Four Points Toward Peace in the Middle East

FWIW, I've heard it argued that dispensationalism (or at least the more radical versions of it) is heretical. The reason being that it is a relatively new innovation developed in the 17th (or was it 18th) century by Darby, and that it was completely foreign to the church before then. When we consider the Petrine promise (no matter whether we view it through a Catholic lens or not), it would be almost inconceivable that something so "crucial" to the faith would have eluded so many generations of Christians until the 17th century or so.

Further, certain variants of dispensationalism promote a "doesn't apply to our time" type of thinking. Turn the other cheek? Not in our time! Love your neighbor? Not during this dispensation! Something I've heard abused is God's promise to Moses that whoever blesses Israel will be blessed, and whoever curses Israel will be cursed. First, there is a difference between "blessing" and "supporting no matter what is done." Second, I will argue that the promise is taken out-of-context. The Israel then doesn't necessarily mean the Israel of today, and FWIW, God is not a robot that we can selfishly manipulate like the prosperity gospel preachers like to imagine.

Ngchen,

Don't you realize that God wants you to own a BMW, fly your private jet, and wear only expensive designer clothes? The only reason that you don't have these things is your lack of faith!

The doctrine of justification was corrupted and needed reformation. Why should eschatology have been any different?

"As long as Hezbollah exists, it will never recognise Israel." - leader of Lebanon's Islamist Hezbollah movement, Hassan Nasrallah March 14, 2009. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7943357.stm)

As long as there are Muslim extremists who hate Israel there will never be peace in that land.

I do believe and accept the biblical prophecies that foretell of a horrible time coming upon the earth. However, that is not why I support the Jews' right to the land of Israel.
I support their right because of what God says in His word:

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, 'I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly." And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, "As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an EVERLASTING covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an EVERLASTING possession; and I will be their God.'" (Genesis 17:1-8)

"And God said to Abraham 'Sarah, your wife, will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant and with his descendants after him. As for Ishmael, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and will make him a great nation. But My covenant will I establish with Isaac.'" (Genesis 17:19-21)

"And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran. And he came upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, 'I am the LORD God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon you lie, to you will I give it, and to your seed; And your seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in you and in your seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.'" (Genesis 28:10-14)

You say that God is no respecter of persons and right you are when it comes to anyone being able to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. However God called the Jews His "chosen people": "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth." (Deuteronomy 7:6)

Because the Jews as a people rejected Jesus as their Messiah does not void the "EVERLASTING covenant" that God made with them concerning the physical land of Israel:

"For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins. Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:25-29)

In the prophetic book of Amos God promised to bring the Jews back to their land and they would never be taken away from it again:

"And I will bring again the captivity of My people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." (Amos 9:14-15)

Was God wrong when He commanded the Jews to conquer the land of Canaan/Israel and defeat the inhabitants that had occupied that land for hundreds of years? How do you not know that the current situation is not the beginning of the fulfillment of God's word to bring the Jews back to the land nevermore to be uprooted from it. For 1800 years the Jews had no nation of their own. They should have assimilated and disappeared into every culture where they were dispersed. Yet they maintained their Jewish identity. Several places in the Old Testament God makes it clear that He will decide when the Jews will live in the land and when He will remove them as a form of judgment. Do you think after 1800 years God no longer cares what happens to His chosen people? The Bible declares, "But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven: A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year." (Deuteronomy 11:11-12)

I do not need to "rethink" my views on this issue. I'll take God's word over the word of humans who try to reinterpret His word in order to fit the modern world's view of the way things should be. Mr. McLaren, is it possible that you need to "re-rethink" your views?

Exactly James, exactly. For all of his supposed commitment to narrative, McLaren always avoids the obvious narrative right there in front of his face.

Some other thoughts:
-and all Israel will be saved.
-more Jews have been saved in the past 20 years than in the previous 1800.
-the first Christians were Jews and the last Christians will be Jews.

Brian, I count myself as one your fans..love your writing. But please, don't quit your day job, okay?!

For all of his trashing of "dispensational determinists", none of which have ever held power of any importance (perhaps people support Israel because it is the just and right thing to do in the face of evil), it makes one laugh at McLaren's version of the apocalypse: AGW which is unsupported by science and which McLaren and his friends on the left, who do hold power, will use as a vehicle to cause extreme economic problems for the lower and middle classes.

Unless he's joking.

After thinking things over, I agree you have a good point. Hoever, the difference here is that the doctrine of justification was, as you say, corrupted into a "faith+works" formulation, when scripture clearly taught that justification was by faith, and not by works. The ORIGINAL teaching on justification was by faith; hence the reformation.

Now, as to eschatology, the original teachings really weren't that clear, and dispensationalism did not arise until many centuries later. So dispensationalism is not some sort of reformation; rather, it's a novel idea. Again, I write to point out that it's unlikely that God would let people for more than 1700 years get something thoroughly wrong, in light of the Petrine guarantee.

