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Why I Got Arrested on Good Friday

090421-jesus-jet"Good" Friday was real good this year. We remembered Jesus, and we remembered Jesus disguised in the "least of these" -- those who continue to be tortured, spit on, slapped, insulted, misunderstood

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by: milesperhour

04-24-2009 @ 5:47pm

so, the question then would be: why did Peter have a sword? I mean, after all this time with Jesus, why would Jesus allow Peter to carry a sword around with him? And why didn't Jesus go after the sword manufacturers?

by: sds

04-21-2009 @ 7:03pm

The main problem I have with this is that Claiborne seems to make social justice the primary focus of the gospel-and it is NOT. Claiborne and his friends seem so permanently attached to viewing everything through a lens of oppression, political leftism and the idea of "the least of these" (which do not [should not?] have to be inherently related), that he cannot even extricate himself from them for one day and focus on just the gospel. Jesus Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Why does Claiborne have to cheapen what should be a simple celebration of God coming to earth as a man-to seek and save the lost-with an opportunistic political agenda?

http://sds.tumblr.com/post/98627181/why-i-got-a...

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 8:02pm

Putting Jesus on the jetfighter in the illustration was a bit over the top for me too SDS We have protesters every year here in Bangor where Nuclear equipment is used for our Tridents. The same people here who protest also have a contingency that advocate 9/11 was an inside job , the United States promotes facism , etc etc . I like the idea our President was able to save the Captain recently using our Navy Seals . And I am very glad we have the ability to defend our citizens and others
Equating working at Lockheed or our government supportiong National Defence to me is a jump in logic and respect of the Cross.

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 4:11pm

Shane,

Thank you for your testimony, for your courage, and for your commitment to Jesus Christ.

by: Sweet_Home_Improvement

08-23-2009 @ 4:43pm

Great post, really help me alot. Thanks.

Cheers,
sweethomeimprove.com

by: ando

04-21-2009 @ 8:51pm

It's very easy on a "progressive" blog to single out certain sins, primarily the social ones. Of course, the Religious Right was -- rightly -- excoriated for doing the same thing with certain personal sins. We certainly have developed a hierarchy of sin on both the Left and the Right

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 5:06pm

"we remembered Jesus disguised in the "least of these" - those who continue to be tortured, spit on, slapped, insulted, misunderstood

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 5:12pm

"...I thought you were one of those tea party folks ."

You're confusing this site with Fox News.

by: danyosann

04-21-2009 @ 9:45pm

Personally, I think that the social justice aspect of the Gospel is often over-looked, and don't think that it was over-stated by Brother Claiborne's protest. My only issue is this: I think we would be better off making use of guns nonexistant, rather than making others stop using them. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't call people out when they are being irresponsible in selling their products or profiting off of destruction. I'm not suggesting that people's irresponsibilities should be tolerated. I'm humbly saying that if I want to radically practise nonviolence, that needs to be a choice and not the only option. We have to, in a way, sell the idea that buying fire arms isn't the best way to prepair yourselves for conflict. At least this is where my head is right now.
If you want to address me personally about this my address is lavelledg@mail.lipscomb.edu. I'm interested.
Peace.

by: AJrs

04-21-2009 @ 10:05pm

"...Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:23-24

by: letjusticerolldown

04-21-2009 @ 11:50pm

I agree fully with the witness.

I have yet, however, to grasp how the breaking of trespass laws to force an arrest is a witness against war/violence. Lockheed didn't stay open because they are making weapons while you were jailed for praying. You went to jail solely because you trespassed. The rest of your neighbors paid a host of folks to take care of your trespassing. Why not stand on your head in the middle of the freeway on which Lockheed workers drive to work?

