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Mark Driscoll, St. Francis, and the Megachurch

I rarely agree with Mark Driscoll. Yet he points to something when he said:

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This generation can be a whiny bunch of idealists getting together in small groups to complain about megachurches and the religious right rather than doing something.

You don't need to have read René Girard to know it's easier to unite "AGAINST" than it is to let God develop in us the humility to risk ourselves in being "FOR" the kingdom. The reality of this hit me again last week after sharing with a young Christian leader that I would be preaching on "loving your enemies" at Riverview (apparently one of the largest churches in Western Australia.) The young leader's response was one of horror... and it left me thinking of St. Francis of Assisi.

Most interesting for me is what scandalised this brother. This person knew I had been involved in outreach work seeking to disarm and transform a militant Islamic group in Indonesia, who were said to have been connected to fundraising for the Bali bombing in which a friend of mine was murdered in 2002. Yet God's grace transforming terrorists wasn't a stumbling block for this young "alternative" Christian. But God's grace transforming a megachurch was. The horrific tragedy of Bali was somehow trendy to this guy. Saving terrorists for him was sexy, "cutting edge," and "radical." But God's grace transforming a megachurch wasn't very "hardcore." This for him was a scandal.

My sharing in Driscoll's sentiment comes out of grassroots experience in Australia, being part of establishing The Peace Tree Community and Empowering Peacemakers, and working across the Christian spectrum with my generation of Christian young adults where I have repeatedly heard the twin despairs of "idealism" and "whining" (or as we'd say in Australia, "whinging"). The idealism, the whinging, and the scapegoating of "what I'm not" reveals our crisis of discipleship and our need to undergo formation in a kingdom imagination.

Whinging and Idealism: The Twin Despairs

The whinging might be easier to understand as despair than the idealism, but it's no less divorced from the hope of the resurrection. As N.T. Wright has brilliantly made the case, biblically, the hope of resurrection is a call to action. It can be easier to see how whinging can lead to inaction and put us in the place of the self-righteous/self-assured religious type in Luke 18 (:9-14), thanking God that we are not like those "other" [insert group you have disdain for here]. But idealism will lead us to the same place. Instead of hearing Jesus' commandments as dynamic-transformative-grace-empowered-practicalities of God's new world, ideals turn Jesus' teachings into static goals, divorced from the biblical narrative and the good news of God's future Shalom being a now reality in Christ. Instead we are left with dry and stale "must do's" for the "the hard core" where we can judge others from. As I spell out in the last chapter of Dave Andrews' new book, "Plan Be," the practicalities of grace that are Christ's teachings are lost on us when they become "ideals." The focus soon becomes "us" and we miss the gracious invitation and empowerment of the Holy Spirit to lose our lives in seeking first the kingdom. What will always quickly follow from a focus on "us" is the need for an "other" to compare ourselves with.

St. Francis and the Mainstream/Megachurch

The temptation of our identity not being formed in Christ but in reaction to what we hate, to what we are "AGAINST," was masterfully resisted by that amazing imitator of Christ, St. Francis of Assisi. There was a megachurch in his day too, Rome, but instead of breaking the relationship with the establishment in reaction, he sought to live in the prophetic tension, embodying a costly alternative even if it meant losing his community to the Powers and going the way of the cross. How desperately today does the church need new saint Francises who hold the prophetic tension and call the church to be the church.

Recently I've encountered two very different expressions of the paradigm we encounter in St. Francis. Both examples embody the "less sexy" scandal of believing God's grace can transform "the mega and mainstream church." Urban Vision, a new monastic community in New Zealand, has intentionally chosen to stay connected to the mainstream church. Justin Duckworth of the community is quite explicit in St. Francis being a model for engagement in transforming the church. The other example will shock some. Australia's biggest megachurch, "Hillsong," has a youth worship band called "United," which has turned its back on the false doctrine of "prosperity gospel" for a gospel concerned about the poor. While some might be quick to point out that they have yet to critique the structures that cause this kind of poverty, their latest video shows they are on the journey and questioning their own involvement.

