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God's Politics

Interview with Brian McLaren About ‘A New Kind of Christianity’

by Melvin Bray 02-18-2010

100218-a-new-kind-of-christianityAuthor Brian McLaren’s A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith proves to be an incisive and provocative contribution to the public conversation on the future of faith. Rather than hunker down in a defensive posture or go on the attack, as our dominant religious metaphors might incline us to do, McLaren proposes Christians reach for a new metaphor, that of the quest.  A quest is a search for something worth having, in this case a search for a faith more worthy of Jesus, our Lord.

The book is predicated on a surrender of several abiding paradigms, including what you describe as a constitutional reading of scripture: treating the Bible as if it were an all but closed codification of fundamental principles and precedents to which a lawyer-believer can appeal and from which one can argue. In your research, what have you found to be the previously preferred metaphors for scripture?

I don’t want to overestimate how well any of us can see the world exactly as people did in sixteenth- or tenth- or second-century England, Spain, or Egypt. But I think you can make this very fragile generalization: before the Enlightenment, authority resided not in books, but in divinely ordained people. Authority figures taught with a kind of divine right parallel to the divine right by which kings were thought to rule.

My hunch is that as we dispensed with the divine right of kings, we moved toward the divine right of individuals, enshrined in a statement like “all men are created equal and are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights.” We articulated and defended those human rights through constitutions. I think we did something similar in the ecclesial realm: Protestants, at least, dispensed with the divine right of popes and cardinals, and we shifted our authority to constitutions — doctrinal statements and systematic theologies — which we claimed were derived from and legitimized by the Bible.

So to answer your question, I think we moved from the pre-modern metaphor of the king’s court to the modern metaphor of the judge’s courtroom. And now, I think we’re growing as restless with the court and constitution metaphor as our ancestors did with the kingly metaphor. If the earlier one seemed despotic, the later one seems bureaucratic. So we’re on a quest for new metaphors. My proposal is that we’re moving from courtroom to quest as a primary metaphor. We’re not trying to once and for all arrange the evidence that demands a final verdict: we’re on an unending quest for truth, for better understanding, for insight that leads to love for God and neighbor.

It seems to me that the crux of the book is the “What is the Gospel?” chapter.  Of all the questions, what do you think makes the gospel question such a challenging conversation for so many to have?

I tell the story in the book of how shocked I was when an Evangelical theologian once proposed to me that most Evangelicals — including me — didn’t have “the foggiest notion” of what the gospel really was. So perhaps this question will seem like a shock to folks, but I can’t put into words how liberating it is to rediscover Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom of God, and to see that Paul and Jesus have the same gospel, not different ones.

As one might expect, you use Romans as a means of confirming your response to “What is the gospel?” but then you offer a quite unexpected reading of it.  Acknowledging that absent the guidance of the Spirit there is no understanding of scripture, were there any aids in particular that helped you find cohesion in Paul’s letter to Rome?

I must first acknowledge what I believe to have been a Spirit-inspired discomfort with the standard reading of Paul’s letter. A key breakthrough for me came when I read Bishop N. T. Wright’s work on Paul. He said that the point of Romans wasn’t to explain the gospel, but to solve a problem created by the gospel: How can the Gentiles be accepted without savaging the historic and “orthodox” exclusiveness of Judaism? How can Gentiles be accepted without relativizing supposed moral absolutes like circumcision and kosher laws and so on? I had never heard anything like that before, and frankly, I was curious but not convinced.

So in my private devotional time over several months, I began writing my own personal commentary on the book. I tested Wright’s hypothesis by carefully reading the text word by word, line by line. And although I may read a few things differently on the level of detail, I was absolutely convinced by the main line of Wright’s thought. Romans isn’t an explication of the gospel: it is an engagement with the problem of a newly inclusive understanding of the kingdom of God and the people of God. As I worked with Romans, I saw his rhetorical strategy to be more and more like that of Jesus, working with stories and metaphors that are something like parables. I began to see him making a series of moves, and gradually Romans became more coherent, dramatic, and alive for me than it had ever been.

[to be continued]

Melvin BrayMelvin Bray (melvinbray.com) is a devoted husband, committed father, learner, teacher, writer, storyteller, purveyor of sustainability, and believer in possibilities. He is a contributing author to the recent compilation Audacity of Faith: Christian Leaders Reflect on the Election of Barack Obama (Judson Press) and a participant and host in the Emergent Village conversation.

Categories: Books, Theology
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  • The focus here is correct. The notable thing about not only this book, but much of Brian's work, is re-examining the paradigms most Christians have been using. This is very appropriate for a Christian because Jesus was all the time questioning the dominant paradigms of his day. Among other ways, this is reflected in his response to questions. In many cases, he does not answer directly because the paradigm is loaded into the question and answering directly would be supporting the paradigm. So Jesus would respond more indirectly in a way that challenged the paradigm underlying the question.

