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Jubilee on Wall Street: Reimagining God's Vision in Action

by Shane Claiborne 10-06-2008 | 5:02pm
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All the ruckus on Wall Street has created an incredible moment for the kingdom of God. Across the planet folks are asking questions like: "Can the world afford the American dream?" "Does God's vision for the world look like Wall Street's?" "Will the world ever be safe as long as masses live in poverty so that a handful can live however they wish?"

No doubt, many are taking great courage from the promise that we are not to worry about tomorrow, nor to build storehouses for the future, but to rest in the assurance that God takes care of the lilies and the sparrows who shame even Solomon in all his riches.

It warrants us take a closer look at the fragile world in which we now live. As we read the newspaper in one hand and the Bible in the other, it is amazing to see how timely these ancient words are -- from Daniel's vision of an imperial statue that falls because its feet are brittle to John's revelation of the fall of Babylon as the world watches in awe (after all, the word revelation shares the root "reveal" and invokes the idea of an "unveiling", or a ripping away the veil to show what lies underneath it all ... sort of like in the Wizard of Oz). And of course, perhaps more than ever before, we see an urgent, desperate need to reimagine and invoke God's vision of Jubilee -- a systemic dismantling of inequality by which debts of the poor are forgiven, property is redistributed, and slaves are freed. What would it look like?

A couple of years ago, two things happened. First, we won a lawsuit over police misconduct in New York City. The police had been arresting homeless people for sleeping in public and charging them with disorderly conduct. Hundreds of folks rallied to bring attention to this situation, and many of us slept outside to express our feeling that it shouldn't be a crime to sleep in public. I was arrested one night as I slept. Through a long legal process, I was found not guilty, and then I filed a civil suit of wrongful arrest, wrongful prosecution, and police misconduct. And we won, in addition to a legal precedent, around $10,000. But we figured the money didn't belong to me or to the Simple Way but to the homeless in New York for all they endure. It was their victory.

The second thing that happened was that after our study of biblical economics, we were given an anonymous gift of $10,000, money which had been invested in the stock market and now was being returned to the poor.

So $20,000 was enough to stir up the collective imagination. What would it look like to have a little Jubilee celebration today? The idea rippled far beyond the Simple Way, and before long, friends from all over were thinking about it, with smiles on their faces. Where should we have it? Where else but on Wall Street, in the face of the world's economy? We also decided that this was not a one-time celebration but an ancient celebration, going back to Leviticus 25, and an eternal celebration of the New Jerusalem. We decided to send $100 to a hundred different communities that incarnate the spirit of jubilee and the economics of love. Each $100 bill had "love" written on it. And we invited everyone to Wall Street for the Jubilee.

After months of laughter and dreaming, it really happened. It was a big day. And we were ready (though we still had butterflies in our bellies). About 40 people brought all the change they could carry, more than 30,000 coins in bags, coffee mugs, briefcases, and backpacks. Another 50 people would be meeting us on Wall Street. A dozen "secret stashers" ran ahead hiding hundreds of two-dollar bills all over lower Manhattan-in parks, napkin holders, phone booths. At 8:15 we started trickling into the public square in front of the main entrance to the New York Stock Exchange. We deliberately dressed to blend in; some of us looked homeless (some were), others looked like tourists, and others business folks. Word of the redistribution had spread throughout New York, and nearly a hundred folks from the alleys and projects had gathered. We had choreographed the celebration like a play production, making Wall Street the stage of our theatrics of counter-terror. At 8:20, Sister Margaret, our 70-year-old nun, and I stepped forward to proclaim the Jubilee.

"Some of us have worked on Wall Street, and some of us have slept on Wall Street. We are a community of struggle. Some of us are rich people trying to escape our loneliness. Some of us are poor folks trying to escape the cold. Some of us are addicted to drugs, and others are addicted to money. We are a broken people who need each other and God, for we have come to recognize the mess that we have created of our world and how deeply we suffer from that mess. Now we are working together to give birth to a new society within the shell of the old. Another world is possible. Another world is necessary. Another world is already here."

Then Sister Margaret blew the ram's horn (like our Jewish ancestors used to) and we announced, "Let the celebration begin!" 10 people stationed on balconies above the crowd threw hundreds of dollars in paper money, filling the air. Then they dropped banners which read, "Stop terrorism," "Share," "Love," and "There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for everyone's greed-Gandhi."

The streets turned silver. Our "pedestrians," "tourists," "homeless," and "business people" began pouring out their change. We decorated the place with sidewalk chalk and filled the air with bubbles. Joy was contagious. Someone bought bagels and started giving them out. People started sharing their winter clothes. One of the street sweepers winked at us as he flashed a dustpan full of money. Another guy hugged someone and said, "Now I can get my prescription filled."

The police had come in full force but were quite disarmed by the fun (hard not to smile at bubbles and sidewalk chalk). One of them later told me he was ordered to "get rid of them," but he couldn't tell who "they" were. Laughing, he said next time we have a jubilee, we could do it outside his station.

It worked. We had no idea what would happen. We knew it was dangerous, intentionally bringing God and mammon face to face. But this is precisely what we have committed our lives to. It's risky, and yet we are people of faith, believing that giving is more contagious than hoarding, that love can convert hatred, light can overcome darkness, and grass can pierce concrete

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by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 11:51am

Buffett's dad was a stock broker. That's where I think he gets his economic smarts.

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 12:51pm

I can agree with Shane's ideas as they relate to the church and individual giving but not the public sphere.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-07-2008 @ 2:01pm

A few obeservations:

1. Whoever made this video is understandably concerned about the distribution of wealth, but the numbers are used in confusing ways. First we are given a comparison of executive wages and average wages from 1965, but then we are told what the trend was over the last 20 years -- without being told where things actually stood 20 years ago.

If we go back 35 years, then we are including the Great Society, our most ambitious attempt yet to redistribute wealth. Even if we limit ourselves to 20 years that still includes the Glorious Clinton Epoch -- but not the cruel, heartless Reagan administration.

Furthermore, we don't have a source and aren't told if these numbers account for inflation or not. In short, these numbers look scary but its hard to know for sure just exactly what they mean.

2. You are painfully aware of the tragedies of the current economic system. That's nice. Are you willing to acknowledge the tragedies of other economic systems? In particular do you recall the oppression and poverty that have been associated with doctrinaire Marxism? Even the Chinese Communist party eventually abandoned that. I don't really think that's what you intend, but has anybody thought through how you can avoid that trap? Another world is possible, and some sort of change is inevitable at some point, but will it be an improvement?

3. When 1 percent of the world owns 49 percent of the world's wealth, something is wrong. But what exactly?

4. Again, you assume that we are enriched specifically because others are poor. Could you please explain how that works? Please describe the mechanism by which the poor are turning assets over to me or my friends and receiving nothing in return.

Markets, properly understood, are based on exchanges of goods or services in which both parties at worst break even and most often come out at least slightly ahead. If this were not the case, the exchanges would not be agreed to. There are exceptions to be sure, but this is the general rule and it is generally true.

5. The second half of this video is just pathetic. The scenes of people scrambling for dollars and coins -- grasping for the smallest tokens of material wealth -- is humiliating. If anything you degraded people in this display.