For some of us today, St. Francis scandalises us by his identity so radically grounded in the Crucified that he would love his enemies and travel to call the sultan Melek-el-Kamel and the crusaders to put down their weapons and take up the cross. But for others of us maybe St. Francis' identity so radically grounded in the Crucified scandalises us in the way he takes transformative steps toward the megachurch of his day with all its injustices. Rather than reactionary bitterness, Francis responds with prophetic tears that long for repentance and real change. Rather than name-calling and finger-pointing, Francis creates and embodies in community an alternative that can put flesh to a kingdom imagination. St. Francis' is a paradigm for Jesus' way forward, were we respond not with idealism and whinging but in imitation to Christ. We too are invited to risk the way of the cross, trusting in the power that raised Jesus from the grave can transform us, terrorists and megachurches.

portrait-jarrod-mckennaJarrod McKenna is seeking to live God's love. As a Vine and Fig Tree Planter, he plants "signs" on military bases that draw the connections between God's kingdom, militarism, and climate change. He is a co-founder of the Peace Tree Community, serving with the marginalised in one of the poorest areas in his city, heads up Together for Humanity in Western Australia (an interfaith youth initiative serving together for the common good), and is the founder and creative director of Empowering Peacemakers (EPYC), for which he has received an Australian peace award for his work in empowering a generation of (eco)evangelists and peace prophets.

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by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 4:21pm

Could we have a translation into American? I have never heard of "whinging". I guess it must be an Australian term. Our languages are similar but not identical.

by: BlueDeacon

05-02-2009 @ 7:26pm

He actually gave it -- just remove the first "g."

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 7:57pm

Oh, was it a typo?

by: jeffp

05-02-2009 @ 10:10pm

good article. BTW, Hillsong is part of a group that has a long history of helping the poor.

by: BlueDeacon

05-04-2009 @ 7:01pm

Nope -- just a difference in spelling.

by: BlueDeacon

05-04-2009 @ 7:01pm

Nope -- just a difference in spelling.

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 11:52pm

I meant to say 'reveal the kingdom ON Earth' not 'reveal the kingdom earth' Ha!

by: mosco

05-11-2009 @ 4:37am

mako80 -

You can oversimplify what I said as a vainity and indicative of someone who doesnt care about the poor and opressed "just wanting a guarantee into heaven" - this is a standard response and a architypal emergent strawman argument.

The assertion that Christians seem to "know" the right thing yet live the same as anybody else is a false dichotomy and a typilogical symptom of postmodernism (or you may prefer "epistemological humility"!!!) Jarrods presentation in and of itself was didactic and instructive in its approach and delivered in a way that is calculated to affect peoples attitudes and manifest in their actions??? - wasnt he trying to impart kowledge so as to get people to act a certain way??

Notwithsanding that, Ido believe that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy - right beliefs and motives will lead to the right actions. Your proposition about what Cristians allegedly "know" can not even be supported factually - It is unequivocal the biblical illiteracy and ignorace about foundational and non-negotiable Christian doctrines and beliefs have never been worse. Subsequently they have never been more attacked and undermimed either.

If people are professing Christ and yet they do not manifest over time, fruits of good works and obedience to the LAW (which - I'm sorry - you were preaching i.e. love God and love you neighbour???) then I would submit that it is questionable as to whether God has done the work of salvation in their heart at all - thus the question then needs to be - do we try to disciple a goat to act like a sheep or do we present Christ and him crucified for our sins to such a person whos life seems to be unconformed to their profession of faith - the latter is clearly our comission. Let this work be first and foremost and the other works will flow as a natural consequence - the tree is not cognisant that it is even bringing forth fruit "Lord, when did we do these things" (Matt 25: 31-46)

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 10:58am

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 11:52pm

I meant to say 'reveal the kingdom ON Earth' not 'reveal the kingdom earth' Ha!

by: mosco

05-11-2009 @ 4:37am

mako80 -

You can oversimplify what I said as a vainity and indicative of someone who doesnt care about the poor and opressed "just wanting a guarantee into heaven" - this is a standard response and a architypal emergent strawman argument.