    The "New Kind" in the title of this and a prior book cuts two ways. It reflects the paradigm shift that Brian himself has taken and that he writes about. This does seem new to him and probably most Christians. But in another sense, there's nothing new about this kind of Christianity at all. It's really two millenia old. I don't think Brian is saying it is new in that sense, but presenting as "new" does help fuel some of the critics. They fear he is throwing out the Gospel and substituting a new one. He's not, but the focus on newness can be misleading to some.

    My father was preaching with a perspective very similar to Brian's more than a half century ago. There have been groups in every era that have been.
  • "Woe to those who join house to house, and field to field, until there is no room left in the land" [for the people?]"

    But we're only talking about ONE kind of wealth here. Not all the others. Land is a zero-sum game. Wealth is not. Wealth can be created.

    "And what about that troublesome year of Jubilee,"

    See my comments in reply to Blue Deacon

    "and those troublesome 7th year manumissions and debt relief?"

    Hey, I'm not saying it didn't call for assistance to the needy. But that's different than trying to even out wealth to a substantial degree. But the primary means of assistance was loans, MOST, MOST of which would have to be paid back. Our American welfare system is more generous than this! It doesn't require ANY repayment!

    "I will cite Luke 1:53 and compare that to the Lukan beatitude Luke 6:21. See also James 5:1-3, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the parable of the man who needed more barns to store up his wealth, etc."

    But some people in the Bible were also blessed with prosperity. It is always wrong to make it an idol or gain it through immoral means. But even in a socialist economy, this is still every bit as much a problem. Because those in power live very, very well.

    Just look at all the ruckus raised about executives flying corporate jets (which put people who support those jets out of work, by the way), while Nancy Pelosi spends lavishly on her own travel, paid for by the taxpayer.
  • lisahartzoghannah
    I first encountered this in seminary. As one who's faith was formed by the Bible I was shocked at how philosphy had defined who God was from the very start of the councils. Who can read the Scriptures and come to the conclusion that God is immutable? I'm excited to see this movement in Christianity now and want to read Brian's thoughts
  • UZZA
    leannenmcginney:
    I don't agree with you that I'm missing that the Word was Jesus Christ. In that same chapter and the Word walked amongst us is in reference to Jesus Christ. I'm not missing that. Remember, Jesus even said that everything that he spoke was what His Father told Him to speak. It was not Jesus Words, but those of His Father. Likewise, it was not the words of the Apostles and Prophets of old that they spoke, but that which God instructed them to speak, thus God breathed. Now, likewise, as you have determined within your own reasoning that this book, these books, the bible is not infallable, inerrant, or "the words of God" your reasoning is based upon what? Mere arguments! You nor I where there at the moment that these books or anything else occurred. Therefore, I choose to believe as these books are written and not according to reasoning and arguments of men. Man says that it is infallable, inerrant, but these books, the bible does not describe itself in that manner.

    Throughout the Scriptures, you see where God instructs man to write these things down. Show me throughout Scripture where God allows or instruct man to interpert what God meant verses what God said?

    As a matter of fact, God even warned His children about men that would lead you into useless arguments. Take a look at Colossians 2, 2 Timothy 2 and Titus 3.

    However, we all make choices to believe that which we choose to believe. In the end of times, truth shall be revealed when each of our books of life is opened before us. My prayer is that God will reveal to each of us a true understanding of things that are and things that are to come.
  • My reading of the Gospel and Epistles shows plainly that individuals were baptized without lengthy schooling or even being left in possession of a roll of scripture. It seems to have been a bit like getting married: You may not know a lot before hand but you are certainly obliged to find out what will make it work after you say "I do".

    Well, baptism was a ritual washing practice that became prevalent about 400 B.C. and was immediately incorporated into the fledgling church
  • leannemcginney
    Yes, from Capt 1. Gospel of John. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." What you are missing is The Word is Jesus Christ, not any book or set of books, not the Bible.

    Also, "God breathed" and "useful" from I Tim. does not mean infallable, inerrant, or "the words of God" God inspired men, men wrote according to what they knew of the world at the time.
  • stitt
  • VineyD
    You make a point that Jesus also addressed as regards assuming an official or authoritative role as a guide in spiritual matters. Matthew 23:10 has Jesus warns against being a self-assuming "Leader" or "Guide". The Greek word suggests a title more official than that which occurs when one is a diakonis -- a teacher with a little "t".( Such a role that occurs if we have even if we do not seek an official teaching position.) Jesus says further, "For one is your Leader, even Christ".

    As for questions--asking questions was often Jesus' favorite manner of instruction! How much better to be a little"t" teacher and let the Truth step forward from honest hearts.

    I do agree. It is best to be careful of what we teach/say.
  • I largely agree with you, Squeaky. My concerns with McLaren is not that he is someone asking questions (perfectly fine), it's the context in which he's doing it. In his books, while speaking at conferences, etc. When you have that kind of platform, you have a great deal of responsibility. A person like McLaren should be having these discussions non-publicly (or on internet discussion boards), listen to responses, take them into account, really think things through, and then when he really has something to say, take the role of author and teacher.
  • "Under Biblical law, capitalism was highly regulated -- not so much the content but the attitude. And yes, there was indeed a culture of wealth redistribution"

    Baloney. It was a regulation, but it wasn't "wealth redistribution." Someone would turn over the land, but they only paid rent on the land for a certian number of years. That's like saying that when the lease was up on my apartment I was renting, the wealth I had was redistributed back to the landlord.

