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A Good Story: 'I'm Going to Kill You'

I often tell people not to ask me for statistics because in this work all the statistics are bad. Ask me for stories instead, I say, because even in the worst of times I always have a good story. Whether it is one of my own or comes from someone else doesn't really matter to me anymore. What matters is that it rings true. Like this one I picked up on a visit to Philadelphia last week, which was first told to psychologist Jack Kornfield by the director of a nearby rehabilitation program for violent juvenile offenders:

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One 14-year-old boy in the program had shot and killed an innocent teenager to prove himself to his gang. At the trial, the victim's mother sat impassively silent until the end, when the youth was convicted of the killing. After the verdict was announced, she stood up slowly and stared directly at him and stated, "I'm going to kill you." Then the youth was taken away to serve several years in the juvenile facility.

After the first half-year the mother of the slain child went to visit his killer. He had been living on the streets before the killing, and she was the only visitor (in jail) he'd had. For a time they talked, and when she left she gave him some money for cigarettes. Then she started step-by-step to visit him more regularly, bringing food and small gifts.

Near the end of his three-year sentence, she asked him what he would be doing when he got out. He was confused and very uncertain, so she offered to help set him up with a job at a friend's company. Then she inquired about where he would live, and since he had no family to return to, she offered him temporary use of the spare room in her home. For eight months he lived there, ate her food, and worked at the job.

Then one evening she called him into the living room to talk. She sat down opposite him and waited. Then she started, "Do you remember in the courtroom when I said I was going to kill you?" "I sure do," he replied. "I'll never forget that moment." "Well, I did it," she went on. "I did not want the boy who could kill my son for no reason to remain alive on this earth. I wanted him to die. That's why I started to visit you and bring you things. That's why I got you the job and let you live here in my house. That's how I set about changing you. And that old boy, he's gone. So now I want to ask you, since my son is gone, and that killer is gone, if you'll stay here. I've got room and I'd like to adopt you if you let me." And she became the mother he never had.

Honestly, for a man like me, in a place like this, a story like that is more precious than any amount of money or any amount of praise.

Lately I've been asked how long I can relate to such badly broken people in this particular way, and the truth is that I don't know. However long it is, I think, will be determined less by the number of healed lives I see, and more by my ability to sense the depth of the compassion and forgiveness that is trying to heal them. Today, with that good story in my heart, it feels like I may last a while longer than it felt like before I heard it. I hope the same is true of you.

Bart CampoloBart Campolo is a veteran urban minister and activist who speaks, writes, and blogs about grace, faith, loving relationships, and social justice. Bart is the leader of The Walnut Hills Fellowship in inner-city Cincinnati. He is also founder of Mission Year, which recruits committed young adults to live and work among the poor in inner-city neighborhoods across the U.S., and executive director of EAPE, which develops and supports innovative, cost-effective mission projects around the world.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: squeaky

04-16-2009 @ 2:07pm

I know--that's why I made the last point in my last paragraph.

Nevertheless, this was a moving story, and the very first poster (nuclearferret), rather than commenting that it was a moving story and perhaps even encouraging Bart in his work, apparently felt the need to question its validity. Sometimes we can cling to our insistence for truth to the detriment of others. As this doesn't have anything to do with asking for money, I see little value in doing that in this particular instance.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-16-2009 @ 3:21pm

I think stories are very important. If I told you the "story of my day" it would have some semblance of reality to it--but more importantly it would reflect my perspective on my experience and the world around me this day. In ministry (or any other part of life) we develop our stories. I think how they connect and communicate our perspective--and how they communicate what actually happened are both very important.

There are many "stories" about the US intervention in Iraq. In a sense, hearing them all helps develop a richer perspective on the realities. However, it makes a great deal of difference what is true on the ground. We may have different views about Iran's involvement and different stories. But it also makes a difference whether/how Iran is involved. It makes a difference whether there really are WMD's.

Because of the 'distance' of much of Evangelicalism to much of urban America--it makes this topic ripe for varied, competing, and unhelplful storylines. There are many assumptions about race, culture, economics, cities, crime, violence, welfare, guns, policing, familiy-breakdown, promiscuity, etc. etc.

Why do we refer to alot of modern myths as 'urban legends'??

I tell persons wrestling with living/working/ministering in certain urban core neighborhoods that if they cannot see their community, their place, and their presence as essentially positive they should not engage. They likely do not have the grace to serve the King in that place.

I understand the wear and tear. I recall living behind a duplex on a block where I had witnessed multiple dead bodies, and trying to figure out how to alter the course of a property (and tenants) that appeared to have a destiny of death. I awoke in the middle of the night to fire trucks surrounding the property--flames pouring out of the roof and windows. I wearily went over to the property and counted nine bodies spread out around the base of the property with rescue personnel frantically trying to save life. And in the depth of the pit in the heart which can feel so empty in such moments, asking if the Gospel speaks.

But one's hope does not arise out of telling stories (and I am not making a judgement about Bart's story because I have no way of knowing. In prior comments I was just explaining why most stories like this, I listen to, and just allow them to be. But for reasons explained I tend not to pass them on); it comes out of seeing what is really there and seeing God's activity in what is really there; and embracing all that is good.