I guess I'm probably missing something. I asked the same thing the last time you trespassed. I can't say I expected you to answer. If you want to share your journey meaningfully, why not answer the questions we have.

by: BlueCollarTodd

04-22-2009 @ 1:13am

I'll agree that selling guns to those who should not be able to buy them is wrong. But you need to differentiate between that and those of us who have legally bought guns and have the right to do so. Francis Schaeffer rightly argued that violence is justified to defend those who cannot defend themselves. It seems quite reasonable to think criminals love gun control since they know that the general public will be unable to defend themselves.

http://bluecollarphilosophy.com

by: canucklehead

04-22-2009 @ 2:57am

yeah, what's the matter with yuh, Shane? why can't you just go out to some multi-million dollar affluent suburban church somewhere and help out with gathering Easter lilies and putting on a nice, safe Easter morning brunch for people w/ nice new bonnets and sing sweet songs about low in the grave he lay; why do you always insist on a costly component to the gospel? you'd think Jesus told us we had to deny ourselves or something; what's the matter with you, Shane?

by: sds

04-21-2009 @ 7:03pm

The main problem I have with this is that Claiborne seems to make social justice the primary focus of the gospel-and it is NOT. Claiborne and his friends seem so permanently attached to viewing everything through a lens of oppression, political leftism and the idea of "the least of these" (which do not [should not?] have to be inherently related), that he cannot even extricate himself from them for one day and focus on just the gospel. Jesus Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Why does Claiborne have to cheapen what should be a simple celebration of God coming to earth as a man-to seek and save the lost-with an opportunistic political agenda?

http://sds.tumblr.com/post/98627181/why-i-got-a...

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 8:02pm

Putting Jesus on the jetfighter in the illustration was a bit over the top for me too SDS We have protesters every year here in Bangor where Nuclear equipment is used for our Tridents. The same people here who protest also have a contingency that advocate 9/11 was an inside job , the United States promotes facism , etc etc . I like the idea our President was able to save the Captain recently using our Navy Seals . And I am very glad we have the ability to defend our citizens and others
Equating working at Lockheed or our government supportiong National Defence to me is a jump in logic and respect of the Cross.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 11:22am

Well, you missed the point entirely, but you did live up to your name. I give you points for snark, but not content.

by: ando

04-21-2009 @ 8:51pm

It's very easy on a "progressive" blog to single out certain sins, primarily the social ones. Of course, the Religious Right was -- rightly -- excoriated for doing the same thing with certain personal sins. We certainly have developed a hierarchy of sin on both the Left and the Right

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:11pm

From some comments elsewhere about this post:

My intent with [my above comment] was not to disparage Claiborn (or his ministry) as a whole. I recognize that much of what he says and does is praiseworthy and true. And I'll even grant that I may be wrong to characterize his view of the gospel as social justice-centric. Neither am I arguing that social justice is a) unimportant, or b) a minor issue in the Gospels. However, the primary focus and message of the gospel is spiritual in nature. It's really all about sin, forgiveness, grace, the imputation of Christ's righteousness. And I wish Claiborne could celebrate that and proclaim that apart from unnecessary civil disobedience (unnecessary in the sense that the state does not obstruct his ability to proclaim the gospel).

Basically, Claiborne's chosen activities for Easter and Good Friday took away from (in my opinion) the message of forgiveness of sin.

Another thing I'd add: were conservative Christians to use Easter as an opportunity to demonstrate publicly against, say, abortion, I'd oppose it on the same grounds--diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:24pm

Remember that it was the night that Jesus got busted when he told Peter, "Put up your sword; for he who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:31pm

Was that supposed to make sense to the topic at hand?

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:39pm

Well, why not? I mean, part of the drama of Easter is that Jesus did things differently. It's easy to "spiritualize" the crucifixion and resurrection without understanding just how radical they proved to be in its original context, at a time of Jewish nationalism -- "Messiah" was a politically loaded term in its own right.

by: pete_guest

05-05-2009 @ 9:27am

sds, your point is agreeable in isolation, but we don't really have a nice neat day set aside to express our faith politcally and it's extreme for there to be only one way to honor the Good Friday holiday. People aren't missing your point, they just have their own point of view as valid as yours. It's simplistic to claim the gospel is mostly about making it possible for us to go to heaven. The gospel has many more implications and applications than that. Claiborne is expressing one of them.

by: danyosann

04-21-2009 @ 9:45pm

Personally, I think that the social justice aspect of the Gospel is often over-looked, and don't think that it was over-stated by Brother Claiborne's protest. My only issue is this: I think we would be better off making use of guns nonexistant, rather than making others stop using them. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't call people out when they are being irresponsible in selling their products or profiting off of destruction. I'm not suggesting that people's irresponsibilities should be tolerated. I'm humbly saying that if I want to radically practise nonviolence, that needs to be a choice and not the only option. We have to, in a way, sell the idea that buying fire arms isn't the best way to prepair yourselves for conflict. At least this is where my head is right now.
If you want to address me personally about this my address is lavelledg@mail.lipscomb.edu. I'm interested.
Peace.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:09pm

Yes, "messiah" was a politically loaded term--but wasn't that part of the problem? The Jews were expecting a political leader, a king to liberate them from oppressive Roman rule. Turns out Jesus came to forgive their (and our) sins and cleanse them of unrighteousness, not ascend to an earthly throne (yet!).