The assertion that Christians seem to "know" the right thing yet live the same as anybody else is a false dichotomy and a typilogical symptom of postmodernism (or you may prefer "epistemological humility"!!!) Jarrods presentation in and of itself was didactic and instructive in its approach and delivered in a way that is calculated to affect peoples attitudes and manifest in their actions??? - wasnt he trying to impart kowledge so as to get people to act a certain way??

Notwithsanding that, Ido believe that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy - right beliefs and motives will lead to the right actions. Your proposition about what Cristians allegedly "know" can not even be supported factually - It is unequivocal the biblical illiteracy and ignorace about foundational and non-negotiable Christian doctrines and beliefs have never been worse. Subsequently they have never been more attacked and undermimed either.

If people are professing Christ and yet they do not manifest over time, fruits of good works and obedience to the LAW (which - I'm sorry - you were preaching i.e. love God and love you neighbour???) then I would submit that it is questionable as to whether God has done the work of salvation in their heart at all - thus the question then needs to be - do we try to disciple a goat to act like a sheep or do we present Christ and him crucified for our sins to such a person whos life seems to be unconformed to their profession of faith - the latter is clearly our comission. Let this work be first and foremost and the other works will flow as a natural consequence - the tree is not cognisant that it is even bringing forth fruit "Lord, when did we do these things" (Matt 25: 31-46)

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 10:58am

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: mosco

05-06-2009 @ 12:34am

Hi Jarrod,

Heard you speak at Riverview. I appreciate where you are coming from but I have to say that , unless I misunderstand you, violence (and yes - war) is warranted and necessary at times. You spoke of your potentially dangerous confrontation with that fellow at the Warwick train station overpass in Perth. I wonder what you would have done if your wife and child were present and exposed to danger. I was a police officer for 13 years and I can tell you without shame that in my 13 year service I have had to resort to violent force (fortunately never lethal) in order to protect life and property in my service to the community. I would have done the same for you as it was my God appointed vocation. We had a famous saying in the police - "I would rather be tried by twelve than be carried by six".

With respect - besides your views of "non-violence" (which again unless I am mistaken, I find a bit disingenuous) all I heard you preach mate was Law, Law and more LAW - I heard you say "Gospel" a few times but where was the Gospel?? - Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and repentance and faith in that Jesus on whom we trust for our justification - not works of the law which are powerless to save (Eph 2:8)

The Gospel is ours to proclaim - not to edit....

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 12:58pm

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: mosco

05-06-2009 @ 12:34am

Hi Jarrod,

Heard you speak at Riverview. I appreciate where you are coming from but I have to say that , unless I misunderstand you, violence (and yes - war) is warranted and necessary at times. You spoke of your potentially dangerous confrontation with that fellow at the Warwick train station overpass in Perth. I wonder what you would have done if your wife and child were present and exposed to danger. I was a police officer for 13 years and I can tell you without shame that in my 13 year service I have had to resort to violent force (fortunately never lethal) in order to protect life and property in my service to the community. I would have done the same for you as it was my God appointed vocation. We had a famous saying in the police - "I would rather be tried by twelve than be carried by six".

With respect - besides your views of "non-violence" (which again unless I am mistaken, I find a bit disingenuous) all I heard you preach mate was Law, Law and more LAW - I heard you say "Gospel" a few times but where was the Gospel?? - Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and repentance and faith in that Jesus on whom we trust for our justification - not works of the law which are powerless to save (Eph 2:8)

The Gospel is ours to proclaim - not to edit....

by: mak80

05-06-2009 @ 10:17pm

Hi Mosco

Yes I was also at Riverview that night, and I must say was challenged and inspired by Jarrod. I am lead to believe that the Gospel is the good news, that this good news can not be seperated from non-violence and that God's Kingdom breaking in (as the Lord's prayer suggests) is happening here and amongst us. That this is the good news, and that our lives are to proclaim it and witness to God's glory.

Ephesians 2:8 does make it clear that Salvation is from Christ, and not from our works, however I believe you can not read this verse without also reading the entire passage, esp verse 10.

