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The Collapse of Evangelicalism?

In the March 10 edition of The Christian Science Monitor, Michael Spencer predicts "the coming evangelical collapse." Much of his assessment of the white evangelical church in the United States is spot on. Far too many congregations have become consumers of Christian programming rather than followers of Jesus Christ. Many have been co-opted by the leaders of the so-called "culture wars," forfeiting the power of Jesus' gospel of love and grace for hate-filled attempts to protect and defend Judeo-Christian mores. Churches and Christians that have bought into this direction are withering away. Pruning is necessary.

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But in many circles, the evangelical church that I see is sprouting and blossoming. The picture of evangelicals often painted in media assessments is outdated and incomplete. While the critiques offered by Spencer are not wrong, God's spirit continues to allow healthy seeds to take root and grow both on the margins and in some of the largest churches in this nation. As I look at the landscape of the evangelical church, I am more hopeful today than at any point in my adult life.

While I don't have any hard data, I have seen a lot of anecdotal evidence of new fruit-bearing branches of renewal over the past few years:

1. What I witnessed at PAPAFEST 2006 in Tennessee (repeated in 2008 in Illinois). The gathering was filled with young people committed to not being conformed to the pattern of this world, but to being transformed by the renewing of their minds. The festival speaks to a larger renewal movement that includes, but is not limited to, what has been called "New Monasticism." Groups like Rutba House in Durham, North Carolina, the Simple Way in Philadelphia, and Vineyard Central in Cincinnati are committing to personal and social transformation rooted in Christ-inspired love for one another.

2. The emerging Faith & Justice Movements in Boston and New York City. Lisa Sharon Harper (NYC) and Rachel Anderson (Boston) have been overseeing networks of hundreds of Christians (including many evangelicals) in these two cities who are coming together to both grow in Christ and further justice in their communities. These excellent organizations are training and inspiring Christians in their cities to be agents of transformation that will make a difference for the marginalized in their communities and around the world.

3. The so-called "Mega-Church" is getting involved in working for justice. Community Christian Church in the Chicago area announced they were giving away their entire offering last Sunday to support efforts for evangelism and justice in Chicago and around the world. They ended up collecting and giving away over $400,000. The congregation, which began in Naperville, Illinois, is also working in nearby East Aurora, and not primarily through charity. They are investing time, energy, and resources to apply the principles of John Perkins' Christian Community Development model to be a part of this largely immigrant community. They are but one example of a mega-church that is growing rapidly in what it means to "do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with God."

4. Many evangelicals are being reshaped by the best of the mainline, Catholic, and Orthodox traditions. They are learning from the vibrant justice traditions that have been few and far between for evangelicals over the last 50 years. They are also being reshaped by the rich and deep spirituality of the Orthodox and Catholic traditions. Henri Nouwen and Thomas Merton are being read alongside Rick Warren and Brian McLaren.

A few weeks ago, I joined a group of pastors and Christian leaders in Cincinnati who are working to covenant together in our commitment to bring the Good News of Jesus to our city in fresh and powerful ways in the years to come. This diverse gathering of evangelical leaders (Caucasian & African-American) never once talked of culture wars. Instead we talked of prayer, of humility, of confronting our city's history of racism, and of biblical righteousness and justice.

Next month, thousands of Christ-followers, including many evangelicals will come to Washington, D.C., for Sojourners' Mobilization to End Poverty. This faith-based gathering will demonstrate some powerful undercurrents, movements of God's Spirit, to reshape not only the white evangelical church, but also the broader church of Jesus Christ in this country and around the world.

Perhaps Michael Spencer is right-the evangelical church as commonly imagined by pundits is about to collapse, but a church that is more biblically-grounded and Spirit-led is emerging, and I'm excited to see and taste some of its first fruits!

Troy Jackson is senior pastor of University Christian Church in Cincinnati, a graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary, and earned his Ph.D. in United States history from the University of Kentucky. He is author of Becoming King: Martin Luther King Jr. and the Making of a National Leader (Civil Rights and the Struggle for Black Equality in the Twentieth Century) and a participant in Sojourners' Windchangers grassroots organizing project in Ohio.

