the law, not the emotions of people who didn't like the outcome. "People matter more" is true most often, but in matter of legality, which is what the original post is about, it is the law that matters. Sloganeering may sound like the high road, but it's less than helpful in clarifying matters. Stein, before you run off, I do want to clarify that, in matters of whether an election is flawed or not, as is the topic of the original post, what matters is whether it followed the law, not the emotions of people who didn't like the outcome. “People matter more” is true most often, but in matter of legality, which is what the original post is about, it is the law that matters. Sloganeering may sound like the high road, but it's less than helpful in clarifying matters.

]]> By: Guarionex http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98720 Guarionex Wed, 02 Dec 2009 22:07:16 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98720 Wow! Tell that to the people of Darfur! Wow! Tell that to the people of Darfur!

]]> By: thinkingaloud http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98707 thinkingaloud Wed, 02 Dec 2009 20:24:05 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98707 Stein, Zelaya was NOT deposed because the military did not like him. The military carried out a legitimate order to arrest Zelaya, and then botched it by illegally sending him out of the country instead of taking him to jail to be tried for the crimes with which he was being charged. <br><br>You are saying people abstained in the elections because they feel that their vote wouldn't matter because the powers that be might just depose the one they elect on a whim. But this completely overlooks the peculiar circumstances that led to Zelaya's ouster, namely, the egregious behavior of Zelaya in disrespecting other branches of government, even to the point of leading a violent mob to storm a military facility to recover confiscated ballots for a vote that had been declared illegal by Honduras's democratic institutions. <br><br>The sad and multi-faceted truth, as I see it, is that untoward precedents will be set no matter what is done at this point. Yet Sojourners is seeing this matter very one-sidedly, and there has been NO discussion of which precedents are the ones we should worry about the most. There were irregularities in what occurred in June, and these should be investigated and dealt with. But to fail to recognize these elections will set a dangerous precedent that will encourage renegade presidents to abuse their position and put democratic governments at risk in the future. <br><br>By the way, anybody who would like to see the Honduran Congress's deliberations in progress (I'm writing at 4:23 p.m. Honduran time) may do so at <a href="http://www.telecatracha.com/2009/09/ten-canal-10-television-educativa.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.telecatracha.com/2009/09/ten-canal-1...</a> . Stein, Zelaya was NOT deposed because the military did not like him. The military carried out a legitimate order to arrest Zelaya, and then botched it by illegally sending him out of the country instead of taking him to jail to be tried for the crimes with which he was being charged.

You are saying people abstained in the elections because they feel that their vote wouldn't matter because the powers that be might just depose the one they elect on a whim. But this completely overlooks the peculiar circumstances that led to Zelaya's ouster, namely, the egregious behavior of Zelaya in disrespecting other branches of government, even to the point of leading a violent mob to storm a military facility to recover confiscated ballots for a vote that had been declared illegal by Honduras's democratic institutions.

The sad and multi-faceted truth, as I see it, is that untoward precedents will be set no matter what is done at this point. Yet Sojourners is seeing this matter very one-sidedly, and there has been NO discussion of which precedents are the ones we should worry about the most. There were irregularities in what occurred in June, and these should be investigated and dealt with. But to fail to recognize these elections will set a dangerous precedent that will encourage renegade presidents to abuse their position and put democratic governments at risk in the future.

By the way, anybody who would like to see the Honduran Congress's deliberations in progress (I'm writing at 4:23 p.m. Honduran time) may do so at http://www.telecatracha.com/2009/09/ten-canal-1... .

]]> By: Stein http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98706 Stein Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:57:14 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98706 "No, what matters is the law."<br><br>No, what matters is people.<br><br>Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Bye. “No, what matters is the law.”

No, what matters is people.

Perhaps we will have to agree to disagree on this point. Bye.