I don't believe that Sunday's nights message was a Law based message, Rather a challenge to see the cross as more than a 'means-to-the-end' object. I fear many Christians see the death and resurrection as simply a faith story that guarantees them a ticket into heaven, rather than ackowledge the Gospel does challenge how we live. That the message in the cross is more than after-life insurance, its a model of our love, compassion and commitment to Kingdom values,

I say thankyou to Jarrod for this reminder and challenge in how we live out our faith. For the last thing we want is to be known as Christians who 'know' the right thing, but live the same as anybody else. Im glad our hope is counter-cultural and for me this must include a stance against voilence and a step towards loving my enemies.

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 4:59am

Hey Mosco and Mak80,

Love this discussion. I think there is something to be said for the tension in that passage in Ephesians and how we negotiate that in our lived experiences.

I was also there on Sunday night and found the teaching both challenging and exciting.

In response to your question of the presence of the 'gospel'. I guess I thought of it in this way, Adi Leason says "the good news is the end of the bad news". The end of the bad news is tpartly about the Kingdom of heaven breaking in here on Earth as it did with Jesus and as it should with us - the church. So looking to live in such ways that reveal the kingdom Earth is central to the gospel and certainly evident in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. And from what I understood this was the challenge Jarrod was posing, that our lives should express the non-violent love revealed in Jesus in practical ways which speak to the Kingdom of God breaking through. This is totally in fitting with the passage in Ephesians to which you referred,

"You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better then we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can boast about. God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are." Ephesians 2: 8-10

I'm pretty sure Jarrod quoted Desmond Tutu saying to a journalist about Osama Bin Laden, "Osama, you are a child of God. Act like it" and to George Bush "George Bush you are a child of God. Act like it" I think that's the point of what I'm trying to say. Yes we are children of God and saved by grace but now we must act on that. God loved us so we must love others.

If anyone is wondering where they can listen to the teaching that has inspired this conversation it is available at

http://media.riverviewchurch.com.au/podcast/200...

Enjoy!

by: mak80

05-06-2009 @ 10:17pm

Hi Mosco

Yes I was also at Riverview that night, and I must say was challenged and inspired by Jarrod. I am lead to believe that the Gospel is the good news, that this good news can not be seperated from non-violence and that God's Kingdom breaking in (as the Lord's prayer suggests) is happening here and amongst us. That this is the good news, and that our lives are to proclaim it and witness to God's glory.

Ephesians 2:8 does make it clear that Salvation is from Christ, and not from our works, however I believe you can not read this verse without also reading the entire passage, esp verse 10.

I don't believe that Sunday's nights message was a Law based message, Rather a challenge to see the cross as more than a 'means-to-the-end' object. I fear many Christians see the death and resurrection as simply a faith story that guarantees them a ticket into heaven, rather than ackowledge the Gospel does challenge how we live. That the message in the cross is more than after-life insurance, its a model of our love, compassion and commitment to Kingdom values,

I say thankyou to Jarrod for this reminder and challenge in how we live out our faith. For the last thing we want is to be known as Christians who 'know' the right thing, but live the same as anybody else. Im glad our hope is counter-cultural and for me this must include a stance against voilence and a step towards loving my enemies.

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 4:59am

Hey Mosco and Mak80,

Love this discussion. I think there is something to be said for the tension in that passage in Ephesians and how we negotiate that in our lived experiences.

I was also there on Sunday night and found the teaching both challenging and exciting.

In response to your question of the presence of the 'gospel'. I guess I thought of it in this way, Adi Leason says "the good news is the end of the bad news". The end of the bad news is tpartly about the Kingdom of heaven breaking in here on Earth as it did with Jesus and as it should with us - the church. So looking to live in such ways that reveal the kingdom Earth is central to the gospel and certainly evident in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. And from what I understood this was the challenge Jarrod was posing, that our lives should express the non-violent love revealed in Jesus in practical ways which speak to the Kingdom of God breaking through. This is totally in fitting with the passage in Ephesians to which you referred,

"You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better then we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can boast about. God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are." Ephesians 2: 8-10

I'm pretty sure Jarrod quoted Desmond Tutu saying to a journalist about Osama Bin Laden, "Osama, you are a child of God. Act like it" and to George Bush "George Bush you are a child of God. Act like it" I think that's the point of what I'm trying to say. Yes we are children of God and saved by grace but now we must act on that. God loved us so we must love others.

