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Confession: 'Radicalism Often Turns People into Jerks Rather than Lovers'

Righteous anger, one of the best weapons in the satirist's arsenal, can eat me alive if I'm not careful. Jesus must look at some of my moves and shake his head. But then he takes me in his arms and loves me. Why can't I do likewise to those who let me down?

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As much as I want to be the humble tax collector, I often come off as the self-righteous, judgmental Pharisee. (See Luke 18:9-14). Even when I'm spot-on in my assessment of those whose missional myopia places self-appointed pastors/speakers/authors on a pedestal, my response at times is definitely not Christ-like. Time after time, I fail to put the Greatest Commandment into practice.

During one of my recent holy hissy fits, Mark Van Steenwyk's posting titled "A More Gracious Radicalism" graced my Google reader. Turns out I'm by no means the only one who struggles with righteous anger. As Mark writes that his wife noted:

something that needs to be addressed here and in all the various corners of the radical Christian world: radicalism often turns people into jerks rather than lovers.

He elaborates on this blunt admission of our failings:

When Christians, upon discovering the deficiencies of their traditions begin, in earnest, to tap back into the root of Jesus' provocative Kingdom message, they are often likely to become judgmental and angry towards their brothers and sisters in Christ than they are to weep for those brothers and sisters. They become increasingly aware of the failures of the Church, of the compromises (large and small) of their friends, and more tenacious in exposing falsehood wherever they find it.

He admits this may be painting with a broad brush but he paints a caricature that isn't a pretty sight.

The prize for biggest downer used to go to the hyper-Calvinists; now that prize is increasingly going to the would-be radicals. Some of the most divisive and harsh people I know are (ironically) committed to nonviolence. Some of the most unloving towards the Church are the very ones who stress again and again the need for the Church to embody Christ's love in the broken places. I don't say this to condemn, but to confess. I think I may have contributed to this grumpy trend.

To be fair, some of the most gracious, loving, and tender people I know are also radicals. It seems that the heavy business of following in the footsteps of Jesus lends one to extremes: either extreme sourness or extreme compassion.

So how do we move out of this missional muck? Here Mark offers some practical advice:

We must mourn the old world, the old ways, and its cycle of death

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by: markvans

02-27-2009 @ 4:43pm

In the quote to my original article, I use the word "pseudo-alterity". Alterity is the quality of being an "other." Pseudo alterity is what happens when someone tries to "other" themselves in a way that isn't real. It is what happens when someone claims the status of "other" for one's self as they, for example, attempt to achieve solidarity with a marginalized group in a way that is superficial or trite or inauthentic.

Another way that pseudo alterity happens is when someone considers themselves to be "othered" by the dominant group when, in reality, they are still members of the dominant group. This happens all the time among radicals who flee their middle class existence by donning the garb of radicalism and then quickly turn around to castigate the middle class. They are claiming for themselves some sort of new marginal identity when, in reality, they are still middle class.

If you want to read more about that, go here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/08/the-style...

by: BlueDeacon

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

We might be able to avoid these pitfalls if we first understood the ultimate aim of the Gospel as reconcilation; it's so easy to focus on whatever we believe is "right" that we forget the long-term goal. The Pharisees demonstrate that you can have you theological p's and q's minded and miss God entirely, and the secularization of the civil-rights movement is a sign that He can remove His hand if we get off-track.

by: letjusticerolldown

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

Don't worry about forgetting this lesson. It's one we relearn every few decades (or every few minutes when we pay attention). It may be alot like becoming really good at being humble.

The best answer I have come up for me so far is simply, "Seek first God's rule, " And then when I start explaining to myself what that means, I say "No! Seek first God's rule. That's it. Seek. Seek. Seek.

