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Dogma and Disagreement

I recently found myself in conversation with a fellow believer who asked where I stood on the "non-negotiable" issues that seemed to him definitive for voting Christians. For him, as for quite a few others, the issues that divided the faithful from the wayward were abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research. These matters continue to be of grave concern to all of us who care about the terms on which we choose life and sustain it.

But the question bothered me for two reasons. First, it seemed to shut off discussion of the complexities of those issues, and of the relationships of church to state and faith to science-relationships that deserve not to be reduced to bumper-sticker politics. Second, it brought me back to a question I've revisited over the years: What is the relationship of dogma, in its most positive sense, to the wide range of scriptural matters upon which reasonable, prayerful Christians disagree? The question of which scriptural teachings are "non-negotiable," and which bear multiple plausible interpretations, continues to divide the church, as it has ever since Peter and Paul debated the circumcision and dietary laws.

Each generation of readers comes to scripture equipped, first of all, with the assurance that, when we enter into relationship with a living God who guides us in spirit and in truth, we can receive what we need. We are called to read those texts not only in private devotions, but also in community, where those who are ordained to preach and teach can offer correctives and open up implications of what we find there. Ideally, in the conversations that follow, we learn to listen for the Spirit in the approaches others take to texts we necessarily read as persons enmeshed in our own cultural matrices and assumptions.

Of course, the ongoing history of hermeneutical disputes among denominations and congregations also bears witness to the very human dimension of the church: We work out our salvation in the midst of deep differences and petty squabbles over how to read, how to discern what the Spirit teaches, where to lay the emphasis, how to understand what is foundational and what is, as theologians put it, adiaphora-not a matter on which full agreement is necessary for a shared life of faith.

In the course of explicating propositional claims and the texts that support them, we always run some risk of reducing faith to a matter of intellectual assent. We risk forgetting that it is first and foremost a lived relationship with a living God-one who not only told the truth but who, more shockingly, proclaimed, "I am the truth." This astonishing act of identification changes the terms on which we are to understand truth: truth is rooted and grounded in an intimate life of learning to love Jesus, who both stands revealed before us and is hidden in mystery until he comes in glory.

Marilyn McEntyre, author of Caring for Words in a Culture of Lies: Stewardship of Language in a Culture of Lies (Eerdmans, May 2009), is a Fellow at the Gaede Institute for the Liberal Arts, Westmont College.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 4:51pm

"I recently found myself in conversation with a fellow believer who asked where I stood on the "non-negotiable" issues that seemed to him definitive for voting Christians. For him, as for quite a few others, the issues that divided the faithful from the wayward were abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research."

What about war and peace? What about the use of torture? What about poverty and exploitation? All of these are prominantly featured in the Bible. For that matter, if we stick strictly to "sexual" issues, there are the issues of adultery and divorce. I gather that these issues aren't "hot" enough so they don't count either?

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 5:24pm

They don't raise a lot of money or passion. See, it's a lot easier to oppose something rather than favor something else because, frankly, hate still sells. Handsomely.

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 5:51pm

That has a lot of truth to it, but doesn't it contradict what Obama ran an entire campaign on...Hope?

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 10:24am

"I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal."

And yet torture was practiced for eight years, with very little protest from many sectors of the Christian community (my church and pastor protested, but we were considered "left wing" for doing so). There have been threads here that discuss recent Pew polls showing that a majority of White Evangelicals (not sure how "Evangelical" is defined in these polls) support the use of torture.

As for poverty, it's terrible. And yet, I don't see too many fund raising letters or emails from the AFA or other similar groups protesting poverty. Instead, I've read missives from too many people that state that people who are poor got that way through their own failings.

Adultery/divorce is "not ideal." And yet it's widely practiced. So where are all of the campaigns to combat these social evils?

"On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians. There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate."

I still think that it's easier for Religious Right fundraisers and campaigners to campaign against "outside" groups and individuals -- not only Gays but Mexican immigrants. And sometimes Muslims.