If anyone is wondering where they can listen to the teaching that has inspired this conversation it is available at

http://media.riverviewchurch.com.au/podcast/200...

Enjoy!

by: letjusticerolldown

05-01-2009 @ 4:19pm

Thank you for being on the journey. Love God. Love neighbor. Love the brother and sister who are also on the journey. You will find those on the path hail from many different places--in all shapes and sizes. You will be a blessing to them. And they to you.

by: BlueDeacon

05-01-2009 @ 5:07pm

Refreshing. To too many American Christians being a "faithful Christian" is tantamount to defeating "enemies" -- forgetting that at one point each one of us was an enemy to God. I have to teach a Bible study tonight, and of the passages is the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. As such, it's important to keep in mind who we are as believers -- and not necessarily what we're not. (That was the Pharisees' problem; they compared themselves to everyone else rather than to holy God -- do that and you'll see the need for His grace.)

by: letjusticerolldown

05-01-2009 @ 4:19pm

Thank you for being on the journey. Love God. Love neighbor. Love the brother and sister who are also on the journey. You will find those on the path hail from many different places--in all shapes and sizes. You will be a blessing to them. And they to you.

by: BlueDeacon

05-01-2009 @ 5:07pm

Refreshing. To too many American Christians being a "faithful Christian" is tantamount to defeating "enemies" -- forgetting that at one point each one of us was an enemy to God. I have to teach a Bible study tonight, and of the passages is the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. As such, it's important to keep in mind who we are as believers -- and not necessarily what we're not. (That was the Pharisees' problem; they compared themselves to everyone else rather than to holy God -- do that and you'll see the need for His grace.)

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 4:21pm

Could we have a translation into American? I have never heard of "whinging". I guess it must be an Australian term. Our languages are similar but not identical.

by: BlueDeacon

05-02-2009 @ 7:26pm

He actually gave it -- just remove the first "g."

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 7:57pm

Oh, was it a typo?

by: jeffp

05-02-2009 @ 10:10pm

good article. BTW, Hillsong is part of a group that has a long history of helping the poor.

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 12:58pm

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: letjusticerolldown

05-01-2009 @ 4:19pm

Thank you for being on the journey. Love God. Love neighbor. Love the brother and sister who are also on the journey. You will find those on the path hail from many different places--in all shapes and sizes. You will be a blessing to them. And they to you.

by: letjusticerolldown

05-01-2009 @ 4:19pm

Thank you for being on the journey. Love God. Love neighbor. Love the brother and sister who are also on the journey. You will find those on the path hail from many different places--in all shapes and sizes. You will be a blessing to them. And they to you.

by: BlueDeacon

05-01-2009 @ 5:07pm

Refreshing. To too many American Christians being a "faithful Christian" is tantamount to defeating "enemies" -- forgetting that at one point each one of us was an enemy to God. I have to teach a Bible study tonight, and of the passages is the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. As such, it's important to keep in mind who we are as believers -- and not necessarily what we're not. (That was the Pharisees' problem; they compared themselves to everyone else rather than to holy God -- do that and you'll see the need for His grace.)

by: BlueDeacon

05-01-2009 @ 5:07pm

Refreshing. To too many American Christians being a "faithful Christian" is tantamount to defeating "enemies" -- forgetting that at one point each one of us was an enemy to God. I have to teach a Bible study tonight, and of the passages is the parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector. As such, it's important to keep in mind who we are as believers -- and not necessarily what we're not. (That was the Pharisees' problem; they compared themselves to everyone else rather than to holy God -- do that and you'll see the need for His grace.)

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 4:21pm

Could we have a translation into American? I have never heard of "whinging". I guess it must be an Australian term. Our languages are similar but not identical.

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 4:21pm

Could we have a translation into American? I have never heard of "whinging". I guess it must be an Australian term. Our languages are similar but not identical.

by: BlueDeacon

05-02-2009 @ 7:26pm

He actually gave it -- just remove the first "g."

by: BlueDeacon

05-02-2009 @ 7:26pm

He actually gave it -- just remove the first "g."