I will try to respond to your post completely when the opportunity arises. For now, let's go through the references one at a time. For Genesis 17, note that Abraham was the father of MANY nations. Sure, the covenant was with Israel. A common interpretation was that the fact that Jesus was a Jew, and that the Messiah came from the line of David, was a fulfilling of the promise. Does God still care about the Jews? Of course he does!

On another note, I doubt too many people (with the exception of extremists like Hezbollah and Hamas) want Israel to disappear. Two questions: first, what precisely are the boundaries of the promised land, and second, what should happen to the non-Jews living there? Remember that lots (well maybe not lots) of them are our Christian brothers and sisters. Should they become second-class citizens? Remember Galatians 3:28, which specifically mandated equality and made us *all* part of Abraham's seed.

God's Word as recieved and acted upon by the One World Government United Nations, right?

Do you think Israel should treat the Palestinians as they did the Cannannites? After all we want to be Biblical. BTW- have you ever heard of the Babylonian captivity and the concept of Jewish exceptionalism espoused by the false prophets of Jeremiah's time?

Are you implying that God does not use nations to fulfill His will? He used Egypt to fulfill His promise to Abraham (Genesis 15:13) . He used the Chaldeans/Babylonians to perform His judgment: " For, lo, I RAISE up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not their's." (Habakkuk 1:6) He used the emperor of Rome to fulfill the prophecy that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:1). Do you think He then could not use the United Nations to fulfill His will?

It only matter what God thinks when it comes to fulfilling His word. Do you think God was wrong to command the Jews to invade the land of Canaan and conquer the inhabitants who had lived there for hundreds of years?

<NgChen>"I will try to respond to your post completely when the opportunity arises. For now, let's go through the references one at a time. For Genesis 17, note that Abraham was the father of MANY nations. Sure, the covenant was with Israel. A common interpretation was that the fact that Jesus was a Jew, and that the Messiah came from the line of David, was a fulfilling of the promise. Does God still care about the Jews? Of course he does!"<end NgChen>

You seem to be confusing two promises God made to Abraham:

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of
the earth be blessed." (Genesis 12:2-3) Jesus fulfilled this promise when He brought salvation to all who would receive Him.

"And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed
after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." (Genesis 17:7-8)

This second passage refers to the physical land of Israel and that He promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's descendants, the Jews.

<Ngchen>"On another note, I doubt too many people (with the exception of extremists like Hezbollah and Hamas) want Israel to disappear."<end NgChen>

It doesn't take a whole lot of extremists to keep disrupting the peace in Israel. As long as they exist they cannot allow Israel to live on land that they believe Allah gave to them.

<NgChen>"what precisely are the boundaries of the promised land<end NgChen>

God told the Jews that Israel's boundaries would be: "In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates." (Genesis 15:18) The Israelites never conquered all the land that God said was theirs. What the boundaries are under the current situation I cannot say. He simply said that one day He would return the Jews to Israel never to be uprooted from it again.

<NgChen>"what should happen to the non-Jews living there"<end NgChen>

They can continue to live there. The ones who left did so at the urging of the Arab governments who vowed to drive the Jews into the sea in 1948.

<NgChen>"Remember that lots (well maybe not lots) of them are our Christian brothers and sisters. Should they become second-class citizens?."<end NgChen>

They too should continue to live in the land.

<NgChen>"Remember Galatians 3:28, which specifically mandated equality and made us *all* part of Abraham's seed"<end NgChen>

Paul wrote:
"And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be." (Romans 4:11-18)

Paul declares that it is faith that saved Abraham. He states, "to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the FAITH of Abraham." This means that everyone, whether Jew or Gentile, who believes God's word and receives Jesus as the Messiah is a seed or descendant of Abraham. How can this be since Gentiles are not physically descended from Abraham? Paul is clearly speaking of Christians as a "spiritual" descendant of Abraham. Likewise, when Paul refers to Christians as the "Israel of God" in Galatians 6:15-16, he is saying that Christians, as a body of believers, are the "spiritual" Israel of God.

Paul himself made a distinction between Christians (the spiritual descendants of Abraham) and the Jews (the physical descendants of Abraham):

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew...What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded...(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your
mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
(Romans 11:1-2,8-32)

Paul says here that one day in the future "all Israel" will be saved. Israel cannot refer to Christians since Christians are already saved (I'm not talking about everyone who calls themselves as a Christian).

Christians don't need the land of Israel (crusades notwithstanding) so therefore the promise God made in Amos to return the Jews to the land forever does not refer to the spiritual seed but to the physical seed of Abraham. At the second coming of Christ they will become His spiritual seed also.

[For a former Islamic terrorist's point of view on the land of Israel you can visit Walid Shoebat's website at www.shoebat.com]

If "It only matters what God thinks when it comes to fulfilling His word." then why do you have or voice your opinion? -unless you are God.

Nice dodge though.

"Do you think He then could not use the United Nations to fulfill His will?"

Certainly. Why don't you run down there and fill them in on what it is.

