The people of isreal every seventh year had what was the year of jubilee in which all debt was forgiven and all the wealth was evenly distrubited amongst everyone. Is that the same as socialism?

"how can you pretend to have a biblically sound discussion of any kind when your core understanding of salvation is anti-biblical?"

Maybe she sees salvation as rooted in something other than the Bible?

"How does one have a rational conversation with those from your viewpoint when you hold to the ability to be able to change all rules of discussion by picking and choosing which parts of scripture you will believe?"

Because rational discussion is rooted in reason and respect and not competition over who is right?

"explain to me how one arrives at such a place to blatantly deny clear biblical teaching and still profess to be a follower of Christ."

She hasn't denied anything Biblical.

"Either Jesus meant what He said when He said salvation was not possible outside of Him or else He was a liar"

What if that is not what He meant? Then He's not a liar, Patricia can still be saved and you are merely temporarily misguided.

There are many nonbelievers among professing Christians.

You cannot know Him without loving the least of these.

Patricia - Your most recent post has brought some clarity to why you and I are such polar opposites in so many areas. Our view of the truth and authority of scripture is vastly different, so any discussion about interpretation is certainly fruitless. I don't mean this to be mean or contemptuous, but how can you pretend to have a biblically sound discussion of any kind when your core understanding of salvation is anti-biblical? How does one have a rational conversation with those from your viewpoint when you hold to the ability to be able to change all rules of discussion by picking and choosing which parts of scripture you will believe? I so sincerely am not trying to by ugly here, but please explain to me how one arrives at such a place to blatantly deny clear biblical teaching and still profess to be a follower of Christ. Either Jesus meant what He said when He said salvation was not possible outside of Him or else He was a liar....and if He was a liar, than nothing He said about eternal life is worthy of following. Even your word choice of "different paths" directly violates core, red-letter words of Jesus who said He was THE way and later described His path as being narrow and one few would find.
No doubt, God is capable about bringing good through the efforts of nonbelievers and no doubt, the church is too often put to shame by the care and generosity of those outside its walls (in comparison to those inside). But in the end, it's not about works or doing good - it is about relationship - true relationship with God - knowing Him and glorifying Him forever. And those who walk in true relationship with God are transformed to walk (and want to walk) in relationship with those they come in contact with of all races, socioeconomics, abilities, etc...

Hi NC77 -

It is hard to access the blog today...

I had a paragraph in my original response dealing with the reality that our efforts will always be flawed, but took it out because I was getting too long - guess I should have left it in :). I'm not maintaining that efforts will be perfect, just that they will be active, and most of the time (allowing for our sinful nature) will be visible fruits. So I think we mostly agree.

I am not so sure that works without salvation are doomed to fail, though - I can't say that Mahatma Ghandi's efforts were/are a failure, and there are probably other good works of nonbelievers that have achieved success. I guess I prefer to believe that God is capable of bringing about good through the efforts of humans whether they believe in God or not :).

Also, those who are trying to do good with a secular humanist foundation might be approachable through faith more readily in some ways than those who are not at least concerned with justice. I think Christians could provide the connection that might bridge the faith gap for those who are already seeking to do good?

I have to confess that I don't hold the belief that only Christians will be saved, either. Christianity is my path, but it's possible that God has called others to different paths - it's not up to me to decide and I won't know until after I'm not here any more. I'll let God handle that one. I imagine we don't quite see eye to eye on this one :).

Patricia,

Yes it makes sense and I like how you put it, i.e., the "tension" of faith and works. Very good way to express it. We know he said to help the poor. But we also know of the parable of those who did all kinds of works in his name, yet on judgement day he told those people to depart from him because he did not know them. And they did the works in the Lord's name no less.

So I would take exception to not being saved (by faith) if my works were not perfect. I take exception because it is also possible that if my works were perfect (and we all know that is impossible because I have already missed perfection from a young age), it is still possible I might not achieve or receive eterenal life with God. Do you know what I mean?

Anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there as food for thought and reflection on the tension between faith and works. I agree if the fruit is not there, it is likely the tree is not a fruit tree. I have seen in the past and still do today, social justice being done in the name of social justice and therefore social justice is glorified rather than Jesus.

Here are a couple of favorite scriptures relevent to the discussion. John 14:12 - "I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greather things than these because I am going to the Father." and 1 John 3:17 - "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?"

Clearly the church in America (the U.S.) is falling short of the work Jesus has called it to. I believe the answer is for the church to return to its first love, Christ, and allow him (the Holy Spirit) be the driving force. Simply sending out a call for social justice for the sake of social justice, without the regenerating work of Christ won't pass muster with God. In my opinion a call for social justice that is based secular humanism is doomed to fail because it seeks to glorify man rather than God.

When he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain, and after he had sat down, his disciples came to him. He began to teach them, saying: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the land. BLESSED ARE THEY WHO HUNGER AND THIRST FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, FOR THEY WILL BE SATISFIED. BLESSED ARE THE MERCIFUL, FOR THEY WILL BE SHOWN MERCY. Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God. BLESSED ARE THE PEACEMAKERS, FOR THEY WILL BE CALLED CHILDREN OF GOD. BLESSED ARE THEY WHO ARE PERSECUTED FOR THE SAKE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, FOR THEIRS IS THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. BLESSED ARE YOU WHEN THEY INSULT YOU AND PERSECUTE YOU AND UTTER EVERY KIND OF EVIL AGAINST YOU (FALSELY) BECAUSE OF ME. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot. You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lamp stand, where it gives light to all in the house. Just so, YOUR LIGHT MUST SHINE BEFORE OTHERS, THAT THEY MAY SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND GLORIFY YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place. THEREFORE, WHOEVER BREAKS ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES OTHERS TO DO SO WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN." Matthew 5:1-19 (my caps)

Jesus' ministry was one of social justice!

In an e-mail dated December 12, 2005, my dear friend Matias Carnevale Cano in Argentina, wrote:

"I am re-reading Keith Akers' manuscript, Broken Thread: The Fate of the Jewish Followers of Jesus in Early Christianity, because I keep on finding Christians who deny the relevance of a correspondence between life and faith. Many think that faith is just believing in Christ, thus they can do whatever they please...Thank God I do not follow that idea. These persons would not accept the importance of vegetarianism or even leading a simple life, such a pity. If what they have to give is 'love', it takes just a look to see what the world is becoming because of this Christian 'love.' "

Repeating Psalm 37:11, Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5) Here Jesus refers to Isaiah’s vision (11:6-9) of the future Kingdom of Peace, where the earth is restored to a vegetarian paradise. (Genesis 1:29-31) Jesus taught his followers to pray for the coming of God’s kingdom and to do God’s will “on earth as it is in heaven.” (Matthew 6:9-10)

The kingdom of God belongs to the gentle and kind. “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.” (Matthew 5:7-9) “Be merciful, just as your Father is also merciful.” (Luke 6:36)

Jesus called the peacemakers or pacifists sons of God, because they emulate God’s universal and unconditional love. “He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Therefore, be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:45-48; Luke 6:32-35)

Although the Ten Commandments teach “thou shalt not kill,” Jesus extended this morality to the point where one must never even get angry without cause. (Matthew 5:21-22) And although the Ten Commandments teach “thou shalt not commit adultery,” Jesus taught that “whoever looks upon a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28)

The Bible limits compensation to “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth,” but Jesus taught his followers not to defend themselves against attack or aggression. “All who take up the sword must perish by the sword,” Jesus warned. (Matthew 26:52) The Bible teaches men to love their neighbors and hate their enemies, but Jesus taught them to love their enemies and bless and pray for their persecutors. (Matthew 5:38-44; Luke 6:27-29)

Jesus forbade divorce, except for unfaithfulness. When asked why Moses permitted divorce, Jesus replied that it was a concession to the hardness of the heart. He insisted upon the moral standards given by God at the beginning. (Matthew 5:31-32, 19:3-9; Mark 10:2-12; Luke 16:18)