There is definitely a local context to the crucifixion that is beautiful and glorious, and lends to our understanding of it--but I'm not sure I see a danger in "spiritualizing" it. The accomplishments of the crucifixion were primarily spiritual in nature.

by: AJrs

04-21-2009 @ 10:05pm

"...Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:23-24

by: letjusticerolldown

04-21-2009 @ 11:50pm

I agree fully with the witness.

I have yet, however, to grasp how the breaking of trespass laws to force an arrest is a witness against war/violence. Lockheed didn't stay open because they are making weapons while you were jailed for praying. You went to jail solely because you trespassed. The rest of your neighbors paid a host of folks to take care of your trespassing. Why not stand on your head in the middle of the freeway on which Lockheed workers drive to work?

I guess I'm probably missing something. I asked the same thing the last time you trespassed. I can't say I expected you to answer. If you want to share your journey meaningfully, why not answer the questions we have.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 1:34pm

That's not all Jesus did, however. God's intention was to gather a people to
Himself that would live by and through Him to bless the world; because of sin
He had to send Jesus to atone so that could be possible.

by: BlueCollarTodd

04-22-2009 @ 1:13am

I'll agree that selling guns to those who should not be able to buy them is wrong. But you need to differentiate between that and those of us who have legally bought guns and have the right to do so. Francis Schaeffer rightly argued that violence is justified to defend those who cannot defend themselves. It seems quite reasonable to think criminals love gun control since they know that the general public will be unable to defend themselves.

http://bluecollarphilosophy.com

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:43pm

Well said. Agreed.

by: canucklehead

04-22-2009 @ 2:57am

yeah, what's the matter with yuh, Shane? why can't you just go out to some multi-million dollar affluent suburban church somewhere and help out with gathering Easter lilies and putting on a nice, safe Easter morning brunch for people w/ nice new bonnets and sing sweet songs about low in the grave he lay; why do you always insist on a costly component to the gospel? you'd think Jesus told us we had to deny ourselves or something; what's the matter with you, Shane?

by: Android Tablets

06-14-2011 @ 3:08pm

by: erikaskis

04-22-2009 @ 2:28pm

Is your objection just that they did this on Good Friday?

by: Sweet_Home_Improvement

08-23-2009 @ 2:43pm

Great post, really help me alot. Thanks.

Cheers,
sweethomeimprove.com

by: virginiachall17

07-16-2009 @ 3:38am

I've been using Arthemia for a while and I'm looking into changing to a premium theme. I've heard a lot about the Thesis theme. And your write up on it does given another dimension to nfcu its flexibility. And in the event that I decide to go for Thesis theme, rest assured that I'll come back to your blog and click on the Thesis theme from your blog. You deserve the commission! :)

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 11:22am

Well, you missed the point entirely, but you did live up to your name. I give you points for snark, but not content.

by: rryand35

05-28-2009 @ 6:58am

One thing I think Christians miss in the debate over nuclear arms/gun control is that Jesus' words do not pertain to the defense of 300 million people. It dealt with how YOU respond to the people who harm YOU. Not how a nation deals with people desiring to hurt millions. Jesus was personal. National defense is, well, national. In a world filled with people who would like none other than to blow us all to kingdom come, we must realize that defense in the form of nuclear arms is sometimes necessary.
And in a world where someone will shoot you just for the pleasure, the ability to own a gun is necessary. I will happily die a martyrs death. But when you are going to kill me and my family because you are a psychopath or want to steal my car, that is when I defend not just me, but my family.
Jesus did not want us to become weak and defenseless. He wanted us to have a heart of forgiveness and mercy, which is why I would always aim for the shoulder. ;)

by: mscynthia

05-11-2009 @ 1:12am

Ok, if not on Good Friday

then how about the other 364 days of the year.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:11pm