What is the UN's will for Palestine today?

What happens to all those Jews in the end? Do you think God just has them there so we Christians can heed the signs of the Last Days. After all, it is all about us (sadistic, earth burning, slaughter happy believers) isn't it?

I think you have seen that I quote God's word extensively in my posts. That is because it is His word that matters. You seem to be adverse to answering the question I posed so I will try again. Do you think God was wrong to command the Jews to invade the land of Canaan and conquer the inhabitants who had lived there for hundreds of years?

Eschatology was reformed when Jesus didn't return by AD100. Dispensationalism is nothing more than a superimposed "private interpretation" parroted ad nauseum.

No. Can you quote God's express command that Israel should be occupying Palestine today? God was using the Israelites to punish the Cannannites then. What revelation do you claim for the modern race of Israel to play that instrument in God's hand today?

<James>"Do you think He then could not use the United Nations to fulfill His will?"<end James>

<Pastor Jeff>"Certainly. Why don't you run down there and fill them in on what it is."<end Pastor Jeff>

"Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them." (Luke 16:29) The Bible is the bestselling book of all time. There are plenty of them around. The members of the United Nations can get them and read for themselves what God's will is.

<Pastor Jeff>"What is the UN's will for Palestine today?"<end Pastor Jeff>

I don't know what the UN's will for Palestine is. I know what God's will is for the land of Israel. You can read my previous posts to find out.

<Pastor Jeff>"What happens to all those Jews in the end? Do you think God just has them there so we Christians can heed the signs of the Last Days. After all, it is all about us (sadistic, earth burning, slaughter happy believers) isn't it?"<end Pastor Jeff>

No, He has them there to create the utopia He desired for humans to have all along. But before that happens He will judge the world for its wicked rebellion against His word. He did this once before with the flood. Do you believe that God is a righteous judge who will send those who have rejected His Son to hell?

Now that I have answered your question directly, I expect you to answer mine instead of hiding behind the mysterious God and false humility of pretending not to know the specifics of God's will.

"Do you believe that God is a righteous judge who will send those who have rejected His Son to hell?"

Yes. Do you believe that God is a loving God that takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, leads people to repentance by His goodness and has the power to destroy hell if He chooses? Do you believe that Jesus is the Second Adam and that God is no longer obsessing over what mountain people worship Him on?

The prophet Daniel declares that it is God who sets up kings and thereby countries for them to rule over: "Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are His: And He changeth the times and the seasons: He removeth kings, and setteth up kings: He giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: He revealeth the deep and secret things: He knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with Him." (Daniel 2:20-22) Thus, it was God's will for the modern state of Israel to be created.

In the Old Testament God declared that it is His decision when the Jews live in the promised land and when they don't. He tells Moses to warn the Israelites that if they obey Him they will be blessed in the land of Israel. However, if they disobey Him, He will remove them from the land:

"And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field...And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone. And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind." (Deuteronomy 28:1-3,63-65)

Notice in this passage that it is the LORD who scatters the Jews from the land.

Later in Israel's history, God removed the Jews from the land for their disobedience. He used the Babylonian Empire to perform His judgment.

However, He tells them that He will return them to the land after seventy years:

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon...For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at
Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end." (Jeremiah 29:4,10-11)

Again God states that He is the one who caused the Jews to be carried away to Babylon and He will be the one to cause them to return to Israel.

In the book of the prophet Amos God promised to bring the Jews back to the land forever:

"And I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God." (Amos 9:14-15)

God declares that He is always watching Israel:

"But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of

heaven: A land which the LORD thy God careth for: the eyes of the LORD thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year." (Deuteronomy 11:11-12)

God emphasizes throughout His word that He is always interested in what is going on in the land of Israel and that He determines when the Jews live in the land. Thus the Jews couldn't have returned to the land of Israel unless it
was God's will for them to do so.

There is coming a time when the focus of salvation on Gentiles is coming to an end as the apostle Paul wrote: "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:25-27)

You said that God was not wrong in using the Israelites to punish the Canaanites and take their land. If He did it then could He not do it now? For you to be consistent you would have to agree that if God is doing this now then it wouldn't be wrong this time either. Since God's word makes it clear that He determines when the Jews live on the land then modern Israel is the fulfillment of His will.

<Pastor Jeff>"Yes. Do you believe that God is a loving God that takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, leads people to repentance by His goodness and has the power to destroy hell if He chooses?<end Pastor Jeff>

Yes but His word says that hell is not temporary but calls it everlasting fire: "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERELASTING fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18:8-9)

<Pastor Jeff>"Do you believe that Jesus is the Second Adam and that God is no longer obsessing over what mountain people worship Him on?"<end Pastor Jeff>

Yes until the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in". (Romans 11:25) After that happens though God says: "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." (Isaiah 2:2-4)

You kept asking me "Do you believe" and I answered yes to those questions. Why? Because it is in God's word just like the prophecy in Amos that says that one day He will return the Jews to the land of Israel.