Usually when rappers or punk athletes "make it rain" they invite strippers and throw hundred dollar bills. Other than that, the scene is pretty much the same. Congratulations, you found a way to "make it rain" on the cheap.

Materialism is folly, and what you did was just more of the same. If this is Jubilee I want no part of it.

LV

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 3:08am

When I went to the Simipleway site there was no email for Shane personally. I took that, as he didn't want to clutter his life with reading too much email. And I respect that. Sounds like he is plenty busy.
I should make another effort to contact his staff.

I can't wait to find a copy of some of his publications at a library. Its not the sort of thing most people in Orange County CA request from their library.

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 3:20am

While I was growing up in Council Bluffs Iowa his family was running a furniture store in Omaha. He was still living in the same house all these years until only recently. He suggests that his father did not have a talent for making money, although most people would have been doing well to own a local business in the downtown. This family always had an influence on local politics. He is an intuitive rather than schooled.

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 3:54pm

I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did.

Alternatively, perhaps that a market system that leaves people behind or intentionally oppresses them for monetary gain is neither a just nor a sustainable system. This pretty much describes our "free market" system where people are treated as just another asset to be bought and sold, used and discarded when they have no more use. "Another world is possible. Another world is necessary. Another world is already here."

I think that those of us who share in the advantages of this system are open to some of the Bible's harshest criticism. All of us who take advantage of this system by buying all the cheap things made by exploited workers and hording our money instead of caring for our brothers and sisters should join in that march down Wall St. in sack cloth. (I would be right in the midst of that congregation.) The thieves will be prosecuted.

"You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment. All the workers you've exploited and cheated cry out for judgment. The groans of the workers you used and abused are a roar in the ears of the Master Avenger. You've looted the earth and lived it up. But all you'll have to show for it is a fatter than usual corpse. In fact, what you've done is condemn and murder perfectly good persons, who stand there and take it." James 5

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 4:05pm

Funny with all that money being made that it just never seems to work out that way. More wealth but more poverty. The super rich just keep getting richer but more folks slide into poverty.

I think that $20K did a lot of good. Look how much awareness it created. Who can say where that money ended up or how God was able to use it?

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 4:09pm

"I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did."

Where? Where did God say the money belonged to the poor?

Why isn't there any respect for people who work hard, earn lots of money, then give money away to support endeavors such as The Simple Way? Why is it so hard to understand that it takes money to run ministries?

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 4:25pm

To expand on why the numbers used are confusing/misleading...

The video appears to look at wages (again, we don't know exactly what stats it uses because the sources are not given). Only using wages leaves out government cash assistance through tax credits and all non cash assistance such as medicare, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, school lunch subsidies, and the like. All of which have generally increased over the last 30 years.

If you want a more accurate assessment look at the Department of Labor's household expenditure statistics. Those in the bottom quintile today have about the same inflation adjusted household expenditures as those in the middle class in 1970. The rich and the poor are doing better because the rich and the poor are doing better. It doesn't help the poor when rich people do worse.

But don't misunderstand me. I am fully aware that there are poor people suffering in America, and we need to work on solution. But this is not a solution...even if it did have bubbles and sidewalk chalk.

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 4:46am

I cried because it was a reminder that we still have a choice. We can live by the gospel of scarcity or we can live by the gospel of abundance. We can live as if life is a crap shoot or we can live as if God has a plan for us.

This week the news has been obsessing by the numbers, abstract representations of what we believe we are worth. A home that came from our forest, built by our labor, which provides shelter to a family that lives in it and cares for it is reduced to pieces of paper or LEDs on a stock chart. An extravagant gift that was provided by the resources of the planet is allowed to rot on its foundation while our banks argue about their worth.

Yes you all stand correct. We can not throw money at the problem of poverty. But you known what . . . that's what we have been doing. When we feel like it we haphazardly throw some money at the problem. And we view it as a problem instead of on opportunity.

The problem is we don't have a plan. We don't have a 5 year plan, a 10 year plan or even a 50 year plan to eradicate poverty.

But God has a plan. He has a 7 year plan, a 50 year plan, he has infinite plans.

by: Eric77

10-07-2008 @ 4:27pm

Your point #5 is a good one. This isn't what Jubilee looks like (neither the Biblical description nor in the definition that Shane provides at the beginning of the commentary). Homeless people, in general, don't have financial debts of which they need to be absolved, and when they do, showering them with spare change isn't going to help them pay off those debts. They aren't slaves that need to be freed either.

There are a couple greater points here too. Showering homeless people with money isn't solving their problems or even helping them any more than it may provide them with some extra cash to buy this evening's meal. Throwing small amounts of money at the homeless and letting them scramble on the sidewalk for it is basically just some scraps off someone else's table. Now I know Shane's ministry is much, much deeper than this and other things he has done truly do make a difference in the lives of the poor. But this street theater stuff is just silly. It doesn't solve any problems and rarely gets anyone's attention.

In addition, if we're going to be talking about a Biblical Jubilee, it would make sense if we actually looked at what the Bible described when God talks in Leviticus about the once-every-50-year Jubilee. It's a very specific, almost legalistic, description of what the Israelites are supposed to do every 50 years - but in the end, slaves are freed, property is returned to people who had to sell it because they became poor, and financial debts are forgiven. None of this is actually taking place in this "Jubilee on Wall Street".

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 6:15am

Tavis Smiley was chacing your hearts tonight after the debates.

He was holding their feet to the fire and asking why it is these guys can't find the courage to say the p word.

by: DITE

10-08-2008 @ 6:28am

Not true. The world has become much wealthier over the last 30 years, and the global extreme poverty rate has dropped significantly.

by: RobbJK

10-08-2008 @ 7:11am

You'll be able to get into contact with him through those organizations that he supports. That's what I did.

by: sigride

10-07-2008 @ 4:55pm

This is really odd to me. It doesn't seem like something Jesus ever felt the need to do. He loves poor people, he hates that people exploit poor people, he also loves rich people. I get that. But I don't recall Him ever handing poor people money, let alone on a mass scale. In fact, he rebuked people for hanging out with him for the freebies.

It does sound like a swell party, but you'll never be able to measure that it did any good. It does sort of smack of throwing money at the problem.

The easiest way to get an idea of what Jubilee looks like is to play Monopoly with new rules -- say every 7 times around the board, all debts are cleared and land goes back to it's original owner. The game goes on much longer this way, but the results just may surprise you.

by: carlcopas

10-07-2008 @ 5:07pm

Canuckle states it well: "sometimes the only way people can understand the lunacy of modern capitalism is to be confronted with lunacy of another sphere"

Shane, keep following the Way and don't ever abandon Holy Mischief. Ancient prophets such as Hosea and Ezekiel also spoke truth to power in some pretty strange ways (Ezekiel cooked with cow dung; Hosea married a harlot)

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 2:00pm

The world sure isn't feeling wealthy from these policies today is it? Unregulated capitalism will collapse under its own weight in the same way communism did. We don't want to kill the economy with regulation but we don't want to open the storehouses to unscrupulous thieves either-- which is exactly what we did.