Thanks for the post

by: kevin47

02-27-2009 @ 11:47pm

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

If what you believe causes you to abandon humility, then you should evaluate what you believe.

by: markvans

02-28-2009 @ 2:17am

This all needs to be said, but it is easy to take this too far and deflate the sort of prophetic quality that we must foster in the shadow of Empire. A great response can be found here: http://poserorprophet.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/...

by: BlueDeacon

02-28-2009 @ 4:50am

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

Not necessarily -- in fact, people of that day looked up to the Pharisees (while secretly resenting them) because they wore their religion for all to see. Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went. His problem was that he missed the context.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 5:41am

"Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he
kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went"

You know, aside from the murders.

by: Minnesotan

02-28-2009 @ 5:09pm

This character defect of being a "prophetic jerk" is not limited ideologically. I have endured patronizing rants from anti-abortion activists and King James Only believes as well as from Obama supporters, antiwar folks, advocates for the poor and those concerned about global warming. I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism: I am better than you because I am more "enligthened" than you on abortion, poverty, war, KJV Bible reading, etc.

by: oharaville

03-06-2009 @ 5:18pm

Thanks for sharing this, Becky! Good call, Mark!

Let me add my confession to the mixture, that I too have been guilty of "psuedo-alterity," although I think that for most people it's less a function of outright posturing, and more a natural part of a spiritual progression that includes swings both in the direction of deconstruction and integration.

May we all find safe spaces to wig out and get bent while we re-calibrate the Gospel for our various contexts.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:19pm

"I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism:"

I think this gets at the core issue. If you are truly offering prophetic witness, then there is nothing wrong with being judgmental. The problem comes when people confuse espousing opinions for prophecy.

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition. Therefore, nobody who disagrees with you can be right. That why the broad application of prophecy simply doesn't work, in my view. If you are proven wrong, then you become a false prophet.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:34pm

When providing a link, unless it was requested, you should usually include a key excerpt. Since you have not, I will do so.

"Tell a parent that the McDonald's toy they gave to their child was made be other children in brutal working conditions and what will that parent say to you? Probably something like this: 'Hey, what are you, some kind of jerk?' Tell a friend that the blood of children is staining their favourite sneakers or brand of clothes, and you'll probably get the same reaction."

That probably depends on how willing said parent or friend is to tangle with you. If I were accosted by this fellow for buying a toy, I would take the time to ask if every single item they owned was certifiably blood-free. I would also ask if his desire to stem the tide of bloody children extended to protections for the unborn.

If the answer to either question were no, I would castigate him for his hypocrisy. If the answer were yes, I would probably give him a listen. As the conversation progressed, I'm pretty sure I'd be compelled to ask a blogger (by definition, someone with internet access) how he could use that blog to rail against those who benefit from elite structures.

But most people aren't like me, and would therefore dismiss him as a jerk, or maybe tell him to shave.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:36pm

Thing is, he had approval from the authorities to persecute Christians --after all, they were a threat to the "truth." And in fact he was able to do so legally. (He actually was credited was never credited with any murders; he simply approved of Stephen's.)

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:43pm

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition.

Then Jonah was a false prophet.

Anyway, that comment shows a misunderstanding of the concept of prophecy -- it's not about foretelling the future; most of the time it's "Unless this changes, this will happen" and thus should be delivered only in an attitude of humility. The true prophet's message is "I hope I'm wrong -- but I don't think I am." Besides, true prophets are few and far between and people often regard them as crazy, or worse. (Until decades later, when time shows that they were right.)

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 5:08pm

Pretty sure approving of murder is also a sin. He refers to himself as a murderer.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 6:45pm

This, however, was after the fact.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:14pm

Irrelevant, as you are wont to say. A sin is a sin whether you acknowledge it after the fact or before.

Paul was not a follower of God's will who just happened to be a major jerk about it. He zealously persecuted God and enjoyed admiration for his sin, just like the Pharisees. That was my point.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:30pm

Off topic, but we already have terms (e.g. false martyrdom) to describe this phenomenon. Why did you coin a different, more awkward term? I ask because this seems to be a trend in Christianity. "Framing narrative", meaning simply context, is my favorite.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 7:52pm

From Philippians 3:5 and 6:

"[C]ircumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal,
persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless." In other
words, believing he was doing God's will he felt he was doing God a
favor by trying to destroy the early church because he saw his purpose as
maintaining purity in Judaism. He wasn't so much a radical but a reactionary
-- similar to a number of folks who can't handle truth, so they try to
discount it.

But as I said, the Pharisees craved recognition for their "religiosity" and
were willing to split the community for that purpose. It's easy to see the
Pharisees' sin in hindsight, and Paul admitted his blindness in numerous
places -- and that's really Becky's point. In other words, it's not a matter
of what but why.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 10:50pm

That's great, but has nothing to do with what I am arguing.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 11:16pm

And your argument has little to do with the topic.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 11:32pm

Great, I'm glad we had this dialogue.

by: squeaky

03-01-2009 @ 11:49pm

Umm--why not?