Jesus told his followers there is no need to pray to God for material blessings or even necessities. (Matthew 6:8,31-33; Luke 12:29-30) God’s compassion extends to all creation and He will easily provide for all of man’s needs:

“Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them...Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow, they neither toil nor spin. And yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Now if God so clothes the grass of the field...will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?" (Matthew 6:26-30; Luke 12:24-28)

Jesus and his disciples lived lives of voluntary poverty and preached God’s word among “the poor.” When asked why he ate with sinners, he replied, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Matthew 9:10-13; Mark 2:15-17; Luke 5:29-32)

In the 1986 (updated) edition of A Vegetarian Sourcebook, Keith Akers notes that there was a link in Judaism between meat-eating and animal sacrifices, that the prophetic tradition to which Jesus belonged attacked animal sacrifices, and that Jesus attacked the practice of animal sacrifice by driving the money-changers and their animals out of the Temple. He concludes, “The evidence indicates that for those who first heard the message of Jesus... the rejection of animal sacrifices had directly vegetarian implications.”

Jesus taught humility and servitude. “You know the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you, but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave.” (Matthew 20:25-27; Mark 10:42-44; Luke 22:25-27) When his disciples argued amongst themselves who would be the greatest, Jesus told them, “If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all.” (Matthew 23:11; Mark 9:33-35) On another occasion he explained, “For he who is least among you all will be great.” (Luke 9:48) According to Jesus, “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:12; Luke 14:11)

Jesus told his disciples they were to think of themselves as unprofitable servants who simply do their duty. (Luke 17:7-10) Jesus even washed the feet of his disciples after the Last Supper, to set an example to his disciples about humility and equality before God. (John 13:1-16)

Jesus taught that before God, no one can be called good. (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19) He saw the righteous and the wicked with equal vision. When Jesus was informed about Galileans who suffered at the hands of Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, he responded: “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

“Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them,” Jesus continued. “Do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5)

The Pharisees apparently claimed religious leadership without such humility before God. “If you were (spiritually) blind,” Jesus told them on one occasion, “you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore, your sin remains.” (John 9:41)

According to Luke, the Pharisees trusted in their own righteousness and therefore looked down upon others. Jesus told a parable of two men—a Pharisee and a tax collector—praying at Temple. The Pharisee prayed, “God, I thank You that I am not like the other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all I possess.”

Meanwhile, the tax collector stood off in the distance. He would not even raise his eyes towards heaven, but merely prayed, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!” Jesus said it was the tax collector who went home justified, not the Pharisee, for “everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 18:9-14)

Jesus instructed his followers to perform their charity, prayer and fasting in private. Religious devotion must never become a means to adulation, fame and social recognition. (Matthew 6:1-6,16-18) Jesus’ disciples did not fast in the same manner as the disciples of John the Baptist or the Pharisees (Matthew 9:14-17; Mark 2:18-22; Luke 5:33-39), but they did fast. (Matthew 6:16-18) Jesus even taught that certain kinds of demons could only be exorcised through prayer and fasting. (Matthew 17:14-21; Mark 9:17-29) Jesus taught constant prayer. (Luke 21:36) He often withdrew into the wilderness to pray. (Luke 5:16) At least once, Jesus went to the mountains and spent the night in prayer. (Matthew 14:23; Mark 6:46; Luke 6:12)

Jesus explained that celibacy is not something everyone can practice; it is meant only for those whom God has ordained it. He used the euphemism “eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven,” recalling his euphemism about denying or dismembering bodily urges rather than having the entire body destroyed by sin. (Matthew 5:29-30, 18:8-9, 19:10-12)

The apparent celibacy of Jesus is unusual by ancient Hebrew standards. The Bible does call for temporary abstinences, under certain circumstances. According to the Talmud, Moses voluntarily chose to give up sexual relations with his wife after he received his call from God. He reasoned that if the Israelites, to whom the Lord spoke only once and briefly, were ordered to abstain from sexual relations temporarily (Exodus 19:10,15), then he—being in continual dialogue with God—should remain celibate.