    Plus, other forms of capital, like livestock (the predominant measure of wealth in that time), currency, merchant shops, fishing boats, and residential houses were never subject to any wealth redistribution.

    "In fact, the reason Israel went into captivity for 70 years was because of its failure to practice it in the previous 420 years. (The number of years was no coincidence.)"

    The Jubilee was every 50 years. And the prophets railed against idolatry, not failing to follow the Jubilee. You're making this too easy. :-)

    "I have "God's Politics," and he didn't make that exact comparison."

    p. 267 - "I spoke on behalf of the estate tax and quoted from the prophets Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah, suggusting that some regular leveling of riches in society was a consistent theme of the biblical sages."

    It wasn't.
  • VineyD
    Your comments make me happy. My faith community told me NOT TO DISCUSS a matter in the Bible that has troubled myself and others for years. My reading of the Gospel and Epistles shows plainly that individuals were baptized without lengthy schooling or even being left in possession of a roll of scripture. It seems to have been a bit like getting married: You may not know a lot before hand but you are certainly obliged to find out what will make it work after you say "I do".

    We have to search. And yes, as you point out we are all bound to be at different places in our faith journey and not be threatened by them --certainly not do what the apostle John confessed that he did to a man who "was not following along " with the other disciples-- that is to try to prevent him. Jesus gave the disciples a stern warning not to try to prevent such a one who was working in his name.(Mark 9)

    There is every indication that civil conversation was the means of fellowship and ultimate unity. Jesus was a great exemplar of open conversation and fearless dialog. He usually referenced his comments to scripture but often he would say "get the sense of it" or else his call to faith took his followers spiritually above and beyond the lowest common denominator of the Law.

    So glad you brought it up.

    But truly, truly we have to ask questions to be God's friend in the way that Abraham was. And then we have to listen to God's voice.
  • chuck52
    And when was the last Christian book to make the top 20? It was by a person who spoke so that others could hear. OK
  • NC77
    You got me there. I admit I didn't state that correctly, and it is a generalization, and an assumption. Perhaps I should say in my opinion, or that I know of Christians (or people who think they are Chrisitians) who think Chrisitianity is based on observing the law, on the Mosaic covenant. Additionally, they seem to be ignorant of the fact that all who are chosen by God and called of God are the seed of Abraham and their righteousness is established by God through faith in Christ.

    They continue to seek justification and righteousness before God by observing the law rather than faith in Christ. Consequently by attempting to establish a righteouness based on observing the law, they continue to disobey the law, proving themselves sinners in need of a savior.
  • Charles Kiker
    I don't know wheter Hosea would have supported the estate tax. I'm pretty sure that Isaiah would, in principle if not in exact detail. "Woe to those who join house to house, and field to field, until there is no room left in the land" [for the people?] And what about that troublesome year of Jubilee, and those troublesome 7th year manumissions and debt relief? And that troublesome note about just gathering enough manna for one day at a time, except for the Sabbath? "Give us this day our bread for today." Amassing of wealth is contrary to the spirit of both OT and NT. I am generally not a proof texter, but, for those who are, I will cite Luke 1:53 and compare that to the Lukan beatitude Luke 6:21. See also James 5:1-3, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the parable of the man who needed more barns to store up his wealth, etc.
  • Charles Kiker
    Squeaky, ". . . it is dangerous NOT to question our own faith." AMEN!
  • "Most Christians erroneously think Christianity is based primarily on the Law"

    Really? Like whom?
  • ajm1203
    Check out The Ordinary Radicals documentary, where McLaren speaks on Christianity and capitalism: "One of the really powerful, and I think, subtle and dangerous framing stories of our day, some of us call 'theo-capitalism'. This is an approach to economics that basically gives free markets almost divine power, just like back in Jesus' day -- they were ready to give divine power to Caesar."

    http://www.theordinaryradicals.com/
  • What I see is the reduction of the bible to any of the 400 self-help books at my local Barnes and Noble. If I want a better way to live, I'll read, "I'm ok, you're ok."
  • pm_nels
    I think you're talking about bibliolatry - the worship of ink on paper rather than worship of the Author/Word. And it seems that taking God's words and using them to rebuke, correct etc can very easily devolve into manipulating people into accepting my view/interpretation/dogma.
  • pm_nels
    Thank you for that - well put.
    "A loving relationship with God is more than a knowledge of the love letters and knowing His biography." - Exactly. John Eldredge said "God is a person not a doctrine". Yet the love letters and biography are only a couple of windows into knowing, loving, being loved by God. "
    Is the Holy Spirit now superfluous since the Bible is all sufficient?" Great question... It is so tempting to want to 'diligently study the scriptures because I think that in them I find eternal life', but use of the scriptures to rebuke, correct can easily degenerate into the manipulation of spiritually 'lesser' people into accepting my dogma. If I don't actually experience God (Holy Spirit) myself then the scriptures are just ink on paper...
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