What If All Churches Treated Women as Jesus Did?

Well, you are absolutely right. I admit it crossed my mind he was just trying to get a rise out of me, and I guess he did. At least I hope he isn't that clueless.

Which is it Erbe--you really that clueless or are you just trying to play?

Now this had to come from a man. A woman would not have been so crude.

Well-I do have one joke that is grosser, but this is a Christian blog, so I will refrain.

Why do you think I think women can't have talent? Why do you think I think women don't have talents men don't have?

I just think men and women think differently, behave differently, and have unique abilities specific to their gender.

Pastor Greg,

I appreciate your devotion to gender issues; however, I would just like to call to your attention how pervasive male dominance is in the Church. It goes far beyond the opportunity of women to be in leadership positions. As you subconsciously wrote, God uses males and females in HIS Kingdom equally.

Using normative male language for God functions in our actions and values, and it gives credibility to the structures that promote male superiority. Until we reenvision God as beyond gender, maleness will continue to be the dominant attribution of God and making females truly equal will not be possible.

Especially as a pastor, I encourage and challenge you to use some female imagery for God. Using gender neutral language is not sufficient. Doing so will not change the male image that dominates our perception of God. In order to envision a God that is beyond gender, we must use male and female imagery and language.

I am pretty clueless... at times. So I'm only perfect 98 percent of the time.

Okay, now you're being a troll. If you're trying to be funny, you're not succeeding. Please stop.

Thanks for speaking out on this issue. It is right that in all these debates we often fail to focus our attentions on how Jesus treated women. Just take a read through the gospel of Luke and we see a tender portrayal of Jesus with women. He treated them with respect. Co-heirs in Christ. Even when we go back to the beginning, to Genesis, we see how God's original intention has always been equality - Eve created as a "Partner" not subordinate. I thank God that despite modern church attitudes to women, Jesus went against the grain not just with women, but in so many ways - how radical.
http://otiumsanctum.com

While Paul might seem to be anti the role of women in church leadership in his Epistles, he actually ministered with women who were pastors, deacons (literally, they weren't called "deaconesses" in the Greek Text), evangelists and teachers. You can read about that in the Book of Acts.

I grew up attending Pentecostal churches, Assemblies of God and independent ones. In the AG, women are ordained and even serve as pastors. When I was in the 2nd grade, the pastor of the church my family attended was a woman. My father, because he was the Sunday School Superintendent was given equal status on the church's deacon board. Her husband was not exactly a "co-pastor," but, he was his wife's church administrator, so to speak, because he was also a business owner and he was on the board, too.

My father became a lay evangelist officially for the Okla. Dist. of the AG while we were members of that church. My mother not only taught a Sunday School class in that church; she was also a Bible teacher for adults, too.

So what are you implying? That women aren't as physically accomplished as men? Apparently you don't pay much attention to the track events at the olympics. Maybe a woman can't run 9.6, but she isn't that far off the slowest man in the field in any of the events. That women aren't as smart as men? Apparently you have never heard of Madam Curie, or Rosalind Franklin, nor have you noticed that many scientists and doctors are now women, reaching almost equal ratios. That women aren't as great musicians as men? Apparently you have never heard of Nadia Boulanger or Clara Schumann. Nor have you spent much time watching live orchestras, which are dominated by women or have you perused compositions that have been written in this century,

As a scientist, musician, and woman (wish I could say athlete, but I'm not gonna lie to you), other than the physical challenges you listed (and of course, actions completely unique to sexuality), there isn't anything a man can do that a woman can't do today. And there was nothing a woman couldn't have done 50 years ago if she had had the same freedoms that a man had then. And as far as the physical stuff--for a brief time in my life, when I lived in a mountainous are of the country, I climbed mountains. Most of the women who climbed either kept up with or smoked the guy's butts.

So--what are you saying? No maybe about it--no waiting required. It's already here, brother. You just need to pay more attention. Listen--can't you hear the roar?

So again--what are you saying? Women aren't as smart as men? Not as good at music? Not as good at physical activities?

What's taking them? Is it that really so difficult to figure out? What has life been like for women until the last 50 years or so (more like 30)? Why do you think women haven't excelled in those areas? It has nothing to do with ability or aptitude. If Mozart or Bach or Newton or whoever had to deal with the same obstacles a woman during those times had to deal with, they wouldn't have made their accomplishments, either.