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 2:01pm

Shane, thank you for this great post!

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 5:16pm

You're kidding, right? I started copying the verses I found into a document, but stopped at the end of the Old Testament as I had filled three pages.

What does Job 20:19 say about our hard work, They spit out their food half-chewed, unable to relax and enjoy anything they've worked for. And why? Because they exploited the poor, took what never belonged to them.

I say that anytime we hire workers at unjust wages or buy from those that do, we've exploited the poor. As far as respect, to whom did Jesus show admiration, the rich who gave vast sums to the temple or the poor widow who gave the measly two pennies?

Ecclesiasties 2:11 says, Thus I considered all my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind and there was no profit under the sun.

Do we really have to operate under this system... to generate money to build ministries? Doesn't Jesus tell us, "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?' For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you."

May God grant peace and understanding to us all.

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 5:26pm

I agree with your last sentence, and I am willing to hear different viewpoints. I wonder if you can say the same, or do you simply wish everyone agree with your views?

Yes, Jesus held up the poor widow who gave all she had as an example. That does not mean He intends everyone to live in poverty so no one lives in wealth. If that were the case, how do you explain the parable of the talents?

by: SkipinPT

10-07-2008 @ 6:40pm

I'm glad to see that at least a few people "get" what Shane and others are up to.
It's Holy Mischief, it's a prophetically imaginative action to get peoples attention,
to wake people up about how wealthy we are and how the poor struggle to live
in our wealthy world.

This event was not an attempt to help the homeless (though it did help some). It was a
party of giving. And mostly, it was a reminder that the followers of Jesus are called
to be people of Jubilee.
The nation is not called to give to the poor. The Wall street Execs
are not called to give to the poor. Pagans are not called to give to the poor.

It's those who are called by Jesus- those who say they love him who are
to give their shirt when asked for their cloak,
to loan without interest, to feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, to not withhold the
wages of the worker, etc,. etc.

Hard work is encouraged in the scriptures- indeed it is. But according to Paul
the reason to stop stealing and work is so that you can have something to give away.
Or perhaps you might remember the parable of the man who built bigger barns to
store his grain so he could hoard his wealth away and live in luxury. In the parable
he's condemned by God.

Work hard? Sure. Make money? Sure. But remember nothing you have really
belongs to you. It's all Gods. And remember the words ascribed to Jesus in Acts:
It's better to give...you know the rest.

by: magnummysterium

10-07-2008 @ 6:47pm

I don't think the point of this celebration was to end homelessness, or to end poverty. It was a celebration. It was a celebration that says we've all been enslaved to sin, and that Wall Street represents the sin that too many people (both rich and poor) are still enslaved to. But the beautiful thing about this party is that it (seemingly) foolishly throws this money around-absurdly giving $20000 away while making a point about how attached we are to money. And the crazy thing is that it DID do good things too-one man can pay for his medicines, someone else went and started buying food for others. THIS is the Jubilee part,a real kingdom party, that represents the upside down economics of Jesus.

by: DITE

10-08-2008 @ 4:19pm

I'm giving you facts. You are claiming to speak for the feelings of the world. That's not an argument

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 4:29pm

Oh, sorry. I got lost in all of the statistical data (as opposed to glittering generalties) that you provided. I wouldn't want to do disservice to your fact-laden cerebral argument.

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 5:51pm

I am wondering, how many people you know who have dealt with homelessness? Having worked with the homeless population for three years in Paterson, New Jersey, I would have to say that I thank God for government help. There were simply too many homeless people for the faith communities in the area to be able to handle them. So to paint with a broad brush stating that the government "has no clue" seems to indicate that you believe that the government should play no role. It also seems to diminish the positive (albeit far from perfect) role the government has played in solving some of these problems. What viable alternative do you propose?

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 9:07pm

Jesus commended the widow, but he also told the rich young ruler to sell everything, give it to the poor, and follow him. Sacrificial giving in love, regardless of the amount, is what is pleasing to Jesus.

In the parable, the talents belonged to the master (God) and the servants invested them for Him (or not.) They gave them and the return on them back to the master. I don't understand the relationship to personal wealth.

Thanks for your open dialog.

by: iTalker

10-11-2008 @ 11:27pm

Shane,
A timely post and a prophetic one too!

by: littleroundtop

10-08-2008 @ 6:16pm

Well I guess ourselves for started james . We had a person stay here for about a month recently . To state the point government has no clue may not live up to your expectations of a worthy comment , but I do not find many that do with you . I donate quite a bit to the Union Gospel Mission here in Seattle , and to a local Salvation Army who have really opened up some doors as of late . A person who had quite a good iving who lost everything just wrote a book of his homeless days . If you want to have a conversation I will share the name with you of the book . I plan on getting it because unlike you I need and want to learn . I know when I sign up with the local government sources here , I get on email lists who promote governmental policies that i guess may help with the cost of homes for lower wage earners . I think we all seen as off late that may have a few snags in it .

I know if you have a real burden on your heart , this may help . Sleeping Bags help , blankets not so much . Also we have what we call a break through , we befreiended a homeless man who also was a Christian . He moved in with a person almost a year ago , then the person ditched him and he could not afford the rent . Was homelss . But just got back on his feet , and is telling us about his friends and their needs . Like this one is friendly but is a drunk , this one etc etc .

Thats what I am talking to , maybe getting a person one of those pay as you go phones , so an employer can call him or her back and he shows he can be reached . Very important if you want to get a job . or maybe the person is in need of care , but fell therough your precious government help . Yeah , your stereotypical view of others gets old James , like I said its a good book and maybe open the eyes of experts such as yourself .
see the most friend government policies of government , and you will see no solution to the problems these people face . Your wrong. Perhaps the government can expose the problem , and the church needs to do it also .

Their are many people like me , who just try and do their best . maybe not up to your standards .

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 6:37pm

"To state the point government has no clue may not live up to your expectations of a worthy comment , but I do not find many that do with you ."

No need to get personal, Mick. I was just asking a question. By your own admission, the "combined resources of both of these networks combined is inadequate to service the need."

So why would you kick out one of the two proverbial legs under the table?-- i.e. the government segment.

What would you propose in its place?

In giving your response, I would appreciate your sparing me the nasty ad hominem comment. I didn't treat you that way and do not expect to be treated in that way by you.

by: PastorAlan

10-08-2008 @ 6:58pm

James -
I am not quite sure why you replied to me. I thank God for every saint who is helped, whether by a tax funded or faith based entity, or just one person helping another.

I surely do not advocate decreasing the government segment. I would call for an increase in government spending on anti-poverty programs and would vote for a tax increase if necessary to fund them.

I also don't know what nasty comment you are referring to.

Grace and Peace,

Alan

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 10:16pm

The rich young ruler was told to sell everything because Jesus was getting at his heart, not making a sweeping, blanket statement against wealth.

And I thank you for your respectful dialog as well!

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 7:06pm

Sorry, that reply was meant for Mick- Littleroundtop.

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 7:07pm

"To state the point government has no clue may not live up to your expectations of a worthy comment , but I do not find many that do with you ."

No need to get personal, Mick. I was just asking a question. By your own admission, the "combined resources of both of these networks combined is inadequate to service the need."

