Beyond Gaza: An Abrahamic Peace

people of GAza really needs supplies such as medicines and food hope Obama could make a solution with this

<>"I struggle with whether peace can be event initiated and subsequently enforced. Is this how you view personal peace with God?" James- yes<>

I'm not sure I understand the point you are making here. Do I believe there can be peace treaties between people and countries? Yes, if both sides are willing to abide by the treaties. In the situation under consideration, both sides are not willing to abide by any treaty that allows for the continued existence of Israel. Why is it so hard for Hamas or some of the other Arab nations to declare that the state of Israel has a right to exist even if they returned to the pre-1967 borders? What I mean by personal peace with God refers to an individual who has accepted the sacrifice that God offered to them through Jesus Christ and therefore is no longer separated from Him. Though I still struggle with sin I know that I have a loving Father who forgives me of my sin because of His Son's sacrifice. I no longer have to feel guilty for my wickedness and He gives me the power to overcome my sin nature. I may not always be successful in this endeavor but my Father is there helping me all the way. As Paul said, "18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin." ( Romans 7"18-25) As a result of this relationship God's love can work through me to others. This may or may not lead to a peaceful relationship with them but if I respond to others with my sin nature only I can pretty much guarantee there won't be a peaceful relationship between us.

<>"One option implied in your "peace only when Jesus returns" model means the eradication of the opposition. How is this different from "radical Islam's" call to kill the infidels?" <>
<interpreted James>- it is not except the killing will be done by a Soveriegn Christ<end James>

I think you missed the point I was making. It is not just a sovereign or omnipotent Christ who will rule but also a true and righteous God who will rule. Therefore His judgments will be fair and righteous. Radical Muslims are fallible and sinful humans who judgments are not righteous and true. How many times have you heard the question, "How could God allow this happen?" During the Millennium He will no longer allow "this to happen" and no one will ask how could God allow this to happen because they will know His judgments are right. You could ask how could a loving God send someone to Hell yet the New Testament declares that He will. Would you or anyone else ask God how He could do this? He is perfect and righteous and therefore we who are imperfect cannot question the fairness of this concept. To do so would imply that we are more merciful and righteous than God and that He is wrong for committing this action.

<>With regards to your references:
Isa 55 goes on to explain God's longing to be understood such that He "sent His word" toward that end. When the limits of that word became evident He sent a Living Word, His only Son, so we could behold Him. He then sends His Spirit whereby believers "have the mind of Christ". Jesus said that we are no longer servants but friends because He tells us of His ways/plans. Abraham was called the friend of God because God said He would not do anything except He talk with Abraham about this.<>

My point was that we will never understand all His ways in this life because He dwells in and transcends all dimensions. We are finite beings with limitations as the apostle Paul alluded to in Romans, "9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (Romans 13:9-12) As I stated above, can you or anyone else explains God's ways when it comes to His decision to send a person to Hell for eternity?

<>A soveriegn unknowable God who rules as He wills, tolerating no rebellion and executing His enemies is Allah, the God of Islam (submission). You sound more Muslim than Christian. Hopefully you are a moderate.<>

Actually, I'm sure there are those who would call me a right wing extremist. I'm fine with that because my worldview is based on God's word. If I am labeled a fanatic and dangerous to the rest of tolerant civilization, so be it. I am ultimately responsible to God not man.

<>I still struggle with the concept of peace initiated by "it will be horrible and unlike any other time in history. This will be a time of God's righteous judgment upon a rebellious world. At that time "He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." " When people adopt this idea of peace it leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing as they pursue peace through purity and elimination of "the other"<>