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by: kevin47

03-17-2009 @ 10:00pm

There was much more to Spencer's critique than evangelicals having embraced the culture wars.

by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 1:34am

I have varied responses to Spencer's different points but in general think he is coming at the subject from too narrow of an angle. Troy's post widens the review of what is going on.

Missing from both pieces is a consideration of the social/global change that will transpire. The comments very much consider the future of Evangelicalism in a future world that is like the current world. That is not how it will be.

Further both bypass the little detail of defining who they are talking about.

One possible change is that the concept, "Evangelicalism," becomes void of any significant meaning.

On a popular level, the concept is already without any significant meaning. It is used so many different ways including/excluding populations of Christians that have no particular identification with each other.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:12am

If what Troy Jackson described in his post is actually occurring, then I am encouraged. Other than the examples that he cites, I see little evidence of it. The electronic church is alive and well and continues to bilk its followers of billions of dollars.

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by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 2:05pm

I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??

Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)?

Do you consider yourself to be a follower?

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 2:17pm

Well, I see it every week in my church, which became involved in such issues before I started attending. Last month I began attending a nascent "Human Life Matters" meeting, and our first project is to raise money for folks in the Third World to dig wells for water.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 2:37pm

"I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??"

No. It is not Best Buy. I consider the electronic church as any organization that devotes a significant portion of its air time soliciting funds to sustain its operation and which preys on the elderly and shut-ins for its support.

"Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)? "

Angley, Bynum, Copeland, Dollar, Eikerenkoetter (Rev Ike), Falwell, Grant, Hagee, Hinn, Kuhlman, Levitt, Meyer, Nielson, Osteen, Parsley, Robison, Tilton, Van Impe, White.(Yes, I know that some of the above have passed away.)

"Do you consider yourself to be a follower?" No.

by: reverenddave

03-18-2009 @ 4:17pm

Good article, and I agree with its sentiment. However, as a medieval historian who studies both western Europe and Byzantium, I think we here in the Christian Social Justice movement need to stop praising the so-called "vibrant social justice traditions" of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The Catholics Church's care of the poor was an afterthought of its oppression of them by the forced collection of tithes. This is not to mention other Catholic "traditions" like the Crusade and the Inquisition, which together are responsible for millions of deaths and racial oppression. If that's too ancient history for you, then let us recall the church-sanctioned rape-and-pillage/slash-and-burn of Mexico and South America, or the brilliant inaction of the Church during WWII and the holocaust.

The Byzantines themselves routinely persecuted Jews and non-Orthodox, that is, Arians, Nestorians, and Monophosytes, for simply not conforming to the "official" faith of the Emperor. This was the case until the fall of Constantinople.

The support of slavery and opposition to the Civil Rights Movement are similar stains on some of the protestant traditions, but let's call it like it is. One or two "saints" here or there that preached against poverty or opposed slavery doesn't redeem a tradition in which thousands of cathedrals and monasteries themselves held slaves and oppressed their poor.

Catholics and Orthodox must approach this Christian Social Justice movement with conviction and humility just as Evangelicals are expected to, perhaps even to a greater degree, for their crimes against humanity predate protestantism by a millenium. You cannot claim the good parts of a tradition and deny the bad. That's what we're trying to undo here in American history.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:06pm

Wow!

The social teaching of the Catholic Church provided a strong base for who I am now, my goals, and my service to our Lord.

The Church openly admits the wrongs done in the past and does not attempt to whitewash them.

I think you need to get your ideas about the Church out of the past and take a look at current Church teaching on social justice. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available online at www.usccb.org.

Frankly, I find your comments offensive and irrelevant to the topic at hand, but my wife tells me I'm too sensitive to anti-Catholicism.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:09pm

Excellent!

Both diarrhea, one of the leading causes of death of children under 5 years of age, and trachoma, one the the leading causes of blindness in developing countries, can be prevented by access to clean water.