So why would you kick out one of the two proverbial legs under the table?-- i.e. the government segment.

What would you propose in its place?

In giving your response, I would appreciate your sparing me the nasty ad hominem comment. I didn't treat you that way and do not expect to be treated in that way by you.

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 3:08am

When I went to the Simipleway site there was no email for Shane personally. I took that, as he didn't want to clutter his life with reading too much email. And I respect that. Sounds like he is plenty busy.
I should make another effort to contact his staff.

I can't wait to find a copy of some of his publications at a library. Its not the sort of thing most people in Orange County CA request from their library.

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 3:20am

While I was growing up in Council Bluffs Iowa his family was running a furniture store in Omaha. He was still living in the same house all these years until only recently. He suggests that his father did not have a talent for making money, although most people would have been doing well to own a local business in the downtown. This family always had an influence on local politics. He is an intuitive rather than schooled.

by: littleroundtop

10-08-2008 @ 8:04pm

No need to get personal James ? You were asking me for my experience with the homeless because of your belief I had some or were you asking because you assumed I had none ? Again James , you assuming was not personal ? You know me ?

And this was my comments that you again assumed meant I believed the government should take away all concern I guess ?

"The people I know with success stories dealing with the homeless are all religiously based , for government it seems it has no clue to doing anything but allowing hurting people to go on hurting ."

That to you indicates what ? I want the government not to feed starving people ? No what that means is i see nothing in programs from the government that takes people who are homeless and put them back into a functioning matter somewhat on their own , with the dignity and sometimes even with a ability to help others . Thats why I offered to share you a story about a man who was doing just that . Like i said if you want a conversation , I would suggest you look at your original comments to me , , We are not in a court of law ; if you wish to take the view that I can not prove that your comments suggested anything but my real concern for people , but ignorance in the situation , then I was mistaken . You have never been polite to me in the past , or many here .

I only have my discernment , and your lack of what i see honesty here James . My support is for helping people who are homeless, I would of course support a government program that feeds people , but my point is that I supporting programs that feed people , supporting politics that have pay higher incomes then all of us paying for it , gets us and the church a falese impression we are doing anything . The concern I have is for helping people not to need help .

Perhaps also it was when I spent some time living day to day for a few months myself without a home , I always had the means to have a better life , but trying to identify with people who do not have that choice is hard for me . So yes , I will stand up for them and the only way I know that supports them , through the Lord . . They often need something the government can not give them .

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 4:46am

I cried because it was a reminder that we still have a choice. We can live by the gospel of scarcity or we can live by the gospel of abundance. We can live as if life is a crap shoot or we can live as if God has a plan for us.

This week the news has been obsessing by the numbers, abstract representations of what we believe we are worth. A home that came from our forest, built by our labor, which provides shelter to a family that lives in it and cares for it is reduced to pieces of paper or LEDs on a stock chart. An extravagant gift that was provided by the resources of the planet is allowed to rot on its foundation while our banks argue about their worth.

Yes you all stand correct. We can not throw money at the problem of poverty. But you known what . . . that's what we have been doing. When we feel like it we haphazardly throw some money at the problem. And we view it as a problem instead of on opportunity.

The problem is we don't have a plan. We don't have a 5 year plan, a 10 year plan or even a 50 year plan to eradicate poverty.

But God has a plan. He has a 7 year plan, a 50 year plan, he has infinite plans.

by: mscynthia

10-08-2008 @ 6:15am

Tavis Smiley was chacing your hearts tonight after the debates.

He was holding their feet to the fire and asking why it is these guys can't find the courage to say the p word.

by: DITE

10-08-2008 @ 6:28am

Not true. The world has become much wealthier over the last 30 years, and the global extreme poverty rate has dropped significantly.

by: RobbJK

10-08-2008 @ 7:11am

You'll be able to get into contact with him through those organizations that he supports. That's what I did.

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 9:25pm

Mick,

I need comment no further. My request that you cease the personal attacks has gone unheeded.

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 2:00pm

The world sure isn't feeling wealthy from these policies today is it? Unregulated capitalism will collapse under its own weight in the same way communism did. We don't want to kill the economy with regulation but we don't want to open the storehouses to unscrupulous thieves either-- which is exactly what we did.

by: littleroundtop

10-08-2008 @ 9:34pm

"It also seems to diminish the positive (albeit far from perfect) role the government has played in solving some of these problems"

Thanks for listening and assuming James .

by: JamesM

10-08-2008 @ 2:01pm

Shane, thank you for this great post!

by: littleroundtop

10-08-2008 @ 9:41pm

Pastor Alan ,

James was directing his comments and assumptions about a conversation we chose not to have . I wasn't sure why he replied to me either .

by: cpd

10-06-2008 @ 7:08pm

"...we were given an anonymous gift of $10,000, money which had been invested in the stock market and now was being returned to the poor."

In order for something to be returned to someone it had to belong to the person in the first place. Are you saying the person who earned $10,000 in the stock market stole it from the poor? I highly doubt it.

You were given a donation by someone who more than likely worked hard and earned that money.

But if what you wrote is true I hope you prosecuted the thief to the fullest extent of the law.

Words have meaning. Choose well.

by: PastorAlan

10-06-2008 @ 7:23pm

I would encourage everyone to see the film "The Ordinary Radicals". This feature length documentary follows Shane's 'Jesus For President' Tour across America (and Canada) from the perspective of Jamie Moffet, a person who does not identify himself as a Christian from "Simple Way". This film tells the story of a number of Ordinary Radicals who strive to live out a spirit of Jubilee and Acts 2 in a world that finds both of the ideas radically peculiar.

The file also features Jim Wallis, Brian McClaren, Tony Campolo, Lisa Harper, and others.

With the release of Bill Maher's new film Religulous, I wonder what Bill's film would have looked like, if would have encountered Shane and company on Wall Street or 'The Ordinary Radicals' shown in the film?

Visit www.theordinaryradicals.com to find a screening near you or to buy the DVD.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:25pm

I love it. What a great idea. I wish their was a Simple Way community in the LA region to compliment what you are doing on your side of the country. I'm still trying to find such co conspiration in a Church Community in Orange County that has the social and spiritual courage to do things like this.
Let me know when you get an invitation to come out to speak or do a workshop in OC.
I teach music on two sides of the free way that divides people who live in gated communuties and people who live with as many as 3 families to a house. On one side are the people who do the gardening, cleaning and cooking to pay the bills and on the other side are those who run and manage businesses for a living. They live only blocks apart separated by a river of asphalt but their children rarely meet if ever.

I'm looking for people who not only see another world, but want to put their hands and feet in it, and have the inner courage to do so as well.

God bless you Shane.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:40pm

Thank you

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:52pm

I don't get how the edit button works.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: cpd

10-06-2008 @ 7:08pm

"...we were given an anonymous gift of $10,000, money which had been invested in the stock market and now was being returned to the poor."

In order for something to be returned to someone it had to belong to the person in the first place. Are you saying the person who earned $10,000 in the stock market stole it from the poor? I highly doubt it.

You were given a donation by someone who more than likely worked hard and earned that money.