"So far the evidence suggests--"

What evidence? Men have had 10,000 years to make their achievements. Women have had 30. Hardly a data set that is capable of drawing even a shred of conclusions from.

If you are arguing about whether women will never be able to sing bass, big deal. Men can't sing soprano without some special operation before they hit puberty. Men and women have different physical attributes, hardly a point to that is arguable.

However, your implication is that since men can sing bass and women can't, men are better musicians. You argue that since men have made most of the scientific discoveries, women must not be good at science, completely ignoring the history of women. If that isn't your intent, then answer my point blank question that I asked twice, and will now ask a third time.

"what are you saying? Women aren't as smart as men? Not as good at music? Not as good at physical activities?"

"Aristotle, Archemeides, Plato, Confucius, and Lao-Tzu are waiting."

Waiting for what? For women to have the same opportunities as men?

And? Men sing the low notes and women sing the high notes but they both can sing.

This is in contrast to keeping women out of entire fields because of differeing gifts - thus devaluing those particular gifts.

If yet there is to be a female Einstein, I say again - and? There is no doubt that there are some women smarter than some men. Not every man is smarter than every woman. So to systematically exclude someone soley based upon gender ignores the aactual genetic variations found in individual humans.

What if all churches acted anything like Jesus? What if all those who claim to be Christians had any serious interest in acting like Jesus? Too many churches and too many Christian leaders are much more concerned with where to draw lines. Drawing boundaries, labeling, determining who is and is not this or that is the opposite of what Jesus taught and demonstrated.

How sad it is that your article is actually "good." If the church and Christians had been following the narrow way of the path of love that Jesus taught for 2000 years your good article would be considered absurd. There is no concern for male or female, gay or straight, nationaly, ethnicity, etc. because the concern is for what Jesus taught, which is what matters is the heart. What matters is how the heart is, not the surface level labels that divide and label one as superior over another. The very act of labeling one as superior to another is an error because the heart does not see the Spirit within the other, which is invaluable. Jesus taught that "you may have heard... but I say..." He repeatedly explained that we repeatedly miss the point. The point is the heart--one's being. To what extent is your heart loving? That is the theme of the message of Jesus, the Christ.

Wouldn't you think in all of history, some remarkable women would have arisen to challenge men's "domination" in certain fields?

"I would suggest that this points out exactly what I'm talking about."

Erm--WHAT?!! You can't answer a direct question, so that means I don't think like you? What are you, a politician? Surely, if you saw Sarah Palin during the debates or any interview with her, you would see that she was just as capable of evading questions as the best of male politicians. Are you a musician? If you were, you would know there ARE women composers, some were even accomplished during the times when women were barely allowed to compose. Some are even known for spawning an entire school of composers, including the likes of Debussy. Here's just one list:

"http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/comp_women.html"

Why do you insist on ignoring the fact the women have not had nearly the opportunity to excel as men? I suggest you ignore it because you refuse to believe women are as capable as men are to excel in the areas you list off. As such, you completely ignore the evidence before you, and as such, you can't possibly be a scientist, either.

Just keep those eyes closed, then, if that's what you need to do.

As for basketball--no, they can't play like men--not yet. I wonder why they haven't reached those abilities yet? Could it be that women's basketball has only been taken seriously for, umm, only the last 10 years? I guess that's another point you will choose to blatantly ignore, though, eh?

I assume you do know that throughout virtually all of human history women were not educated, and that it was not their choice to not be educated. And I assume you understand that not being taught to read or write would hinder one's ability to be dominant in a certain field.

I'm a male in case one would think i'm just an offended female.

Vague comment to be followed by another vague comment. Traits are not exclusive.

I'm not suggesting that women are inferior to men (well, maybe just a little bit) just different with different talents and abilities. Equal abilities no, different abilities yes. And no, women will never be able to play basketball like men.

I play drums and percussion. Is that a male enough instrument for you? In fact, two of the only people in the world who make a good living playing solo percussion, and doing nothing else, I might add, are Evelyn Glennie and Keiko Abe.

As a musician, I know plenty of very good women sax and trumpet players, too, both classical and jazz musicians.

Well, you are absolutely right. I admit it crossed my mind he was just trying to get a rise out of me, and I guess he did. At least I hope he isn't that clueless.

Which is it Erbe--you really that clueless or are you just trying to play?

Now this had to come from a man. A woman would not have been so crude.

Well-I do have one joke that is grosser, but this is a Christian blog, so I will refrain.