From some comments elsewhere about this post:

My intent with [my above comment] was not to disparage Claiborn (or his ministry) as a whole. I recognize that much of what he says and does is praiseworthy and true. And I'll even grant that I may be wrong to characterize his view of the gospel as social justice-centric. Neither am I arguing that social justice is a) unimportant, or b) a minor issue in the Gospels. However, the primary focus and message of the gospel is spiritual in nature. It's really all about sin, forgiveness, grace, the imputation of Christ's righteousness. And I wish Claiborne could celebrate that and proclaim that apart from unnecessary civil disobedience (unnecessary in the sense that the state does not obstruct his ability to proclaim the gospel).

Basically, Claiborne's chosen activities for Easter and Good Friday took away from (in my opinion) the message of forgiveness of sin.

Another thing I'd add: were conservative Christians to use Easter as an opportunity to demonstrate publicly against, say, abortion, I'd oppose it on the same grounds--diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:24pm

Remember that it was the night that Jesus got busted when he told Peter, "Put up your sword; for he who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:31pm

Was that supposed to make sense to the topic at hand?

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:39pm

Well, why not? I mean, part of the drama of Easter is that Jesus did things differently. It's easy to "spiritualize" the crucifixion and resurrection without understanding just how radical they proved to be in its original context, at a time of Jewish nationalism -- "Messiah" was a politically loaded term in its own right.

by: pete_guest

05-05-2009 @ 9:27am

sds, your point is agreeable in isolation, but we don't really have a nice neat day set aside to express our faith politcally and it's extreme for there to be only one way to honor the Good Friday holiday. People aren't missing your point, they just have their own point of view as valid as yours. It's simplistic to claim the gospel is mostly about making it possible for us to go to heaven. The gospel has many more implications and applications than that. Claiborne is expressing one of them.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:09pm

Yes, "messiah" was a politically loaded term--but wasn't that part of the problem? The Jews were expecting a political leader, a king to liberate them from oppressive Roman rule. Turns out Jesus came to forgive their (and our) sins and cleanse them of unrighteousness, not ascend to an earthly throne (yet!).

There is definitely a local context to the crucifixion that is beautiful and glorious, and lends to our understanding of it--but I'm not sure I see a danger in "spiritualizing" it. The accomplishments of the crucifixion were primarily spiritual in nature.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 4:52pm

Pretty much, yeah--as I described in one of the comments in this thread. I
feel it took away from what the focus of Easter is (or should be).

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 1:34pm

That's not all Jesus did, however. God's intention was to gather a people to
Himself that would live by and through Him to bless the world; because of sin
He had to send Jesus to atone so that could be possible.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:43pm

Well said. Agreed.

by: 1Grace

04-22-2009 @ 5:55pm

"diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day. "

I can understand that , using Easter as a means to make a political point ior even a justified moral one can be seen taking the focus off Christ and onto the another subject . I don't think it would have mattered to me if Claiborne used at least a respectful way of doing it . I don't see the people working at Lockheed as having UnChristian jobs . Thats a leap and quite insulting , its not conveying the Love of the Gospel . Now if he was protesting say the people or Congressmen who advocated policies that led to war, torture, hunger, at least I could see his point .

I am glad we have LockHeed . Jesus has no problem with the people who work there either . Big difference in living by the sword and having one available . In fact , I don't own a gun , but far be it from be to tell another person its against the Gospel . And I certainly would not convey to a believer that working at Lockheed was sinful , and especially I would be concerned as a Christian as it being a block to knowing Christ in what Claiborn unintentionaly did here. Christ is concerned about our hearts , not a Constitutionaly required ability to protect our nation from foreign agggression.

by: erikaskis

04-22-2009 @ 2:28pm

Is your objection just that they did this on Good Friday?

by: blumenbelle87

04-22-2009 @ 7:31pm

I do believe Mr. Canucklehead was being sarcastic. If so, he's trying to get people to question their non-questioning, or said another way, make them think about the Christianity they live. If not, I'm not sure what he was going for:P

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 4:52pm

Pretty much, yeah--as I described in one of the comments in this thread. I
feel it took away from what the focus of Easter is (or should be).

