New Rules for Middle East Engagement

As I said in response to a previous post, I don't think it's possible to have dialogue (or any type of a two-state solution) when the government of Gaza is run by a terrorist organization that advocates the destruction of Israel. I am sure many of the Palestinians do not like Hamas, either; I suspect that most are too afraid to do anything about it. As long as they are in the picture, I don't think that the proposed "new rules of engagement" will work. I would love to see those rules work out, but both sides would have to operate in good faith.

I could not agree more with Mr. Patel. The tragedy is that both sides are simultaneously right in their concerns, yet are unwilling to acknowledge the validity of the other's concerns. As Representative Ellison points out, acknowledging the pain of the other, does not negate the fact of one's own pain. Old thinking will not work. What might be needed is the intervention of third parties to demilitarize the area to meet the security concerns of Israel (eliminating the need for IDF intervention), along with humanitarian, technical and fiscal assistance the Palestinians need to establish a viable independent state. Surely the cost of such an intervention can be borne by the West and the Arab countries for the benefit of peace and stability in the area. The biggest stumbling block might be East Jerusalem. For that, the solution might be "E. Jerusalem to the Palestinians or ALL of Jerusalem " to be internationalized."

Cousins should be able to make peace among themselves. indeed, they must.

There is no right side in the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. What gives any government legitimacy to exist? There is no standard for answering this question in scripture (if you find one, please email it to me at ndsnow@gmail - those who quote Rom 13 need not apply) because there is no support for the legitimacy of human governments in Scripture.
The Israeli government is secular - pagan even. It generates arbitrary laws and forces its people into military action. Scripture makes promises to the Jewish people, but not to the nation - state of Israel.
Palestine has no more right to exist, and Hamas has no more right to a monopoly on force in the Gaza strip, than anyone else does.
What this crisis again illustrates is that the world strives for control of political power. Power-over as Greg Boyd calls it. In every fight among wolves, sheep ought to stay out. Let these pagans blow each other to bits, they are filled with the demonic lust of power.
If there is a role for Christians in this tragedy it is to offer up our homes to the innocents. They can move in with me - Jew, Arab, Persian, Kurd. All of them.
The most important work Christians can be involved politically in this regard is relaxation of immigration restrictions, first for refugees, slaves, and other oppressed peoples, and then for everyone else.
Nathanael Snow

Isn't it amazing how tiny little Israel is even still around? With all the hatred and desire to destroy this one nation for thousands of years. Even after being scattered, the Lord returned his people back to their land. End times prophecy is unfolding in front of our eyes. To think that Ezekial prophesized about a coaltion of Iran/Russia attacking Israel just prior to a 7 year peace treaty. And during a time of war, rumors of war, massive information, massive travel, and a coming global economy and global government.

Come quickly Lord Jesus.

Israel, as a creation of European/Russian Zionists, has taken the land from the indigenous Palestinians and when it hasn't forcibly evicted them it has made them second class citizens in a Jewish state.

It is a shame that George Marshall's advice wasn't taken by Harry Truman but Mr. Marshall's prophecy has come true.

Israel is a rogue state who's politicians and their self serving ideology has perverted both Judaism and Christianity to the delight of those Muslims bent on the same perversion of Islam.

Is there some reason other than a "heads-up" from our buddy/God to we 21st century Americans that Ezekiel may have written this. The future belongs to God and those who dabble in soothsaying/witchcraft are under his curse. Why, it may even be an abomination on the level of homosexual sin.

Do you know the origin of the palistinians? A Roman General named Hadrian hated Israel so much that after thier distruction and dispersion renamed that reigon palistine. there is no right of the palistinians to that land that was givin by God to the Jewish people, so there was no forcable evistion, it was a prophecy that came to pass. Please dont shoot from the hip with a reply, do your homework first.

With all due respect, you should take your own advice and look at the bigger picture. Time and time again God drove ancient Israel from the land because of its disobedience, with only a remnant returning each time, and I don't think He would reward the same (remember that the Jewish people are still being disobedient in rejecting the Messiah). Besides, His purpose always was to build a nation through which He would bless the entire world. Besides, there's nowhere in the New Testament that even says that's a possibility; when one of Jesus' disciples asks him, "Are you going to restore Israel?", He responds, "Irrelevant -- you have a job to do."

Is the nation-state of Israel God's established representation of the Jewish people to the world? If so, where did God say that? When did it happen? I believe there remains a promise for the Jewish people. I don't think God has promised anything to the secular institution labeled "Israel."
There is no right of any group of people to any piece of land anywhere. What gives one a justifiable right to a piece of land is when they BUY it.
There were Jews and Arabs and others sharing the land of Palestine prior to 1948. Some of that land had been taken by force from others. Some of it had been purchased. Why couldn't the Jews moving into Palestine continue to buy up land in a just manner rather than taking it by force? Of course, many were doing this, but once a government was formed it all of a sudden became justifiable to take the land by force.
Notice people: once a government was formed!
What is a government? It is a group of people who think they have the right to tell other people what to do at the point of a gun. Now, go pay your taxes.
Nathanael Snow

Rev. 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near..