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 7:57pm

Oh, was it a typo?

by: BillSamuel

05-02-2009 @ 7:57pm

Oh, was it a typo?

by: jeffp

05-02-2009 @ 10:10pm

good article. BTW, Hillsong is part of a group that has a long history of helping the poor.

by: jeffp

05-02-2009 @ 10:10pm

good article. BTW, Hillsong is part of a group that has a long history of helping the poor.

by: BlueDeacon

05-04-2009 @ 7:01pm

Nope -- just a difference in spelling.

by: BlueDeacon

05-04-2009 @ 7:01pm

Nope -- just a difference in spelling.

by: mosco

05-06-2009 @ 12:34am

Hi Jarrod,

Heard you speak at Riverview. I appreciate where you are coming from but I have to say that , unless I misunderstand you, violence (and yes - war) is warranted and necessary at times. You spoke of your potentially dangerous confrontation with that fellow at the Warwick train station overpass in Perth. I wonder what you would have done if your wife and child were present and exposed to danger. I was a police officer for 13 years and I can tell you without shame that in my 13 year service I have had to resort to violent force (fortunately never lethal) in order to protect life and property in my service to the community. I would have done the same for you as it was my God appointed vocation. We had a famous saying in the police - "I would rather be tried by twelve than be carried by six".

With respect - besides your views of "non-violence" (which again unless I am mistaken, I find a bit disingenuous) all I heard you preach mate was Law, Law and more LAW - I heard you say "Gospel" a few times but where was the Gospel?? - Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and repentance and faith in that Jesus on whom we trust for our justification - not works of the law which are powerless to save (Eph 2:8)

The Gospel is ours to proclaim - not to edit....

by: mosco

05-06-2009 @ 12:34am

Hi Jarrod,

Heard you speak at Riverview. I appreciate where you are coming from but I have to say that , unless I misunderstand you, violence (and yes - war) is warranted and necessary at times. You spoke of your potentially dangerous confrontation with that fellow at the Warwick train station overpass in Perth. I wonder what you would have done if your wife and child were present and exposed to danger. I was a police officer for 13 years and I can tell you without shame that in my 13 year service I have had to resort to violent force (fortunately never lethal) in order to protect life and property in my service to the community. I would have done the same for you as it was my God appointed vocation. We had a famous saying in the police - "I would rather be tried by twelve than be carried by six".

With respect - besides your views of "non-violence" (which again unless I am mistaken, I find a bit disingenuous) all I heard you preach mate was Law, Law and more LAW - I heard you say "Gospel" a few times but where was the Gospel?? - Jesus Christ crucified for our sins and repentance and faith in that Jesus on whom we trust for our justification - not works of the law which are powerless to save (Eph 2:8)

The Gospel is ours to proclaim - not to edit....

by: mak80

05-06-2009 @ 10:17pm

Hi Mosco

Yes I was also at Riverview that night, and I must say was challenged and inspired by Jarrod. I am lead to believe that the Gospel is the good news, that this good news can not be seperated from non-violence and that God's Kingdom breaking in (as the Lord's prayer suggests) is happening here and amongst us. That this is the good news, and that our lives are to proclaim it and witness to God's glory.

Ephesians 2:8 does make it clear that Salvation is from Christ, and not from our works, however I believe you can not read this verse without also reading the entire passage, esp verse 10.

I don't believe that Sunday's nights message was a Law based message, Rather a challenge to see the cross as more than a 'means-to-the-end' object. I fear many Christians see the death and resurrection as simply a faith story that guarantees them a ticket into heaven, rather than ackowledge the Gospel does challenge how we live. That the message in the cross is more than after-life insurance, its a model of our love, compassion and commitment to Kingdom values,

I say thankyou to Jarrod for this reminder and challenge in how we live out our faith. For the last thing we want is to be known as Christians who 'know' the right thing, but live the same as anybody else. Im glad our hope is counter-cultural and for me this must include a stance against voilence and a step towards loving my enemies.

by: mak80

05-06-2009 @ 10:17pm

Hi Mosco

Yes I was also at Riverview that night, and I must say was challenged and inspired by Jarrod. I am lead to believe that the Gospel is the good news, that this good news can not be seperated from non-violence and that God's Kingdom breaking in (as the Lord's prayer suggests) is happening here and amongst us. That this is the good news, and that our lives are to proclaim it and witness to God's glory.