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 5:26pm

I agree with neuro_nurse -- while such things may have been done in the past, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have apparently repented.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 6:26pm

This only re-affirms my observation that evoking "Social Justice" it's just a way of telling other Christians what they need to do better. The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which), but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 7:18pm

"The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which)"

Kev, if I didn't know you better...

by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 8:57pm

"...but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end."

Kevin, you need to apply these words to yourself, especially when you speak ignorantly about "heretical teaching."

I'm not Roman Catholic, but, quite simply, you are completely wrong on that one.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 9:01pm

If I'm wrong, then why are you not Roman Catholic? Where do you depart from the teachings of the church, and why does that not constitute heresy?

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by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 9:16pm

Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy? If that's the case, then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy, since they hold to the "memorial view" of the Lord's Supper and deny that Christ is really present in the bread and the wine. Therefore, since Baptists depart from the teachings of my church, they are heretics.

Kevin, that doesn't make any sense! By the same measure, Baptists would be justified in calling my church heretical, since we do believe in the presence of Christ, body and blood, in the elements of the sacrament (Baptists deny sacraments, too, for that matter!). If we all adopted this view of heresy, then anyone who doesn't believe exactly the way we believe must believe in heresy.

I have doctrinal differences with the Roman Catholic church--chiefly, the doctrine of papal supremacy. The fact that they uphold papal supremacy doesn't make them heretics. It means we have doctrinal differences.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:06pm

You don't like the word "heretics?" How about heathen?

If you don't belong to my church, you must fit into one of those two categories.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 11:55pm

"Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy?"

No. I say what I mean. I was asking you a question.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:33am

I hope you're joking.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:38am

I believe I did answer your question.

Heresy means denial of core Christian doctrine. An example would be denial that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine. Heresy isn't mere doctrinal difference.

I don't have to be Roman Catholic in order to believe that your calling some of their teaching "heretical" is wrong.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:54am

"I believe I did answer your question."

There it is, wedged between layers of responses to arguments I did not make.

Papal supremacy directly contradicts scripture. You have to rely on the tradition of the Catholic church. If the bible is where we get orthodoxy, then Papal supremacy is heretical, by definition.

Most of the prominent stances on the sacraments are rooted in scripture. However, if you want to argue that one can be saved by virtue of taking the bread and wine, that would be heretical.

Some people (mostly Calvinists) take this too far and declare every stance with which they disagree is heretical. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as heresy.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 1:02am

Those are your opinions, Kevin. The Christian church doesn't base heresy on someone's opinions.

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:49am

Van Impe's dead? See Ezekiel 34:8

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:51am

Yeah, well, the Pope wears red shoes! Put that in yer teleological pipe and smoke it.

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

Question: Can a person be saved in or through the Catholic or Orthodox churches? Because of my Calvinist upbringing I admit I was skeptical -- until I attended a charismatic conference at the local Catholic university where the charismatic movement started. You may think that one church teaches error, but that doesn't mean that God can't move there. And while I do have problems with some Catholic doctrine, I think they have the social justice thing right.

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

"then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy"

brethren, need we any more cause to compel us to roast this brother's buttocks at the stake along with his Blue Jackets' jersey? the problem with the North American church today is that we don't have enough heretic burnings

by: neuro_nurse

03-19-2009 @ 1:57am

Yeah, and he uses those red shoes to kick some serious butt - so you'd better watch yours!

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:58am

BD - you may be interested to check out my (evangelical) seminary classmate David Currie's book on this = Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic (Ignatius Press, c. 1996)

by: neuro_nurse

03-19-2009 @ 2:00am

I don't know Don, I thought Kevin was joking!

by: neuro_nurse

03-19-2009 @ 2:05am

Apostolic succession is based on scripture - straight out of the red letters.

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 2:07am

Actually, there are others as well. It's just that, even though I have a definite theological view, I can fellowship with anyone who believes in Jesus. That's the bottom line.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 2:14am

No. It bases it on scripture, and the interpretation of scripture over time by thousands of believers (not me).