Otherwise our activity becomes geared at advancing our story--and we lose our responsibility and accountability to make a real difference in concrete realities. I fear most lives and most churches and most ministries are more engulfed in their own stories than they are in advancing the Kingdom in the concrete realities of our lives, families and communities.

by: Lord_Voldemort

04-16-2009 @ 5:30pm

FWIW -- I did a quick search on Google and the furthest back I can trace this story was a book by the Buddhist author Jack Kornfield titled "The Art of Forgiveness, Lovingkindness, and Peace". I can't say for sure where Kornfield got the story, but that's the place to look.

LV

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:33pm

The story provided above is a wonderful example of reconciliation and healing. IF it is true. If it isn't, it is a nice story. Nothing wrong with a nice story, but it is not an example of reconciliation, it is an example of someone imagining an example.

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:34pm

One is a fraud, and one is doing the work. Not a hard decision.

by: Liadan

04-17-2009 @ 1:19am

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: Anothernonymous

04-17-2009 @ 12:50am

- And Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying:

- A mother had a son who was killed by bandits. One of the bandits was captured and sent to prison. There the mother of the boy he killed sought him out. Seeing that he had no-one else, she brought him gifts and remained with him during his time of greatest need. When the bandit was released from prison, the mother took him in as her own son.

- Her neighbors rebuked her, saying: "What have you done, treating your son's killer as though he were your own? Truly, if he had killed our son, we would bear hatred for him within our hearts."

- The mother replied: "Then your hatred would become your son. Truly, you would take hatred into your heart until it consumed you. I have taken love into my heart, and it has consumed my hatred."

- Which did the will of God: the woman or those who rebuked her? He who has ears, let him hear.

Just a reminder that I'm still lurking. The parables of Jesus ring true to me.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: Br3n

04-16-2009 @ 11:53pm

Immediately questioning whether or not the story is true (or presumably, whether or not it REALLY happened) makes us blind to the over-riding question (for me) which is: what can I learn from this story? There is real teaching about love here, even if I never know the specific name for the woman and the boy.

by: Liadan

04-17-2009 @ 1:19am

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: Anothernonymous

04-17-2009 @ 12:50am

- And Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying:

- A mother had a son who was killed by bandits. One of the bandits was captured and sent to prison. There the mother of the boy he killed sought him out. Seeing that he had no-one else, she brought him gifts and remained with him during his time of greatest need. When the bandit was released from prison, the mother took him in as her own son.

- Her neighbors rebuked her, saying: "What have you done, treating your son's killer as though he were your own? Truly, if he had killed our son, we would bear hatred for him within our hearts."

- The mother replied: "Then your hatred would become your son. Truly, you would take hatred into your heart until it consumed you. I have taken love into my heart, and it has consumed my hatred."

- Which did the will of God: the woman or those who rebuked her? He who has ears, let him hear.

Just a reminder that I'm still lurking. The parables of Jesus ring true to me.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: Br3n

04-16-2009 @ 11:53pm

Immediately questioning whether or not the story is true (or presumably, whether or not it REALLY happened) makes us blind to the over-riding question (for me) which is: what can I learn from this story? There is real teaching about love here, even if I never know the specific name for the woman and the boy.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: nuclearferret

04-15-2009 @ 4:27pm

"Rings true" or really IS true?

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: SisterMarie

04-15-2009 @ 4:28pm

In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians. After reading this story, there is no doubt in my mind which group that you and others who daily labor to minister to the least of these are in.

by: Liadan

04-16-2009 @ 11:19pm

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

That's a beautiful and amazing story. Thanks, Bart.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

What do you mean?

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 6:32pm

"In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians"

Of course, I got in trouble for saying the same thing, only in a different way. I guess it depends on the who, not the what. Any response, squeaky?

Apparently, that's the only way one can be a Christian. I'd love to see Sojo write about ways that the pro-life movement is reducing abortions through counselling, adoption and a variety of other caring and loving ways. It flies beneath the radar screen of the mainstream media and the religious left.

I know, I know, I'm setting myself up. Let the potshots begin.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 7:07pm

I tried to explain my position to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand or accept it as valid.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 7:48pm

I love the story.

Let's follow the story's path--back.

Bart Campolo relayed the story to us--having inherited his father's rather rich capacity to weave stories.

He heard the story from someone. It could have been from the psychologist; or there could have been intermediary storytellers that relayed it to him.

The psychologist indicates it was related to him by the director of an agency. The director of the agency may or may not have observed the story unfold. The director certainly did not observe all the encounters over three years. The director may have had a source. Or it could have been related through multiple staff or other parties.

The very shortest path was from mother, to Director, to psychologist, to Bart, to us. We are at least four steps removed. It is very reasonable to expect we might be more like 8-10 steps removed. Possibly more. The chances of a twisted story is far more than likely.

I have been around urban ministry storytellers long enough to carry a healthy dose of skepticism. An agency I worked for had a good reporting discipline of weekly writing about 'what really happened.' Meaning just that. No spin. What really is happening?

An acquaintance with a ministry to adjudicated teens in New York City will not take them to churches to testify. Not because their testimonies are not powerful--but because of the capacity to tell stories beyond what really happened.

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 8:22pm

I and a colleague teach 27 5th grade students from a low-income area of an upper Midwest city. My heart breaks for many of them. A whole bunch of them have no male adults in their lives, or the ones they have are no role models. Moms are working hard, or in some cases alcoholics. They come to school with a whole bunch of baggage. It's a road to eventual destruction. The pundits will argue whether it's because of racism and poverty, or because of bad choices. I know which side Sojo comes down on. It's too bad that the dialogue can't include both sides of the issue. Many of the so-called dads have moved on to father other children with different women, and it's an endless cycle.