But if what you wrote is true I hope you prosecuted the thief to the fullest extent of the law.

Words have meaning. Choose well.

by: cpd

10-06-2008 @ 7:08pm

"...we were given an anonymous gift of $10,000, money which had been invested in the stock market and now was being returned to the poor."

In order for something to be returned to someone it had to belong to the person in the first place. Are you saying the person who earned $10,000 in the stock market stole it from the poor? I highly doubt it.

You were given a donation by someone who more than likely worked hard and earned that money.

But if what you wrote is true I hope you prosecuted the thief to the fullest extent of the law.

Words have meaning. Choose well.

by: PastorAlan

10-06-2008 @ 7:23pm

I would encourage everyone to see the film "The Ordinary Radicals". This feature length documentary follows Shane's 'Jesus For President' Tour across America (and Canada) from the perspective of Jamie Moffet, a person who does not identify himself as a Christian from "Simple Way". This film tells the story of a number of Ordinary Radicals who strive to live out a spirit of Jubilee and Acts 2 in a world that finds both of the ideas radically peculiar.

The file also features Jim Wallis, Brian McClaren, Tony Campolo, Lisa Harper, and others.

With the release of Bill Maher's new film Religulous, I wonder what Bill's film would have looked like, if would have encountered Shane and company on Wall Street or 'The Ordinary Radicals' shown in the film?

Visit www.theordinaryradicals.com to find a screening near you or to buy the DVD.

by: PastorAlan

10-06-2008 @ 7:23pm

I would encourage everyone to see the film "The Ordinary Radicals". This feature length documentary follows Shane's 'Jesus For President' Tour across America (and Canada) from the perspective of Jamie Moffet, a person who does not identify himself as a Christian from "Simple Way". This film tells the story of a number of Ordinary Radicals who strive to live out a spirit of Jubilee and Acts 2 in a world that finds both of the ideas radically peculiar.

The file also features Jim Wallis, Brian McClaren, Tony Campolo, Lisa Harper, and others.

With the release of Bill Maher's new film Religulous, I wonder what Bill's film would have looked like, if would have encountered Shane and company on Wall Street or 'The Ordinary Radicals' shown in the film?

Visit www.theordinaryradicals.com to find a screening near you or to buy the DVD.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:25pm

I love it. What a great idea. I wish their was a Simple Way community in the LA region to compliment what you are doing on your side of the country. I'm still trying to find such co conspiration in a Church Community in Orange County that has the social and spiritual courage to do things like this.
Let me know when you get an invitation to come out to speak or do a workshop in OC.
I teach music on two sides of the free way that divides people who live in gated communuties and people who live with as many as 3 families to a house. On one side are the people who do the gardening, cleaning and cooking to pay the bills and on the other side are those who run and manage businesses for a living. They live only blocks apart separated by a river of asphalt but their children rarely meet if ever.

I'm looking for people who not only see another world, but want to put their hands and feet in it, and have the inner courage to do so as well.

God bless you Shane.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:25pm

I love it. What a great idea. I wish their was a Simple Way community in the LA region to compliment what you are doing on your side of the country. I'm still trying to find such co conspiration in a Church Community in Orange County that has the social and spiritual courage to do things like this.
Let me know when you get an invitation to come out to speak or do a workshop in OC.
I teach music on two sides of the free way that divides people who live in gated communuties and people who live with as many as 3 families to a house. On one side are the people who do the gardening, cleaning and cooking to pay the bills and on the other side are those who run and manage businesses for a living. They live only blocks apart separated by a river of asphalt but their children rarely meet if ever.

I'm looking for people who not only see another world, but want to put their hands and feet in it, and have the inner courage to do so as well.

God bless you Shane.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:40pm

Thank you

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:40pm

Thank you

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:52pm

I don't get how the edit button works.

by: mscynthia

10-06-2008 @ 7:52pm

I don't get how the edit button works.

by: littleroundtop

10-06-2008 @ 8:09pm

I am not exactly sure if Wall Street is the only one who got bailed bail out . Seems to me like Congress bailed themselves out also .

I wonder why nothing is ever written about the mental illness and addiction problems . Some people on the street are in desperate need of help , but are in a place where they will not receive that help .

I asume the ACLU and some would go nuts , but is it wrong to speak about providing places where people can get help even when they don't want it ?
The people I know with success stories dealing with the homeless are all religiously based , for government it seems it has no clue to doing anything but allowing hurting people to go on hurting .

by: littleroundtop

10-06-2008 @ 8:09pm

I am not exactly sure if Wall Street is the only one who got bailed bail out . Seems to me like Congress bailed themselves out also .

I wonder why nothing is ever written about the mental illness and addiction problems . Some people on the street are in desperate need of help , but are in a place where they will not receive that help .

I asume the ACLU and some would go nuts , but is it wrong to speak about providing places where people can get help even when they don't want it ?
The people I know with success stories dealing with the homeless are all religiously based , for government it seems it has no clue to doing anything but allowing hurting people to go on hurting .

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-06-2008 @ 8:17pm

"Can the world afford the American dream?"

What makes you think it cannot?

Okay, that's a bit glib, but the answer to that question depends on just how you define "American Dream". The truth is each American has his or her own vision. Some of those dreams might not be doable (or "sustainable" in Sojospeak) but a lot of those dreams probably can be done. Claiborne is assuming a lot here, and lumping a lot of different dreams together.

"Does God's vision for the world look like Wall Street's?"

In a lot of cases, probably not, but again you collectivize something that varies a lot according to who you are talking to. For every Gordon Gecko wannabe there's a more modest investor who just wants to retire and help his grandkids through college. I can imagine God's vision overlapping with that on a lot of occasions.

"Will the world ever be safe as long as masses live in poverty so that a handful can live however they wish?"

This is a fallacy. You cannot assume that wherever someone makes a profit it must be because someone else has been impoverished. Markets don't actually work that way.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-06-2008 @ 8:17pm

"Can the world afford the American dream?"

What makes you think it cannot?

Okay, that's a bit glib, but the answer to that question depends on just how you define "American Dream". The truth is each American has his or her own vision. Some of those dreams might not be doable (or "sustainable" in Sojospeak) but a lot of those dreams probably can be done. Claiborne is assuming a lot here, and lumping a lot of different dreams together.

"Does God's vision for the world look like Wall Street's?"

In a lot of cases, probably not, but again you collectivize something that varies a lot according to who you are talking to. For every Gordon Gecko wannabe there's a more modest investor who just wants to retire and help his grandkids through college. I can imagine God's vision overlapping with that on a lot of occasions.

"Will the world ever be safe as long as masses live in poverty so that a handful can live however they wish?"

This is a fallacy. You cannot assume that wherever someone makes a profit it must be because someone else has been impoverished. Markets don't actually work that way.

