In Support of Rick Warren

I agree. I am pretty sure that she is sincere, so .... it's just one more puzzle to add to the list.

Churchlady, thank you for your thoughtful and kindly-worded response. I also appreciate you, your efforts to seek truth, and your willingness to dialogue about a very challenging issue.

You are right in stating that I believe that human life begins at conception. This is the point where the contributions of each parent combine to form a new, unique human that is genetically distinct from its parents.

Thank you for your question about the purpose of sexuality. I do not believe that procreation is the sole purpose of sexuality. If it were, I do not believe that God would have given us Song of Songs; I also do not believe He would have commanded husbands to "bring happiness" to their wives (Deuteronomy 24:5) or commanded spouses not to deprive each other of sexual companionship except for a defined time of individual fasting and prayer. When God looked down upon Adam and Eve and said that what He saw was very good, there is no mention of offspring; to me, that means that God believed that the intimacy and companionship that He saw was a good thing in and of itself, whether or not a pregnancy resulted. I believe God intends sex to be a powerful experience of love and tenderness between a wife and a husband. However, when people have sex, the result that tends to occur is pregnancy. The Bible expresses is several places that this is one of the purposes (not the only purpose) of marriage. I believe that anyone who engages in sex (perhaps with the exception of women who have reached a certain age) must accept that pregnancy is the natural outgrowth of their intimacy. If I am not prepared to accept and welcome that result, I am seeking to enjoy God's blessing without taking on the responsibility that goes with it.

The question about abortion when a mother's life is in danger is a very difficult one. If another believer were to encounter this situation and ask for my thoughts (for whatever they may be worth), I would say that the right thing to do would be to continue the pregnancy and trust the Lord with the results. (As I mentioned above, I think it is wise for women who are not healthy enough to become pregnant to give serious thought to whether they should be sexually active.) I understand that my words may sound very glib, and that it is very easy for me to take this view as a man who will never live through this kind of a decision. I just don't think that it is justified to deliberately take one person's life just because we think that we may be saving someone else's life in so doing. I believe that this position is the only way to be consistent with the belief that a child in the womb is a human person who is beloved of God. This does not (in any way) mean that I see women as having less value than the unborn.

I am glad we agree that children are a blessing.

Peace be with you.

Sorry about that . I meant to try to explain that it was not the person hood
of the blind person that kept him from the license , it was the fact he
wanted the license but unable to use it for the way it was designed . With
gays , who do suffer from discrimination in many forms , are allowed a
marriage license . Same sex marriage denies children from the beginning of
their natural Mother and Father .
Will it cause the fall of society , no I don't believe so . Will it have a
good effect , I think some couples it may enhance their ability to live more
productive lives . But in the long run I am firmly convinced it will hurt us
more then help us . I was a single parent I believe that has hurt children
much more , and of course out of wedlock births . But the discrimination and
attacks on single parents is so different , In fact I recall people telling
me how I was such a good dad and committed to my children . But yet I made
some choices in my life that surrounded around good times , sleeping with
the Mother of my children before knowing her really , living in the moment
that resulted in me being the only person around to take care of my two kids
. This attack on gays or attack people who believe in traditional marriage
found more here makes this so polarizing and it looks like the best name
caller wins . But the rest of us all loose regardless how the country goes
.
.

Ah, I see.
All you had to say was that you meant an automobile license, not a marriage license.

I don't think their is a Bibical position to destroy what God has created .
Sometimes I hear I am against it but I can't force that belief on another .
Or its beyond my pay scale which was classic . I tend to believe denial is a big part of the pro choice side in regards to scripture and what the Holy Spirit tells us .

Now the points vampire is out in force. Points were taken away for complimenting and agreing with another poster.Mick if you hi this is "mocking" yo are once again mistaken. Newcreation knows my opinion and that's what matters. I will continue to award you points for your posts.

Thank you for the clarifications, newcreation1. I am reassured by your comments that you do not consider women somehow less than others. Although I profoundly disagree with your views on pregnancy prevention medications and on the option of abortion to save women's lives, I respect your right to hold your own opinion. I also respect your reasoned, consistent , and principled position. Thank you for the dialogue; it has been interesting and useful. Perhaps we can celebrate the bits of common ground we have found.

Peace and All Good.

My prayers have been answered. Right Reverend Gene Robinson, Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire will be participating in the inauguration. He will be giving one of the invocations.

It has been said here: "That those who were considered outcasts, or worthless, or undignified, are in fact essential, have abundant worth, and possess infinite dignity because they are your beloved sons and daughters."

People such as myself, Bishop Robinson, and other gay/lesbian/trans people have certainly been treated as outcasts, worthless, and undignified, even by other Christians -- and even here among these comments. Jesus has assured us many times that we are all His Children. He didn't say that "You can become my Children only if you become someone other than who you are." What He said is "you are my Children." Period -- just as we all are. Jesus' Two Great Commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

My prayers have been answered. Right Reverend Gene Robinson, Episcopal Bishop of New Hampshire will be participating in the inauguration. He will be giving one of the invocations.