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 4:11pm

Shane,

Thank you for your testimony, for your courage, and for your commitment to Jesus Christ.

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 4:11pm

Shane,

Thank you for your testimony, for your courage, and for your commitment to Jesus Christ.

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 5:06pm

"we remembered Jesus disguised in the "least of these" - those who continue to be tortured, spit on, slapped, insulted, misunderstood

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 5:06pm

"we remembered Jesus disguised in the "least of these" - those who continue to be tortured, spit on, slapped, insulted, misunderstood

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 5:12pm

"...I thought you were one of those tea party folks ."

You're confusing this site with Fox News.

by: SisterMarie

04-21-2009 @ 5:12pm

"...I thought you were one of those tea party folks ."

You're confusing this site with Fox News.

by: sds

04-21-2009 @ 7:03pm

The main problem I have with this is that Claiborne seems to make social justice the primary focus of the gospel-and it is NOT. Claiborne and his friends seem so permanently attached to viewing everything through a lens of oppression, political leftism and the idea of "the least of these" (which do not [should not?] have to be inherently related), that he cannot even extricate himself from them for one day and focus on just the gospel. Jesus Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Why does Claiborne have to cheapen what should be a simple celebration of God coming to earth as a man-to seek and save the lost-with an opportunistic political agenda?

http://sds.tumblr.com/post/98627181/why-i-got-a...

by: sds

04-21-2009 @ 7:03pm

The main problem I have with this is that Claiborne seems to make social justice the primary focus of the gospel-and it is NOT. Claiborne and his friends seem so permanently attached to viewing everything through a lens of oppression, political leftism and the idea of "the least of these" (which do not [should not?] have to be inherently related), that he cannot even extricate himself from them for one day and focus on just the gospel. Jesus Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Why does Claiborne have to cheapen what should be a simple celebration of God coming to earth as a man-to seek and save the lost-with an opportunistic political agenda?

http://sds.tumblr.com/post/98627181/why-i-got-a...

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 8:02pm

Putting Jesus on the jetfighter in the illustration was a bit over the top for me too SDS We have protesters every year here in Bangor where Nuclear equipment is used for our Tridents. The same people here who protest also have a contingency that advocate 9/11 was an inside job , the United States promotes facism , etc etc . I like the idea our President was able to save the Captain recently using our Navy Seals . And I am very glad we have the ability to defend our citizens and others
Equating working at Lockheed or our government supportiong National Defence to me is a jump in logic and respect of the Cross.

by: 1Grace

04-21-2009 @ 8:02pm

Putting Jesus on the jetfighter in the illustration was a bit over the top for me too SDS We have protesters every year here in Bangor where Nuclear equipment is used for our Tridents. The same people here who protest also have a contingency that advocate 9/11 was an inside job , the United States promotes facism , etc etc . I like the idea our President was able to save the Captain recently using our Navy Seals . And I am very glad we have the ability to defend our citizens and others
Equating working at Lockheed or our government supportiong National Defence to me is a jump in logic and respect of the Cross.

by: ando

04-21-2009 @ 8:51pm

It's very easy on a "progressive" blog to single out certain sins, primarily the social ones. Of course, the Religious Right was -- rightly -- excoriated for doing the same thing with certain personal sins. We certainly have developed a hierarchy of sin on both the Left and the Right

by: ando

04-21-2009 @ 8:51pm

It's very easy on a "progressive" blog to single out certain sins, primarily the social ones. Of course, the Religious Right was -- rightly -- excoriated for doing the same thing with certain personal sins. We certainly have developed a hierarchy of sin on both the Left and the Right

by: danyosann

04-21-2009 @ 9:45pm

Personally, I think that the social justice aspect of the Gospel is often over-looked, and don't think that it was over-stated by Brother Claiborne's protest. My only issue is this: I think we would be better off making use of guns nonexistant, rather than making others stop using them. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't call people out when they are being irresponsible in selling their products or profiting off of destruction. I'm not suggesting that people's irresponsibilities should be tolerated. I'm humbly saying that if I want to radically practise nonviolence, that needs to be a choice and not the only option. We have to, in a way, sell the idea that buying fire arms isn't the best way to prepair yourselves for conflict. At least this is where my head is right now.
If you want to address me personally about this my address is lavelledg@mail.lipscomb.edu. I'm interested.
Peace.

