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Crossing the Line Between Legitimate Criticism and Anti-Semitism

by Duane Shank 01-08-2009 | 4:48pm
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It is appropriate and necessary to criticize Israel's excessive military attacks in Gaza. We have and will continue to do that, much as we criticize our own government for its excesses in Iraq and Afghanistan. Military means are not the solution to political problems.

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It is not appropriate, and is in fact unacceptable and deplorable, to condemn Israel 's existence or that of the Jewish people. But, as Boston Globe columnist Jeff Jacoby writes, those manifestations of anti-Semitism are seen in the chants and placards at some demonstrations:

Demonstrators chanted "Nuke, nuke Israel!" and carried placards accusing Israel of "ethnic cleansing" and bearing such messages as: "Did Israel take notes during the Holocaust? Happy Hanukkah." To the dozen or so supporters of Israel gathered across the street, one demonstrator shouted: "Murderers! Go back to the ovens! You need a big oven."

He went on to say that

The Arab-Israeli conflict induces strong passions, and the line that separates legitimate disapproval of Israel from anti-Semitism may not always be obvious. But it's safe to assume the line has been crossed when you hear someone urging Jews "back to the ovens."

Indeed. Not only has "the line been crossed," but such behavior is outrageous. In a society that correctly condemns racism, sexism, homophobia, and other forms of oppression, anti-Semitism must also be condemned wherever and whenever it arises.

Jacoby concluded by noting a column written some years ago by Rep. John Lewis:

Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, "I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews -- because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all."

During an appearance at Harvard University shortly before his death, a student stood up and asked King to address himself to the issue of Zionism. The question was clearly hostile. King responded, "When people criticize Zionists they mean Jews, you are talking anti-Semitism."

Dr. King was right then, and the sentiment he expressed is right today.

Duane Shank is senior policy advisor for Sojourners.

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by: pedrud

01-08-2009 @ 8:53pm

I guess that I fail to see how accusing the State of Israel of ethnic cleansing is anti-Semitic. Ethnic cleansing (apartheid, whatever you wish to call it) as Websters defines it is "the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity". These (expulsion, imprisonment, & killing) are the exact actions that the State of Israel and the IDF have taken against Palestinians. This is not anti-Semitic. This is speaking truth and many who support these actions do not want to hear it. Many Christians in America blindly support the State of Israel, yet do not know what actually occurs - nor do they want to. If they did, their consciences would be burdened with such a weight over the inhumane practices used against the Palestinians that they could no longer blindly support Israel.

Violence begets violence.

According to the author's logic, condemning Israel for ethnic cleansing is anti-Semitic. Then the next logical step would be that condemning Hamas for their actions would be anti-Palestinain/Arab. However, many freely condemn Hamas for their actions, yet they are a governing body as much as the State of Israel is a governing body. So this argument is not logical.

If the condemnation of Israel for their political/military actions is anti-Semitic. Then condemnation of Hamas for their political/military actions is equally anti-Palestinian/Arab. However, if Hamas can be criticized and condemned for their political/military actions and it is not seen as anti-Palestinian/Arab, then Israel can equally be criticized and condemned for their political/military actions without it being anti-Semitic.

Peace, I only hope and pray for peace for us all.

by: nuclearferret

01-08-2009 @ 9:12pm

I couldn't disagree more. It is any individual nation-state's decision to determine if it will intermingle religion and state; the US model of secular, religion-less government has its place. But if a nation decides to be a Christian, Muslim or Jewish (or any other) religion-based state, that is their business.

But you are right about one thing: A "Israel/Palestine" shouldn't be a Jewish state, because it shouldn't exist at all, and shame on the world if that is the "solution."

by: carlcopas

01-08-2009 @ 9:13pm

Tony, this is a powerful article. Thanks for the link.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:29pm

I agree with Carlcopas. Thank you.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:30pm

The points vampire took a point away from Tony_D. Shame. I restored it.

by: erbe

01-08-2009 @ 9:46pm

I'm sure Jesus was thrilled to see the Zionists appropriate Palestinian land with trickery and subterfuge and when that didn't work with the Irgun and Stern Gang. And I'm sure he was thrilled at how the Zionists went about establishing their state with land appropriated from the Palestinians. And what must really please Jesus now is how the Zionists show their love and compassion to their "enemies". Did Jesus say we were to love our enemies? Turn the other cheek? Oh, I forget the Zionists live by another moral code, promulgated by their "spiritual" ancestor Jacob. And we shouldn't forget the other tenet that is a cornerstone of their moral philosophy - eyes for an eye, teeth for a tooth.

And of course, the United States government, as the worlds leading "Christian" moral authority, supports Israel's Zionists completely.

by: vetcurt

01-09-2009 @ 7:45am

Many good points made. The only comment I would call anti-semite is the one mentioning the ovens. I call what Israel has been doing over the years slow motion ethnic cleansing. The situation in Gaza reminds me of the Jew's resistance in Warsaw.
There is quite a peace movement in Israel but we hear little of it in this country. Remember, they once were leading the country and then Rabin was assasinated.
If we have separation of church and state as a basic principle, how can we give such blank check support ot all of Israel's actions. They are a theocracy similar to Iran. Many more middle east states are on the verge of becoming religous-based states. Their actions are proof of the value of separation of church and state.
As for what Israel takes out of the old testament, it is often said that the Bible can be used to prove anything. Israel picks and chooses what it wants to justify it's actions just like some of the Muslim Mullahs misuse the Koran. For instance, if one focuses on Exodus 20 you have the 10 Commandments. But if you focus on the very next chapter you get instructions on treating slaves, including selling your daughter into slavery, and some instructions on who should be put to death. So what does "Thou shalt not kill" mean?
There are 750,000 people in Gaza. After days of bombing the infrastructure, Israel tries to strike a humanitarian pose by saying "OK, you have 3 hours to get in there, distribute water and food and get out". How rediculous is that?
Another "good one" is the justification of killing civilians by saying "We warned them to get out". Where are they expected to go? Experience says that if they somehow went to another country they would not be allowed back, like those stuck in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.
The Palestinians should offer to stop shooting into Israel if Israel stops all construction in settlements and Palestinian neighborhoods in Israel.
All the cease-fire proposals specify only what the Palestinians must not do in the future. Lets try to change the behavior of both sides.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 12:03pm

Read where the God of the Old Testament told the Israelites to go in and kill every man, woman, and child in the land He was giving them.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:03pm

In many circles, "an eye for an eye" would be seen as a great leap forward.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:11pm

Makes sense to me.

by: truthonfire

01-09-2009 @ 3:49pm

Israel is a nation founded on terror and blatant racism. It came into existence principally at the hands of secular Jewish fanatics who had no compunction about brutally murdering the local non-Jewish population. I don't throw around words loosely--the acts of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang ,which were the militarized arm of the Zionist movement ,were unconscionably atrocious and inhumane The state of Israel has systematically continued their reign of terror, murder and deception.