The church can make a difference, which is why I believe it's as much personal as societal sin. Christ changes lives. It can lead people to repentence. We will not have true transformation until both the Left and the Right stop their bickering, put their heads together, and come up with better solutions. The above story is of course inspirational, but it would be even more beautiful to see if it never reaches that point. I think Obama is on the right track when he talks about personal responsibility; the problem is those on the Left with a political agenda who don't even want that term being mentioned. They're primarily White Liberals who wield lots of power in Washington and Hollywood. Don't think so? Show me otherwise.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 9:22pm

Reminds me of a discussion in a Bible study I was in last year. We were studying a book by Crossan, a scholar whose scholarly abilities I respect and have learned from, but many of whose conclusions I disagree with.

His argument (in a nutshell) is that the resurrection is a myth. But his concept of myth is larger than most people's--he doesn't consider the term to be negative, nor does he see what he considers myth as lesser than truth. From what I understand of his argument, it is the power of the story where the truth lies.

So whereas many people consider myth to equate with non-truth, he considers myths truth if they reflect deeper truths, and thus seems to view them as just as truthful as if they actually occurred. So, even though many of the events in Christ's life he views as myth, they apparently don't lose their power just because he doesn't believe they happened. They still reflect the deeper truth that he takes from the stories (Whereas I can understand his point, I nevertheless vehemently disagree with him on what events he considers myth).

But the question is--if the story Bart tells didn't happen as related, does it make it lesser? Or is there a truth in the story that exists even if the story is a myth? Certainly, it seems Bart needed to hear this encouraging story. Is he less encouraged if it didn't really happen like that?

And I also can't help but wonder to what ends we might express doubts about the story's validity. Isn't the important point that Bart, who works in the trenches surrounded by hopeless people and has expressed deep levels of discouragement on this site in the past, was encouraged by the story? Isn't it more important that a brother in Christ is encouraged than it is for us to determine whether or not the story is really true?

I should add, those aren't necessarily rhetorical questions. The last paragraph in your post gives me great pause.

by: JamesM

04-15-2009 @ 10:02pm

No, you're not setting yourself up. What is you say is largely true. But it is irrelevant to Bart Campolo's post and you seem to want to impose your view of how SOJO should see things instead of letting it speak for itself. Maybe another blog that expounds on things the way you see them would be more appropriate? You might want to consider that instead of being frustrated all the time with this blog.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: nuclearferret

04-15-2009 @ 4:27pm

"Rings true" or really IS true?

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: 1Grace

04-15-2009 @ 11:19pm

Ando I often think we need a Revival in a hugh proportion for the things you are speaking to are to happen. I enjoy your perspective . What I enjoyed about the story was it challenges our hear , and to have the compacity for that much forgiveness obviously Christ has to be the center of our life.

by: SisterMarie

04-15-2009 @ 4:28pm

In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians. After reading this story, there is no doubt in my mind which group that you and others who daily labor to minister to the least of these are in.

by: Liadan

04-16-2009 @ 11:19pm

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

That's a beautiful and amazing story. Thanks, Bart.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 11:33pm

If you went to a fundraiser and two ministries presented moving stories of redemption and transformation and both asked you for financial support. You knew one was telling stories that happened. The other told stories to express a message of hope and encouragement about things that did not happen.

Which ministry would you support?

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

What do you mean?

by: canucklehead

04-16-2009 @ 12:03am

mmmm, I feel a dissertation coming on = "The Role of the Redactor in Shaping the Myths Arising From Modern Urban Ministry"

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 6:32pm

"In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians"

Of course, I got in trouble for saying the same thing, only in a different way. I guess it depends on the who, not the what. Any response, squeaky?

Apparently, that's the only way one can be a Christian. I'd love to see Sojo write about ways that the pro-life movement is reducing abortions through counselling, adoption and a variety of other caring and loving ways. It flies beneath the radar screen of the mainstream media and the religious left.

I know, I know, I'm setting myself up. Let the potshots begin.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 7:07pm

I tried to explain my position to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand or accept it as valid.

by: squeaky

04-16-2009 @ 2:07pm

I know--that's why I made the last point in my last paragraph.

Nevertheless, this was a moving story, and the very first poster (nuclearferret), rather than commenting that it was a moving story and perhaps even encouraging Bart in his work, apparently felt the need to question its validity. Sometimes we can cling to our insistence for truth to the detriment of others. As this doesn't have anything to do with asking for money, I see little value in doing that in this particular instance.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 7:48pm

I love the story.

Let's follow the story's path--back.

Bart Campolo relayed the story to us--having inherited his father's rather rich capacity to weave stories.

He heard the story from someone. It could have been from the psychologist; or there could have been intermediary storytellers that relayed it to him.

The psychologist indicates it was related to him by the director of an agency. The director of the agency may or may not have observed the story unfold. The director certainly did not observe all the encounters over three years. The director may have had a source. Or it could have been related through multiple staff or other parties.

The very shortest path was from mother, to Director, to psychologist, to Bart, to us. We are at least four steps removed. It is very reasonable to expect we might be more like 8-10 steps removed. Possibly more. The chances of a twisted story is far more than likely.

I have been around urban ministry storytellers long enough to carry a healthy dose of skepticism. An agency I worked for had a good reporting discipline of weekly writing about 'what really happened.' Meaning just that. No spin. What really is happening?