Again, you have to remember that it is God who is initiating this judgment, not man. God wiped out the world except for Noah and his family. God ordained the Jews to enter into Canaan and conquer the people who were living there because He promised the land to the Jews. God used the Babylonian Empire to conquer the Jews and destroy their Temple. There are many other examples that I could list. The bottom line is you have to either trust God's fairness and righteousness in these events or dispute that He is indeed just and equitable. That is why in the previous post I quoted Paul's statement concerning the clay telling the potter how to behave and also the passage about His ways are not our ways. I think that's the problem in the modern Church. They only want to see the loving side of God and not the judgmental side of Him. Both aspects need to be taught to Jesus' followers for as Jude said, "21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh." (Jude 21-23) Proverbs also declares balance to be the wisest course of action, "By mercy AND truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil." (Proverbs 16:6)

[note on questioning the of God. I don't mean that we can never ask God honest questions like, How can You send someone to Hell. But if we don't get an answer or the answer we like we still have to trust in God's righteousness and fairness. He sent His Son to die for all the unrighteousness and inequitable deeds ever committed by the human race.]

United States aid to Israel since 1949 total around $84,000,000,000. Most of that aid was for weapons, weapon systems and other military expenditures. Now, that aid comes to around $3,500,000,000 per year.

Don't you wonder what would happen if it stopped?

Appreciate the piece and comments very much. In addition to the approaches presented, perhaps it's time for a new "Abrahamic Covenant" that outlines how Palestinians, Jews, and Christians will engage each other, out of respect for their common father. One aspect could certainly be an agreement for non-violent action. Another could be a priority for collaborative effort on all parties' parts, so that non-violent action is not merely taken by one group to the exclusion of others, but it would be taken together in the various jurisdictions within which the Covenant signatories live. The grand strategies at the top must me matched by practical strategies among the grassroots.

Beyond Gaza: An Abrahamic Peace is a nice and useful post. It looks that you are highly expert blogger. Your post is an excellent example of why I keep coming back to read your excellent quality content that is forever updated. Your all site is well managed and comprehensive.

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Well, no they weren't; at least not in the way erbe is using the term. Zionism began in the nineteenth century. It's anachronistic to try and project it back to the first.

That's a fair characterization of erbe's comments, Kevin.

As long as official United States policy continues to be hijacked by AIPAC and Zionist politicians nothing substantive will change for the better for the Palestinians.

And with Obama's chief of staff Rahm Emanuel's ancestry (his father was a member of the Zionist terrorist organization Irgun) want to bet that all we will hear from George Mitchell is more of the same spin we've been hearing for 60 years.

I hope not, but it doesn't look good. Just maybe, Obama will turn out to be a man and not a wimp.

United States aid to Israel since 1949 total around $84,000,000,000. Most of that aid was for weapons, weapon systems and other military expenditures. Now, that aid comes to around $3,500,000,000 per year.

Don't you wonder what would happen if it stopped?

Appreciate the piece and comments very much. In addition to the approaches presented, perhaps it's time for a new "Abrahamic Covenant" that outlines how Palestinians, Jews, and Christians will engage each other, out of respect for their common father. One aspect could certainly be an agreement for non-violent action. Another could be a priority for collaborative effort on all parties' parts, so that non-violent action is not merely taken by one group to the exclusion of others, but it would be taken together in the various jurisdictions within which the Covenant signatories live. The grand strategies at the top must me matched by practical strategies among the grassroots.

I love the term "Zionist". I bet you're a grand wizard or a cyclops. In case you forgot, Jesus and the Apostles were also "Zionists" as you say.

"Well, no they weren't; at least not in the way erbe is using the term."

Considering that he is using it as an empty pejorative, certainly not.