Israel is anything but a democracy. It features a race-based, multitiered society with apartheid conditions and official preference for Judaic orthodoxy. And as this latest incursion into Gaza has shown, freedom of press is a myth.

Israel perpetuates an "abused victim" mantra as its national ethos in order to congeal its Jewish citizenry into a paranoid military state and to silence any and all criticism.

Israel's official stance is that it has a right to defend itself. My question is this: "does a robber have a 'right' to self-defense, even as it ransacks another's property and threatens their lives?" American taxpayers alone spend 3 billion dollars a year arming Israel to the teeth, and yet Israel has the audacity to make an issue about Palestinian resistance and their comparatively miniscule efforts at arming themselves.

Then there is the insidious movement to stealthily infuse Christianity with Zionist propaganda. That propaganda is that Jews as a people and Israel as a state are sacrosanct--end of story. It is this religious dogma which underlies the indiscriminate financial-political support by the Christian Zionists and which helps ensure Israel's continued impunity. That is not to mention the American Israeli Political Action Committee and its immeasurable political clout.

If Christians are to assess Israel's existence in light of their sacred text, they must not forget the very words of their lord and savior the Christ himself: "If you (Jerusalem) had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes..."(Luke 19:43) Immediately after saying this Jesus entered the heart of Israel's existence (the temple) and unleashed his fury over their hypocrisy. Why are Christians still cowering to the Zionist hoax of untouchability? There is nothing uniquely sacred about a Jew or Israel--nothing at all. All life is sacred.

by: Palosaari

01-08-2009 @ 10:37pm

I agree with your article. A very timely and important point.

But- not all of the placard examples you gave would be anti-Semitism. Most would be, but I'd pull out two examples as exceptions. To state that what Israel is doing is ethnic cleansing is a statement of fact (true or not), one that President Carter made, and many would agree with.

And while I disagree with the angry and hate-filled tone, there is a certain truth that many scholars like Walter Wink have noted, in the principle of violent mimicry- we become that which we hate. Many who are pro-Jewish or Jewish themselves have noted with sadness the similarities of tactics *to a certain degree* between the aggressors of WWII and the practices of the IDF. Even in '48, some of the heroes who helped the Jews escape the Nazis, and were present during al Naka, were noticing with horror the similarities. It should be noted, this is nothing like genocide, but there is a certain degree of ethnic cleansing, and eerie similarities between what the Jews faced in '45 and the Palestinians have faced thereafter.

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 4:44pm

Some of the anger is a result of the one sided media presentation which seems to accept the premise that clear moral criticism of israel's actions in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank would be anti-semitic. Israeli dissidents and Jewish peace activists like Michael Lerner often have the strongest words of criticism in any formal publications and are generally unheard in the MSM. The same occurs in politics. Te Senate voted a statement of support for Israel but act as though the Gazans have no just grievance. This does not reflect the changing attitudes of American s who have grown suspicious of the media messages., and see the injustice before their eyes.Most of the world thinks a 2 sate solution is the most viable option but Kadima is unwilling to give up the settlements. The ultimate anti-semitism is the US collusion in the destruction of a viable Palestinian homeland. These are all Semitic peoples with Semitic languages and the Palestinians have been in the region as long as Judaism existed. The US has simply not stood up for UN resolution 242 or the just treatment of Israeli occupied Palestine. This has gone on for too long.

I do not accept tat Zionism is a code word for Judaism, but this debate does require that we not succumb to hatred, ill will or stereotypes of any kind.

by: SisterMarie

01-09-2009 @ 5:17pm

martingugino,

Although you can't totally delete a comment that you have made, if you write something that you'd like to take back or rephrase, you can click on the reblog link and that will take you back to your post and then you can rewrite it or backspace over it.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:45pm

It's easy for "us" to say we shouldn't succumb to hatred when it wasn't our land that has been taken, our homes destroyed, our way of life disrupted, our children killed.

Think how you would feel if the illegal immigrants in your state, with the help of
the governments of Mexico and say China, appropriated your land, terrorized your family, overthrew the government and established their own "state" in it's place and where you were became a second class citizen subject to discrimination in a land your ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years.

by: vetcurt

01-12-2009 @ 9:14pm

Oops, I just never heard about the vast forest or swamp lands of Gaza. I keep hearing and reading that it is one of the most densely populated areas on earth. I remember that there were olive orchards that families had earned a living from for generations that the Israelis bulldozed. Some of that happened after their brave soldiers shot some olive pickers and Israel was stung by the criticism. So they solved that problem.... I didn't realize that the dust I see blowing around over there came from swamps.
To paraphrase you: Killing the Palestinians is just a means to an end. Getting them to flee to refugee camps in Egypt or Lebanon or Syria of Jordan would work just as well.
Sad how similar both sides are. Both want the land but not the people on the land. Considering the Holocaust, it would have been more just to carve a Jewish state out of parts of Germany and Austria. Of course, the French, Italians, Poles Czechs and most other Europeans had their share of guilt also, but I don't recall that at that time the Arabs were slaughtering the Jews.
Maybe if the Jews would go back to the 1967 borders of Israel peace would have a chance. But who wants peace unless they can have their way first?

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:55pm

Yitzhak Rabin

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-09-2009 @ 5:56pm

Yes, it's easy. And it's also right. And it's in the Palestinians best interest not to hate, even if you accept all their claims at face value.

To borrow a line from Don Corleone: "Don't hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."

LV

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 7:16pm

All of what you say is true. It is very hard to feel anything but outrage and hatred when subjected to violence. I am amazed by the many Palestinians and Israelis also who continue to put away vengeance and hate and call for peaceful resolution. We must also understand the the history of Jews in Europe and their sense that only a homeland could protect them from continuing to be a people continually scape-goated by the nations.

My ancestors fled the Irish Potato Famine. Somewhere in that reality was born a deep mistrust for all the claims of empire. I was born in North America, in a country whose territory was mostly stolen from tribal peoples. I have refused to serve in the US army but a portion of my taxes go to war. My claims to moral or ethnic purity are limited. But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone. We cannot all return to our ancestral lands, but the West Bank is still in dispute and the Palestinians have the most just and powerful claim to this land.

Violence is not working as a tactic for the Palestinians. They have put themselves in a terrible spot by resuming the rockets. They cannot stop without rewarding the Israeli violence and they cannot continue without incurring hundreds of times the losses they inflict. Hamas has not provided any better leadership for the the real needs of the Palestinian than Kadima or Likud for the Israelis.

My ancestors fled the Potato Famine in Ireland, I was born and grew up in a country that stole most of its land from Native North Americans , But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 7:36pm

Violence does work and it might yet work for the Palestinians. We live in a corrupt world where lying, deceit, violence, does achieve certain ends.