Pretty severe there Jeff, comparing Biblical prophecy to witchcraft!

Hannity2,
Your entire perspective of prophecy is skewed by a simple flaw: you believe God extends legitimacy to governments. It is very hard to prove that the particular alliance you speak of between Iran and Russia is the same described in Ezekiel. I know many Bible teachers try to do this, but 99% of these make the mistake of equating the nation-state of Israel with the Biblical "Jewish People." They are not one and the same.
Step back. If this particular claim is not true, then very little of what these expositors of prophecy claim remains true.
The argument hangs by a very thin thread, one which I contend is diametrically opposed to the Christian ethic.
Nathanael Snow

The problem is, the 2-state solution is no longer viable. After the wall; the increasing pace of settlements, "legal" and illegal; the siege and now assault of Gaza, neither Gaza nor the West Bank nor Palestine as whole are any longer economically viable. We need one country, an Israel of Palestine, which is a true democracy, with equal rights for all citizens, Arab and Jewish. Thus finding those who agree with long-term solutions, if those solutions involve two states, will not advance the cause of peace any longer. We need a new conversation.

I didn't compare Biblical prophecy to witchcraft. I compared your method of interpretation of Biblical prophecy (using Scripture to forecast the future) to witchcraft. What's the difference between you and Nostradomus?

You'll have to tell them we're not in collusion, NN. That was scary! At least you spelled Nostradamus right :-)

I didn't understand what you meant until I realized that this comment was posted after your 'Nostradomus' comment. I don't think our similar observation is any more coincidental that it is obvious.

Incidentally, I compose in Word and then cut & paste

Israel will be secular until the Lord returns, then they will turn to Him, so for now He leaves us with this, "I will bless those who bless her and curse those who curse her" and another that is misinturprited when he said "whatsoever you do to the least of these my brethren that you do unto me" he was referning to the Jews

God gave the land to Israel, its theirs, Their is much scripture to back that up

Oh Hi Big Blue, its you,
I never said to look at a bigger picture, I said to do the research before giving a response. and insult was not intended nor should it be used

Funny thing is that one of the reasons God did that was because of unbelief in His Word, God is coming back for His people, which by the way is the Jews,

God has placed blinders on the Jews as a nation until the times of the end, as individuals however they can be reached

Blue i dunno man, you made a statement in a prior post that was confusing, you stated the book of revalation was written to comfort persicuted Christians, and we have to know the authors intent?
Im not quite sure what you ment by that,
see 2 tim 3: 16-17

I tend to disagree with your interpritation of scripture relating to rapture and the last days

Dave

Apparently you don't subscribe to the "new rules".

Who is "they"? Who is Israel? The Bible does not discuss what might belong to a pagan nation state with the name "Israel." It certainly refers to the Jews. But it also insists that as Christians we should oppose violence.
If afraid your story is too hard for me to untangle. I wrestled with it for years, but have come to believe that Israel is just another government out for control, and should not evoke any special sympathy from Christians.
Pre-tribbers are just tools in the hands of these demagogues.

You disagree with the interpretation, but do you see that your interpretation requires you to abandon the Christian ethic? Do you see that you are justifying violence by some against others? Do you see the inconsistency?
This Scofieldian - American idea of rapture has compromised the church like nothing since the progressive movement.

That's the point -- I did do the research. BTW, I wasn't the one who actually said that Revelation was written to comfort persecuted Christians, although that was indeed the case. That said, you won't find anywhere in the New Testament saying that the Jewish people would get their land back, which is why Jesus said what He did -- most of Revelation had to do with things that were in the near future (the reference to the "Great Tribulation" is generally agreed to be the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.).

And here's another problem with these "promises" to the Jewish people: About a third of the Palestinian population is Christian (albeit nominally). If they were real believers they would be considered part of God's household, but why don't we Christians stick up for them? We do so everywhere else.

The difference between Biblical Prophecy and Nostradomus is that Nostradomus has been wrong. It has nothing to do with me. You claim that we shouldn't use prophecy to examine the future. That is the entire point of prophecy. Otherwise it is history. And again as the scripture says

Rev. 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near..

There are very few Biblical Scholars who would hold to your position. In fact many of the few who do also deny the Virgin Birth, bodily resurrection of Jesus, and infallibility of scripture.

Are you aware that there are different *interpretations* of The Revelation. For starters, the first verse identifies that the book is primarily a revelation of Jesus Christ and proceeds to say it speaks of "things which must shortly come to pass". An Old Testament survey of prophesy will point you in the true direction of the purpose of prophesy. The entire point of prophecy is to call the people to return to worship of God. The futuristic element is a confirming sign to validate the message of the prophet. In this light, the early Church father's would have recognized the prophetic nature of The Revelation due to the truth of the events having already transpired thus validating John's encouraging message. Another concept that helped me with the book was the "Is, was and is to come" theme. God is able to be in more than one time/space at once. What is yet to happen for us, has already happened, is happening and will happen from God's view.
As was stated before, applying modernistic/scientific interpretive methods to Scripture ignores the principle of "the things that are secret things belong to God"