There will never be peace in the Mideast until Jesus Christ returns. There are two concepts in Islam that will never allow Israel to have peace until the Messiah returns. The first is Dar al-Islam which means House of Islam or House of Submission. Its adherents are made up of Muslim extremists. Dar al-Islam refers to countries where the law of Islam prevails and an Islamic government rules. Non-Muslims may live there under subjugation. Dar al-Harb means House of War and refers to those countries that are not under Islamic rule. It also refers to those lands which were once Islamic but were conquered by non-Muslims. The lands that are not Muslim are not legitimate because they are not under the authority of Allah. In the case of Israel those Muslims who subscribe to Dar al-Harb believe that the Jews are living on land that Allah gave to Islam. Therefore it is a disgrace to Islam and can only be rectified by Israel returning to Islamic rule. No matter how many moderate Muslims may want peace with Israel the Islamic hardliners can never allow Israel to exist. Under Dar al-Harb treaties and truces may be made but only with the goal of eventually retaking the land that once was under Islamic rule. Since
Israeli soldiers swear an oath declaring "Never again" will they be brought under the power of another government, they will never stop fighting to keep Israel. The Muslims riot over cartoons depicting their prophet Muhammad because it is a disgrace to him. How much more will they fight to regain Israel since it is a disgrace to Allah. Unless you can figure out what to do with the Muslim extremists true peace will not exist in Israel until Jesus Christ returns to govern the world from Jerusalem.

Pastor Jeff:
In reading James_Jackson's comments, including his "solution" below I get the impression that it's useless to even try and work for peace in the Middle East in any way, because it ain't gonna happen until the sky opens up and the Lord returns. So we should forget about praying for the peace of Jerusalem, I guess.

Never mind that Isaiah 2 might have a temporal as well as an eternal fulfillment. And that God doesn't want us to stand idly by and watch his children slaughter each other.

And never mind being about the Father's business, which in my understanding includes peacemaking (Matthew 5:9). It would be an exercise in futility.

<>In reading James_Jackson's comments, including his "solution" below I get the impression that it's useless to even try and work for peace in the Middle East in any way, because it ain't gonna happen until the sky opens up and the Lord returns. So we should forget about praying for the peace of Jerusalem, I guess.<>

That is not my solution but God's solution. We live in a fallen world and therefore our desires may not always be fulfilled the way we would like them. By all means try to make peace but please do not deceive yourself with idealistic views. I stated a reality concerning Muslim extremists and their view on who should rule in Israel. Unless you can address the issue of what to do with them they will never let Israel live in peace. Until you do, all the peacemaking efforts in the world will not succeed. That's just a reality as opposed to your characterization of a pie in the sky prophecy. Yes pray for the peace of Jerusalem but that doesn't mean God is going to answer that prayer in your time frame. The historical evidence shows that Jerusalem has experienced very little peace since the time of Jesus.

<>Never mind that Isaiah 2 might have a temporal as well as an eternal fulfillment. And that God doesn't want us to stand idly by and watch his children slaughter each other.<>

This passage clearly states that this prophecy will be fulfilled in the "last days". It also declares that the Lord's house or Temple will be established on the earth. No such structure exists at this time. Again, try to make peace but do it with not just your heart but also your mind. You may be able to reduce the violence in the area but you are not going to end it.

<>And never mind being about the Father's business, which in my understanding includes peacemaking (Matthew 5:9). It would be an exercise in futility.<>

Jesus said, "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27). The most important peace that man can experience is peace with God which is only available through Jesus Christ. Colossians states, "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" (Colossians 1:20). Paul said, "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus" (Philippians 4:7). If a person does not have peace with God he will not be able to have true peace with other people. Jesus said, "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law" (Luke 12:51-53). Paul said, "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18). The reality is that it isn't always possible to live in peace with others because others won't let you. Every problem in this world will not be solved until Jesus Christ comes again. That's a fact. However, as much as it lies within us we can try to make peace with others but it will not always result in peace.

Thank you for your help with the reply button.

<>Then your view of God differs greatly from mine. I don't believe God requires us to be fatalists, notwithstanding the reality of a fallen world.<>

I don't believe in fatalism either. Quite the contrary I know that Jesus Christ gives me life more abundantly and that refers to more than just earthly comforts. Paul said, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Titus 2:11-15) . I look forward to and hope for the "glorious appearing" of our Lord. However, we are to occupy until He comes and do good works and that includes peacemaking and spreading the gospel through word and deed.