It has been said here: "That those who were considered outcasts, or worthless, or undignified, are in fact essential, have abundant worth, and possess infinite dignity because they are your beloved sons and daughters."

People such as myself, Bishop Robinson, and other gay/lesbian/trans people have certainly been treated as outcasts, worthless, and undignified, even by other Christians -- and even here among these comments. Jesus has assured us many times that we are all His Children. He didn't say that "You can become my Children only if you become someone other than who you are." What He said is "you are my Children." Period -- just as we all are. Jesus' Two Great Commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Churchlady, thank you for your thoughtful and kindly-worded response. I also appreciate you, your efforts to seek truth, and your willingness to dialogue about a very challenging issue.

You are right in stating that I believe that human life begins at conception. This is the point where the contributions of each parent combine to form a new, unique human that is genetically distinct from its parents.

Thank you for your question about the purpose of sexuality. I do not believe that procreation is the sole purpose of sexuality. If it were, I do not believe that God would have given us Song of Songs; I also do not believe He would have commanded husbands to "bring happiness" to their wives (Deuteronomy 24:5) or commanded spouses not to deprive each other of sexual companionship except for a defined time of individual fasting and prayer. When God looked down upon Adam and Eve and said that what He saw was very good, there is no mention of offspring; to me, that means that God believed that the intimacy and companionship that He saw was a good thing in and of itself, whether or not a pregnancy resulted. I believe God intends sex to be a powerful experience of love and tenderness between a wife and a husband. However, when people have sex, the result that tends to occur is pregnancy. The Bible expresses is several places that this is one of the purposes (not the only purpose) of marriage. I believe that anyone who engages in sex (perhaps with the exception of women who have reached a certain age) must accept that pregnancy is the natural outgrowth of their intimacy. If I am not prepared to accept and welcome that result, I am seeking to enjoy God's blessing without taking on the responsibility that goes with it.

The question about abortion when a mother's life is in danger is a very difficult one. If another believer were to encounter this situation and ask for my thoughts (for whatever they may be worth), I would say that the right thing to do would be to continue the pregnancy and trust the Lord with the results. (As I mentioned above, I think it is wise for women who are not healthy enough to become pregnant to give serious thought to whether they should be sexually active.) I understand that my words may sound very glib, and that it is very easy for me to take this view as a man who will never live through this kind of a decision. I just don't think that it is justified to deliberately take one person's life just because we think that we may be saving someone else's life in so doing. I believe that this position is the only way to be consistent with the belief that a child in the womb is a human person who is beloved of God. This does not (in any way) mean that I see women as having less value than the unborn.

I am glad we agree that children are a blessing.

Peace be with you.

Chapter and verse please.

Sorry about that , getting a few posters who rather see the worse and am trying to be comprehensive .
Most likely making it worse .

Did I read this exact article a few weeks ago? On this blog, no less?

Ahhh. By checking my previous comments (a nice feature of this blog. Thanks!), I see that this is indeed a repost. Unfortunately, all the comments to the entry the first time around (besides my own) seem to be inaccessible now. That's not really fair....

In everything do to others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12). It does not say: "In everything except the homosexual issue

I think I followed what she was saying . It was more of a liberaterian view . Transfer gay marriage to an issue saying driving liscense . She was taking the view that anyone can have a drivers liscense , so anyone can have a marriage liscense . I believe she personally believes Bibically it was wrong , but it was not for her to have a say in regarding society to stop it .

The Biblical basis is that women are as important as anybody else, including men and children. Not more so, but just as.

Could anyone clarify how Proposition 8 takes away the rights of gays and lesbians in California? I am not asking the question glibly. Does it mean that a gay person does not have any rights at all, or does it mean that a homosexual marriage is not on the same par as a heterosexual marriage? Do the gay partners lose any economic or judicial rights under the law?

I am just wondering if my wife and I had lived together before we got married would we have been accorded "domestic partner" rights? In addition to saving $240 a month on rent, perhaps we could have considered ourselves "married" and got benefits from the state -- both of us were working for the University system.

All this to ask -- where does the denial of rights take place?

"For that reason, it should be discouraged, just as smoking is discouraged."

If only we could find a way to impose a use tax and prohibit male homosexual sex within 50 feet of a public building...

Those on the extreme ends of both left and right thrive on anything that will add fuel to the polarization between "us" and "them." After all, the world of politics is so much easier to explain in hard and fast categories of black and white, good and evil.