Consider Jacob in the Old Testament, or consider how the Israelites were to treat the Amelkites. Isn't this the world people live in.

by: JoannaCW

01-09-2009 @ 12:49am

Please. I am neither Jewish nor well-versed in Judaism, but certainly honesty, justice for the oppressed and mercy are all well grounded in the Hebrew Scripture. Read the prescriptions for the year of jubilee. Read the prophets. Read the provisions for sanctuary cities. Blaming Israel's present conduct on the Old Testament is as unfair as blaming our own country;'s wars on Christianity.

by: cantabrigian

01-09-2009 @ 9:16pm

Amen to that!

by: Joelschwartzman

01-17-2009 @ 12:42am

I didn't respond to the question to enter a debate. You wouldn't agree with my point of view, nor I with yours. Dialogue is not possible when world views are as different as yours and mine. But, I offer thisa prayer on your behalf: God save you from ever facing an enemy like Hamas.
Joel> Subject: [godspolitics] Re: Crossing the Line Between Legitimate Criticism and Anti-Semitism> From: > To: joelschwartzman@hotmail.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:54:04 +0000> > PASTOR JEFF wrote, in response to Joelschwartzman:> > Thank you Kevin and Joel. I have no doubt that Israel has the technological capacity to identify their enemies. Unfortunately you both subscribe to the myth of "clean" technology. My doubts are with the fallibility of the users of the technology and it's transition from data to reality.> > Link: http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/2009/01/0...> > --> You may reply to this email to post your response. To turn off notifications, go to your Disqus settings at: http://disqus.com/settings/notifications/
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live

by: rgf

01-09-2009 @ 3:36am

ARABS ARE SEMITES -- Many Israelis are NOT -- who is concerned about the anti-
Semitism lobbed at Arabs -- especially by Israelis and their government?

by: Hanita

01-09-2009 @ 3:43am

THIS CONFLICT IS NOT ABOUT ISRAEL AND THE ARABS......IT IS ABOUT ISLAM HAVING ALL THE LAND, ANYWHERE A MOSLEM CAN AND WILL LIVE. THERE WILL BE NO ROOM FOR CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM OR HINDUISM OR BUDDISM. Please understand the situation and why the bombs are falling. Israel fights for the whole world.

by: Eric77

01-10-2009 @ 2:15am

Shouldn't the Palestinians offer to stop shooting regardless of what Israel does to them? Isn't this the standard that Jesus set for us? We're not supposes to respond to violence with more violence.

by: vetcurt

01-09-2009 @ 7:45am

Many good points made. The only comment I would call anti-semite is the one mentioning the ovens. I call what Israel has been doing over the years slow motion ethnic cleansing. The situation in Gaza reminds me of the Jew's resistance in Warsaw.
There is quite a peace movement in Israel but we hear little of it in this country. Remember, they once were leading the country and then Rabin was assasinated.
If we have separation of church and state as a basic principle, how can we give such blank check support ot all of Israel's actions. They are a theocracy similar to Iran. Many more middle east states are on the verge of becoming religous-based states. Their actions are proof of the value of separation of church and state.
As for what Israel takes out of the old testament, it is often said that the Bible can be used to prove anything. Israel picks and chooses what it wants to justify it's actions just like some of the Muslim Mullahs misuse the Koran. For instance, if one focuses on Exodus 20 you have the 10 Commandments. But if you focus on the very next chapter you get instructions on treating slaves, including selling your daughter into slavery, and some instructions on who should be put to death. So what does "Thou shalt not kill" mean?
There are 750,000 people in Gaza. After days of bombing the infrastructure, Israel tries to strike a humanitarian pose by saying "OK, you have 3 hours to get in there, distribute water and food and get out". How rediculous is that?
Another "good one" is the justification of killing civilians by saying "We warned them to get out". Where are they expected to go? Experience says that if they somehow went to another country they would not be allowed back, like those stuck in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.
The Palestinians should offer to stop shooting into Israel if Israel stops all construction in settlements and Palestinian neighborhoods in Israel.
All the cease-fire proposals specify only what the Palestinians must not do in the future. Lets try to change the behavior of both sides.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 12:03pm

Read where the God of the Old Testament told the Israelites to go in and kill every man, woman, and child in the land He was giving them.

by: vetcurt

01-10-2009 @ 3:32am

Perhaps so in a better world. Self defense is a tough call. Considering what they have gone through the last 40 years, if I put myself in their shoes I can't say I wouldn't be supporting Hamas. They could all line up and march like Ghandi had the Indians do, but I don't think Israel has the aversion to shooting unarmed resistors like the English did. I think Israel would have their army keep shooting in "self defense".
Not all situations are the same. If Ghandi or Martin Luther King or even Jesus had been in the KGB's Russia or Cambodia or China or Uganda ar any number of other places, they would have been dead before many even heard of them.
The alternative is that the Palestinians don't resist at all. In that case Israel would merrily continue settlements, land grabs, and increasing oppression to get the Palestinians to leave so they can have the land "God gave them". If that is their future, they may as well go out into the desert someplace and hope world aid agencies take pitty on them and feed them.

by: truthonfire

01-09-2009 @ 3:49pm

Israel is a nation founded on terror and blatant racism. It came into existence principally at the hands of secular Jewish fanatics who had no compunction about brutally murdering the local non-Jewish population. I don't throw around words loosely--the acts of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang ,which were the militarized arm of the Zionist movement ,were unconscionably atrocious and inhumane The state of Israel has systematically continued their reign of terror, murder and deception.

Israel is anything but a democracy. It features a race-based, multitiered society with apartheid conditions and official preference for Judaic orthodoxy. And as this latest incursion into Gaza has shown, freedom of press is a myth.

Israel perpetuates an "abused victim" mantra as its national ethos in order to congeal its Jewish citizenry into a paranoid military state and to silence any and all criticism.

Israel's official stance is that it has a right to defend itself. My question is this: "does a robber have a 'right' to self-defense, even as it ransacks another's property and threatens their lives?" American taxpayers alone spend 3 billion dollars a year arming Israel to the teeth, and yet Israel has the audacity to make an issue about Palestinian resistance and their comparatively miniscule efforts at arming themselves.

Then there is the insidious movement to stealthily infuse Christianity with Zionist propaganda. That propaganda is that Jews as a people and Israel as a state are sacrosanct--end of story. It is this religious dogma which underlies the indiscriminate financial-political support by the Christian Zionists and which helps ensure Israel's continued impunity. That is not to mention the American Israeli Political Action Committee and its immeasurable political clout.