<>It's a reality according to your opinion. I'm not sure I accept the truth of your "reality" regarding Muslims. How many Muslims do you know? I'm sure the Muslim students I have taught would have rejected your characteristic of their faith.<>

First of all, I did not say all Muslims subscribed to the concepts I mentioned. I don't know any Muslims. I used to work with one and he told me the Jews changed the wording of the Old Testament. I found this ironic since the last book of the Old Testament was written one thousand years before Muhammad was born. How many Muslim extremists do you know?

<>Furthermore, even if it is true, you ignore the possibility that God can work a change of heart.<>

Then changing their hearts is the solution to that problem. As I stated previously one can only know true peace when you make peace with God through Jesus Christ. But until the Muslims accept Jesus as their Savior they are going to keep following the tenets of their faith.

<>Where are you getting your information about Islam and Muslims?<>

Reading books and online sources.

<>But we are living in the "last days" right now--and have been since Pentecost: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..." (Acts 2:16-17); "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2). "It also declares that the Lord's house or Temple will be established on the earth."
Nothing in this passage, or in the parallel passage in Micah 4, requires us to believe that the "Lord's House" must be a physical structure. In fact, John 2:21-23 indicates that we no longer go up to the mountain or to Jerusalem to worship. I believe Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 refer to the assembled people of God, not a physical building.But we may have to agree to disagree about that.<>

Yes we disagree about the definition of the last days and the fact that the word "house" refers to people.

<James>"You may be able to reduce the violence in the area but you are not going to end it."<end James>
<>Again, I reject the fatalism of your comment here.<>

What you call fatalism I call reality. Is it fatalistic to say that one day I'm going to die if the Lord doesn't come back until then?

<>Peace has come to many parts of the world where it was once thought impossible. It's not any less possible in Israel-Palestine.<>

True but not in the Mideast, the center of the three great faiths of Abraham. Religious fervor has resulted in numerous conflicts there for the last two thousand years.

<>And your quote from Luke 12 is out of context; it doesn't refer to conflict between nations but the conflict inherent in the Gospel message, which occasionally has divided families and communities. That conflict arises from the fallen nature you refer to earlier.<>

I agree that this is what Jesus meant in this passage. I was illustrating the fact that accepting Jesus as your Savior can cause conflict. Just because the Bible declares "blessed are the peacemakers" does not mean God will guarantee peace between humans. There will always be conflict between people whether of the same faith, different faith, or no faith at all because of the fallen world we live in.

<>No, problems can't be fully solved in this age, but with God's Spirit, much can be done in that direction. The idea that there can't be peace in Israel-Palestine puts limits on God and what he can do.<>

I didn't say there couldn't be peace in the Mideast. I said it wouldn't come until Jesus comes back and sets up His earthly kingdom.

<>Peace<>

Ditto

<>Also, what distinguishes a radical-fundamentalist from other Muslim's?<>

Fair enough. I will answer this question first. Moderate Muslims may interpret the word Jihad to mean a personal struggle. Radical Muslims interpret it to mean a holy war against infidels. Moderate Muslims may not like the situation in Israel but will work (like Sadat) to find a peaceful coexistence with the Jews (of course Sadat was killed by radical Muslim members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad because of this). Radical Muslims will target civilians for terrorist acts and use their own citizens as human shields. In doing so they justify these acts by invoking their religious beliefs. On a relevant note, I read in the latest entry on the God's Politics blog that Jimmy Carter disagrees with people like myself who say there will never be true peace in Israel until the Messiah comes again. He also said, "George Mitchell is already under attack from some of the Israeli supporters in the country just for being, 'neutral' or 'balanced.' So that's what you have to do. You have to look at both sides and treat both sides equally. The peace process is one that is fully supported by a strong majority of Israelis and Palestinians. I'm talking about private citizens. They want peace and they're willing to withdraw from Palestinian territory in order to have peace. Everybody knows that. But there's a small minority that doesn't want to withdraw from Palestinian territories and they're the ones that are blocking peace so far." I find it illuminating that Jimmy Carter blames the Jewish settlers for the lack of peace in the Israel-Palestine situation yet he fails to mention the Muslim extremists as being part of the problem also. So much for "being, 'neutral' or 'balanced.'" and treating "both sides equally". Unless he is willing and able to address the Muslim extremist situation, that will remain the crux of the failure to make peace between Israel and Palestine.