Pro-life pastors aren't supposed to publicly pray for pro-choice politicians, who in turn are not supposed to be on speaking terms with anyone who is "intolerant" of gays. Liberals must have assumed Obama was only talking to conservatives when he gave all of those lofty campaign speeches about moving beyond our partisan differences. For conservatives, it was a lot easier to paint Obama as the enemy when his Reverend of choice was named Wright and not Warren.

Theologically speaking, I consider myself an evangelical Christian, but I'm not a huge fan of Rick Warren per se. I have qualms with his "purpose-driven" sloganization of the Christian faith and market-based approach that sees church growth in terms of customer satisfaction and and pastors as CEOs. And while I'm not sure if agree with his controversial comments on the subject of homosexuality (it's hard to say anything NOT controversial on the topic these days), it really doesn't bother me that he was Obama's choice for the task.

Just as our new president might turn out to be more moderate than some evangelicals fear, perhaps Rev. Warren is not as right-wing as Arianna Huffington's band of liberal bloggers would like to think. Contrary to the prevailing stereotypes held by those on the outside looking in, we evangelicals are a politically diverse bunch that include not just household names like Billy Graham and Sarah Palin, but also respected scholars like Mark Noll and Richard Mouw, as well as a new generation of writers like Donald Miller and Shane Claiborne. We don't all vote the same way or think exactly alike.

For a group that has often been associated with the likes of Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, Tim LaHaye and Ted Haggard, you could do a lot worse in choosing a spokesperson than Rick Warren, who again, contrary to popular perception, is actually one of the least politically partisan of those who fit the category of "evangelical celebrity." Despite his strong support of Prop 8, Warren is not a card-carrying member of the religious right. During the campaign season, he hosted both Obama and John McCain at his church, but he never endorsed either one or gave any indication of who he voted for. That fact that people from both parties have suspected Warren of voting the "other" side is evidence of his non-partisanship.

Much to the frustration of culture warriors on both ends of the spectrum, neither Obama nor Warren seems interested in continuing the practice of using abortion or gay marriage as litmus test issues. If either of them did, there's no way we'd ever see them sharing a stage, much less the U.S. Capitol's steps on January 20th. Beyond the hot buttons, there is a broader set of issues including global poverty, climate change, AIDS and genocide on which they agree. While I would not likely choose Warren as my pastor or favorite author by any means, he's a more than adequate choice to pray at the inauguration. How many mega-church pastors do you know who reverse tithe, giving away 90% while keeping 10%?

This is implicit in many places in the Bible, but here are a few that come to mind: All of Genesis 1, and particularly Gen. 1.26-27, where God creates both man and woman and makes them both in his image. All of Galatians, and particularly Gal. 3.28 where Paul describes us as all as one in Christ. All of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. A few special places are Luke 8. 1-3, describing women as disciples using their resources to support Jesus' work. Luke 8. 42b-55, two related stories of Jesus including women in his healing. John 8. 1-11 where Jesus advocates for a woman caught in adultery. (The relevant part for this discussion is the fact that they did not bring the man for judgment - only the woman. How could she have been caught in adultery alone?) Mark 16, Matthew 28, Luke 24, and John 20 where the story is clear that women were the first to bear witness to the resurrection. That certainly ought to count for something.

There are many places where it's clear to me that God considers women as important as anybody else. Again, I'm not claiming that we're more important, but rather that we are just as important as anyone else.

ando in the case of California the court had Given gays the right to marry . I think the anger from the gay community especially , is because they already had that right , then it was taken away . Like havibg a raise in pay , then loosing it 6 months later . You counted on it and it was taken away .

Interestingly enough the court case that took place in the 1870 against the government concerning polgamy , the Federal appointed Judge actually cited Jeffersons separation of church and state letter to the Baptists in his ruling . In that case the arguement was the state forcing itself and depriving the polygamist their Constitutional First Amendment rights because their religion advocated multi partner marriage . What I do find interesting in this debate at times , is people who think nothing of saying they are agisnt multi partner marriage , yet will state they will support gay marriage because they are against discrimination . Of course they discriminate , saying you are against discrimintion while ONLY ADVOCATING FOR GAYS to be allowed to be married its an arguement that has no foundation in fact .

No argument there. But how does that justify legalized abortion?

oh oh , Vampire alert . Someone took a point off ANDO .

I say this because ando stated it sounded like Sister was worshipping Obama , and he hoped that was not the case . looking at the post from Sister I see where that could be taken that way , I did not consider that , but she spoke of Warren being on the same platform with Obama would bring him to a level not worthy .

Most of the best Pastors I have met actually have a sense of humility and Grace when preaching the word anyway , so being elevated to Obama by swearing him in actually is apuffed reasoning anyway .

Hope this was not you Jeff . I say this because read his comments , Sister made it clear she had a low opinion of a Pastor that most Americans , especially evangelicals on the left and right like the fact he leave politics out of his messages .

Give ando a little slack . if you were not the vampire , excuse me .