Philo of Alexandria tells us that to sanctify himself, Moses cleansed himself of “all the mortal calls of nature, food and drink and intercourse with women. This last he had disdained for many a day, almost from the time when, possessed by the Spirit, he entered on his work as a prophet, since he held it fitting to hold himself always in readiness to receive the oracular messages.” Given this information, Jesus’ apparent voluntary embrace of celibacy, from the time of his baptism and reception of the Spirit of God, becomes meaningful to Jews and Christians alike.

John the Baptist told the people to share half of their food and clothing with the needy. (Luke 3:11) Jesus was pleased when Zacchaeus, a wealthy tax collector, promised to give half his goods to the poor. “Today salvation has come to this house, because he is also a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and save that which was lost.” (Luke 19:2-10)

However, Jesus went even further, and called for renunciation of worldly goods. He did not regard the accumulation of material possessions as a meaningful goal in life. “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy...But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Matthew 6:19-20; Luke 12:33-34)

Jesus told the multitudes that followed him, “...whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be my disciple.” (Luke 14:25,33) “No one can serve two masters,” Jesus explained. “...he will be loyal to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon.” (Matthew 6:24; Luke 16:13)

Jesus had no interest in worldly disputes over money and property. (Luke 12:13-14) “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.” Jesus condemned those who lay up treasures for themselves, but are not rich towards God. (Luke 12:15-21)

In his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), Jesus expressed concern for materialistic persons. When a rich, young ruler came to Jesus and said he had kept God’s commandments since youth, Jesus prized him dearly and replied, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow me.” The man went away, saddened. Jesus observed that it is hard for those attached to earthly riches to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:16-24; Mark 10:17-23; Luke 18:18-25)

Jesus even demanded the renunciation of family ties. (Luke 14:26) It appears Jesus had little contact even with his own family; he regarded only those who do God’s will as his brethren. (Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 3:31-35; Luke 8:19-21) When a woman said to Jesus, “Blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts which nursed you,” Jesus replied, “More blessed still are those who hear and keep the word of God.” (Luke 11:27-28)

Perhaps the most famous narrative depicting Jesus as a Jewish religious reformer is John 8:1-11. Jesus was teaching people at Temple early in the morning. The scribes and Pharisees brought to him a woman caught in the act of adultery. “Now Moses, in the Law, commanded us that such should be stoned. But what do you say?”

“Let he among you who is without sin,” Jesus responded, “cast the first stone.” The woman’s accusers all found themselves convicted by their own conscience. They released her and went away. No one was left to condemn her. “Neither do I condemn you;” Jesus told her, “go and sin no more.”

Aside from the Pharisees, the gospels and Book of Acts mention the Sadducees as the only other major school of Judaic thought. The Sadducees tended to be rich, nationalist and secularist.

The Jewish historian Josephus, who lived during the time of Jesus, wrote that the "Pharisees have delivered to the people a great many observances...which are not written into the laws of Moses and" which "the Sadducees reject," but they "are able to persuade none but the rich," whereas "the Pharisees have the multitude on their side."

Thus Jesus never rejected Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:17-19; Mark 10:17-22; Luke 16:17); only the excesses of the Pharisees with regards to its observance.

(It was Paul, not Jesus, who taught that the Law was abolished.)

NC77 -

For me, it's the tension of faith and works. There is no work that a human can do that will make him or her worthy of salvation. But, salvation (faith) without works is empty and false.

So, I would say that if you (generic) think you are saved (through faith in Christ), but you do not give anything to or care about the poor, then you do not really have faith and are not really saved.

I think if a person accepts the salvation Jesus offers, that person also accepts the instructions and teachings He left with His church. They go together.