by: danyosann

04-21-2009 @ 9:45pm

Personally, I think that the social justice aspect of the Gospel is often over-looked, and don't think that it was over-stated by Brother Claiborne's protest. My only issue is this: I think we would be better off making use of guns nonexistant, rather than making others stop using them. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't call people out when they are being irresponsible in selling their products or profiting off of destruction. I'm not suggesting that people's irresponsibilities should be tolerated. I'm humbly saying that if I want to radically practise nonviolence, that needs to be a choice and not the only option. We have to, in a way, sell the idea that buying fire arms isn't the best way to prepair yourselves for conflict. At least this is where my head is right now.
If you want to address me personally about this my address is lavelledg@mail.lipscomb.edu. I'm interested.
Peace.

by: AJrs

04-21-2009 @ 10:05pm

"...Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:23-24

by: AJrs

04-21-2009 @ 10:05pm

"...Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Luke 10:23-24

by: letjusticerolldown

04-21-2009 @ 11:50pm

I agree fully with the witness.

I have yet, however, to grasp how the breaking of trespass laws to force an arrest is a witness against war/violence. Lockheed didn't stay open because they are making weapons while you were jailed for praying. You went to jail solely because you trespassed. The rest of your neighbors paid a host of folks to take care of your trespassing. Why not stand on your head in the middle of the freeway on which Lockheed workers drive to work?

I guess I'm probably missing something. I asked the same thing the last time you trespassed. I can't say I expected you to answer. If you want to share your journey meaningfully, why not answer the questions we have.

by: letjusticerolldown

04-21-2009 @ 11:50pm

I agree fully with the witness.

I have yet, however, to grasp how the breaking of trespass laws to force an arrest is a witness against war/violence. Lockheed didn't stay open because they are making weapons while you were jailed for praying. You went to jail solely because you trespassed. The rest of your neighbors paid a host of folks to take care of your trespassing. Why not stand on your head in the middle of the freeway on which Lockheed workers drive to work?

I guess I'm probably missing something. I asked the same thing the last time you trespassed. I can't say I expected you to answer. If you want to share your journey meaningfully, why not answer the questions we have.

by: BlueCollarTodd

04-22-2009 @ 1:13am

I'll agree that selling guns to those who should not be able to buy them is wrong. But you need to differentiate between that and those of us who have legally bought guns and have the right to do so. Francis Schaeffer rightly argued that violence is justified to defend those who cannot defend themselves. It seems quite reasonable to think criminals love gun control since they know that the general public will be unable to defend themselves.

http://bluecollarphilosophy.com

by: BlueCollarTodd

04-22-2009 @ 1:13am

I'll agree that selling guns to those who should not be able to buy them is wrong. But you need to differentiate between that and those of us who have legally bought guns and have the right to do so. Francis Schaeffer rightly argued that violence is justified to defend those who cannot defend themselves. It seems quite reasonable to think criminals love gun control since they know that the general public will be unable to defend themselves.

http://bluecollarphilosophy.com

by: canucklehead

04-22-2009 @ 2:57am

yeah, what's the matter with yuh, Shane? why can't you just go out to some multi-million dollar affluent suburban church somewhere and help out with gathering Easter lilies and putting on a nice, safe Easter morning brunch for people w/ nice new bonnets and sing sweet songs about low in the grave he lay; why do you always insist on a costly component to the gospel? you'd think Jesus told us we had to deny ourselves or something; what's the matter with you, Shane?

by: canucklehead

04-22-2009 @ 2:57am

yeah, what's the matter with yuh, Shane? why can't you just go out to some multi-million dollar affluent suburban church somewhere and help out with gathering Easter lilies and putting on a nice, safe Easter morning brunch for people w/ nice new bonnets and sing sweet songs about low in the grave he lay; why do you always insist on a costly component to the gospel? you'd think Jesus told us we had to deny ourselves or something; what's the matter with you, Shane?