LV

by: savvyguy

10-06-2008 @ 10:02pm

interesting. sounds like shane has a fun life. i hope he is actually advocating for the homeless. there are many programs available that can help them. but, alas, most are mentally ill and are not very cooperative. some states have laws that will allow intervention and this can be very effective. wall street and government provide the jobs that generate the taxes that pay for most social programs, such as they are. try straightening out your congressmen/women. their greedy, corrupt lobbyists fees alone would fund a lot of problems. everyone should look up their legislators' contributors on the web. it is truely disgusting.

by: savvyguy

10-06-2008 @ 10:02pm

interesting. sounds like shane has a fun life. i hope he is actually advocating for the homeless. there are many programs available that can help them. but, alas, most are mentally ill and are not very cooperative. some states have laws that will allow intervention and this can be very effective. wall street and government provide the jobs that generate the taxes that pay for most social programs, such as they are. try straightening out your congressmen/women. their greedy, corrupt lobbyists fees alone would fund a lot of problems. everyone should look up their legislators' contributors on the web. it is truely disgusting.

by: PastorAlan

10-06-2008 @ 11:21pm

Savvyguy - I can only speak for Florida, but there are a woefully inadequate number of choices for the homeless. Florida's Baker Act (involuntary commitment law) only allows for a 72 hour hold, and a person has to be making suicidal statements with means to carry it out or clearly be threatening someone else in the presence of a law enforcement officer. Also many law enforcement officers are reluctant to Baker Act because the number of available beds is so small compared to the need that the person is often back out in several hours, typically with an appointment 3 or 4 weeks out for the outpatient mental health clinic. Those that are held because they are totally out of control are knocked out with a mega-dose of haldol, filed with pysch meds, and kicked back out on the street 3 days later with a hand full of prescriptions with no way to pay for them. There are apparently newer more effective psych meds out there, but most poor and homeless people are prescribed lower priced Seroquel, Trasdone, and lithium. It is common for some people taking these meds to report that they feel like a zombie or dead inside. The side effects of these drugs often make it harder for the person to obtain employment, also in a catch 22 there are a number of shelters / programs that won't accept people on these medications.

There are often two systems out there dealing with homeless issues. The official system funded by the Federal HUD continuum of care and then a non-governmental system usually made up of faith-based groups, NGO's and advocacy groups. The combined resources of both of these networks combined is inadequate to service the need.

You also have HUD showing lower homelessness numbers nationally, by their 'one day in place' count, with a new definition that doesn't count as many people as homeless as in past years. For example a family living in a van is no longer classed as homeless. Time Magazine has an article on this http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,...

One of the most effective ways to advocate is by making the invisible visible, giving voice to the voiceless.

by: PastorAlan

10-06-2008 @ 11:21pm

Savvyguy - I can only speak for Florida, but there are a woefully inadequate number of choices for the homeless. Florida's Baker Act (involuntary commitment law) only allows for a 72 hour hold, and a person has to be making suicidal statements with means to carry it out or clearly be threatening someone else in the presence of a law enforcement officer. Also many law enforcement officers are reluctant to Baker Act because the number of available beds is so small compared to the need that the person is often back out in several hours, typically with an appointment 3 or 4 weeks out for the outpatient mental health clinic. Those that are held because they are totally out of control are knocked out with a mega-dose of haldol, filed with pysch meds, and kicked back out on the street 3 days later with a hand full of prescriptions with no way to pay for them. There are apparently newer more effective psych meds out there, but most poor and homeless people are prescribed lower priced Seroquel, Trasdone, and lithium. It is common for some people taking these meds to report that they feel like a zombie or dead inside. The side effects of these drugs often make it harder for the person to obtain employment, also in a catch 22 there are a number of shelters / programs that won't accept people on these medications.

There are often two systems out there dealing with homeless issues. The official system funded by the Federal HUD continuum of care and then a non-governmental system usually made up of faith-based groups, NGO's and advocacy groups. The combined resources of both of these networks combined is inadequate to service the need.

You also have HUD showing lower homelessness numbers nationally, by their 'one day in place' count, with a new definition that doesn't count as many people as homeless as in past years. For example a family living in a van is no longer classed as homeless. Time Magazine has an article on this http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,...

One of the most effective ways to advocate is by making the invisible visible, giving voice to the voiceless.

by: jonabark

10-07-2008 @ 3:38am

Awesome

by: jonabark

10-07-2008 @ 3:38am

Awesome

by: canucklehead

10-07-2008 @ 4:27am

right on, Shane, as usual; and never mind the nay-sayers here; sometimes the only way people can understand the lunacy of modern capitalism is to be confronted with lunacy of another sphere

by: canucklehead

10-07-2008 @ 4:27am

right on, Shane, as usual; and never mind the nay-sayers here; sometimes the only way people can understand the lunacy of modern capitalism is to be confronted with lunacy of another sphere

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 5:56am

They were playing some Bob Dylan Clips on NPR to day between reports about the economy. After playing things from Simple Way related You Tube I looked up some Bob Dylan again and found this guy doing "Its alright, babe" Hope Jamie see it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/BumDog007

Its not for the faint hearted but it is very thought provoking. If he can do this to Bob Dylan imagine what he could do with Mark, Luke or John using his visual poetry.

Something tells me this would be a good time to revisit Wall street and bring friends who are very good at doing recovery churches. There's alot of people who were just the clerks, brokers and sales people who are going to soon be hitting the brutal wall of personal failure.

What an opportunity for people who have always known how difficult it is to live in the "permanent recession" to reach out to the new homeless people and say "Hey! Don't take it personally. You didn't know. This is not your fault. But you can still make a difference."

God knows that we are about to see a rise in the divorce rate, substance abuse and mental break down in the next year. It could be heart breaking or it could be an opportunity to reach people and teach them how to reconnect to community and the things that matter and make them more resilient .

How many people can we be proactive for before they resort to things that will truly destroy there living spirits ?

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 5:56am

They were playing some Bob Dylan Clips on NPR to day between reports about the economy. After playing things from Simple Way related You Tube I looked up some Bob Dylan again and found this guy doing "Its alright, babe" Hope Jamie see it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/BumDog007

Its not for the faint hearted but it is very thought provoking. If he can do this to Bob Dylan imagine what he could do with Mark, Luke or John using his visual poetry.

Something tells me this would be a good time to revisit Wall street and bring friends who are very good at doing recovery churches. There's alot of people who were just the clerks, brokers and sales people who are going to soon be hitting the brutal wall of personal failure.

What an opportunity for people who have always known how difficult it is to live in the "permanent recession" to reach out to the new homeless people and say "Hey! Don't take it personally. You didn't know. This is not your fault. But you can still make a difference."

God knows that we are about to see a rise in the divorce rate, substance abuse and mental break down in the next year. It could be heart breaking or it could be an opportunity to reach people and teach them how to reconnect to community and the things that matter and make them more resilient .

How many people can we be proactive for before they resort to things that will truly destroy there living spirits ?

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 6:08am

Oh by the way. Did I mention that this talented videographer is homeless.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 6:08am

Oh by the way. Did I mention that this talented videographer is homeless.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 6:18am

I'm glad you understand that fact. It is possible to run a business and not really pay what it actually cost to run the business. Like Wal Mart who sent their employees to the welfare system to get health care and other services.

If we could find ways to include the people who are currently left out of the economy, the people who are wealthy now would actually be making even more money. Like Warren Buffet they would have to hire a staff to help them figure out the best way to give it away so that it does not bring harm to the world.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 6:18am

I'm glad you understand that fact. It is possible to run a business and not really pay what it actually cost to run the business. Like Wal Mart who sent their employees to the welfare system to get health care and other services.