I say "required" because Jesus clearly instructed his followers to care for the poor and the sick. He didn't say, "if you want to", He didn't say, "if you feel like it", He didn't say, "if it's convenient", He didn't say, "as long as it doesn't impact the comfort of your lifestyle", and He didn't say, "when the poor really deserve it" - He said to care for the poor and the sick - no qualifiers.

He said His followers will be known and identifiable by their fruits, so I believe, no fruits, no real follower.

Does that make sense?

You're slicing the baloney mighty thin here.

I have yet to see Mr. Tinajero acknowledge anything besides "social justice" as essential to Christianity. He certainly seems to deny the possibility of an apolitical Christianity, a denial that is very problematic. He flips back and forth between justice -- a very important value in the Bible with a well-understood meaning -- and social justice, which is a rather vague rhetorical device that is almost exclusively used by the left.

I said at the beginning of the whole argle-bargle that I wouldn't join Mr. Beck in running away from a church that embraced Social Justice. But I would want nothing to do with a church that elevated any ideological posture to the level of dogma, which Mr. Tinejero sure seems to be doing here.

LV

Well, I have asked several times for conservative commenters to refer me to a conservative christian site where I can freely debate and argue a progressive point of view without being blocked- so far, not a single response.
And Agjosh, your use of loaded terms like" intolerant" , "judgmental" and worst of all "spewing" directed at "liberals here" is hardly a model of civil discourse. I would like to suggest you address specific ideas or characterizations or other specific language by a commenter. You, after all, are the one who has chosen to come to a site organized by Christians with liberal or progressive political views.

Lord_Voldemort wrote, in response to jonabark:

"He never says social justice is equivalent to the gospel." – jonabark

"By fearing churches that speak out for social justice, Beck fears the gospel." -- Ernesto Tinajero

I rest my case.

In reply to L Voldemort jonabark argues as follows:
I cannot see how this establishes equivalence. Here is my logic. Speaking out for social justice may be an essential component of the gospel without being the sum and substance of the gospel. An alternate example may clarify: There is no way to have an operable car without an engine, but the engine is not the car. It would be meaningless to want to drive cars if you were unwilling to turn on and engage the engine. To be terrified of turning on engines would be the same as being afraid of driving cars. But it would not make the engine the same as the car. That is the logic I find in the sentence.

In the same way it is reasonable to argue, and I find this to be the gist of Mr. Tinajero’s argument, that it is meaningless to speak of the gospel without including peacemaking, sharing food, forgiveness and other essential teachings of Jesus.

My point is not to construct a logic by which a particular interpretation is correct but simply to point out that the logic of Mr. Tinajero’s language does not necessarily imply the equivalence you are making.

Here is the passage from Mathew chapter 7 (KJV): "1 Judge not, that ye be not judged . 2 For with what judgment ye judge , ye shall be judged : and with what measure ye mete , it shall be measured to you again . 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold , a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

What it says, so clearly and eloquently is that a person should look into the "beam" in one's own eye before dealing with the "mote" in another's eye. How could it be any clearer? As for commentaries, I have read a few. These commentaries are all written by humans (not God) and thus subject to human interpretation. The commentators are not God and I doubt that any one of them proport to be God.

As for "orthodox" and "unorthodox." These are definitions made up by human beings -- and thus are also subject to human interpretation. The use of the word "orthodoxy" does not remove the human opinions of those who use this word.

You do not speak for God. Only God can speak for Himself.

Not discussing losing one's salvation, but encouraging you to re-read the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus as Jesus told it in Luke. It appears the idea of building bigger barns to hold one's profit or increase while failing to feed the beggar at his feet, found the rich man in a place of torment after his death. Whether you want to argue if the rich man ever knew truth or not, he certainly did not demonstrate fruit of one who did.

As Jesus told the Pharisee's, You worry about the outward appearances of keeping the law with your ceremonial cleaning of the cup. Give what you have inside the cup to the poor, then you will be considered righteous.

The question for me is more, if you have eternal life by accepting the atonement and seeking to follow Christ, why aren't you feeding the poor?