An acquaintance with a ministry to adjudicated teens in New York City will not take them to churches to testify. Not because their testimonies are not powerful--but because of the capacity to tell stories beyond what really happened.

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 8:22pm

I and a colleague teach 27 5th grade students from a low-income area of an upper Midwest city. My heart breaks for many of them. A whole bunch of them have no male adults in their lives, or the ones they have are no role models. Moms are working hard, or in some cases alcoholics. They come to school with a whole bunch of baggage. It's a road to eventual destruction. The pundits will argue whether it's because of racism and poverty, or because of bad choices. I know which side Sojo comes down on. It's too bad that the dialogue can't include both sides of the issue. Many of the so-called dads have moved on to father other children with different women, and it's an endless cycle.

The church can make a difference, which is why I believe it's as much personal as societal sin. Christ changes lives. It can lead people to repentence. We will not have true transformation until both the Left and the Right stop their bickering, put their heads together, and come up with better solutions. The above story is of course inspirational, but it would be even more beautiful to see if it never reaches that point. I think Obama is on the right track when he talks about personal responsibility; the problem is those on the Left with a political agenda who don't even want that term being mentioned. They're primarily White Liberals who wield lots of power in Washington and Hollywood. Don't think so? Show me otherwise.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 9:22pm

Reminds me of a discussion in a Bible study I was in last year. We were studying a book by Crossan, a scholar whose scholarly abilities I respect and have learned from, but many of whose conclusions I disagree with.

His argument (in a nutshell) is that the resurrection is a myth. But his concept of myth is larger than most people's--he doesn't consider the term to be negative, nor does he see what he considers myth as lesser than truth. From what I understand of his argument, it is the power of the story where the truth lies.

So whereas many people consider myth to equate with non-truth, he considers myths truth if they reflect deeper truths, and thus seems to view them as just as truthful as if they actually occurred. So, even though many of the events in Christ's life he views as myth, they apparently don't lose their power just because he doesn't believe they happened. They still reflect the deeper truth that he takes from the stories (Whereas I can understand his point, I nevertheless vehemently disagree with him on what events he considers myth).

But the question is--if the story Bart tells didn't happen as related, does it make it lesser? Or is there a truth in the story that exists even if the story is a myth? Certainly, it seems Bart needed to hear this encouraging story. Is he less encouraged if it didn't really happen like that?

And I also can't help but wonder to what ends we might express doubts about the story's validity. Isn't the important point that Bart, who works in the trenches surrounded by hopeless people and has expressed deep levels of discouragement on this site in the past, was encouraged by the story? Isn't it more important that a brother in Christ is encouraged than it is for us to determine whether or not the story is really true?

I should add, those aren't necessarily rhetorical questions. The last paragraph in your post gives me great pause.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-16-2009 @ 3:21pm

I think stories are very important. If I told you the "story of my day" it would have some semblance of reality to it--but more importantly it would reflect my perspective on my experience and the world around me this day. In ministry (or any other part of life) we develop our stories. I think how they connect and communicate our perspective--and how they communicate what actually happened are both very important.

There are many "stories" about the US intervention in Iraq. In a sense, hearing them all helps develop a richer perspective on the realities. However, it makes a great deal of difference what is true on the ground. We may have different views about Iran's involvement and different stories. But it also makes a difference whether/how Iran is involved. It makes a difference whether there really are WMD's.

Because of the 'distance' of much of Evangelicalism to much of urban America--it makes this topic ripe for varied, competing, and unhelplful storylines. There are many assumptions about race, culture, economics, cities, crime, violence, welfare, guns, policing, familiy-breakdown, promiscuity, etc. etc.

Why do we refer to alot of modern myths as 'urban legends'??

I tell persons wrestling with living/working/ministering in certain urban core neighborhoods that if they cannot see their community, their place, and their presence as essentially positive they should not engage. They likely do not have the grace to serve the King in that place.

I understand the wear and tear. I recall living behind a duplex on a block where I had witnessed multiple dead bodies, and trying to figure out how to alter the course of a property (and tenants) that appeared to have a destiny of death. I awoke in the middle of the night to fire trucks surrounding the property--flames pouring out of the roof and windows. I wearily went over to the property and counted nine bodies spread out around the base of the property with rescue personnel frantically trying to save life. And in the depth of the pit in the heart which can feel so empty in such moments, asking if the Gospel speaks.

But one's hope does not arise out of telling stories (and I am not making a judgement about Bart's story because I have no way of knowing. In prior comments I was just explaining why most stories like this, I listen to, and just allow them to be. But for reasons explained I tend not to pass them on); it comes out of seeing what is really there and seeing God's activity in what is really there; and embracing all that is good.

Otherwise our activity becomes geared at advancing our story--and we lose our responsibility and accountability to make a real difference in concrete realities. I fear most lives and most churches and most ministries are more engulfed in their own stories than they are in advancing the Kingdom in the concrete realities of our lives, families and communities.

by: JamesM

04-15-2009 @ 10:02pm

No, you're not setting yourself up. What is you say is largely true. But it is irrelevant to Bart Campolo's post and you seem to want to impose your view of how SOJO should see things instead of letting it speak for itself. Maybe another blog that expounds on things the way you see them would be more appropriate? You might want to consider that instead of being frustrated all the time with this blog.

by: 1Grace

04-15-2009 @ 11:19pm

Ando I often think we need a Revival in a hugh proportion for the things you are speaking to are to happen. I enjoy your perspective . What I enjoyed about the story was it challenges our hear , and to have the compacity for that much forgiveness obviously Christ has to be the center of our life.

by: Lord_Voldemort

04-16-2009 @ 5:30pm

FWIW -- I did a quick search on Google and the furthest back I can trace this story was a book by the Buddhist author Jack Kornfield titled "The Art of Forgiveness, Lovingkindness, and Peace". I can't say for sure where Kornfield got the story, but that's the place to look.