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 11:22am

Well, you missed the point entirely, but you did live up to your name. I give you points for snark, but not content.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 11:22am

Well, you missed the point entirely, but you did live up to your name. I give you points for snark, but not content.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:11pm

From some comments elsewhere about this post:

My intent with [my above comment] was not to disparage Claiborn (or his ministry) as a whole. I recognize that much of what he says and does is praiseworthy and true. And I'll even grant that I may be wrong to characterize his view of the gospel as social justice-centric. Neither am I arguing that social justice is a) unimportant, or b) a minor issue in the Gospels. However, the primary focus and message of the gospel is spiritual in nature. It's really all about sin, forgiveness, grace, the imputation of Christ's righteousness. And I wish Claiborne could celebrate that and proclaim that apart from unnecessary civil disobedience (unnecessary in the sense that the state does not obstruct his ability to proclaim the gospel).

Basically, Claiborne's chosen activities for Easter and Good Friday took away from (in my opinion) the message of forgiveness of sin.

Another thing I'd add: were conservative Christians to use Easter as an opportunity to demonstrate publicly against, say, abortion, I'd oppose it on the same grounds--diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:11pm

From some comments elsewhere about this post:

My intent with [my above comment] was not to disparage Claiborn (or his ministry) as a whole. I recognize that much of what he says and does is praiseworthy and true. And I'll even grant that I may be wrong to characterize his view of the gospel as social justice-centric. Neither am I arguing that social justice is a) unimportant, or b) a minor issue in the Gospels. However, the primary focus and message of the gospel is spiritual in nature. It's really all about sin, forgiveness, grace, the imputation of Christ's righteousness. And I wish Claiborne could celebrate that and proclaim that apart from unnecessary civil disobedience (unnecessary in the sense that the state does not obstruct his ability to proclaim the gospel).

Basically, Claiborne's chosen activities for Easter and Good Friday took away from (in my opinion) the message of forgiveness of sin.

Another thing I'd add: were conservative Christians to use Easter as an opportunity to demonstrate publicly against, say, abortion, I'd oppose it on the same grounds--diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:24pm

Remember that it was the night that Jesus got busted when he told Peter, "Put up your sword; for he who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:24pm

Remember that it was the night that Jesus got busted when he told Peter, "Put up your sword; for he who lives by the sword will die by the sword."

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:31pm

Was that supposed to make sense to the topic at hand?

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 12:31pm

Was that supposed to make sense to the topic at hand?

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:39pm

Well, why not? I mean, part of the drama of Easter is that Jesus did things differently. It's easy to "spiritualize" the crucifixion and resurrection without understanding just how radical they proved to be in its original context, at a time of Jewish nationalism -- "Messiah" was a politically loaded term in its own right.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 12:39pm

Well, why not? I mean, part of the drama of Easter is that Jesus did things differently. It's easy to "spiritualize" the crucifixion and resurrection without understanding just how radical they proved to be in its original context, at a time of Jewish nationalism -- "Messiah" was a politically loaded term in its own right.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:09pm

Yes, "messiah" was a politically loaded term--but wasn't that part of the problem? The Jews were expecting a political leader, a king to liberate them from oppressive Roman rule. Turns out Jesus came to forgive their (and our) sins and cleanse them of unrighteousness, not ascend to an earthly throne (yet!).

There is definitely a local context to the crucifixion that is beautiful and glorious, and lends to our understanding of it--but I'm not sure I see a danger in "spiritualizing" it. The accomplishments of the crucifixion were primarily spiritual in nature.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:09pm

Yes, "messiah" was a politically loaded term--but wasn't that part of the problem? The Jews were expecting a political leader, a king to liberate them from oppressive Roman rule. Turns out Jesus came to forgive their (and our) sins and cleanse them of unrighteousness, not ascend to an earthly throne (yet!).

There is definitely a local context to the crucifixion that is beautiful and glorious, and lends to our understanding of it--but I'm not sure I see a danger in "spiritualizing" it. The accomplishments of the crucifixion were primarily spiritual in nature.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 1:34pm

That's not all Jesus did, however. God's intention was to gather a people to
Himself that would live by and through Him to bless the world; because of sin
He had to send Jesus to atone so that could be possible.

by: BlueDeacon

04-22-2009 @ 1:34pm

That's not all Jesus did, however. God's intention was to gather a people to
Himself that would live by and through Him to bless the world; because of sin
He had to send Jesus to atone so that could be possible.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:43pm

Well said. Agreed.

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 1:43pm

Well said. Agreed.

by: erikaskis

04-22-2009 @ 2:28pm

Is your objection just that they did this on Good Friday?

by: erikaskis

04-22-2009 @ 2:28pm

Is your objection just that they did this on Good Friday?