]]> By: thinkingaloud http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98702 thinkingaloud Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:55:38 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98702 Based on what I've seen so far, it does not appear that Sojourners is inclined to give a balanced picture of this extremely complex situation. The following links are not the whole story either, but they give a bit of counterpoint to consider....<br><br>Zelaya comes to Honduras and violence follows<br><a href="http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/zelaya-comes-to-honduras-and-violence.html" rel="nofollow">http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/...</a><br><br>Telesur stages 'military repression'<br><a href="http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/07/telesur-stages-military-repression.html" rel="nofollow">http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/07/...</a><br><br>Brutal Repression of Honduran Citizens<br><a href="http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/10/brutal-repression-of-honduran-citizens.html" rel="nofollow">http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/10/...</a><br><br>Human Rights Report: Honduras<br><a href="http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/human-rights-report-honduras.html" rel="nofollow">http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/...</a> Based on what I've seen so far, it does not appear that Sojourners is inclined to give a balanced picture of this extremely complex situation. The following links are not the whole story either, but they give a bit of counterpoint to consider….

Zelaya comes to Honduras and violence follows
http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/...

Telesur stages 'military repression'
http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/07/...

Brutal Repression of Honduran Citizens
http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/10/...

Human Rights Report: Honduras
http://lagringasblogicito.blogspot.com/2009/09/...

]]> By: judithod http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98697 judithod Wed, 02 Dec 2009 19:12:32 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98697 Zelaya's intent was to rewrite the Honduran constitution to suit his purposes, and with Chavez and the Castro boys backing him, he thought he couldn't miss. Unfortunate that the United States took Zelaya's side in this, and we have to wonder why. Zelaya's intent was to rewrite the Honduran constitution to suit his purposes, and with Chavez and the Castro boys backing him, he thought he couldn't miss. Unfortunate that the United States took Zelaya's side in this, and we have to wonder why.

]]> By: DebiInHonduras http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98681 DebiInHonduras Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:54:37 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98681 Sometimes change is painful. Zelaya broke the law and Congress too action. At no time was the military in control of the government. As Irish says, let Honduras resolve this problem, which, by having a clean and transparent election, they are on the road to recovery. Sometimes change is painful. Zelaya broke the law and Congress too action. At no time was the military in control of the government. As Irish says, let Honduras resolve this problem, which, by having a clean and transparent election, they are on the road to recovery.

]]> By: dpayton http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98680 dpayton Wed, 02 Dec 2009 17:36:32 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98680 <i>All comers did NOT have an equal chance. How likely is it that if a<br>president had been elected and the military did not approve, that they<br>would remove him (or her) also? Many voters believed that. Then why<br>bother to vote? It really doesn't matter whether you or I believe<br>that!!! It really does matter whether voters believed that.</i> <br><br>No, what matters is the law. Was anybody unlawfully excluded from running as a candidate? I agree, some people have reason to be mad, but perception of a 'coup' does not make it one. Neither does it make it one when the military happens to like the results of an election. This was not because of the military forcing Zelaya supporters away from the polls; it was voters not voting that did it. Democracy in action, if you will. <br><br>Democracies deal with fabric tearing all the time. The Nixon cover-up and resignation certainly cast ours in a bad light, but we came through just fine. Some say the Bush/Gore election damaged our democracy, yet now it's not even fodder for comedians anymore. <br><br>Should Honduras take steps to restore confidence in its democracy? Absolutely! But they should not be subject to outside pressure if that pressure is due to inaccurate portrayals of what happened. All comers did NOT have an equal chance. How likely is it that if a
president had been elected and the military did not approve, that they
would remove him (or her) also? Many voters believed that. Then why
bother to vote? It really doesn't matter whether you or I believe
that!!! It really does matter whether voters believed that.

No, what matters is the law. Was anybody unlawfully excluded from running as a candidate? I agree, some people have reason to be mad, but perception of a 'coup' does not make it one. Neither does it make it one when the military happens to like the results of an election. This was not because of the military forcing Zelaya supporters away from the polls; it was voters not voting that did it. Democracy in action, if you will.

Democracies deal with fabric tearing all the time. The Nixon cover-up and resignation certainly cast ours in a bad light, but we came through just fine. Some say the Bush/Gore election damaged our democracy, yet now it's not even fodder for comedians anymore.

Should Honduras take steps to restore confidence in its democracy? Absolutely! But they should not be subject to outside pressure if that pressure is due to inaccurate portrayals of what happened.