LV

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:33pm

The story provided above is a wonderful example of reconciliation and healing. IF it is true. If it isn't, it is a nice story. Nothing wrong with a nice story, but it is not an example of reconciliation, it is an example of someone imagining an example.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 11:33pm

If you went to a fundraiser and two ministries presented moving stories of redemption and transformation and both asked you for financial support. You knew one was telling stories that happened. The other told stories to express a message of hope and encouragement about things that did not happen.

Which ministry would you support?

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: nuclearferret

04-15-2009 @ 4:27pm

"Rings true" or really IS true?

by: nuclearferret

04-15-2009 @ 4:27pm

"Rings true" or really IS true?

by: SisterMarie

04-15-2009 @ 4:28pm

In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians. After reading this story, there is no doubt in my mind which group that you and others who daily labor to minister to the least of these are in.

by: SisterMarie

04-15-2009 @ 4:28pm

In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians. After reading this story, there is no doubt in my mind which group that you and others who daily labor to minister to the least of these are in.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

That's a beautiful and amazing story. Thanks, Bart.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

That's a beautiful and amazing story. Thanks, Bart.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

What do you mean?

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 5:05pm

What do you mean?

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 6:32pm

"In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians"

Of course, I got in trouble for saying the same thing, only in a different way. I guess it depends on the who, not the what. Any response, squeaky?

Apparently, that's the only way one can be a Christian. I'd love to see Sojo write about ways that the pro-life movement is reducing abortions through counselling, adoption and a variety of other caring and loving ways. It flies beneath the radar screen of the mainstream media and the religious left.

I know, I know, I'm setting myself up. Let the potshots begin.

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 6:32pm

"In this world, there are Christians, and there are people who call themselves Christians"

Of course, I got in trouble for saying the same thing, only in a different way. I guess it depends on the who, not the what. Any response, squeaky?

Apparently, that's the only way one can be a Christian. I'd love to see Sojo write about ways that the pro-life movement is reducing abortions through counselling, adoption and a variety of other caring and loving ways. It flies beneath the radar screen of the mainstream media and the religious left.

I know, I know, I'm setting myself up. Let the potshots begin.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 7:07pm

I tried to explain my position to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand or accept it as valid.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 7:07pm

I tried to explain my position to you. I'm sorry you didn't understand or accept it as valid.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 7:48pm

I love the story.

Let's follow the story's path--back.

Bart Campolo relayed the story to us--having inherited his father's rather rich capacity to weave stories.

He heard the story from someone. It could have been from the psychologist; or there could have been intermediary storytellers that relayed it to him.

The psychologist indicates it was related to him by the director of an agency. The director of the agency may or may not have observed the story unfold. The director certainly did not observe all the encounters over three years. The director may have had a source. Or it could have been related through multiple staff or other parties.

The very shortest path was from mother, to Director, to psychologist, to Bart, to us. We are at least four steps removed. It is very reasonable to expect we might be more like 8-10 steps removed. Possibly more. The chances of a twisted story is far more than likely.

I have been around urban ministry storytellers long enough to carry a healthy dose of skepticism. An agency I worked for had a good reporting discipline of weekly writing about 'what really happened.' Meaning just that. No spin. What really is happening?

An acquaintance with a ministry to adjudicated teens in New York City will not take them to churches to testify. Not because their testimonies are not powerful--but because of the capacity to tell stories beyond what really happened.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 7:48pm

I love the story.

Let's follow the story's path--back.

Bart Campolo relayed the story to us--having inherited his father's rather rich capacity to weave stories.

He heard the story from someone. It could have been from the psychologist; or there could have been intermediary storytellers that relayed it to him.

The psychologist indicates it was related to him by the director of an agency. The director of the agency may or may not have observed the story unfold. The director certainly did not observe all the encounters over three years. The director may have had a source. Or it could have been related through multiple staff or other parties.

The very shortest path was from mother, to Director, to psychologist, to Bart, to us. We are at least four steps removed. It is very reasonable to expect we might be more like 8-10 steps removed. Possibly more. The chances of a twisted story is far more than likely.

I have been around urban ministry storytellers long enough to carry a healthy dose of skepticism. An agency I worked for had a good reporting discipline of weekly writing about 'what really happened.' Meaning just that. No spin. What really is happening?

An acquaintance with a ministry to adjudicated teens in New York City will not take them to churches to testify. Not because their testimonies are not powerful--but because of the capacity to tell stories beyond what really happened.

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 8:22pm

I and a colleague teach 27 5th grade students from a low-income area of an upper Midwest city. My heart breaks for many of them. A whole bunch of them have no male adults in their lives, or the ones they have are no role models. Moms are working hard, or in some cases alcoholics. They come to school with a whole bunch of baggage. It's a road to eventual destruction. The pundits will argue whether it's because of racism and poverty, or because of bad choices. I know which side Sojo comes down on. It's too bad that the dialogue can't include both sides of the issue. Many of the so-called dads have moved on to father other children with different women, and it's an endless cycle.