If we could find ways to include the people who are currently left out of the economy, the people who are wealthy now would actually be making even more money. Like Warren Buffet they would have to hire a staff to help them figure out the best way to give it away so that it does not bring harm to the world.

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 6:24am

What an incredible waste of $20K. It made you feel good and compassionate but did nothing to reduce homelessness.

I don't often advocate for increasing government spending, but I make an exception for institutionalizing the homeless that need to be institutionalized.

Wall Street/rich people remain the only politically correct scapegoat for the wrongs in society. But we need 'em. We need Wall Street. We need private investment expenditures. We need the world to have increased economic growth if we want to reduce the world's poverty.

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 6:24am

What an incredible waste of $20K. It made you feel good and compassionate but did nothing to reduce homelessness.

I don't often advocate for increasing government spending, but I make an exception for institutionalizing the homeless that need to be institutionalized.

Wall Street/rich people remain the only politically correct scapegoat for the wrongs in society. But we need 'em. We need Wall Street. We need private investment expenditures. We need the world to have increased economic growth if we want to reduce the world's poverty.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 9:19am

Sustainably including everyone in the economy will increase our economic growth. Increasing our economic growth at the expense of fairly including all people will actually stunt our economic growth.

We are in trouble because we have hit that barrior with the way we do things now. Something new is emerging. But it has not sprouted up where we can see it.

It may be that we are seeing the necessity of decentralizing both our energy sources and the economy. Its just not very efficient to require all the gate keepers to be in one centralized place. On the other hand we have to find ways of distributing information fairly and providing a level playing field for everyone who participates.

We need to nurture social inputs such as health, education and the environment. You can not just pull on the out puts such as the products and profits and expect things to happen. Its like testing everyday with out doing the teaching. Its like pulling a plant up by the leaves to make it grow.

Even Warren Buffet gets this.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 9:19am

Sustainably including everyone in the economy will increase our economic growth. Increasing our economic growth at the expense of fairly including all people will actually stunt our economic growth.

We are in trouble because we have hit that barrior with the way we do things now. Something new is emerging. But it has not sprouted up where we can see it.

It may be that we are seeing the necessity of decentralizing both our energy sources and the economy. Its just not very efficient to require all the gate keepers to be in one centralized place. On the other hand we have to find ways of distributing information fairly and providing a level playing field for everyone who participates.

We need to nurture social inputs such as health, education and the environment. You can not just pull on the out puts such as the products and profits and expect things to happen. Its like testing everyday with out doing the teaching. Its like pulling a plant up by the leaves to make it grow.

Even Warren Buffet gets this.

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 9:38am

What angers me is that we were compliant. NO one had the courage to say stop. This is not working. We let people who were impulsive-compulsive bully us into this tragedy.

When our economy was largely agriculturally based we asked our farmers to plant right up to the fence. We plowed land that was fragile. We ended up with the dust bowl. The Midwest is still having problems with drainage and erosion because we filled in the wet lands and planted them. ????

IF you really want a sturdy economy you still have to be honest with yourselves about the base line health of the inputs. These are non-negotiables.
If you want to increase the service sector of the economy then you better make serious inputs where human development are concerned.
I'm not and economist but I grew up observing people who's livelihoods depended on their ability to raise crops.
Where do you think Warren got his economic smarts?

by: mscynthia

10-07-2008 @ 9:38am

What angers me is that we were compliant. NO one had the courage to say stop. This is not working. We let people who were impulsive-compulsive bully us into this tragedy.

When our economy was largely agriculturally based we asked our farmers to plant right up to the fence. We plowed land that was fragile. We ended up with the dust bowl. The Midwest is still having problems with drainage and erosion because we filled in the wet lands and planted them. ????

IF you really want a sturdy economy you still have to be honest with yourselves about the base line health of the inputs. These are non-negotiables.
If you want to increase the service sector of the economy then you better make serious inputs where human development are concerned.
I'm not and economist but I grew up observing people who's livelihoods depended on their ability to raise crops.
Where do you think Warren got his economic smarts?

by: RobbJK

10-07-2008 @ 11:14am

Shane is surprisingly easy to get a hold of. I emailed him when I moved to South Korea and he's put me in contact with people here.

I'd suggest thought, that you pick up a copy of The Irresistible Revolution (or just grab it from the library) and look in the back. You'll find a list of communities that he supports and you can get into contact with them. If there is no one in LA, I'd be surprised.

by: RobbJK

10-07-2008 @ 11:14am

Shane is surprisingly easy to get a hold of. I emailed him when I moved to South Korea and he's put me in contact with people here.

I'd suggest thought, that you pick up a copy of The Irresistible Revolution (or just grab it from the library) and look in the back. You'll find a list of communities that he supports and you can get into contact with them. If there is no one in LA, I'd be surprised.

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 11:51am

Buffett's dad was a stock broker. That's where I think he gets his economic smarts.

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 11:51am

Buffett's dad was a stock broker. That's where I think he gets his economic smarts.

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 12:51pm

I can agree with Shane's ideas as they relate to the church and individual giving but not the public sphere.

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 12:51pm

I can agree with Shane's ideas as they relate to the church and individual giving but not the public sphere.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-07-2008 @ 2:01pm

A few obeservations:

1. Whoever made this video is understandably concerned about the distribution of wealth, but the numbers are used in confusing ways. First we are given a comparison of executive wages and average wages from 1965, but then we are told what the trend was over the last 20 years -- without being told where things actually stood 20 years ago.

If we go back 35 years, then we are including the Great Society, our most ambitious attempt yet to redistribute wealth. Even if we limit ourselves to 20 years that still includes the Glorious Clinton Epoch -- but not the cruel, heartless Reagan administration.

Furthermore, we don't have a source and aren't told if these numbers account for inflation or not. In short, these numbers look scary but its hard to know for sure just exactly what they mean.

2. You are painfully aware of the tragedies of the current economic system. That's nice. Are you willing to acknowledge the tragedies of other economic systems? In particular do you recall the oppression and poverty that have been associated with doctrinaire Marxism? Even the Chinese Communist party eventually abandoned that. I don't really think that's what you intend, but has anybody thought through how you can avoid that trap? Another world is possible, and some sort of change is inevitable at some point, but will it be an improvement?

3. When 1 percent of the world owns 49 percent of the world's wealth, something is wrong. But what exactly?

4. Again, you assume that we are enriched specifically because others are poor. Could you please explain how that works? Please describe the mechanism by which the poor are turning assets over to me or my friends and receiving nothing in return.

Markets, properly understood, are based on exchanges of goods or services in which both parties at worst break even and most often come out at least slightly ahead. If this were not the case, the exchanges would not be agreed to. There are exceptions to be sure, but this is the general rule and it is generally true.

5. The second half of this video is just pathetic. The scenes of people scrambling for dollars and coins -- grasping for the smallest tokens of material wealth -- is humiliating. If anything you degraded people in this display.