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 2:09am

"And while I do have problems with some Catholic doctrine, I think they have the social justice thing right."

This was the gist of my original comment. I think that Christ can move in the Catholic church insofar as the church orients itself around him. Virtually every Catholic church teaches in error by any biblical standard, but so too do many other churches and denominations.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 2:21am

Infallibility of any human directly contradicts scripture, pope, Mary or otherwise. It is flatly heretical to Christian teaching. That question of apostolic succession is more complicated, since it means different things to different people.

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 2:27am

Well, what about your church -- does it have perfect doctrine? And even if it did, does it turn out perfect disciples? Bet not. Anyway, based on your previous posts, you believe that Catholic social justice teaching is itself heretical -- for ideological, not theological, reasons.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 3:05am

"Well, what about your church -- does it have perfect doctrine? "

There is no such thing as perfect doctrine.

"you believe that Catholic social justice teaching is itself heretical -- for ideological, not theological, reasons."

Huh? Ignoring the category error, can you point me to an example of this in my writing?

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 3:31am

There is no such thing as perfect doctrine.

Then what are you complaining about?

Huh? Ignoring the category error, can you point me to an example of this in my writing?

Point it out? That's all you do on this blog (especially since Catholic social justice teaching leans politically liberal, and we know you feel about that).

by: neuro_nurse

03-19-2009 @ 4:06am

Dude please!

The Pope is not impeccable

by: neuro_nurse

03-19-2009 @ 4:13am

"Virtually every Catholic church teaches in error by any biblical standard"

That is a matter of interpretation.

As far as the Church is concerned, we're right and everyone else is wrong.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 10:50am

They're still based on opinions. Heresy doesn't consist of difference of opinion.

Let's just take one example--the one I brought up. You wrote:
"Papal supremacy directly contradicts scripture."

According to Catholic interpretation of Scripture (especially Peter's confession in Matthew 16), papal supremacy is quite compatible. Just because others read the same Scripture and arrive at a different conclusion doesn't mean the Catholic church is guilty of heresy. You are misusing the word. We're talking about doctrinal differences here, not heresy.

And papal infallibility (not the same thing as papal supremacy, by the way) is not rooted in some notion of human infallibility, a notion that Catholics would also reject. Rather, it's rooted in the very biblical belief that Christ gave the church the Holy Spirit to lead and guides the church into all truth. Therefore, when the church speaks out of its Christ-given authority, the church, and the pope as the representative of Christ to the church, cannot speak in error, simply because the Holy Spirit cannot err. And as neuro_nurse points out below, the pope last invoked papal infallibility almost sixty years ago--and that was only the second time ever.

Again, you are free to disagree with that understanding of the authority Christ gave the Christian church and how it plays out in the real world. But it is wrong to call that belief heresy. Again, we're talking about doctrinal differences here, not heretical beliefs.

by: SisterMarie

03-19-2009 @ 12:21pm

"I hope you're joking."

I just can't get away with anything on this site. You guys are on to me.

(But I did enjoy reading the "How many angels can fit on the tip of a needle" discussion below.)

And we wonder why Christians blow each other up in Northern Ireland; why Israelis hate Arabs and vice-versa.

"And we can be certain that some happy day, someone will set the powder off, and we will all be blown away.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:29pm

Your evidence does not support your assertion, though the invocation you reference was in defense of a teaching that is, itself, heretical.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:24pm

"Then what are you complaining about?"

Heresy, which is not the same as error.

"Point it out? That's all you do on this blog (especially since
Catholic social justice teaching leans politically liberal, and we know
you feel about that)."

Well, in the face of this overwhelming case, I'll respond.

First of all, the Catholic teaching on social justice varies depending on the Catholic. Second, to the degree that Catholics call for governmental intervention, they do so to address all manner of social justice issues, including abortion. If Sojourners were nearly as consistent as the Catholic church on these issues, I would have more respect for the organization.