The church can make a difference, which is why I believe it's as much personal as societal sin. Christ changes lives. It can lead people to repentence. We will not have true transformation until both the Left and the Right stop their bickering, put their heads together, and come up with better solutions. The above story is of course inspirational, but it would be even more beautiful to see if it never reaches that point. I think Obama is on the right track when he talks about personal responsibility; the problem is those on the Left with a political agenda who don't even want that term being mentioned. They're primarily White Liberals who wield lots of power in Washington and Hollywood. Don't think so? Show me otherwise.

by: ando

04-15-2009 @ 8:22pm

I and a colleague teach 27 5th grade students from a low-income area of an upper Midwest city. My heart breaks for many of them. A whole bunch of them have no male adults in their lives, or the ones they have are no role models. Moms are working hard, or in some cases alcoholics. They come to school with a whole bunch of baggage. It's a road to eventual destruction. The pundits will argue whether it's because of racism and poverty, or because of bad choices. I know which side Sojo comes down on. It's too bad that the dialogue can't include both sides of the issue. Many of the so-called dads have moved on to father other children with different women, and it's an endless cycle.

The church can make a difference, which is why I believe it's as much personal as societal sin. Christ changes lives. It can lead people to repentence. We will not have true transformation until both the Left and the Right stop their bickering, put their heads together, and come up with better solutions. The above story is of course inspirational, but it would be even more beautiful to see if it never reaches that point. I think Obama is on the right track when he talks about personal responsibility; the problem is those on the Left with a political agenda who don't even want that term being mentioned. They're primarily White Liberals who wield lots of power in Washington and Hollywood. Don't think so? Show me otherwise.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 9:22pm

Reminds me of a discussion in a Bible study I was in last year. We were studying a book by Crossan, a scholar whose scholarly abilities I respect and have learned from, but many of whose conclusions I disagree with.

His argument (in a nutshell) is that the resurrection is a myth. But his concept of myth is larger than most people's--he doesn't consider the term to be negative, nor does he see what he considers myth as lesser than truth. From what I understand of his argument, it is the power of the story where the truth lies.

So whereas many people consider myth to equate with non-truth, he considers myths truth if they reflect deeper truths, and thus seems to view them as just as truthful as if they actually occurred. So, even though many of the events in Christ's life he views as myth, they apparently don't lose their power just because he doesn't believe they happened. They still reflect the deeper truth that he takes from the stories (Whereas I can understand his point, I nevertheless vehemently disagree with him on what events he considers myth).

But the question is--if the story Bart tells didn't happen as related, does it make it lesser? Or is there a truth in the story that exists even if the story is a myth? Certainly, it seems Bart needed to hear this encouraging story. Is he less encouraged if it didn't really happen like that?

And I also can't help but wonder to what ends we might express doubts about the story's validity. Isn't the important point that Bart, who works in the trenches surrounded by hopeless people and has expressed deep levels of discouragement on this site in the past, was encouraged by the story? Isn't it more important that a brother in Christ is encouraged than it is for us to determine whether or not the story is really true?

I should add, those aren't necessarily rhetorical questions. The last paragraph in your post gives me great pause.

by: squeaky

04-15-2009 @ 9:22pm

Reminds me of a discussion in a Bible study I was in last year. We were studying a book by Crossan, a scholar whose scholarly abilities I respect and have learned from, but many of whose conclusions I disagree with.

His argument (in a nutshell) is that the resurrection is a myth. But his concept of myth is larger than most people's--he doesn't consider the term to be negative, nor does he see what he considers myth as lesser than truth. From what I understand of his argument, it is the power of the story where the truth lies.

So whereas many people consider myth to equate with non-truth, he considers myths truth if they reflect deeper truths, and thus seems to view them as just as truthful as if they actually occurred. So, even though many of the events in Christ's life he views as myth, they apparently don't lose their power just because he doesn't believe they happened. They still reflect the deeper truth that he takes from the stories (Whereas I can understand his point, I nevertheless vehemently disagree with him on what events he considers myth).

But the question is--if the story Bart tells didn't happen as related, does it make it lesser? Or is there a truth in the story that exists even if the story is a myth? Certainly, it seems Bart needed to hear this encouraging story. Is he less encouraged if it didn't really happen like that?

And I also can't help but wonder to what ends we might express doubts about the story's validity. Isn't the important point that Bart, who works in the trenches surrounded by hopeless people and has expressed deep levels of discouragement on this site in the past, was encouraged by the story? Isn't it more important that a brother in Christ is encouraged than it is for us to determine whether or not the story is really true?