Like the bible says, if you know Jesus, his commandments are not hard to follow. Take a hard look at the Jesus you follow and see if your actions mimic his. Only you can answer this question for yourself.

"He never says social justice is equivalent to the gospel." -- jonabark

"By fearing churches that speak out for social justice, Beck fears the gospel." -- Ernesto Tinajero

I rest my case.

LV

AMEN!!!! Well said.

The reason I use the word orthodoxy is because it inherently removes opinion and view from the equation. In order to take the views often subscribed to here as orthodox, one must first change the definition of that word.
As to Matthew 7:1, you might want to check out some commentary on what that passage speaks of. It is not at all about discerning right from wrong (or in this case orthodox from unorthodox), but about passing eternal sentence on someone. Your misuse of this verse further demonstrates the problem of unconstrained, isogetical approaches to scripture.

Patricia,

That sounds like a reasonable answer and interpretation. I think there is more to it from a social justice perspective, and in what Jesus expects of us.

I have to run soon so I will pick this up later tonight or tomorrow morning. Plus it will give some time to think about it from your perspective.

My perspective is pretty much the same as yours with some additional revelation I received from the Holy Spirit many years ago working on a research project for a college social studies class (go figure :-) ) about the homeless in Baltimore Maryland.

Concerning your statement, "...He is so clear in other parts of the Gospels that caring for the poor is not something we have an option to do, but something we are required to do as believers and followers of Him."

For clarification, do you believe Jesus taught that a person who does not care for the poor cannot have eternal life as Jesus presented it to his disciples and others? In other words, if I am saved (through faith in Christ) and I do not give anything to the poor and I do not care about the poor, will I lose my salvation because giving to the poor is an essential step for salvation?

I am just trying to clarify what the "required to do" part of the statement means to you. Is it a step towards salvation or a fruit of salvation? Thanks for the discussion. Catch you later.

And which churches would be preaching/teaching Marxism or Communism. I thought they were pretty much atheists.

Here's my story. My parents never gave their tithe to care for widows, orphans, or strangers in our midst. As A Preacher's Kid, I never heard the sermon. Our tithe was for the purpose of managing church finances period or for spreading the gospel in other countries. In the 30 plus years I attended various churches, I never heard a sermon on giving for the purpose of taking care of widows and orphans and the strangers amongst us.

It truly wasn't until I began to do a personal comparative study on the Old and New Testament God, that I realized how God's people are often led into captivity or fail to receive his blessings because of their failure to care for widows, orphans and strangers in their midst. That led me to a more in depth study as to the nature of God. I believe we do reap what we sow. Avoiding theological issues here, I'm pretty well convinced that the whole format of a church that survives only to usher sheep in and out Sundays, Wed. and occasionally Missionary special event services has perhaps failed to hit the mark all together.

Serving a church or pastoring a church is about equipping those members to serve each other and their community. We were too tired going through the motions of getting ready for all those other programs to actually serve our neighbors.

As a small child I vividly remember one neighbor, crippled with arthritis and without support of family, killing himself. We were always rushing off to church.

I also frequently heard over the years, "we don't help people who don't attend our own congregation". Now that, I know isn't in the bible just based on the story of the Good Samaritan.

As a pastor, I would strongly encourage you to open handedly begin loving your community and see how God transforms your church and your congregation. Those are the stories we need to hear multiplied. Then people may begin flocking to our churches instead of placing their hope in government. You may also find your own circumstances become more bountiful. Until then, I'm unafraid of allowing my government to also be a hand of God, by helping those less fortunate than I have an opportunity to become all God sees them being.

Agjosh wrote: "As to your opinion, you are certainly entitled to it. However, I am tired of liberal "theology" that seeks to destroy the church and I will call you and everyone else out who corrupts, abuses, and violates Biblical orthodoxy. Furthermore, when your opinion is judgmental,"

And your opinion (about people who supposedly corrupt, abuse, and violate YOUR VIEW and YOUR OPINION about Biblical orthodoxy) is NOT being judgmental??

As for Scripture reference, Matthew 7:1 will suffice.