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:01am

Because my original argument was that the pharisees were not spot-on in their assessments.

Had I stated that the pharisees were not religious, this thread of comments would have made sense.

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:36am

This was, really, only a monologue that I intruded on.

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:52am

Saw that quip coming from a mile away...

by: markvans

02-27-2009 @ 4:43pm

In the quote to my original article, I use the word "pseudo-alterity". Alterity is the quality of being an "other." Pseudo alterity is what happens when someone tries to "other" themselves in a way that isn't real. It is what happens when someone claims the status of "other" for one's self as they, for example, attempt to achieve solidarity with a marginalized group in a way that is superficial or trite or inauthentic.

Another way that pseudo alterity happens is when someone considers themselves to be "othered" by the dominant group when, in reality, they are still members of the dominant group. This happens all the time among radicals who flee their middle class existence by donning the garb of radicalism and then quickly turn around to castigate the middle class. They are claiming for themselves some sort of new marginal identity when, in reality, they are still middle class.

If you want to read more about that, go here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/08/the-style...

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:55am

Well, if the shoe fits ...

by: markvans

03-02-2009 @ 6:06pm

Wow, the comments are getting tiny.

by: oharaville

03-06-2009 @ 7:18pm

Thanks for sharing this, Becky! Good call, Mark!

Let me add my confession to the mixture, that I too have been guilty of "psuedo-alterity," although I think that for most people it's less a function of outright posturing, and more a natural part of a spiritual progression that includes swings both in the direction of deconstruction and integration.

May we all find safe spaces to wig out and get bent while we re-calibrate the Gospel for our various contexts.

by: squeaky

03-02-2009 @ 9:26pm

Even smaller now...

by: BlueDeacon

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

We might be able to avoid these pitfalls if we first understood the ultimate aim of the Gospel as reconcilation; it's so easy to focus on whatever we believe is "right" that we forget the long-term goal. The Pharisees demonstrate that you can have you theological p's and q's minded and miss God entirely, and the secularization of the civil-rights movement is a sign that He can remove His hand if we get off-track.

by: markvans

03-02-2009 @ 9:44pm

The term "false martyrdom" overlaps, but doesn't completely mean the same thing. The trend of coining new terms isn't just a Christian trend. It is a modern trend. And "framing narrative" means more than context. The issue isn't just a love of new words; an increasing complexity of shifting contexts, colliding systems of belief and thought, and a growing diversity of approaches to issues from a growing number of different disciplines (all seeking ways of being interdisciplinary) foster the coining of new phrases.

by: letjusticerolldown

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

Don't worry about forgetting this lesson. It's one we relearn every few decades (or every few minutes when we pay attention). It may be alot like becoming really good at being humble.

The best answer I have come up for me so far is simply, "Seek first God's rule, " And then when I start explaining to myself what that means, I say "No! Seek first God's rule. That's it. Seek. Seek. Seek.

Thanks for the post

by: kevin47

02-27-2009 @ 11:47pm

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

If what you believe causes you to abandon humility, then you should evaluate what you believe.

by: markvans

02-28-2009 @ 2:17am

This all needs to be said, but it is easy to take this too far and deflate the sort of prophetic quality that we must foster in the shadow of Empire. A great response can be found here: http://poserorprophet.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/...

by: BlueDeacon

02-28-2009 @ 4:50am

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

Not necessarily -- in fact, people of that day looked up to the Pharisees (while secretly resenting them) because they wore their religion for all to see. Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went. His problem was that he missed the context.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 5:41am

"Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he
kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went"

You know, aside from the murders.

by: Minnesotan

02-28-2009 @ 5:09pm

This character defect of being a "prophetic jerk" is not limited ideologically. I have endured patronizing rants from anti-abortion activists and King James Only believes as well as from Obama supporters, antiwar folks, advocates for the poor and those concerned about global warming. I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism: I am better than you because I am more "enligthened" than you on abortion, poverty, war, KJV Bible reading, etc.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:19pm

"I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism:"

I think this gets at the core issue. If you are truly offering prophetic witness, then there is nothing wrong with being judgmental. The problem comes when people confuse espousing opinions for prophecy.