I should add, those aren't necessarily rhetorical questions. The last paragraph in your post gives me great pause.

by: JamesM

04-15-2009 @ 10:02pm

No, you're not setting yourself up. What is you say is largely true. But it is irrelevant to Bart Campolo's post and you seem to want to impose your view of how SOJO should see things instead of letting it speak for itself. Maybe another blog that expounds on things the way you see them would be more appropriate? You might want to consider that instead of being frustrated all the time with this blog.

by: JamesM

04-15-2009 @ 10:02pm

No, you're not setting yourself up. What is you say is largely true. But it is irrelevant to Bart Campolo's post and you seem to want to impose your view of how SOJO should see things instead of letting it speak for itself. Maybe another blog that expounds on things the way you see them would be more appropriate? You might want to consider that instead of being frustrated all the time with this blog.

by: 1Grace

04-15-2009 @ 11:19pm

Ando I often think we need a Revival in a hugh proportion for the things you are speaking to are to happen. I enjoy your perspective . What I enjoyed about the story was it challenges our hear , and to have the compacity for that much forgiveness obviously Christ has to be the center of our life.

by: 1Grace

04-15-2009 @ 11:19pm

Ando I often think we need a Revival in a hugh proportion for the things you are speaking to are to happen. I enjoy your perspective . What I enjoyed about the story was it challenges our hear , and to have the compacity for that much forgiveness obviously Christ has to be the center of our life.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 11:33pm

If you went to a fundraiser and two ministries presented moving stories of redemption and transformation and both asked you for financial support. You knew one was telling stories that happened. The other told stories to express a message of hope and encouragement about things that did not happen.

Which ministry would you support?

by: letjusticerolldown

04-15-2009 @ 11:33pm

If you went to a fundraiser and two ministries presented moving stories of redemption and transformation and both asked you for financial support. You knew one was telling stories that happened. The other told stories to express a message of hope and encouragement about things that did not happen.

Which ministry would you support?

by: canucklehead

04-16-2009 @ 12:03am

mmmm, I feel a dissertation coming on = "The Role of the Redactor in Shaping the Myths Arising From Modern Urban Ministry"

by: canucklehead

04-16-2009 @ 12:03am

mmmm, I feel a dissertation coming on = "The Role of the Redactor in Shaping the Myths Arising From Modern Urban Ministry"

by: squeaky

04-16-2009 @ 2:07pm

I know--that's why I made the last point in my last paragraph.

Nevertheless, this was a moving story, and the very first poster (nuclearferret), rather than commenting that it was a moving story and perhaps even encouraging Bart in his work, apparently felt the need to question its validity. Sometimes we can cling to our insistence for truth to the detriment of others. As this doesn't have anything to do with asking for money, I see little value in doing that in this particular instance.

by: squeaky

04-16-2009 @ 2:07pm

I know--that's why I made the last point in my last paragraph.

Nevertheless, this was a moving story, and the very first poster (nuclearferret), rather than commenting that it was a moving story and perhaps even encouraging Bart in his work, apparently felt the need to question its validity. Sometimes we can cling to our insistence for truth to the detriment of others. As this doesn't have anything to do with asking for money, I see little value in doing that in this particular instance.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-16-2009 @ 3:21pm

I think stories are very important. If I told you the "story of my day" it would have some semblance of reality to it--but more importantly it would reflect my perspective on my experience and the world around me this day. In ministry (or any other part of life) we develop our stories. I think how they connect and communicate our perspective--and how they communicate what actually happened are both very important.

There are many "stories" about the US intervention in Iraq. In a sense, hearing them all helps develop a richer perspective on the realities. However, it makes a great deal of difference what is true on the ground. We may have different views about Iran's involvement and different stories. But it also makes a difference whether/how Iran is involved. It makes a difference whether there really are WMD's.

Because of the 'distance' of much of Evangelicalism to much of urban America--it makes this topic ripe for varied, competing, and unhelplful storylines. There are many assumptions about race, culture, economics, cities, crime, violence, welfare, guns, policing, familiy-breakdown, promiscuity, etc. etc.

Why do we refer to alot of modern myths as 'urban legends'??

I tell persons wrestling with living/working/ministering in certain urban core neighborhoods that if they cannot see their community, their place, and their presence as essentially positive they should not engage. They likely do not have the grace to serve the King in that place.

I understand the wear and tear. I recall living behind a duplex on a block where I had witnessed multiple dead bodies, and trying to figure out how to alter the course of a property (and tenants) that appeared to have a destiny of death. I awoke in the middle of the night to fire trucks surrounding the property--flames pouring out of the roof and windows. I wearily went over to the property and counted nine bodies spread out around the base of the property with rescue personnel frantically trying to save life. And in the depth of the pit in the heart which can feel so empty in such moments, asking if the Gospel speaks.

But one's hope does not arise out of telling stories (and I am not making a judgement about Bart's story because I have no way of knowing. In prior comments I was just explaining why most stories like this, I listen to, and just allow them to be. But for reasons explained I tend not to pass them on); it comes out of seeing what is really there and seeing God's activity in what is really there; and embracing all that is good.

Otherwise our activity becomes geared at advancing our story--and we lose our responsibility and accountability to make a real difference in concrete realities. I fear most lives and most churches and most ministries are more engulfed in their own stories than they are in advancing the Kingdom in the concrete realities of our lives, families and communities.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-16-2009 @ 3:21pm

I think stories are very important. If I told you the "story of my day" it would have some semblance of reality to it--but more importantly it would reflect my perspective on my experience and the world around me this day. In ministry (or any other part of life) we develop our stories. I think how they connect and communicate our perspective--and how they communicate what actually happened are both very important.

There are many "stories" about the US intervention in Iraq. In a sense, hearing them all helps develop a richer perspective on the realities. However, it makes a great deal of difference what is true on the ground. We may have different views about Iran's involvement and different stories. But it also makes a difference whether/how Iran is involved. It makes a difference whether there really are WMD's.

Because of the 'distance' of much of Evangelicalism to much of urban America--it makes this topic ripe for varied, competing, and unhelplful storylines. There are many assumptions about race, culture, economics, cities, crime, violence, welfare, guns, policing, familiy-breakdown, promiscuity, etc. etc.