Third, I have no problem with people being left leaning. I simply disagree with their politics. This has absolutely nothing to do with heresy.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:41pm

By your definition of opinion and doctrinal difference, there can be no heresy. If the aggregated interpretation of councils and scholars yields no weight, then there is no reason to believe the Bible is true. If I interpret the commandment not to kill as an admonishment to collect baby porcupines, I am embracing a heretical notion.

To say that someone cannot err because they are speaking from the holy spirit is heretical. You cannot be inerrant sometimes, and in error other times. That is sheer invention. This is why modern Catholics run away from the concept. Well, that, and because it's kinda crazy.

Papal supremacy has, historically, been predicated on the infallibility of the pope. But yes, the trajectory of Catholic teaching has been that popes have toggled between fallible and infallible. This one is fallible, I think, is the consensus, but supremacy cannot be taken independently of infallibility.

If it could, it still contradicts Paul's teaching on the role of leaders within the church, not to mention the appointing of twelves apostles who were to go forth and make disciples.

And would you care to defend the elevation of Mary to the status of some sort of pseudo-deity?

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by: kevin47

03-17-2009 @ 10:00pm

There was much more to Spencer's critique than evangelicals having embraced the culture wars.

by: kevin47

03-17-2009 @ 10:00pm

There was much more to Spencer's critique than evangelicals having embraced the culture wars.

by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 1:34am

I have varied responses to Spencer's different points but in general think he is coming at the subject from too narrow of an angle. Troy's post widens the review of what is going on.

Missing from both pieces is a consideration of the social/global change that will transpire. The comments very much consider the future of Evangelicalism in a future world that is like the current world. That is not how it will be.

Further both bypass the little detail of defining who they are talking about.

One possible change is that the concept, "Evangelicalism," becomes void of any significant meaning.

On a popular level, the concept is already without any significant meaning. It is used so many different ways including/excluding populations of Christians that have no particular identification with each other.

by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 1:34am

I have varied responses to Spencer's different points but in general think he is coming at the subject from too narrow of an angle. Troy's post widens the review of what is going on.

Missing from both pieces is a consideration of the social/global change that will transpire. The comments very much consider the future of Evangelicalism in a future world that is like the current world. That is not how it will be.

Further both bypass the little detail of defining who they are talking about.

One possible change is that the concept, "Evangelicalism," becomes void of any significant meaning.

On a popular level, the concept is already without any significant meaning. It is used so many different ways including/excluding populations of Christians that have no particular identification with each other.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:12am

If what Troy Jackson described in his post is actually occurring, then I am encouraged. Other than the examples that he cites, I see little evidence of it. The electronic church is alive and well and continues to bilk its followers of billions of dollars.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:12am

If what Troy Jackson described in his post is actually occurring, then I am encouraged. Other than the examples that he cites, I see little evidence of it. The electronic church is alive and well and continues to bilk its followers of billions of dollars.

by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 2:05pm

I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??

Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)?

Do you consider yourself to be a follower?

by: letjusticerolldown

03-18-2009 @ 2:05pm

I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??

Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)?

Do you consider yourself to be a follower?

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 2:17pm

Well, I see it every week in my church, which became involved in such issues before I started attending. Last month I began attending a nascent "Human Life Matters" meeting, and our first project is to raise money for folks in the Third World to dig wells for water.

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 2:17pm

Well, I see it every week in my church, which became involved in such issues before I started attending. Last month I began attending a nascent "Human Life Matters" meeting, and our first project is to raise money for folks in the Third World to dig wells for water.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 2:37pm

"I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??"

No. It is not Best Buy. I consider the electronic church as any organization that devotes a significant portion of its air time soliciting funds to sustain its operation and which preys on the elderly and shut-ins for its support.

"Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)? "

Angley, Bynum, Copeland, Dollar, Eikerenkoetter (Rev Ike), Falwell, Grant, Hagee, Hinn, Kuhlman, Levitt, Meyer, Nielson, Osteen, Parsley, Robison, Tilton, Van Impe, White.(Yes, I know that some of the above have passed away.)