Usually when rappers or punk athletes "make it rain" they invite strippers and throw hundred dollar bills. Other than that, the scene is pretty much the same. Congratulations, you found a way to "make it rain" on the cheap.

Materialism is folly, and what you did was just more of the same. If this is Jubilee I want no part of it.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-07-2008 @ 2:01pm

A few obeservations:

1. Whoever made this video is understandably concerned about the distribution of wealth, but the numbers are used in confusing ways. First we are given a comparison of executive wages and average wages from 1965, but then we are told what the trend was over the last 20 years -- without being told where things actually stood 20 years ago.

If we go back 35 years, then we are including the Great Society, our most ambitious attempt yet to redistribute wealth. Even if we limit ourselves to 20 years that still includes the Glorious Clinton Epoch -- but not the cruel, heartless Reagan administration.

Furthermore, we don't have a source and aren't told if these numbers account for inflation or not. In short, these numbers look scary but its hard to know for sure just exactly what they mean.

2. You are painfully aware of the tragedies of the current economic system. That's nice. Are you willing to acknowledge the tragedies of other economic systems? In particular do you recall the oppression and poverty that have been associated with doctrinaire Marxism? Even the Chinese Communist party eventually abandoned that. I don't really think that's what you intend, but has anybody thought through how you can avoid that trap? Another world is possible, and some sort of change is inevitable at some point, but will it be an improvement?

3. When 1 percent of the world owns 49 percent of the world's wealth, something is wrong. But what exactly?

4. Again, you assume that we are enriched specifically because others are poor. Could you please explain how that works? Please describe the mechanism by which the poor are turning assets over to me or my friends and receiving nothing in return.

Markets, properly understood, are based on exchanges of goods or services in which both parties at worst break even and most often come out at least slightly ahead. If this were not the case, the exchanges would not be agreed to. There are exceptions to be sure, but this is the general rule and it is generally true.

5. The second half of this video is just pathetic. The scenes of people scrambling for dollars and coins -- grasping for the smallest tokens of material wealth -- is humiliating. If anything you degraded people in this display.

Usually when rappers or punk athletes "make it rain" they invite strippers and throw hundred dollar bills. Other than that, the scene is pretty much the same. Congratulations, you found a way to "make it rain" on the cheap.

Materialism is folly, and what you did was just more of the same. If this is Jubilee I want no part of it.

LV

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 3:54pm

I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did.

Alternatively, perhaps that a market system that leaves people behind or intentionally oppresses them for monetary gain is neither a just nor a sustainable system. This pretty much describes our "free market" system where people are treated as just another asset to be bought and sold, used and discarded when they have no more use. "Another world is possible. Another world is necessary. Another world is already here."

I think that those of us who share in the advantages of this system are open to some of the Bible's harshest criticism. All of us who take advantage of this system by buying all the cheap things made by exploited workers and hording our money instead of caring for our brothers and sisters should join in that march down Wall St. in sack cloth. (I would be right in the midst of that congregation.) The thieves will be prosecuted.

"You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment. All the workers you've exploited and cheated cry out for judgment. The groans of the workers you used and abused are a roar in the ears of the Master Avenger. You've looted the earth and lived it up. But all you'll have to show for it is a fatter than usual corpse. In fact, what you've done is condemn and murder perfectly good persons, who stand there and take it." James 5

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 3:54pm

I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did.

Alternatively, perhaps that a market system that leaves people behind or intentionally oppresses them for monetary gain is neither a just nor a sustainable system. This pretty much describes our "free market" system where people are treated as just another asset to be bought and sold, used and discarded when they have no more use. "Another world is possible. Another world is necessary. Another world is already here."

I think that those of us who share in the advantages of this system are open to some of the Bible's harshest criticism. All of us who take advantage of this system by buying all the cheap things made by exploited workers and hording our money instead of caring for our brothers and sisters should join in that march down Wall St. in sack cloth. (I would be right in the midst of that congregation.) The thieves will be prosecuted.

"You'll need buckets for the tears when the crash comes upon you. Your money is corrupt and your fine clothes stink. Your greedy luxuries are a cancer in your gut, destroying your life from within. You thought you were piling up wealth. What you've piled up is judgment. All the workers you've exploited and cheated cry out for judgment. The groans of the workers you used and abused are a roar in the ears of the Master Avenger. You've looted the earth and lived it up. But all you'll have to show for it is a fatter than usual corpse. In fact, what you've done is condemn and murder perfectly good persons, who stand there and take it." James 5

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 4:05pm

Funny with all that money being made that it just never seems to work out that way. More wealth but more poverty. The super rich just keep getting richer but more folks slide into poverty.

I think that $20K did a lot of good. Look how much awareness it created. Who can say where that money ended up or how God was able to use it?

by: dlowen

10-07-2008 @ 4:05pm

Funny with all that money being made that it just never seems to work out that way. More wealth but more poverty. The super rich just keep getting richer but more folks slide into poverty.

I think that $20K did a lot of good. Look how much awareness it created. Who can say where that money ended up or how God was able to use it?

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 4:09pm

"I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did."

Where? Where did God say the money belonged to the poor?

Why isn't there any respect for people who work hard, earn lots of money, then give money away to support endeavors such as The Simple Way? Why is it so hard to understand that it takes money to run ministries?

by: cpd

10-07-2008 @ 4:09pm

"I believe the meaning is that the money belonged to the poor already for a reason far above previous ownership, because God said it did."

Where? Where did God say the money belonged to the poor?

Why isn't there any respect for people who work hard, earn lots of money, then give money away to support endeavors such as The Simple Way? Why is it so hard to understand that it takes money to run ministries?

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 4:25pm

To expand on why the numbers used are confusing/misleading...

The video appears to look at wages (again, we don't know exactly what stats it uses because the sources are not given). Only using wages leaves out government cash assistance through tax credits and all non cash assistance such as medicare, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, school lunch subsidies, and the like. All of which have generally increased over the last 30 years.

If you want a more accurate assessment look at the Department of Labor's household expenditure statistics. Those in the bottom quintile today have about the same inflation adjusted household expenditures as those in the middle class in 1970. The rich and the poor are doing better because the rich and the poor are doing better. It doesn't help the poor when rich people do worse.

But don't misunderstand me. I am fully aware that there are poor people suffering in America, and we need to work on solution. But this is not a solution...even if it did have bubbles and sidewalk chalk.

by: DITE

10-07-2008 @ 4:25pm

To expand on why the numbers used are confusing/misleading...

The video appears to look at wages (again, we don't know exactly what stats it uses because the sources are not given). Only using wages leaves out government cash assistance through tax credits and all non cash assistance such as medicare, medicaid, food stamps, housing subsidies, school lunch subsidies, and the like. All of which have generally increased over the last 30 years.

If you want a more accurate assessment look at the Department of Labor's household expenditure statistics. Those in the bottom quintile today have about the same inflation adjusted household expenditures as those in the middle class in 1970. The rich and the poor are doing better because the rich and the poor are doing better. It doesn't help the poor when rich people do worse.

But don't misunderstand me. I am fully aware that there are poor people suffering in America, and we need to work on solution. But this is not a solution...even if it did have bubbles and sidewalk chalk.