<>Since I set this discussion off I will explain what's behind my "His solution?" question. I struggle with whether peace can be event initiated and subsequently enforced. Is this how you view personal peace with God? How might this influence your view of peace with others? One option implied in your "peace only when Jesus returns" model means the eradication of the opposition. How is this different from "radical Islam's" call to kill the infidels?<>

There are two underlying premises that are incontrovertible in the Bible. The first is found in the Book of Revelation, "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." (Revelation 16:7) God is a righteous judge. We may not always understand His ways but they are just and true. As God said, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9) God, who dwells in all dimensions, is omniscient and infinite. Humans, who dwell in four dimensions, are finite and limited in their thoughts. We will not understand God's ways until we are with Him in eternity. The second premise is found in Romans, "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and
another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:18-24) This last passage may seem harsh to us but when taken with the first premise we know that God is righteous and that everything He does is right. Our thoughts and ways are not His and so we must defer to Him lest we sit in judgment of God.

In an earlier post I quoted the prophecy in Isaiah, "2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:2-4) The respondent to this post interpreted this prophecy in a metaphorical sense. I take it in a literal sense. He agreed that we live in a fallen world (i.e. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). This means that we sinful humans are incapable of creating an everlasting peace on earth. We will always have conflicts because of our differences both petty and real. This prophecy declares "neither shall they learn war any more." The history of the human race is filled with wars to this present day. Unless our sinful natures are removed we will never be able to fulfill this prophecy of no more war. Thus, it will only be possible in the End-Times when Jesus comes again and therefore this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future.

Before Jesus sets up His earthly kingdom, He said, "21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:21-22) This was in response to His disciples' questions, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3) I won't take the time to list the prophecies that describe what this time of tribulation will be like. Suffice it to say that it will be horrible and unlike any other time in history. This will be a time of God's righteous judgment upon a rebellious world. At that time "He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

The Bible uses the phrase "rod of iron" four times. Three times it is associated directly with the Son of God, Jesus Christ:

"1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of
the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2)

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Revelation 12:5)

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15)

(Notice that God does have a fierce and wrathful aspect to His nature) So Jesus will rule His kingdom with a rod of iron. How He wields this rod of iron I cannot say. However, it is clear that He will tolerate no rebellion during this time. He will not let those who want to live in peace be disturbed by those who don't. He may judge them immediately and execute them. Remember, this is not eternity but what Christians such as
myself call the Millennium. This may make you uncomfortable but remember He is a true and righteous judge. For us to say otherwise is to elevate ourselves above God.

And His solution would be...?

<>And His solution would be...?<>

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:2-4)

[Sorry about the new thread but when I hit the reply button under your post it won't display a reply box. Any post above the "show more comments" link displays the reply box correctly. It says there is an error on the page and won't allow me to reply directly]

Beyond Gaza: An Abrahamic Peace is a nice and useful post. It looks that you are highly expert blogger. Your post is an excellent example of why I keep coming back to read your excellent quality content that is forever updated. Your all site is well managed and comprehensive.

Thank you
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Thank you for your help with the reply button.

<>Then your view of God differs greatly from mine. I don't believe God requires us to be fatalists, notwithstanding the reality of a fallen world.<>

I don't believe in fatalism either. Quite the contrary I know that Jesus Christ gives me life more abundantly and that refers to more than just earthly comforts. Paul said, "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee." (Titus 2:11-15) . I look forward to and hope for the "glorious appearing" of our Lord. However, we are to occupy until He comes and do good works and that includes peacemaking and spreading the gospel through word and deed.