"Do you consider yourself to be a follower?" No.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 2:37pm

"I have never met the 'electronic church.' Is that Best Buy??"

No. It is not Best Buy. I consider the electronic church as any organization that devotes a significant portion of its air time soliciting funds to sustain its operation and which preys on the elderly and shut-ins for its support.

"Who do you consider to be bilking its followers (your top 3)? "

Angley, Bynum, Copeland, Dollar, Eikerenkoetter (Rev Ike), Falwell, Grant, Hagee, Hinn, Kuhlman, Levitt, Meyer, Nielson, Osteen, Parsley, Robison, Tilton, Van Impe, White.(Yes, I know that some of the above have passed away.)

"Do you consider yourself to be a follower?" No.

by: reverenddave

03-18-2009 @ 4:17pm

Good article, and I agree with its sentiment. However, as a medieval historian who studies both western Europe and Byzantium, I think we here in the Christian Social Justice movement need to stop praising the so-called "vibrant social justice traditions" of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The Catholics Church's care of the poor was an afterthought of its oppression of them by the forced collection of tithes. This is not to mention other Catholic "traditions" like the Crusade and the Inquisition, which together are responsible for millions of deaths and racial oppression. If that's too ancient history for you, then let us recall the church-sanctioned rape-and-pillage/slash-and-burn of Mexico and South America, or the brilliant inaction of the Church during WWII and the holocaust.

The Byzantines themselves routinely persecuted Jews and non-Orthodox, that is, Arians, Nestorians, and Monophosytes, for simply not conforming to the "official" faith of the Emperor. This was the case until the fall of Constantinople.

The support of slavery and opposition to the Civil Rights Movement are similar stains on some of the protestant traditions, but let's call it like it is. One or two "saints" here or there that preached against poverty or opposed slavery doesn't redeem a tradition in which thousands of cathedrals and monasteries themselves held slaves and oppressed their poor.

Catholics and Orthodox must approach this Christian Social Justice movement with conviction and humility just as Evangelicals are expected to, perhaps even to a greater degree, for their crimes against humanity predate protestantism by a millenium. You cannot claim the good parts of a tradition and deny the bad. That's what we're trying to undo here in American history.

by: reverenddave

03-18-2009 @ 4:17pm

Good article, and I agree with its sentiment. However, as a medieval historian who studies both western Europe and Byzantium, I think we here in the Christian Social Justice movement need to stop praising the so-called "vibrant social justice traditions" of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. The Catholics Church's care of the poor was an afterthought of its oppression of them by the forced collection of tithes. This is not to mention other Catholic "traditions" like the Crusade and the Inquisition, which together are responsible for millions of deaths and racial oppression. If that's too ancient history for you, then let us recall the church-sanctioned rape-and-pillage/slash-and-burn of Mexico and South America, or the brilliant inaction of the Church during WWII and the holocaust.

The Byzantines themselves routinely persecuted Jews and non-Orthodox, that is, Arians, Nestorians, and Monophosytes, for simply not conforming to the "official" faith of the Emperor. This was the case until the fall of Constantinople.

The support of slavery and opposition to the Civil Rights Movement are similar stains on some of the protestant traditions, but let's call it like it is. One or two "saints" here or there that preached against poverty or opposed slavery doesn't redeem a tradition in which thousands of cathedrals and monasteries themselves held slaves and oppressed their poor.

Catholics and Orthodox must approach this Christian Social Justice movement with conviction and humility just as Evangelicals are expected to, perhaps even to a greater degree, for their crimes against humanity predate protestantism by a millenium. You cannot claim the good parts of a tradition and deny the bad. That's what we're trying to undo here in American history.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:06pm

Wow!

The social teaching of the Catholic Church provided a strong base for who I am now, my goals, and my service to our Lord.

The Church openly admits the wrongs done in the past and does not attempt to whitewash them.

I think you need to get your ideas about the Church out of the past and take a look at current Church teaching on social justice. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available online at www.usccb.org.