If Christians are to assess Israel's existence in light of their sacred text, they must not forget the very words of their lord and savior the Christ himself: "If you (Jerusalem) had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes..."(Luke 19:43) Immediately after saying this Jesus entered the heart of Israel's existence (the temple) and unleashed his fury over their hypocrisy. Why are Christians still cowering to the Zionist hoax of untouchability? There is nothing uniquely sacred about a Jew or Israel--nothing at all. All life is sacred.

by: jonabark

01-10-2009 @ 6:45am

I don't think WW2 and its origins in the pursuit of military and colonial dominance ended so much as shifted and changed form. The US established its own brand of colonial rule so that the dollar became the world's currency, any country that sought to nationalize its natural resources was a candidate for war, financial disaster or military coup and military bases were planted all over the globe. Communism became the new enemy, etc. The fighting soon picked up in Korea, Vietnam Angola and many other places. Some American generals wanted an all out nuclear attack on Russia. The Communist party posed as the vanguard of the proletariat and murdered millions in its own war to make the world into a workers paradise, also accomplishing some admirable things as did Democracy and Capitalism, but in all cases inseparable from war and oppression. Gandhian tactics of nonviolent resistance were born around the same time( Derived from Jesus teachings as interpreted by Tolstoy and Buddhist and Hindu sources) and showed a powerful path against military imperialism. Many causes and even nations have used these tactics effectively but most of the world is still caught up in the violent 2 step of lefties vs. rightys. When you fight fire with fire the tendency is to become what you seek to end.

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 4:44pm

Some of the anger is a result of the one sided media presentation which seems to accept the premise that clear moral criticism of israel's actions in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank would be anti-semitic. Israeli dissidents and Jewish peace activists like Michael Lerner often have the strongest words of criticism in any formal publications and are generally unheard in the MSM. The same occurs in politics. Te Senate voted a statement of support for Israel but act as though the Gazans have no just grievance. This does not reflect the changing attitudes of American s who have grown suspicious of the media messages., and see the injustice before their eyes.Most of the world thinks a 2 sate solution is the most viable option but Kadima is unwilling to give up the settlements. The ultimate anti-semitism is the US collusion in the destruction of a viable Palestinian homeland. These are all Semitic peoples with Semitic languages and the Palestinians have been in the region as long as Judaism existed. The US has simply not stood up for UN resolution 242 or the just treatment of Israeli occupied Palestine. This has gone on for too long.

I do not accept tat Zionism is a code word for Judaism, but this debate does require that we not succumb to hatred, ill will or stereotypes of any kind.

by: SisterMarie

01-09-2009 @ 5:17pm

martingugino,

Although you can't totally delete a comment that you have made, if you write something that you'd like to take back or rephrase, you can click on the reblog link and that will take you back to your post and then you can rewrite it or backspace over it.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:45pm

It's easy for "us" to say we shouldn't succumb to hatred when it wasn't our land that has been taken, our homes destroyed, our way of life disrupted, our children killed.

Think how you would feel if the illegal immigrants in your state, with the help of
the governments of Mexico and say China, appropriated your land, terrorized your family, overthrew the government and established their own "state" in it's place and where you were became a second class citizen subject to discrimination in a land your ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:55pm

Yitzhak Rabin

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-09-2009 @ 5:56pm

Yes, it's easy. And it's also right. And it's in the Palestinians best interest not to hate, even if you accept all their claims at face value.

To borrow a line from Don Corleone: "Don't hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."

LV

by: littleroundtop

01-10-2009 @ 8:15pm

Jona most of the news i have seen in my area , Seattle , or the news on TV has not been pro Israel . In fact almost all the pictures I have seen have been innocent palenstinian civilians . So I really don't think the pro Israel propaganda machine is out in this country at this time on this issue .

I usually click through the news , CNBC , CNN , and Fox then local to glean the information . Pretty much the same I thought on this subject anyway .

Isreal was being bombed , missles that killed a few people . They attacked in force and have killed 500 and counting . Many civilians . The world has been trying to get the shooting to stop , Moral criticism of Isreal is not what was being
attacked here . Its speaking about putting people in ovens .

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 7:16pm

All of what you say is true. It is very hard to feel anything but outrage and hatred when subjected to violence. I am amazed by the many Palestinians and Israelis also who continue to put away vengeance and hate and call for peaceful resolution. We must also understand the the history of Jews in Europe and their sense that only a homeland could protect them from continuing to be a people continually scape-goated by the nations.

My ancestors fled the Irish Potato Famine. Somewhere in that reality was born a deep mistrust for all the claims of empire. I was born in North America, in a country whose territory was mostly stolen from tribal peoples. I have refused to serve in the US army but a portion of my taxes go to war. My claims to moral or ethnic purity are limited. But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone. We cannot all return to our ancestral lands, but the West Bank is still in dispute and the Palestinians have the most just and powerful claim to this land.

Violence is not working as a tactic for the Palestinians. They have put themselves in a terrible spot by resuming the rockets. They cannot stop without rewarding the Israeli violence and they cannot continue without incurring hundreds of times the losses they inflict. Hamas has not provided any better leadership for the the real needs of the Palestinian than Kadima or Likud for the Israelis.

My ancestors fled the Potato Famine in Ireland, I was born and grew up in a country that stole most of its land from Native North Americans , But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone.

by: djd1258

01-10-2009 @ 9:34pm

youre like the only guy in here with a good insight on the situation from what im reading. Im with you brother

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 7:36pm

Violence does work and it might yet work for the Palestinians. We live in a corrupt world where lying, deceit, violence, does achieve certain ends.

Consider Jacob in the Old Testament, or consider how the Israelites were to treat the Amelkites. Isn't this the world people live in.

by: djd1258

01-10-2009 @ 9:39pm

youre not going to appease a people whose objective is to wipe you off the face of the planet and will stop at nothing less

by: djd1258

01-10-2009 @ 9:41pm

the palistinians are not "us" they were warned what would happin and they refused to do it peacefully, now regretfully this is the result. but this is the only thing they will understand, maybe in the next election should there be one , they will pick a more peaceful leadership

by: Joelschwartzman

01-16-2009 @ 2:10am

The Israelis have informers...what we call HUMIT. They also trace cell phone calls. They have some pretty sophisticated equipment. They should. They invented it!

by: cantabrigian

01-09-2009 @ 9:16pm

Amen to that!

by: PASTOR JEFF

01-16-2009 @ 2:53am

Thank you Kevin and Joel. I have no doubt that Israel has the technological capacity to identify their enemies. Unfortunately you both subscribe to the myth of "clean" technology. My doubts are with the fallibility of the users of the technology and it's transition from data to reality.

by: vetcurt

01-11-2009 @ 2:51pm

Are you talking about the minority of Palestinians that refuse to recognize the state that was carved out of that part of the world by the U.S. and Europeans in payment for Europe's involvement in the Holocaust?
Or are you referring to the minority of Jews who claim the lands of Palestine are theirs based on a couple of versus out of the old testament?

by: Eric77

01-10-2009 @ 2:15am

Shouldn't the Palestinians offer to stop shooting regardless of what Israel does to them? Isn't this the standard that Jesus set for us? We're not supposes to respond to violence with more violence.

by: kevin47

01-11-2009 @ 10:44pm

Ethnic cleansing is violence with the intent to eradicate an entire race in favor of a different race. Israel has demonstrated no interest in ethnic cleansing. Hamas has, though, and Israel is simply defending itself from the aggressor.

