The church is the body of Christ. Not a denomination or a big ornate building. The body of Christ transcends that worldly notion, which is also a misconception among those who do not understand what Christ came to earth to establish.

The church is the body of Christ.

Thanks Jesse. Blessings to you!

I agree with a lot of what you say, Squeaky, and I do hear love in it. I hope you are well, and thanks for chatting about these things :)..

I responded to your post, but it didn't show up here. It's at the top of the thread. Or the bottom. Somewhere in here...

Jesse,
You make some good points. And I agree that certainly we Christians can be very hard on each other, and we definitely need more grace and charity towards each other. Too often we look at each other and say "you aren't really a Christian" because of thus and so, or brand each other a heretic. I've seen it all my Christian life. It is the reason for so many denominations.
I don't know Bazan's reasons for rejecting Christianity. I didn't watch the video (because they asked me to register to read the article, and my life is out in the etherworld enough as it is, thank you very much). However, my experience has been that most people who reject Christ aren't rejecting Him. They are rejecting the Christian(s) or the church who misrepresented Him. Often, those who reject the Church reject it because of deep hurts perpetrated on them. And if we don't want that to happen, and I don't think we do, it would seem to me reasonable to stop blaming the "sinner" and learn whether there is something we as Christians could have done better to prevent people from leaving the fold. People don't always leave to pursue sin, you know.

Yes, we will be hated by the world, but so often I see that given as an excuse for bad behavior. Would that when we are hated we are hated because we actually do reflect the love of Christ to the world. Too often, that has not been the case, however. Too often we are not loving to this world, too often we have been abusive, and too often we have been manipulative and power hungry. And this is what the world sees of the Bride of Christ. She's not that pretty right now, and so when the world holds up a mirror for us to check out teeth, we should pay attention when someone tells us we have a big leaf of spinach stuck in them. And just as you would lovingly tell your sister to remove that leaf before she walks down the aisle and smiles at her groom, it is also not unloving for us to critically evaluate the Body.

Yes, we are to love the Church. She is the Bride of Christ, after all. But loving does not mean excusing bad behavior, especially when that behavior can result in doing eternal damage to a person's soul. Discerning between someone who is rejecting the church because of their sin and someone who has a legitimate concern is admittedly tricky, but nevertheless important.

The Body of Christ is in the gangly, awkward teenage stage, with the best of intentions (usually), but often tripping over our too-large feet. Teenagers need to be disciplined for their development, and so too the Body of Christ.

My understanding is that this is what Jim Henderson does as his ministry - try to help churches see from an outsider's perspective. It's a valuable approach.

"There lives more faith in honest doubt than in half the creeds of Christendom."

I think he just means we tend towards self-flaggelation, and he sees this mostly among progressives. And probably sees it from progressives directed at conservatives.

Ha! I should have looked up the author of the book, but was too lazy. =)

Unfortunately, the history of Christians, particularly in Europe, has been littered with full-scale wars being fought between Christians against each other. Which is tragic when our Savior has always taught us to love our God and love our neighbor as ourselves.

"There are strong tendencies among progressive Christians and emergent types to be anti-church"

Huh? That makes no sense. And in Judge Judy's words, if it doesn't make sense, then it's not true. Christians, whether "progressive" (whatever that means) or not are not "anti-church." Perhaps the churches that we attend aren't of the denomination or don't hold to the same theology that your church does. How can I, a good Episcopalian, be "anti-church" when I regularly attend a church and worship in it?

Squeaky,
No doubt Christians can do things to turn people off from Jesus. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But we sometimes look to people like Bazan as being in a unique and revered position to give us advice about how we should do things differently. Of course, we should listen, but should we follow? Blaming the church is often just post-hoc rationalizing. He was led away from Christ by his own sin. He can't blame the church for causing this. And neither can we. You say, "I think it is important to understand that he isn't rejecting Christ, but the church." But he's rejected Christ!