Frankly, I find your comments offensive and irrelevant to the topic at hand, but my wife tells me I'm too sensitive to anti-Catholicism.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:06pm

Wow!

The social teaching of the Catholic Church provided a strong base for who I am now, my goals, and my service to our Lord.

The Church openly admits the wrongs done in the past and does not attempt to whitewash them.

I think you need to get your ideas about the Church out of the past and take a look at current Church teaching on social justice. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available online at www.usccb.org.

Frankly, I find your comments offensive and irrelevant to the topic at hand, but my wife tells me I'm too sensitive to anti-Catholicism.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:09pm

Excellent!

Both diarrhea, one of the leading causes of death of children under 5 years of age, and trachoma, one the the leading causes of blindness in developing countries, can be prevented by access to clean water.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 5:09pm

Excellent!

Both diarrhea, one of the leading causes of death of children under 5 years of age, and trachoma, one the the leading causes of blindness in developing countries, can be prevented by access to clean water.

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 5:26pm

I agree with neuro_nurse -- while such things may have been done in the past, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have apparently repented.

by: BlueDeacon

03-18-2009 @ 5:26pm

I agree with neuro_nurse -- while such things may have been done in the past, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have apparently repented.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 6:26pm

This only re-affirms my observation that evoking "Social Justice" it's just a way of telling other Christians what they need to do better. The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which), but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 6:26pm

This only re-affirms my observation that evoking "Social Justice" it's just a way of telling other Christians what they need to do better. The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which), but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end.

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 7:18pm

"The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which)"

Kev, if I didn't know you better...

by: neuro_nurse

03-18-2009 @ 7:18pm

"The Catholic church has its problems (heretical teaching not least of which)"

Kev, if I didn't know you better...

by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 8:57pm

"...but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end."

Kevin, you need to apply these words to yourself, especially when you speak ignorantly about "heretical teaching."

I'm not Roman Catholic, but, quite simply, you are completely wrong on that one.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 8:57pm

"...but this blame assignment game is fruitful to no meaningful end."

Kevin, you need to apply these words to yourself, especially when you speak ignorantly about "heretical teaching."

I'm not Roman Catholic, but, quite simply, you are completely wrong on that one.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 9:01pm

If I'm wrong, then why are you not Roman Catholic? Where do you depart from the teachings of the church, and why does that not constitute heresy?

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 9:01pm

If I'm wrong, then why are you not Roman Catholic? Where do you depart from the teachings of the church, and why does that not constitute heresy?

by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 9:16pm

Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy? If that's the case, then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy, since they hold to the "memorial view" of the Lord's Supper and deny that Christ is really present in the bread and the wine. Therefore, since Baptists depart from the teachings of my church, they are heretics.

Kevin, that doesn't make any sense! By the same measure, Baptists would be justified in calling my church heretical, since we do believe in the presence of Christ, body and blood, in the elements of the sacrament (Baptists deny sacraments, too, for that matter!). If we all adopted this view of heresy, then anyone who doesn't believe exactly the way we believe must believe in heresy.

I have doctrinal differences with the Roman Catholic church--chiefly, the doctrine of papal supremacy. The fact that they uphold papal supremacy doesn't make them heretics. It means we have doctrinal differences.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-18-2009 @ 9:16pm

Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy? If that's the case, then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy, since they hold to the "memorial view" of the Lord's Supper and deny that Christ is really present in the bread and the wine. Therefore, since Baptists depart from the teachings of my church, they are heretics.

Kevin, that doesn't make any sense! By the same measure, Baptists would be justified in calling my church heretical, since we do believe in the presence of Christ, body and blood, in the elements of the sacrament (Baptists deny sacraments, too, for that matter!). If we all adopted this view of heresy, then anyone who doesn't believe exactly the way we believe must believe in heresy.

I have doctrinal differences with the Roman Catholic church--chiefly, the doctrine of papal supremacy. The fact that they uphold papal supremacy doesn't make them heretics. It means we have doctrinal differences.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:06pm

You don't like the word "heretics?" How about heathen?