Pretending that responding to rocket attacks constitutes ethnic cleansing may not be anti-Semitic, but it is utterly dishonest.

by: djd1258

01-11-2009 @ 10:46pm

How about carved out by gods hand. Do you know the origin of the palistinians?
a Roman general named Hadrian hated the jewis people so much that after 70 ad he changed the maps to read "palistine" they never were nor are they now intitled by God or anyone else as heirs to the land they claim belongs to them

by: kevin47

01-11-2009 @ 10:47pm

"They could all line up and march like Ghandi had the Indians do, but I don't think Israel has the aversion to shooting unarmed resistors like the English did."

This represents a gross misunderstanding (or outright deceit) regarding Israel's actions. They are targetting Hamas, and always make an effort no minimize civilian casualites. Hamas, on the other hand, targets only civilians.

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by: erbe

01-08-2009 @ 7:49pm

Zionism and Zionists should be thought of separately from Judaism and Jews. And Israel, as a Zionist state, can be equated with apartheid South Africa and prewar Japan in their "racial" attitudes. Thought of in this way, people can legitimately ask for the destruction of Israel as a Zionist state without hating or behaving with prejudice towards all Jews. Jews should be able to live in Israel/Palestine, Israel/Palestine should not however not be a "Jewish" state.

by: erbe

01-08-2009 @ 7:49pm

Zionism and Zionists should be thought of separately from Judaism and Jews. And Israel, as a Zionist state, can be equated with apartheid South Africa and prewar Japan in their "racial" attitudes. Thought of in this way, people can legitimately ask for the destruction of Israel as a Zionist state without hating or behaving with prejudice towards all Jews. Jews should be able to live in Israel/Palestine, Israel/Palestine should not however not be a "Jewish" state.

by: NMRod

01-08-2009 @ 7:57pm

The challenge is, how can we encourage each other to express love, even when we have grown to think of ourselves as "enemies" and to put the other person first?

This is the challenge and its fulfillment the blessing of becoming the peacemakers Jesus wants us to be.

by: NMRod

01-08-2009 @ 7:57pm

The challenge is, how can we encourage each other to express love, even when we have grown to think of ourselves as "enemies" and to put the other person first?

This is the challenge and its fulfillment the blessing of becoming the peacemakers Jesus wants us to be.

by: Tony_D

01-08-2009 @ 8:17pm

In response to NMRod, I'd commend Michael Lerner's piece on the "Tikkun" website (http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php/200...). It was reprinted earlier this week in the London "Times".

by: Tony_D

01-08-2009 @ 8:17pm

In response to NMRod, I'd commend Michael Lerner's piece on the "Tikkun" website (http://files.tikkun.org/current/article.php/200...). It was reprinted earlier this week in the London "Times".

by: Mark86

01-08-2009 @ 8:20pm

I agree, I don't think that King knew enough about the differences between Zionism and Judaism when he made his comment. I think the Zionistic juggernaut wasn't truly perfected until Ariel Sharon touched it. Zionism must be thought of as a colonizing racist thought process. I don't think it is wrong to associate Zionism with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. But it is wrong to associate any of these things with the Jewish people. Most of the settlers in Palestine (outside of the more radical sites like Hebron) don't even realize the fact they are occupying someone else's land. All they know is that the Israeli realtors offered them cheap rent to live in a land where they would be secured. Who wouldn't take that in this day and age? But it is, as it is everyones, the responsibility of the Jewish people to educate themselves on the history of the conflict and stand-up to their government.
The international world gave Israel far to much latitude to repeat the cycle of violence. The best way we all could have responded to the Holocaust is to not let it happen again. But I guess we will have to wait until this round of genocides is over...

by: Mark86

01-08-2009 @ 8:20pm

I agree, I don't think that King knew enough about the differences between Zionism and Judaism when he made his comment. I think the Zionistic juggernaut wasn't truly perfected until Ariel Sharon touched it. Zionism must be thought of as a colonizing racist thought process. I don't think it is wrong to associate Zionism with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine. But it is wrong to associate any of these things with the Jewish people. Most of the settlers in Palestine (outside of the more radical sites like Hebron) don't even realize the fact they are occupying someone else's land. All they know is that the Israeli realtors offered them cheap rent to live in a land where they would be secured. Who wouldn't take that in this day and age? But it is, as it is everyones, the responsibility of the Jewish people to educate themselves on the history of the conflict and stand-up to their government.
The international world gave Israel far to much latitude to repeat the cycle of violence. The best way we all could have responded to the Holocaust is to not let it happen again. But I guess we will have to wait until this round of genocides is over...

by: pedrud

01-08-2009 @ 8:53pm

I guess that I fail to see how accusing the State of Israel of ethnic cleansing is anti-Semitic. Ethnic cleansing (apartheid, whatever you wish to call it) as Websters defines it is "the expulsion, imprisonment, or killing of an ethnic minority by a dominant majority in order to achieve ethnic homogeneity". These (expulsion, imprisonment, & killing) are the exact actions that the State of Israel and the IDF have taken against Palestinians. This is not anti-Semitic. This is speaking truth and many who support these actions do not want to hear it. Many Christians in America blindly support the State of Israel, yet do not know what actually occurs - nor do they want to. If they did, their consciences would be burdened with such a weight over the inhumane practices used against the Palestinians that they could no longer blindly support Israel.

Violence begets violence.

According to the author's logic, condemning Israel for ethnic cleansing is anti-Semitic. Then the next logical step would be that condemning Hamas for their actions would be anti-Palestinain/Arab. However, many freely condemn Hamas for their actions, yet they are a governing body as much as the State of Israel is a governing body. So this argument is not logical.

If the condemnation of Israel for their political/military actions is anti-Semitic. Then condemnation of Hamas for their political/military actions is equally anti-Palestinian/Arab. However, if Hamas can be criticized and condemned for their political/military actions and it is not seen as anti-Palestinian/Arab, then Israel can equally be criticized and condemned for their political/military actions without it being anti-Semitic.

Peace, I only hope and pray for peace for us all.

by: nuclearferret

01-08-2009 @ 9:12pm

I couldn't disagree more. It is any individual nation-state's decision to determine if it will intermingle religion and state; the US model of secular, religion-less government has its place. But if a nation decides to be a Christian, Muslim or Jewish (or any other) religion-based state, that is their business.