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition. Therefore, nobody who disagrees with you can be right. That why the broad application of prophecy simply doesn't work, in my view. If you are proven wrong, then you become a false prophet.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:34pm

When providing a link, unless it was requested, you should usually include a key excerpt. Since you have not, I will do so.

"Tell a parent that the McDonald's toy they gave to their child was made be other children in brutal working conditions and what will that parent say to you? Probably something like this: 'Hey, what are you, some kind of jerk?' Tell a friend that the blood of children is staining their favourite sneakers or brand of clothes, and you'll probably get the same reaction."

That probably depends on how willing said parent or friend is to tangle with you. If I were accosted by this fellow for buying a toy, I would take the time to ask if every single item they owned was certifiably blood-free. I would also ask if his desire to stem the tide of bloody children extended to protections for the unborn.

If the answer to either question were no, I would castigate him for his hypocrisy. If the answer were yes, I would probably give him a listen. As the conversation progressed, I'm pretty sure I'd be compelled to ask a blogger (by definition, someone with internet access) how he could use that blog to rail against those who benefit from elite structures.

But most people aren't like me, and would therefore dismiss him as a jerk, or maybe tell him to shave.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:36pm

Thing is, he had approval from the authorities to persecute Christians --after all, they were a threat to the "truth." And in fact he was able to do so legally. (He actually was credited was never credited with any murders; he simply approved of Stephen's.)

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:43pm

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition.

Then Jonah was a false prophet.

Anyway, that comment shows a misunderstanding of the concept of prophecy -- it's not about foretelling the future; most of the time it's "Unless this changes, this will happen" and thus should be delivered only in an attitude of humility. The true prophet's message is "I hope I'm wrong -- but I don't think I am." Besides, true prophets are few and far between and people often regard them as crazy, or worse. (Until decades later, when time shows that they were right.)

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 5:08pm

Pretty sure approving of murder is also a sin. He refers to himself as a murderer.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 6:45pm

This, however, was after the fact.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:14pm

Irrelevant, as you are wont to say. A sin is a sin whether you acknowledge it after the fact or before.

Paul was not a follower of God's will who just happened to be a major jerk about it. He zealously persecuted God and enjoyed admiration for his sin, just like the Pharisees. That was my point.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:30pm

Off topic, but we already have terms (e.g. false martyrdom) to describe this phenomenon. Why did you coin a different, more awkward term? I ask because this seems to be a trend in Christianity. "Framing narrative", meaning simply context, is my favorite.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 7:52pm

From Philippians 3:5 and 6:

"[C]ircumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal,
persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless." In other
words, believing he was doing God's will he felt he was doing God a
favor by trying to destroy the early church because he saw his purpose as
maintaining purity in Judaism. He wasn't so much a radical but a reactionary
-- similar to a number of folks who can't handle truth, so they try to
discount it.

But as I said, the Pharisees craved recognition for their "religiosity" and
were willing to split the community for that purpose. It's easy to see the
Pharisees' sin in hindsight, and Paul admitted his blindness in numerous
places -- and that's really Becky's point. In other words, it's not a matter
of what but why.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 10:50pm

That's great, but has nothing to do with what I am arguing.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 11:16pm

And your argument has little to do with the topic.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 11:32pm

Great, I'm glad we had this dialogue.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: markvans

02-27-2009 @ 4:43pm

In the quote to my original article, I use the word "pseudo-alterity". Alterity is the quality of being an "other." Pseudo alterity is what happens when someone tries to "other" themselves in a way that isn't real. It is what happens when someone claims the status of "other" for one's self as they, for example, attempt to achieve solidarity with a marginalized group in a way that is superficial or trite or inauthentic.

Another way that pseudo alterity happens is when someone considers themselves to be "othered" by the dominant group when, in reality, they are still members of the dominant group. This happens all the time among radicals who flee their middle class existence by donning the garb of radicalism and then quickly turn around to castigate the middle class. They are claiming for themselves some sort of new marginal identity when, in reality, they are still middle class.