If you don't belong to my church, you must fit into one of those two categories.

by: SisterMarie

03-18-2009 @ 11:06pm

You don't like the word "heretics?" How about heathen?

If you don't belong to my church, you must fit into one of those two categories.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 11:55pm

"Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy?"

No. I say what I mean. I was asking you a question.

by: kevin47

03-18-2009 @ 11:55pm

"Let me make sure I understand you. You are equating doctrinal differences with heresy?"

No. I say what I mean. I was asking you a question.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:33am

I hope you're joking.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:33am

I hope you're joking.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:38am

I believe I did answer your question.

Heresy means denial of core Christian doctrine. An example would be denial that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine. Heresy isn't mere doctrinal difference.

I don't have to be Roman Catholic in order to believe that your calling some of their teaching "heretical" is wrong.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 12:38am

I believe I did answer your question.

Heresy means denial of core Christian doctrine. An example would be denial that Jesus Christ is both fully human and fully divine. Heresy isn't mere doctrinal difference.

I don't have to be Roman Catholic in order to believe that your calling some of their teaching "heretical" is wrong.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:54am

"I believe I did answer your question."

There it is, wedged between layers of responses to arguments I did not make.

Papal supremacy directly contradicts scripture. You have to rely on the tradition of the Catholic church. If the bible is where we get orthodoxy, then Papal supremacy is heretical, by definition.

Most of the prominent stances on the sacraments are rooted in scripture. However, if you want to argue that one can be saved by virtue of taking the bread and wine, that would be heretical.

Some people (mostly Calvinists) take this too far and declare every stance with which they disagree is heretical. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as heresy.

by: kevin47

03-19-2009 @ 12:54am

"I believe I did answer your question."

There it is, wedged between layers of responses to arguments I did not make.

Papal supremacy directly contradicts scripture. You have to rely on the tradition of the Catholic church. If the bible is where we get orthodoxy, then Papal supremacy is heretical, by definition.

Most of the prominent stances on the sacraments are rooted in scripture. However, if you want to argue that one can be saved by virtue of taking the bread and wine, that would be heretical.

Some people (mostly Calvinists) take this too far and declare every stance with which they disagree is heretical. That doesn't mean there is no such thing as heresy.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 1:02am

Those are your opinions, Kevin. The Christian church doesn't base heresy on someone's opinions.

by: BuckeyeDon

03-19-2009 @ 1:02am

Those are your opinions, Kevin. The Christian church doesn't base heresy on someone's opinions.

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:49am

Van Impe's dead? See Ezekiel 34:8

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:49am

Van Impe's dead? See Ezekiel 34:8

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:51am

Yeah, well, the Pope wears red shoes! Put that in yer teleological pipe and smoke it.

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:51am

Yeah, well, the Pope wears red shoes! Put that in yer teleological pipe and smoke it.

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

Question: Can a person be saved in or through the Catholic or Orthodox churches? Because of my Calvinist upbringing I admit I was skeptical -- until I attended a charismatic conference at the local Catholic university where the charismatic movement started. You may think that one church teaches error, but that doesn't mean that God can't move there. And while I do have problems with some Catholic doctrine, I think they have the social justice thing right.

by: BlueDeacon

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

Question: Can a person be saved in or through the Catholic or Orthodox churches? Because of my Calvinist upbringing I admit I was skeptical -- until I attended a charismatic conference at the local Catholic university where the charismatic movement started. You may think that one church teaches error, but that doesn't mean that God can't move there. And while I do have problems with some Catholic doctrine, I think they have the social justice thing right.

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

"then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy"

brethren, need we any more cause to compel us to roast this brother's buttocks at the stake along with his Blue Jackets' jersey? the problem with the North American church today is that we don't have enough heretic burnings

by: canucklehead

03-19-2009 @ 1:56am

"then I would have to regard all Baptists as teaching heresy"

brethren, need we any more cause to compel us to roast this brother's buttocks at the stake along with his Blue Jackets' jersey? the problem with the North American church today is that we don't have enough heretic burnings