Ephesians 2:8 does make it clear that Salvation is from Christ, and not from our works, however I believe you can not read this verse without also reading the entire passage, esp verse 10.

I don't believe that Sunday's nights message was a Law based message, Rather a challenge to see the cross as more than a 'means-to-the-end' object. I fear many Christians see the death and resurrection as simply a faith story that guarantees them a ticket into heaven, rather than ackowledge the Gospel does challenge how we live. That the message in the cross is more than after-life insurance, its a model of our love, compassion and commitment to Kingdom values,

I say thankyou to Jarrod for this reminder and challenge in how we live out our faith. For the last thing we want is to be known as Christians who 'know' the right thing, but live the same as anybody else. Im glad our hope is counter-cultural and for me this must include a stance against voilence and a step towards loving my enemies.

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 4:59am

Hey Mosco and Mak80,

Love this discussion. I think there is something to be said for the tension in that passage in Ephesians and how we negotiate that in our lived experiences.

I was also there on Sunday night and found the teaching both challenging and exciting.

In response to your question of the presence of the 'gospel'. I guess I thought of it in this way, Adi Leason says "the good news is the end of the bad news". The end of the bad news is tpartly about the Kingdom of heaven breaking in here on Earth as it did with Jesus and as it should with us - the church. So looking to live in such ways that reveal the kingdom Earth is central to the gospel and certainly evident in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. And from what I understood this was the challenge Jarrod was posing, that our lives should express the non-violent love revealed in Jesus in practical ways which speak to the Kingdom of God breaking through. This is totally in fitting with the passage in Ephesians to which you referred,

"You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better then we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can boast about. God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are." Ephesians 2: 8-10

I'm pretty sure Jarrod quoted Desmond Tutu saying to a journalist about Osama Bin Laden, "Osama, you are a child of God. Act like it" and to George Bush "George Bush you are a child of God. Act like it" I think that's the point of what I'm trying to say. Yes we are children of God and saved by grace but now we must act on that. God loved us so we must love others.

If anyone is wondering where they can listen to the teaching that has inspired this conversation it is available at

http://media.riverviewchurch.com.au/podcast/200...

Enjoy!

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 4:59am

Hey Mosco and Mak80,

Love this discussion. I think there is something to be said for the tension in that passage in Ephesians and how we negotiate that in our lived experiences.

I was also there on Sunday night and found the teaching both challenging and exciting.

In response to your question of the presence of the 'gospel'. I guess I thought of it in this way, Adi Leason says "the good news is the end of the bad news". The end of the bad news is tpartly about the Kingdom of heaven breaking in here on Earth as it did with Jesus and as it should with us - the church. So looking to live in such ways that reveal the kingdom Earth is central to the gospel and certainly evident in the life, death and ressurection of Jesus. And from what I understood this was the challenge Jarrod was posing, that our lives should express the non-violent love revealed in Jesus in practical ways which speak to the Kingdom of God breaking through. This is totally in fitting with the passage in Ephesians to which you referred,

"You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better then we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can boast about. God planned for us to do good things and to live as he has always wanted us to live. That's why he sent Christ to make us what we are." Ephesians 2: 8-10

I'm pretty sure Jarrod quoted Desmond Tutu saying to a journalist about Osama Bin Laden, "Osama, you are a child of God. Act like it" and to George Bush "George Bush you are a child of God. Act like it" I think that's the point of what I'm trying to say. Yes we are children of God and saved by grace but now we must act on that. God loved us so we must love others.

If anyone is wondering where they can listen to the teaching that has inspired this conversation it is available at

http://media.riverviewchurch.com.au/podcast/200...

Enjoy!