<>It's a reality according to your opinion. I'm not sure I accept the truth of your "reality" regarding Muslims. How many Muslims do you know? I'm sure the Muslim students I have taught would have rejected your characteristic of their faith.<>

First of all, I did not say all Muslims subscribed to the concepts I mentioned. I don't know any Muslims. I used to work with one and he told me the Jews changed the wording of the Old Testament. I found this ironic since the last book of the Old Testament was written one thousand years before Muhammad was born. How many Muslim extremists do you know?

<>Furthermore, even if it is true, you ignore the possibility that God can work a change of heart.<>

Then changing their hearts is the solution to that problem. As I stated previously one can only know true peace when you make peace with God through Jesus Christ. But until the Muslims accept Jesus as their Savior they are going to keep following the tenets of their faith.

<>Where are you getting your information about Islam and Muslims?<>

Reading books and online sources.

<>But we are living in the "last days" right now--and have been since Pentecost: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh..." (Acts 2:16-17); "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (Hebrews 1:1-2). "It also declares that the Lord's house or Temple will be established on the earth."
Nothing in this passage, or in the parallel passage in Micah 4, requires us to believe that the "Lord's House" must be a physical structure. In fact, John 2:21-23 indicates that we no longer go up to the mountain or to Jerusalem to worship. I believe Isaiah 2:2-4 and Micah 4:1-3 refer to the assembled people of God, not a physical building.But we may have to agree to disagree about that.<>

Yes we disagree about the definition of the last days and the fact that the word "house" refers to people.

<James>"You may be able to reduce the violence in the area but you are not going to end it."<end James>
<>Again, I reject the fatalism of your comment here.<>

What you call fatalism I call reality. Is it fatalistic to say that one day I'm going to die if the Lord doesn't come back until then?

<>Peace has come to many parts of the world where it was once thought impossible. It's not any less possible in Israel-Palestine.<>

True but not in the Mideast, the center of the three great faiths of Abraham. Religious fervor has resulted in numerous conflicts there for the last two thousand years.

<>And your quote from Luke 12 is out of context; it doesn't refer to conflict between nations but the conflict inherent in the Gospel message, which occasionally has divided families and communities. That conflict arises from the fallen nature you refer to earlier.<>

I agree that this is what Jesus meant in this passage. I was illustrating the fact that accepting Jesus as your Savior can cause conflict. Just because the Bible declares "blessed are the peacemakers" does not mean God will guarantee peace between humans. There will always be conflict between people whether of the same faith, different faith, or no faith at all because of the fallen world we live in.

<>No, problems can't be fully solved in this age, but with God's Spirit, much can be done in that direction. The idea that there can't be peace in Israel-Palestine puts limits on God and what he can do.<>

I didn't say there couldn't be peace in the Mideast. I said it wouldn't come until Jesus comes back and sets up His earthly kingdom.

<>Peace<>

Ditto

Don and James:

Since I set this discussion off I will explain what's behind my "His solution?" question.
I struggle with whether peace can be event initiated and subsequently enforced. Is this how you view personal peace with God? How might this influence your view of peace with others? One option implied in your "peace only when Jesus returns" model means the eradication of the opposition. How is this different from "radical Islam's" call to kill the infidels? Also, what distinguishes a radical-fundamentalist from other Muslim's?