If you want to read more about that, go here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/08/the-style...

by: markvans

02-27-2009 @ 4:43pm

In the quote to my original article, I use the word "pseudo-alterity". Alterity is the quality of being an "other." Pseudo alterity is what happens when someone tries to "other" themselves in a way that isn't real. It is what happens when someone claims the status of "other" for one's self as they, for example, attempt to achieve solidarity with a marginalized group in a way that is superficial or trite or inauthentic.

Another way that pseudo alterity happens is when someone considers themselves to be "othered" by the dominant group when, in reality, they are still members of the dominant group. This happens all the time among radicals who flee their middle class existence by donning the garb of radicalism and then quickly turn around to castigate the middle class. They are claiming for themselves some sort of new marginal identity when, in reality, they are still middle class.

If you want to read more about that, go here: http://www.jesusmanifesto.com/2008/08/the-style...

by: BlueDeacon

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

We might be able to avoid these pitfalls if we first understood the ultimate aim of the Gospel as reconcilation; it's so easy to focus on whatever we believe is "right" that we forget the long-term goal. The Pharisees demonstrate that you can have you theological p's and q's minded and miss God entirely, and the secularization of the civil-rights movement is a sign that He can remove His hand if we get off-track.

by: BlueDeacon

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

We might be able to avoid these pitfalls if we first understood the ultimate aim of the Gospel as reconcilation; it's so easy to focus on whatever we believe is "right" that we forget the long-term goal. The Pharisees demonstrate that you can have you theological p's and q's minded and miss God entirely, and the secularization of the civil-rights movement is a sign that He can remove His hand if we get off-track.

by: letjusticerolldown

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

Don't worry about forgetting this lesson. It's one we relearn every few decades (or every few minutes when we pay attention). It may be alot like becoming really good at being humble.

The best answer I have come up for me so far is simply, "Seek first God's rule, " And then when I start explaining to myself what that means, I say "No! Seek first God's rule. That's it. Seek. Seek. Seek.

Thanks for the post

by: letjusticerolldown

02-27-2009 @ 10:14pm

Don't worry about forgetting this lesson. It's one we relearn every few decades (or every few minutes when we pay attention). It may be alot like becoming really good at being humble.

The best answer I have come up for me so far is simply, "Seek first God's rule, " And then when I start explaining to myself what that means, I say "No! Seek first God's rule. That's it. Seek. Seek. Seek.

Thanks for the post

by: kevin47

02-27-2009 @ 11:47pm

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

If what you believe causes you to abandon humility, then you should evaluate what you believe.

by: kevin47

02-27-2009 @ 11:47pm

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

If what you believe causes you to abandon humility, then you should evaluate what you believe.

by: markvans

02-28-2009 @ 2:17am

This all needs to be said, but it is easy to take this too far and deflate the sort of prophetic quality that we must foster in the shadow of Empire. A great response can be found here: http://poserorprophet.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/...

by: markvans

02-28-2009 @ 2:17am

This all needs to be said, but it is easy to take this too far and deflate the sort of prophetic quality that we must foster in the shadow of Empire. A great response can be found here: http://poserorprophet.wordpress.com/2009/02/22/...

by: BlueDeacon

02-28-2009 @ 4:50am

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

Not necessarily -- in fact, people of that day looked up to the Pharisees (while secretly resenting them) because they wore their religion for all to see. Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went. His problem was that he missed the context.

by: BlueDeacon

02-28-2009 @ 4:50am

If you are spot on in your assessment, then you are not like the Pharisees. If you read the Gospel texts, they were more than just curmudgeonly jerks. They hypocritically flaunted God's commands.

Not necessarily -- in fact, people of that day looked up to the Pharisees (while secretly resenting them) because they wore their religion for all to see. Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went. His problem was that he missed the context.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 5:41am

"Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he
kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went"

You know, aside from the murders.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 5:41am

"Besides, Paul was a Pharisee, and he'd be the first to tell you that he
kept the law perfectly as far as those traditions went"

You know, aside from the murders.

by: Minnesotan

02-28-2009 @ 5:09pm

This character defect of being a "prophetic jerk" is not limited ideologically. I have endured patronizing rants from anti-abortion activists and King James Only believes as well as from Obama supporters, antiwar folks, advocates for the poor and those concerned about global warming. I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism: I am better than you because I am more "enligthened" than you on abortion, poverty, war, KJV Bible reading, etc.

by: Minnesotan

02-28-2009 @ 5:09pm

This character defect of being a "prophetic jerk" is not limited ideologically. I have endured patronizing rants from anti-abortion activists and King James Only believes as well as from Obama supporters, antiwar folks, advocates for the poor and those concerned about global warming. I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism: I am better than you because I am more "enligthened" than you on abortion, poverty, war, KJV Bible reading, etc.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:19pm

"I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism:"

I think this gets at the core issue. If you are truly offering prophetic witness, then there is nothing wrong with being judgmental. The problem comes when people confuse espousing opinions for prophecy.