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 11:52pm

I meant to say 'reveal the kingdom ON Earth' not 'reveal the kingdom earth' Ha!

by: EmmaPal

05-07-2009 @ 11:52pm

I meant to say 'reveal the kingdom ON Earth' not 'reveal the kingdom earth' Ha!

by: mosco

05-11-2009 @ 4:37am

mako80 -

You can oversimplify what I said as a vainity and indicative of someone who doesnt care about the poor and opressed "just wanting a guarantee into heaven" - this is a standard response and a architypal emergent strawman argument.

The assertion that Christians seem to "know" the right thing yet live the same as anybody else is a false dichotomy and a typilogical symptom of postmodernism (or you may prefer "epistemological humility"!!!) Jarrods presentation in and of itself was didactic and instructive in its approach and delivered in a way that is calculated to affect peoples attitudes and manifest in their actions??? - wasnt he trying to impart kowledge so as to get people to act a certain way??

Notwithsanding that, Ido believe that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy - right beliefs and motives will lead to the right actions. Your proposition about what Cristians allegedly "know" can not even be supported factually - It is unequivocal the biblical illiteracy and ignorace about foundational and non-negotiable Christian doctrines and beliefs have never been worse. Subsequently they have never been more attacked and undermimed either.

If people are professing Christ and yet they do not manifest over time, fruits of good works and obedience to the LAW (which - I'm sorry - you were preaching i.e. love God and love you neighbour???) then I would submit that it is questionable as to whether God has done the work of salvation in their heart at all - thus the question then needs to be - do we try to disciple a goat to act like a sheep or do we present Christ and him crucified for our sins to such a person whos life seems to be unconformed to their profession of faith - the latter is clearly our comission. Let this work be first and foremost and the other works will flow as a natural consequence - the tree is not cognisant that it is even bringing forth fruit "Lord, when did we do these things" (Matt 25: 31-46)

by: mosco

05-11-2009 @ 4:37am

mako80 -

You can oversimplify what I said as a vainity and indicative of someone who doesnt care about the poor and opressed "just wanting a guarantee into heaven" - this is a standard response and a architypal emergent strawman argument.

The assertion that Christians seem to "know" the right thing yet live the same as anybody else is a false dichotomy and a typilogical symptom of postmodernism (or you may prefer "epistemological humility"!!!) Jarrods presentation in and of itself was didactic and instructive in its approach and delivered in a way that is calculated to affect peoples attitudes and manifest in their actions??? - wasnt he trying to impart kowledge so as to get people to act a certain way??

Notwithsanding that, Ido believe that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy - right beliefs and motives will lead to the right actions. Your proposition about what Cristians allegedly "know" can not even be supported factually - It is unequivocal the biblical illiteracy and ignorace about foundational and non-negotiable Christian doctrines and beliefs have never been worse. Subsequently they have never been more attacked and undermimed either.

If people are professing Christ and yet they do not manifest over time, fruits of good works and obedience to the LAW (which - I'm sorry - you were preaching i.e. love God and love you neighbour???) then I would submit that it is questionable as to whether God has done the work of salvation in their heart at all - thus the question then needs to be - do we try to disciple a goat to act like a sheep or do we present Christ and him crucified for our sins to such a person whos life seems to be unconformed to their profession of faith - the latter is clearly our comission. Let this work be first and foremost and the other works will flow as a natural consequence - the tree is not cognisant that it is even bringing forth fruit "Lord, when did we do these things" (Matt 25: 31-46)

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 10:58am

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 10:58am

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 12:58pm

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.

by: Lionfiish

05-18-2009 @ 12:58pm

I listened in on Jarrod's sermon and have to say that it was the most closely aligned teaching to the Gospel (and what my heart says is right) at Riverview since, I guess the Rev spoke there one Sunday night a few years ago.

I did not hear Law being preached. I really hope that there can be real change in the mega-Church. Like your young friend I feel that it would be easier for the terrorist group to repent than the WOF/Prosperity proponents...

I do have to say that those who 'whinge' about the financial & spiritual abuses of the mega-Church may be no more idealistic than those who protest at US miltary bases.

When the Bible is read In context, there will be times when the authorities may have to bring the sword.