<>Also, what distinguishes a radical-fundamentalist from other Muslim's?<>

Fair enough. I will answer this question first. Moderate Muslims may interpret the word Jihad to mean a personal struggle. Radical Muslims interpret it to mean a holy war against infidels. Moderate Muslims may not like the situation in Israel but will work (like Sadat) to find a peaceful coexistence with the Jews (of course Sadat was killed by radical Muslim members of Egyptian Islamic Jihad because of this). Radical Muslims will target civilians for terrorist acts and use their own citizens as human shields. In doing so they justify these acts by invoking their religious beliefs. On a relevant note, I read in the latest entry on the God's Politics blog that Jimmy Carter disagrees with people like myself who say there will never be true peace in Israel until the Messiah comes again. He also said, "George Mitchell is already under attack from some of the Israeli supporters in the country just for being, 'neutral' or 'balanced.' So that's what you have to do. You have to look at both sides and treat both sides equally. The peace process is one that is fully supported by a strong majority of Israelis and Palestinians. I'm talking about private citizens. They want peace and they're willing to withdraw from Palestinian territory in order to have peace. Everybody knows that. But there's a small minority that doesn't want to withdraw from Palestinian territories and they're the ones that are blocking peace so far." I find it illuminating that Jimmy Carter blames the Jewish settlers for the lack of peace in the Israel-Palestine situation yet he fails to mention the Muslim extremists as being part of the problem also. So much for "being, 'neutral' or 'balanced.'" and treating "both sides equally". Unless he is willing and able to address the Muslim extremist situation, that will remain the crux of the failure to make peace between Israel and Palestine.

<>Since I set this discussion off I will explain what's behind my "His solution?" question. I struggle with whether peace can be event initiated and subsequently enforced. Is this how you view personal peace with God? How might this influence your view of peace with others? One option implied in your "peace only when Jesus returns" model means the eradication of the opposition. How is this different from "radical Islam's" call to kill the infidels?<>

There are two underlying premises that are incontrovertible in the Bible. The first is found in the Book of Revelation, "And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments." (Revelation 16:7) God is a righteous judge. We may not always understand His ways but they are just and true. As God said, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8-9) God, who dwells in all dimensions, is omniscient and infinite. Humans, who dwell in four dimensions, are finite and limited in their thoughts. We will not understand God's ways until we are with Him in eternity. The second premise is found in Romans, "So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me thus?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and
another for menial use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:18-24) This last passage may seem harsh to us but when taken with the first premise we know that God is righteous and that everything He does is right. Our thoughts and ways are not His and so we must defer to Him lest we sit in judgment of God.

In an earlier post I quoted the prophecy in Isaiah, "2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:2-4) The respondent to this post interpreted this prophecy in a metaphorical sense. I take it in a literal sense. He agreed that we live in a fallen world (i.e. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"). This means that we sinful humans are incapable of creating an everlasting peace on earth. We will always have conflicts because of our differences both petty and real. This prophecy declares "neither shall they learn war any more." The history of the human race is filled with wars to this present day. Unless our sinful natures are removed we will never be able to fulfill this prophecy of no more war. Thus, it will only be possible in the End-Times when Jesus comes again and therefore this prophecy is yet to be fulfilled in the future.

Before Jesus sets up His earthly kingdom, He said, "21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." (Matthew 24:21-22) This was in response to His disciples' questions, "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" (Matthew 24:3) I won't take the time to list the prophecies that describe what this time of tribulation will be like. Suffice it to say that it will be horrible and unlike any other time in history. This will be a time of God's righteous judgment upon a rebellious world. At that time "He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

The Bible uses the phrase "rod of iron" four times. Three times it is associated directly with the Son of God, Jesus Christ:

"1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of
the earth. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2)

"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." (Revelation 12:5)

"And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God." (Revelation 19:15)

(Notice that God does have a fierce and wrathful aspect to His nature) So Jesus will rule His kingdom with a rod of iron. How He wields this rod of iron I cannot say. However, it is clear that He will tolerate no rebellion during this time. He will not let those who want to live in peace be disturbed by those who don't. He may judge them immediately and execute them. Remember, this is not eternity but what Christians such as
myself call the Millennium. This may make you uncomfortable but remember He is a true and righteous judge. For us to say otherwise is to elevate ourselves above God.

people of GAza really needs supplies such as medicines and food hope Obama could make a solution with this