Should we really be surprised that he doesn't like the church? Read what Jesus says, what Paul says, and even what John says: expect the world to hate you. Christianity is inherently offensive to Bazan...we should expect him to find problems with the church. If he didn't, we probably wouldn't be doing things right.

There are strong tendencies among progressive Christians and emergent types to be anti-church and anti-evangelical, and I think there's a reason they interview people like this and prop up their testimonies to help support their own negative views about Christians and the church. But is the church not the bride of Christ? Could we maybe focus on a lot of good stuff the church is doing every once in awhile?

The criticism of Christians and evangelicals in particular on this site often sinks into us vs. them thinking. Propping up the old "religious right" bogeyman, for example (who is that, anyway? Am I the religious right??). There's a certain spirit and sense of grace and charity that goes along with godly, family-style correction, but I rarely see it here.

Oh, excellent - I'll have to check that out.

Wow, I just looked it up on Amazon - it's the same guy behind both of them, Jim Henderson.

Very good. I would also suggest "Jim and Casper Go to Church" if you haven't read it already.

Jesse,
I think it is important to understand that he isn't rejecting Christ, but the church. You have it backwards. When you say,

"His problem is fundamentally his own sin and the lies of the enemy he's bought into rather than specific things evangelicals or religious conservatives do or might stand for. "

you are essentially dismissing his concerns. You are saying, "it doesn't matter what your story is or why you don't believe in God. You're just a sinner. Of course you feel that way."

Essentially you are saying it isn't important to understand or hear his concerns. Sure, of course, it boils down to his own personal sin, as it does with every one of us. But that doesn't mean he has no legitimate concerns about his Christian experience, and it is important to understand those concerns. Often those very concerns shine a light on how Christians are not reflecting Christ, and on how we can perhaps do a better job of being Christ to this world. That's valuable information, don't you think?

As for the lies he has bought into, don't assume it is lies *about* Christianity he has bought into. Sometimes it is the lies *within* Christianity that turn people away from the faith. And if those lies are one's experience with Christianity, how is a person supposed to know the truth?

I have known plenty of good Christians who have been hurt in amazingly profound ways by Christianity. I could give you story after story after story of people who have been injured to the core. One church I belonged to suffered a majorly painful split over such lies. Another actually became a refuge for Christians who have been hurt by Christians, and the stories many of those congregants tell are very disturbing. Amazing they are still in the church, and many had walked away from it (the church, not God) for years.

It is indeed best we listen when someone leaves the faith and understand why, rather than dismissing him or her as being sinful and buying into lies. Often there are solid bases for their disillusionment. The church is not even close to being perfect, and yes, sometimes it is very much at fault for causing these little ones to sin.

This reminds me of "I Sold my Soul on Ebay" - a book written by an agnostic in response to attending various churches. He observes what it's like to be an outsider, how awkward church is, and also points out the good. But in the end, he's not Christian.

I think the Church has so much to learn from people outside it. I love to see a meaningful engagement between the church and the non-church. But so often we're afraid to engage - afraid of criticism or perhaps even afraid our own faith will be shaken.

In truth though, we need to. We need to know how we appear to others - not so we can pretend to be something we're not for their sake, but so we can see where we're failing to communicate the love, grace, beauty & truth of the gospel. Whether people are complete outsiders looking in, or those who were inside and walked out.... they're the ones we should be listening to most.

It's always sad to hear when people have fallen away from the faith, though it would be wrong to consider their perspective on Christianity and the church as somehow sacrosanct. He isn't rejecting the church. He's rejecting Christ. His problem is fundamentally his own sin and the lies of the enemy he's bought into rather than specific things evangelicals or religious conservatives do or might stand for.

Some questions I hoped you'd have asked:

"Since you rejected from Christianity, how has your worldview or opinions on things like politics or morality changed?"

(Note: I would guess for Bazan, it hasn't changed much at all...what do you make of that?)

"Was there something you learned about Christianity that you didn't know before that led you to reject your faith? What specifically was it?"