Why do we refer to alot of modern myths as 'urban legends'??

I tell persons wrestling with living/working/ministering in certain urban core neighborhoods that if they cannot see their community, their place, and their presence as essentially positive they should not engage. They likely do not have the grace to serve the King in that place.

I understand the wear and tear. I recall living behind a duplex on a block where I had witnessed multiple dead bodies, and trying to figure out how to alter the course of a property (and tenants) that appeared to have a destiny of death. I awoke in the middle of the night to fire trucks surrounding the property--flames pouring out of the roof and windows. I wearily went over to the property and counted nine bodies spread out around the base of the property with rescue personnel frantically trying to save life. And in the depth of the pit in the heart which can feel so empty in such moments, asking if the Gospel speaks.

But one's hope does not arise out of telling stories (and I am not making a judgement about Bart's story because I have no way of knowing. In prior comments I was just explaining why most stories like this, I listen to, and just allow them to be. But for reasons explained I tend not to pass them on); it comes out of seeing what is really there and seeing God's activity in what is really there; and embracing all that is good.

Otherwise our activity becomes geared at advancing our story--and we lose our responsibility and accountability to make a real difference in concrete realities. I fear most lives and most churches and most ministries are more engulfed in their own stories than they are in advancing the Kingdom in the concrete realities of our lives, families and communities.

by: Lord_Voldemort

04-16-2009 @ 5:30pm

FWIW -- I did a quick search on Google and the furthest back I can trace this story was a book by the Buddhist author Jack Kornfield titled "The Art of Forgiveness, Lovingkindness, and Peace". I can't say for sure where Kornfield got the story, but that's the place to look.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

04-16-2009 @ 5:30pm

FWIW -- I did a quick search on Google and the furthest back I can trace this story was a book by the Buddhist author Jack Kornfield titled "The Art of Forgiveness, Lovingkindness, and Peace". I can't say for sure where Kornfield got the story, but that's the place to look.

LV

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:33pm

The story provided above is a wonderful example of reconciliation and healing. IF it is true. If it isn't, it is a nice story. Nothing wrong with a nice story, but it is not an example of reconciliation, it is an example of someone imagining an example.

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:33pm

The story provided above is a wonderful example of reconciliation and healing. IF it is true. If it isn't, it is a nice story. Nothing wrong with a nice story, but it is not an example of reconciliation, it is an example of someone imagining an example.

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:34pm

One is a fraud, and one is doing the work. Not a hard decision.

by: nuclearferret

04-16-2009 @ 6:34pm

One is a fraud, and one is doing the work. Not a hard decision.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 9:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: Liadan

04-16-2009 @ 11:19pm

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: Liadan

04-16-2009 @ 11:19pm

I heard this story directly from the mother. I heard it at a story tellers conference in Los Angeles where she was speaking. Frankly, I'm rather upset this guy told this story. Its hers to tell, not his. But the story is true.

by: Br3n

04-16-2009 @ 11:53pm

Immediately questioning whether or not the story is true (or presumably, whether or not it REALLY happened) makes us blind to the over-riding question (for me) which is: what can I learn from this story? There is real teaching about love here, even if I never know the specific name for the woman and the boy.

by: Br3n

04-16-2009 @ 11:53pm

Immediately questioning whether or not the story is true (or presumably, whether or not it REALLY happened) makes us blind to the over-riding question (for me) which is: what can I learn from this story? There is real teaching about love here, even if I never know the specific name for the woman and the boy.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:55pm

Wow! Literalism really is corrosive!
Perhaps Mr. Campollo isn't sure it happened exactly that way, but he knows it is true.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: mgrello

04-16-2009 @ 11:56pm

It is certainly true, even if some of the facts are off.

by: Anothernonymous

04-17-2009 @ 12:50am

- And Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying:

- A mother had a son who was killed by bandits. One of the bandits was captured and sent to prison. There the mother of the boy he killed sought him out. Seeing that he had no-one else, she brought him gifts and remained with him during his time of greatest need. When the bandit was released from prison, the mother took him in as her own son.

- Her neighbors rebuked her, saying: "What have you done, treating your son's killer as though he were your own? Truly, if he had killed our son, we would bear hatred for him within our hearts."

- The mother replied: "Then your hatred would become your son. Truly, you would take hatred into your heart until it consumed you. I have taken love into my heart, and it has consumed my hatred."

- Which did the will of God: the woman or those who rebuked her? He who has ears, let him hear.

Just a reminder that I'm still lurking. The parables of Jesus ring true to me.

by: Anothernonymous

04-17-2009 @ 12:50am

- And Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying:

- A mother had a son who was killed by bandits. One of the bandits was captured and sent to prison. There the mother of the boy he killed sought him out. Seeing that he had no-one else, she brought him gifts and remained with him during his time of greatest need. When the bandit was released from prison, the mother took him in as her own son.

- Her neighbors rebuked her, saying: "What have you done, treating your son's killer as though he were your own? Truly, if he had killed our son, we would bear hatred for him within our hearts."

- The mother replied: "Then your hatred would become your son. Truly, you would take hatred into your heart until it consumed you. I have taken love into my heart, and it has consumed my hatred."

- Which did the will of God: the woman or those who rebuked her? He who has ears, let him hear.

Just a reminder that I'm still lurking. The parables of Jesus ring true to me.