]]> By: Stein http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98679 Stein Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:50:21 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98679 Look at the results. The military did not like the president. After<br>the coup and these elections a new president more to their liking is in<br>place. <br><br>Now walk in the others' moccasins. You voted with the majority and the<br>candidate you favored became president. This president was a champion<br>of your causes, but made some powerful enemies. His enemies kidnapped<br>him from his house in the middle of the night (I'm not making this stuff<br>up; it really did happen). His political opponent, YOU'RE political<br>opponent, was given the presidency instead. In those moccasins I would<br>be hoppin' mad.<br><br>All comers did NOT have an equal chance. How likely is it that if a<br>president had been elected and the military did not approve, that they<br>would remove him (or her) also? Many voters believed that. Then why<br>bother to vote? It really doesn't matter whether you or I believe<br>that!!! It really does matter whether voters believed that.<br><br>Can't you see how this whole process has torn away at the fabric of<br>democracy -- and that something more substantial than sweeping it under<br>the carpet needs to be done to restore the confidence in democracy? Look at the results. The military did not like the president. After
the coup and these elections a new president more to their liking is in
place.

Now walk in the others' moccasins. You voted with the majority and the
candidate you favored became president. This president was a champion
of your causes, but made some powerful enemies. His enemies kidnapped
him from his house in the middle of the night (I'm not making this stuff
up; it really did happen). His political opponent, YOU'RE political
opponent, was given the presidency instead. In those moccasins I would
be hoppin' mad.

All comers did NOT have an equal chance. How likely is it that if a
president had been elected and the military did not approve, that they
would remove him (or her) also? Many voters believed that. Then why
bother to vote? It really doesn't matter whether you or I believe
that!!! It really does matter whether voters believed that.

Can't you see how this whole process has torn away at the fabric of
democracy — and that something more substantial than sweeping it under
the carpet needs to be done to restore the confidence in democracy?

]]> By: dpayton http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98666 dpayton Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:09:09 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98666 Well then, neither did I say that a peaceful election alone guarantees a true democracy. What I have been noting all along that the election, plus a number of other indicators (see my response to Guarionex) does not suggest that some sort of military takeover has occurred, as Haugaard's use of the word "coup" would.<br><br>Nor does it necessarily deligitimize the election, which she basically states outright. All comers had an equal chance and equal opportunity; at least far better ones than in Hussein's "elections", which is why I feel your comparison fells flat, on so many levels. Well then, neither did I say that a peaceful election alone guarantees a true democracy. What I have been noting all along that the election, plus a number of other indicators (see my response to Guarionex) does not suggest that some sort of military takeover has occurred, as Haugaard's use of the word “coup” would.

Nor does it necessarily deligitimize the election, which she basically states outright. All comers had an equal chance and equal opportunity; at least far better ones than in Hussein's “elections”, which is why I feel your comparison fells flat, on so many levels.

]]> By: Stein http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98650 Stein Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:37:03 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98650 Of course there is plenty different between the two. I never said there<br>wasn't. I am merely dramatizing that a "peaceful" election does not<br>insure true democracy (as your previous post seemed to imply). I<br>believe that Honduras is in a fragile time. Simply denying the feelings<br>of a large segment of its population by blithely stamping legitimacy on<br>the coup or the subsequent elections does not seem to me to be helpful. Of course there is plenty different between the two. I never said there
wasn't. I am merely dramatizing that a “peaceful” election does not
insure true democracy (as your previous post seemed to imply). I
believe that Honduras is in a fragile time. Simply denying the feelings
of a large segment of its population by blithely stamping legitimacy on
the coup or the subsequent elections does not seem to me to be helpful.

]]> By: dpayton http://blog.sojo.net/2009/12/01/the-u-s-shouldnt-bless-hondurass-flawed-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-98642 dpayton Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:21:59 +0000 http://blog.sojo.net/?p=13822#comment-98642 Are you <i>really</i> conflating the two elections? Really? You see nothing at all different between the two? Are you really conflating the two elections? Really? You see nothing at all different between the two?

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