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition. Therefore, nobody who disagrees with you can be right. That why the broad application of prophecy simply doesn't work, in my view. If you are proven wrong, then you become a false prophet.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:19pm

"I sometimes wonder if this universal character flaw is pride rooted in a kind of gnosticism:"

I think this gets at the core issue. If you are truly offering prophetic witness, then there is nothing wrong with being judgmental. The problem comes when people confuse espousing opinions for prophecy.

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition. Therefore, nobody who disagrees with you can be right. That why the broad application of prophecy simply doesn't work, in my view. If you are proven wrong, then you become a false prophet.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:34pm

When providing a link, unless it was requested, you should usually include a key excerpt. Since you have not, I will do so.

"Tell a parent that the McDonald's toy they gave to their child was made be other children in brutal working conditions and what will that parent say to you? Probably something like this: 'Hey, what are you, some kind of jerk?' Tell a friend that the blood of children is staining their favourite sneakers or brand of clothes, and you'll probably get the same reaction."

That probably depends on how willing said parent or friend is to tangle with you. If I were accosted by this fellow for buying a toy, I would take the time to ask if every single item they owned was certifiably blood-free. I would also ask if his desire to stem the tide of bloody children extended to protections for the unborn.

If the answer to either question were no, I would castigate him for his hypocrisy. If the answer were yes, I would probably give him a listen. As the conversation progressed, I'm pretty sure I'd be compelled to ask a blogger (by definition, someone with internet access) how he could use that blog to rail against those who benefit from elite structures.

But most people aren't like me, and would therefore dismiss him as a jerk, or maybe tell him to shave.

by: kevin47

02-28-2009 @ 7:34pm

When providing a link, unless it was requested, you should usually include a key excerpt. Since you have not, I will do so.

"Tell a parent that the McDonald's toy they gave to their child was made be other children in brutal working conditions and what will that parent say to you? Probably something like this: 'Hey, what are you, some kind of jerk?' Tell a friend that the blood of children is staining their favourite sneakers or brand of clothes, and you'll probably get the same reaction."

That probably depends on how willing said parent or friend is to tangle with you. If I were accosted by this fellow for buying a toy, I would take the time to ask if every single item they owned was certifiably blood-free. I would also ask if his desire to stem the tide of bloody children extended to protections for the unborn.

If the answer to either question were no, I would castigate him for his hypocrisy. If the answer were yes, I would probably give him a listen. As the conversation progressed, I'm pretty sure I'd be compelled to ask a blogger (by definition, someone with internet access) how he could use that blog to rail against those who benefit from elite structures.

But most people aren't like me, and would therefore dismiss him as a jerk, or maybe tell him to shave.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:36pm

Thing is, he had approval from the authorities to persecute Christians --after all, they were a threat to the "truth." And in fact he was able to do so legally. (He actually was credited was never credited with any murders; he simply approved of Stephen's.)

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:36pm

Thing is, he had approval from the authorities to persecute Christians --after all, they were a threat to the "truth." And in fact he was able to do so legally. (He actually was credited was never credited with any murders; he simply approved of Stephen's.)

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:43pm

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition.

Then Jonah was a false prophet.

Anyway, that comment shows a misunderstanding of the concept of prophecy -- it's not about foretelling the future; most of the time it's "Unless this changes, this will happen" and thus should be delivered only in an attitude of humility. The true prophet's message is "I hope I'm wrong -- but I don't think I am." Besides, true prophets are few and far between and people often regard them as crazy, or worse. (Until decades later, when time shows that they were right.)

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 1:43pm

If you are a prophet, then you cannot be wrong, by definition.

Then Jonah was a false prophet.