But you are right about one thing: A "Israel/Palestine" shouldn't be a Jewish state, because it shouldn't exist at all, and shame on the world if that is the "solution."

by: carlcopas

01-08-2009 @ 9:13pm

Tony, this is a powerful article. Thanks for the link.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:29pm

I agree with Carlcopas. Thank you.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:29pm

I agree with Carlcopas. Thank you.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:30pm

The points vampire took a point away from Tony_D. Shame. I restored it.

by: BuckeyeDon

01-08-2009 @ 9:30pm

The points vampire took a point away from Tony_D. Shame. I restored it.

by: erbe

01-08-2009 @ 9:46pm

I'm sure Jesus was thrilled to see the Zionists appropriate Palestinian land with trickery and subterfuge and when that didn't work with the Irgun and Stern Gang. And I'm sure he was thrilled at how the Zionists went about establishing their state with land appropriated from the Palestinians. And what must really please Jesus now is how the Zionists show their love and compassion to their "enemies". Did Jesus say we were to love our enemies? Turn the other cheek? Oh, I forget the Zionists live by another moral code, promulgated by their "spiritual" ancestor Jacob. And we shouldn't forget the other tenet that is a cornerstone of their moral philosophy - eyes for an eye, teeth for a tooth.

And of course, the United States government, as the worlds leading "Christian" moral authority, supports Israel's Zionists completely.

by: erbe

01-08-2009 @ 9:46pm

I'm sure Jesus was thrilled to see the Zionists appropriate Palestinian land with trickery and subterfuge and when that didn't work with the Irgun and Stern Gang. And I'm sure he was thrilled at how the Zionists went about establishing their state with land appropriated from the Palestinians. And what must really please Jesus now is how the Zionists show their love and compassion to their "enemies". Did Jesus say we were to love our enemies? Turn the other cheek? Oh, I forget the Zionists live by another moral code, promulgated by their "spiritual" ancestor Jacob. And we shouldn't forget the other tenet that is a cornerstone of their moral philosophy - eyes for an eye, teeth for a tooth.

And of course, the United States government, as the worlds leading "Christian" moral authority, supports Israel's Zionists completely.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:03pm

In many circles, "an eye for an eye" would be seen as a great leap forward.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:03pm

In many circles, "an eye for an eye" would be seen as a great leap forward.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:11pm

Makes sense to me.

by: martingugino

01-08-2009 @ 10:11pm

Makes sense to me.

by: Palosaari

01-08-2009 @ 10:37pm

I agree with your article. A very timely and important point.

But- not all of the placard examples you gave would be anti-Semitism. Most would be, but I'd pull out two examples as exceptions. To state that what Israel is doing is ethnic cleansing is a statement of fact (true or not), one that President Carter made, and many would agree with.

And while I disagree with the angry and hate-filled tone, there is a certain truth that many scholars like Walter Wink have noted, in the principle of violent mimicry- we become that which we hate. Many who are pro-Jewish or Jewish themselves have noted with sadness the similarities of tactics *to a certain degree* between the aggressors of WWII and the practices of the IDF. Even in '48, some of the heroes who helped the Jews escape the Nazis, and were present during al Naka, were noticing with horror the similarities. It should be noted, this is nothing like genocide, but there is a certain degree of ethnic cleansing, and eerie similarities between what the Jews faced in '45 and the Palestinians have faced thereafter.

by: JoannaCW

01-09-2009 @ 12:49am

Please. I am neither Jewish nor well-versed in Judaism, but certainly honesty, justice for the oppressed and mercy are all well grounded in the Hebrew Scripture. Read the prescriptions for the year of jubilee. Read the prophets. Read the provisions for sanctuary cities. Blaming Israel's present conduct on the Old Testament is as unfair as blaming our own country;'s wars on Christianity.

by: rgf

01-09-2009 @ 3:36am

ARABS ARE SEMITES -- Many Israelis are NOT -- who is concerned about the anti-
Semitism lobbed at Arabs -- especially by Israelis and their government?

by: Hanita

01-09-2009 @ 3:43am

THIS CONFLICT IS NOT ABOUT ISRAEL AND THE ARABS......IT IS ABOUT ISLAM HAVING ALL THE LAND, ANYWHERE A MOSLEM CAN AND WILL LIVE. THERE WILL BE NO ROOM FOR CHRISTIANITY OR JUDAISM OR HINDUISM OR BUDDISM. Please understand the situation and why the bombs are falling. Israel fights for the whole world.

by: vetcurt

01-09-2009 @ 7:45am

Many good points made. The only comment I would call anti-semite is the one mentioning the ovens. I call what Israel has been doing over the years slow motion ethnic cleansing. The situation in Gaza reminds me of the Jew's resistance in Warsaw.
There is quite a peace movement in Israel but we hear little of it in this country. Remember, they once were leading the country and then Rabin was assasinated.
If we have separation of church and state as a basic principle, how can we give such blank check support ot all of Israel's actions. They are a theocracy similar to Iran. Many more middle east states are on the verge of becoming religous-based states. Their actions are proof of the value of separation of church and state.
As for what Israel takes out of the old testament, it is often said that the Bible can be used to prove anything. Israel picks and chooses what it wants to justify it's actions just like some of the Muslim Mullahs misuse the Koran. For instance, if one focuses on Exodus 20 you have the 10 Commandments. But if you focus on the very next chapter you get instructions on treating slaves, including selling your daughter into slavery, and some instructions on who should be put to death. So what does "Thou shalt not kill" mean?
There are 750,000 people in Gaza. After days of bombing the infrastructure, Israel tries to strike a humanitarian pose by saying "OK, you have 3 hours to get in there, distribute water and food and get out". How rediculous is that?
Another "good one" is the justification of killing civilians by saying "We warned them to get out". Where are they expected to go? Experience says that if they somehow went to another country they would not be allowed back, like those stuck in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.
The Palestinians should offer to stop shooting into Israel if Israel stops all construction in settlements and Palestinian neighborhoods in Israel.
All the cease-fire proposals specify only what the Palestinians must not do in the future. Lets try to change the behavior of both sides.