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 4:52pm

Pretty much, yeah--as I described in one of the comments in this thread. I
feel it took away from what the focus of Easter is (or should be).

by: sds

04-22-2009 @ 4:52pm

Pretty much, yeah--as I described in one of the comments in this thread. I
feel it took away from what the focus of Easter is (or should be).

by: 1Grace

04-22-2009 @ 5:55pm

"diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day. "

I can understand that , using Easter as a means to make a political point ior even a justified moral one can be seen taking the focus off Christ and onto the another subject . I don't think it would have mattered to me if Claiborne used at least a respectful way of doing it . I don't see the people working at Lockheed as having UnChristian jobs . Thats a leap and quite insulting , its not conveying the Love of the Gospel . Now if he was protesting say the people or Congressmen who advocated policies that led to war, torture, hunger, at least I could see his point .

I am glad we have LockHeed . Jesus has no problem with the people who work there either . Big difference in living by the sword and having one available . In fact , I don't own a gun , but far be it from be to tell another person its against the Gospel . And I certainly would not convey to a believer that working at Lockheed was sinful , and especially I would be concerned as a Christian as it being a block to knowing Christ in what Claiborn unintentionaly did here. Christ is concerned about our hearts , not a Constitutionaly required ability to protect our nation from foreign agggression.

by: 1Grace

04-22-2009 @ 5:55pm

"diluting the true importance of the Gospel on such a distinctive and meaningful day. "

I can understand that , using Easter as a means to make a political point ior even a justified moral one can be seen taking the focus off Christ and onto the another subject . I don't think it would have mattered to me if Claiborne used at least a respectful way of doing it . I don't see the people working at Lockheed as having UnChristian jobs . Thats a leap and quite insulting , its not conveying the Love of the Gospel . Now if he was protesting say the people or Congressmen who advocated policies that led to war, torture, hunger, at least I could see his point .

I am glad we have LockHeed . Jesus has no problem with the people who work there either . Big difference in living by the sword and having one available . In fact , I don't own a gun , but far be it from be to tell another person its against the Gospel . And I certainly would not convey to a believer that working at Lockheed was sinful , and especially I would be concerned as a Christian as it being a block to knowing Christ in what Claiborn unintentionaly did here. Christ is concerned about our hearts , not a Constitutionaly required ability to protect our nation from foreign agggression.

by: blumenbelle87

04-22-2009 @ 7:31pm

I do believe Mr. Canucklehead was being sarcastic. If so, he's trying to get people to question their non-questioning, or said another way, make them think about the Christianity they live. If not, I'm not sure what he was going for:P

by: blumenbelle87

04-22-2009 @ 7:31pm

I do believe Mr. Canucklehead was being sarcastic. If so, he's trying to get people to question their non-questioning, or said another way, make them think about the Christianity they live. If not, I'm not sure what he was going for:P

by: ssebas

04-23-2009 @ 2:10am

If the gospel isn't for the least of these, then who is it for? Social justice is the good news, not just going to heaven when you die.

by: ssebas

04-23-2009 @ 2:10am

If the gospel isn't for the least of these, then who is it for? Social justice is the good news, not just going to heaven when you die.

by: sds

04-23-2009 @ 10:53am

Once again, you're missing my point. Nobody is saying the gospel ISN'T for
the least of these--it's for everyone. And while it has many implications
for living (such as social justice), the cross is NOT primarily about
serving the homeless or demonstrating against guns. As I wrote above: Jesus
Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun
owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the
multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Claiborne's social-justice and political-activism focus on Easter is
counterproductive and too narrow.

by: sds

04-23-2009 @ 10:53am

Once again, you're missing my point. Nobody is saying the gospel ISN'T for
the least of these--it's for everyone. And while it has many implications
for living (such as social justice), the cross is NOT primarily about
serving the homeless or demonstrating against guns. As I wrote above: Jesus
Christ came to save sinners. Sinners of all kinds: gun victims AND gun
owners, the raped AND the rapist, the homeless guy AND the
multi-billionaire, the black man AND the white man, women AND men.

Claiborne's social-justice and political-activism focus on Easter is
counterproductive and too narrow.