Anyway, that comment shows a misunderstanding of the concept of prophecy -- it's not about foretelling the future; most of the time it's "Unless this changes, this will happen" and thus should be delivered only in an attitude of humility. The true prophet's message is "I hope I'm wrong -- but I don't think I am." Besides, true prophets are few and far between and people often regard them as crazy, or worse. (Until decades later, when time shows that they were right.)

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 5:08pm

Pretty sure approving of murder is also a sin. He refers to himself as a murderer.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 5:08pm

Pretty sure approving of murder is also a sin. He refers to himself as a murderer.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 6:45pm

This, however, was after the fact.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 6:45pm

This, however, was after the fact.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:14pm

Irrelevant, as you are wont to say. A sin is a sin whether you acknowledge it after the fact or before.

Paul was not a follower of God's will who just happened to be a major jerk about it. He zealously persecuted God and enjoyed admiration for his sin, just like the Pharisees. That was my point.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:14pm

Irrelevant, as you are wont to say. A sin is a sin whether you acknowledge it after the fact or before.

Paul was not a follower of God's will who just happened to be a major jerk about it. He zealously persecuted God and enjoyed admiration for his sin, just like the Pharisees. That was my point.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:30pm

Off topic, but we already have terms (e.g. false martyrdom) to describe this phenomenon. Why did you coin a different, more awkward term? I ask because this seems to be a trend in Christianity. "Framing narrative", meaning simply context, is my favorite.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 7:30pm

Off topic, but we already have terms (e.g. false martyrdom) to describe this phenomenon. Why did you coin a different, more awkward term? I ask because this seems to be a trend in Christianity. "Framing narrative", meaning simply context, is my favorite.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 7:52pm

From Philippians 3:5 and 6:

"[C]ircumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal,
persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless." In other
words, believing he was doing God's will he felt he was doing God a
favor by trying to destroy the early church because he saw his purpose as
maintaining purity in Judaism. He wasn't so much a radical but a reactionary
-- similar to a number of folks who can't handle truth, so they try to
discount it.

But as I said, the Pharisees craved recognition for their "religiosity" and
were willing to split the community for that purpose. It's easy to see the
Pharisees' sin in hindsight, and Paul admitted his blindness in numerous
places -- and that's really Becky's point. In other words, it's not a matter
of what but why.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 7:52pm

From Philippians 3:5 and 6:

"[C]ircumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of
Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal,
persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless." In other
words, believing he was doing God's will he felt he was doing God a
favor by trying to destroy the early church because he saw his purpose as
maintaining purity in Judaism. He wasn't so much a radical but a reactionary
-- similar to a number of folks who can't handle truth, so they try to
discount it.

But as I said, the Pharisees craved recognition for their "religiosity" and
were willing to split the community for that purpose. It's easy to see the
Pharisees' sin in hindsight, and Paul admitted his blindness in numerous
places -- and that's really Becky's point. In other words, it's not a matter
of what but why.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 10:50pm

That's great, but has nothing to do with what I am arguing.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 10:50pm

That's great, but has nothing to do with what I am arguing.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 11:16pm

And your argument has little to do with the topic.

by: BlueDeacon

03-01-2009 @ 11:16pm

And your argument has little to do with the topic.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 11:32pm

Great, I'm glad we had this dialogue.

by: kevin47

03-01-2009 @ 11:32pm

Great, I'm glad we had this dialogue.

by: squeaky

03-01-2009 @ 11:49pm

Umm--why not?

by: squeaky

03-01-2009 @ 11:49pm

Umm--why not?

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:01am

Because my original argument was that the pharisees were not spot-on in their assessments.

Had I stated that the pharisees were not religious, this thread of comments would have made sense.

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:01am

Because my original argument was that the pharisees were not spot-on in their assessments.

Had I stated that the pharisees were not religious, this thread of comments would have made sense.

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:36am

This was, really, only a monologue that I intruded on.

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:36am

This was, really, only a monologue that I intruded on.

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:52am

Saw that quip coming from a mile away...

by: kevin47

03-02-2009 @ 3:52am

Saw that quip coming from a mile away...

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:55am

Well, if the shoe fits ...

by: BlueDeacon

03-02-2009 @ 3:55am

Well, if the shoe fits ...