by: vetcurt

01-09-2009 @ 7:45am

Many good points made. The only comment I would call anti-semite is the one mentioning the ovens. I call what Israel has been doing over the years slow motion ethnic cleansing. The situation in Gaza reminds me of the Jew's resistance in Warsaw.
There is quite a peace movement in Israel but we hear little of it in this country. Remember, they once were leading the country and then Rabin was assasinated.
If we have separation of church and state as a basic principle, how can we give such blank check support ot all of Israel's actions. They are a theocracy similar to Iran. Many more middle east states are on the verge of becoming religous-based states. Their actions are proof of the value of separation of church and state.
As for what Israel takes out of the old testament, it is often said that the Bible can be used to prove anything. Israel picks and chooses what it wants to justify it's actions just like some of the Muslim Mullahs misuse the Koran. For instance, if one focuses on Exodus 20 you have the 10 Commandments. But if you focus on the very next chapter you get instructions on treating slaves, including selling your daughter into slavery, and some instructions on who should be put to death. So what does "Thou shalt not kill" mean?
There are 750,000 people in Gaza. After days of bombing the infrastructure, Israel tries to strike a humanitarian pose by saying "OK, you have 3 hours to get in there, distribute water and food and get out". How rediculous is that?
Another "good one" is the justification of killing civilians by saying "We warned them to get out". Where are they expected to go? Experience says that if they somehow went to another country they would not be allowed back, like those stuck in refugee camps in Lebanon and Jordan.
The Palestinians should offer to stop shooting into Israel if Israel stops all construction in settlements and Palestinian neighborhoods in Israel.
All the cease-fire proposals specify only what the Palestinians must not do in the future. Lets try to change the behavior of both sides.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 12:03pm

Read where the God of the Old Testament told the Israelites to go in and kill every man, woman, and child in the land He was giving them.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 12:03pm

Read where the God of the Old Testament told the Israelites to go in and kill every man, woman, and child in the land He was giving them.

by: truthonfire

01-09-2009 @ 3:49pm

Israel is a nation founded on terror and blatant racism. It came into existence principally at the hands of secular Jewish fanatics who had no compunction about brutally murdering the local non-Jewish population. I don't throw around words loosely--the acts of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang ,which were the militarized arm of the Zionist movement ,were unconscionably atrocious and inhumane The state of Israel has systematically continued their reign of terror, murder and deception.

Israel is anything but a democracy. It features a race-based, multitiered society with apartheid conditions and official preference for Judaic orthodoxy. And as this latest incursion into Gaza has shown, freedom of press is a myth.

Israel perpetuates an "abused victim" mantra as its national ethos in order to congeal its Jewish citizenry into a paranoid military state and to silence any and all criticism.

Israel's official stance is that it has a right to defend itself. My question is this: "does a robber have a 'right' to self-defense, even as it ransacks another's property and threatens their lives?" American taxpayers alone spend 3 billion dollars a year arming Israel to the teeth, and yet Israel has the audacity to make an issue about Palestinian resistance and their comparatively miniscule efforts at arming themselves.

Then there is the insidious movement to stealthily infuse Christianity with Zionist propaganda. That propaganda is that Jews as a people and Israel as a state are sacrosanct--end of story. It is this religious dogma which underlies the indiscriminate financial-political support by the Christian Zionists and which helps ensure Israel's continued impunity. That is not to mention the American Israeli Political Action Committee and its immeasurable political clout.

If Christians are to assess Israel's existence in light of their sacred text, they must not forget the very words of their lord and savior the Christ himself: "If you (Jerusalem) had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes..."(Luke 19:43) Immediately after saying this Jesus entered the heart of Israel's existence (the temple) and unleashed his fury over their hypocrisy. Why are Christians still cowering to the Zionist hoax of untouchability? There is nothing uniquely sacred about a Jew or Israel--nothing at all. All life is sacred.

by: truthonfire

01-09-2009 @ 3:49pm

Israel is a nation founded on terror and blatant racism. It came into existence principally at the hands of secular Jewish fanatics who had no compunction about brutally murdering the local non-Jewish population. I don't throw around words loosely--the acts of the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang ,which were the militarized arm of the Zionist movement ,were unconscionably atrocious and inhumane The state of Israel has systematically continued their reign of terror, murder and deception.

Israel is anything but a democracy. It features a race-based, multitiered society with apartheid conditions and official preference for Judaic orthodoxy. And as this latest incursion into Gaza has shown, freedom of press is a myth.

Israel perpetuates an "abused victim" mantra as its national ethos in order to congeal its Jewish citizenry into a paranoid military state and to silence any and all criticism.

Israel's official stance is that it has a right to defend itself. My question is this: "does a robber have a 'right' to self-defense, even as it ransacks another's property and threatens their lives?" American taxpayers alone spend 3 billion dollars a year arming Israel to the teeth, and yet Israel has the audacity to make an issue about Palestinian resistance and their comparatively miniscule efforts at arming themselves.

Then there is the insidious movement to stealthily infuse Christianity with Zionist propaganda. That propaganda is that Jews as a people and Israel as a state are sacrosanct--end of story. It is this religious dogma which underlies the indiscriminate financial-political support by the Christian Zionists and which helps ensure Israel's continued impunity. That is not to mention the American Israeli Political Action Committee and its immeasurable political clout.

If Christians are to assess Israel's existence in light of their sacred text, they must not forget the very words of their lord and savior the Christ himself: "If you (Jerusalem) had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes..."(Luke 19:43) Immediately after saying this Jesus entered the heart of Israel's existence (the temple) and unleashed his fury over their hypocrisy. Why are Christians still cowering to the Zionist hoax of untouchability? There is nothing uniquely sacred about a Jew or Israel--nothing at all. All life is sacred.

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 4:44pm

Some of the anger is a result of the one sided media presentation which seems to accept the premise that clear moral criticism of israel's actions in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank would be anti-semitic. Israeli dissidents and Jewish peace activists like Michael Lerner often have the strongest words of criticism in any formal publications and are generally unheard in the MSM. The same occurs in politics. Te Senate voted a statement of support for Israel but act as though the Gazans have no just grievance. This does not reflect the changing attitudes of American s who have grown suspicious of the media messages., and see the injustice before their eyes.Most of the world thinks a 2 sate solution is the most viable option but Kadima is unwilling to give up the settlements. The ultimate anti-semitism is the US collusion in the destruction of a viable Palestinian homeland. These are all Semitic peoples with Semitic languages and the Palestinians have been in the region as long as Judaism existed. The US has simply not stood up for UN resolution 242 or the just treatment of Israeli occupied Palestine. This has gone on for too long.

I do not accept tat Zionism is a code word for Judaism, but this debate does require that we not succumb to hatred, ill will or stereotypes of any kind.

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 4:44pm

Some of the anger is a result of the one sided media presentation which seems to accept the premise that clear moral criticism of israel's actions in Lebanon, Gaza, the West Bank would be anti-semitic. Israeli dissidents and Jewish peace activists like Michael Lerner often have the strongest words of criticism in any formal publications and are generally unheard in the MSM. The same occurs in politics. Te Senate voted a statement of support for Israel but act as though the Gazans have no just grievance. This does not reflect the changing attitudes of American s who have grown suspicious of the media messages., and see the injustice before their eyes.Most of the world thinks a 2 sate solution is the most viable option but Kadima is unwilling to give up the settlements. The ultimate anti-semitism is the US collusion in the destruction of a viable Palestinian homeland. These are all Semitic peoples with Semitic languages and the Palestinians have been in the region as long as Judaism existed. The US has simply not stood up for UN resolution 242 or the just treatment of Israeli occupied Palestine. This has gone on for too long.

I do not accept tat Zionism is a code word for Judaism, but this debate does require that we not succumb to hatred, ill will or stereotypes of any kind.

by: SisterMarie

01-09-2009 @ 5:17pm

martingugino,

Although you can't totally delete a comment that you have made, if you write something that you'd like to take back or rephrase, you can click on the reblog link and that will take you back to your post and then you can rewrite it or backspace over it.

by: SisterMarie

01-09-2009 @ 5:17pm

martingugino,

Although you can't totally delete a comment that you have made, if you write something that you'd like to take back or rephrase, you can click on the reblog link and that will take you back to your post and then you can rewrite it or backspace over it.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:45pm

It's easy for "us" to say we shouldn't succumb to hatred when it wasn't our land that has been taken, our homes destroyed, our way of life disrupted, our children killed.

Think how you would feel if the illegal immigrants in your state, with the help of
the governments of Mexico and say China, appropriated your land, terrorized your family, overthrew the government and established their own "state" in it's place and where you were became a second class citizen subject to discrimination in a land your ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:45pm

It's easy for "us" to say we shouldn't succumb to hatred when it wasn't our land that has been taken, our homes destroyed, our way of life disrupted, our children killed.

Think how you would feel if the illegal immigrants in your state, with the help of
the governments of Mexico and say China, appropriated your land, terrorized your family, overthrew the government and established their own "state" in it's place and where you were became a second class citizen subject to discrimination in a land your ancestors had lived in for hundreds of years.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:55pm

Yitzhak Rabin

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 5:55pm

Yitzhak Rabin

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-09-2009 @ 5:56pm

Yes, it's easy. And it's also right. And it's in the Palestinians best interest not to hate, even if you accept all their claims at face value.

To borrow a line from Don Corleone: "Don't hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

01-09-2009 @ 5:56pm

Yes, it's easy. And it's also right. And it's in the Palestinians best interest not to hate, even if you accept all their claims at face value.

To borrow a line from Don Corleone: "Don't hate your enemies. It affects your judgment."

LV

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 7:16pm

All of what you say is true. It is very hard to feel anything but outrage and hatred when subjected to violence. I am amazed by the many Palestinians and Israelis also who continue to put away vengeance and hate and call for peaceful resolution. We must also understand the the history of Jews in Europe and their sense that only a homeland could protect them from continuing to be a people continually scape-goated by the nations.

My ancestors fled the Irish Potato Famine. Somewhere in that reality was born a deep mistrust for all the claims of empire. I was born in North America, in a country whose territory was mostly stolen from tribal peoples. I have refused to serve in the US army but a portion of my taxes go to war. My claims to moral or ethnic purity are limited. But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone. We cannot all return to our ancestral lands, but the West Bank is still in dispute and the Palestinians have the most just and powerful claim to this land.

Violence is not working as a tactic for the Palestinians. They have put themselves in a terrible spot by resuming the rockets. They cannot stop without rewarding the Israeli violence and they cannot continue without incurring hundreds of times the losses they inflict. Hamas has not provided any better leadership for the the real needs of the Palestinian than Kadima or Likud for the Israelis.

My ancestors fled the Potato Famine in Ireland, I was born and grew up in a country that stole most of its land from Native North Americans , But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone.

by: jonabark

01-09-2009 @ 7:16pm

All of what you say is true. It is very hard to feel anything but outrage and hatred when subjected to violence. I am amazed by the many Palestinians and Israelis also who continue to put away vengeance and hate and call for peaceful resolution. We must also understand the the history of Jews in Europe and their sense that only a homeland could protect them from continuing to be a people continually scape-goated by the nations.

My ancestors fled the Irish Potato Famine. Somewhere in that reality was born a deep mistrust for all the claims of empire. I was born in North America, in a country whose territory was mostly stolen from tribal peoples. I have refused to serve in the US army but a portion of my taxes go to war. My claims to moral or ethnic purity are limited. But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone. We cannot all return to our ancestral lands, but the West Bank is still in dispute and the Palestinians have the most just and powerful claim to this land.

Violence is not working as a tactic for the Palestinians. They have put themselves in a terrible spot by resuming the rockets. They cannot stop without rewarding the Israeli violence and they cannot continue without incurring hundreds of times the losses they inflict. Hamas has not provided any better leadership for the the real needs of the Palestinian than Kadima or Likud for the Israelis.

My ancestors fled the Potato Famine in Ireland, I was born and grew up in a country that stole most of its land from Native North Americans , But I am now as much a native of North America as anyone.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 7:36pm

Violence does work and it might yet work for the Palestinians. We live in a corrupt world where lying, deceit, violence, does achieve certain ends.

Consider Jacob in the Old Testament, or consider how the Israelites were to treat the Amelkites. Isn't this the world people live in.

by: erbe

01-09-2009 @ 7:36pm

Violence does work and it might yet work for the Palestinians. We live in a corrupt world where lying, deceit, violence, does achieve certain ends.

Consider Jacob in the Old Testament, or consider how the Israelites were to treat the Amelkites. Isn't this the world people live in.

by: cantabrigian

01-09-2009 @ 9:16pm

Amen to that!

by: cantabrigian

01-09-2009 @ 9:16pm

Amen to that!

by: Eric77

01-10-2009 @ 2:15am

Shouldn't the Palestinians offer to stop shooting regardless of what Israel does to them? Isn't this the standard that Jesus set for us? We're not supposes to respond to violence with more violence.

by: Eric77

01-10-2009 @ 2:15am

Shouldn't the Palestinians offer to stop shooting regardless of what Israel does to them? Isn't this the standard that Jesus set for us? We're not supposes to respond to violence with more violence.

by: vetcurt

01-10-2009 @ 3:32am

Perhaps so in a better world. Self defense is a tough call. Considering what they have gone through the last 40 years, if I put myself in their shoes I can't say I wouldn't be supporting Hamas. They could all line up and march like Ghandi had the Indians do, but I don't think Israel has the aversion to shooting unarmed resistors like the English did. I think Israel would have their army keep shooting in "self defense".
Not all situations are the same. If Ghandi or Martin Luther King or even Jesus had been in the KGB's Russia or Cambodia or China or Uganda ar any number of other places, they would have been dead before many even heard of them.
The alternative is that the Palestinians don't resist at all. In that case Israel would merrily continue settlements, land grabs, and increasing oppression to get the Palestinians to leave so they can have the land "God gave them". If that is their future, they may as well go out into the desert someplace and hope world aid agencies take pitty on them and feed them.