Campaigning against divorce or adultery means campaigning against possible friends and adherents. Campaigning against Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims means that one can campaign against "the others" who are considered outside the pale and not risk offending fellow colleagues.

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 6:11pm

He actually said, "My Kingdom is not from this world." The preposition has been badly translated, while in many languages the english word of and from share the same word.

Either way you look at it, it does not mean that His Kingdom is not for this world. Because that is exactly what his Kingdom is for...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

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by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 6:20pm

Perhaps, but much of that "hope" was colored by contempt for GWB. Obama's popularity will, at least for the time being, hinge on how different he acts from the last White House occupant.

by: ando

05-19-2009 @ 6:34pm

Ironically, Sojo uses politics to forward its agenda. I'd like to see a poll of what percentage of Sojo supporter svote Democrat. Basically, we want to dislike the people who we believe are to the "right" politically, but then we want to promote our own agendas, such as poverty, climate change and the like. One side calls it politics, the other calls it principle, and vice versa.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 6:40pm

Well, we could oppose divorce, adultery, teen-age pregnancy. But I guess it's a lot easier to target people in "out" and "other" groups (as I said before: Gay people and Mexican immigrants). After all, these "outcast" groups are very easy to hate.

by: SisterMarie

05-20-2009 @ 3:10pm

They need an adversary. I believe it was Mark Twain who asked what all of us Christians would do when the Devil got saved. Put another way, if the Devil didn't exist, we Christians would have invented him.

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08-24-2009 @ 2:38am

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by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 4:55pm

You are correct. What these people need is an "other." They need an alien group, an outcast group. To these people, Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are all "other"; they're not a part of "us." So therefore, they can be used as convenient scapegoats for their campaigns.

Back during the Jim Crow era, Blacks were also an "other", "outcast" group. Now they have been included in some quarters: though in other quarters, Blacks are still part of the "other." However, within the "mainstream" sectors of the Religious Right, Blacks are included -- but Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are not; they are part of "other" groups that can be demonized.

by: craztek

05-19-2009 @ 11:09pm

I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal.
On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians.
There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate.

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 10:24am

"I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal."

And yet torture was practiced for eight years, with very little protest from many sectors of the Christian community (my church and pastor protested, but we were considered "left wing" for doing so). There have been threads here that discuss recent Pew polls showing that a majority of White Evangelicals (not sure how "Evangelical" is defined in these polls) support the use of torture.

As for poverty, it's terrible. And yet, I don't see too many fund raising letters or emails from the AFA or other similar groups protesting poverty. Instead, I've read missives from too many people that state that people who are poor got that way through their own failings.

Adultery/divorce is "not ideal." And yet it's widely practiced. So where are all of the campaigns to combat these social evils?

"On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians. There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate."

I still think that it's easier for Religious Right fundraisers and campaigners to campaign against "outside" groups and individuals -- not only Gays but Mexican immigrants. And sometimes Muslims.

Campaigning against divorce or adultery means campaigning against possible friends and adherents. Campaigning against Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims means that one can campaign against "the others" who are considered outside the pale and not risk offending fellow colleagues.

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08-24-2009 @ 2:38am

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Cheers,
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by: SisterMarie

05-20-2009 @ 3:10pm

They need an adversary. I believe it was Mark Twain who asked what all of us Christians would do when the Devil got saved. Put another way, if the Devil didn't exist, we Christians would have invented him.

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by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 4:55pm

You are correct. What these people need is an "other." They need an alien group, an outcast group. To these people, Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are all "other"; they're not a part of "us." So therefore, they can be used as convenient scapegoats for their campaigns.

Back during the Jim Crow era, Blacks were also an "other", "outcast" group. Now they have been included in some quarters: though in other quarters, Blacks are still part of the "other." However, within the "mainstream" sectors of the Religious Right, Blacks are included -- but Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are not; they are part of "other" groups that can be demonized.

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by: Ngchen

05-19-2009 @ 1:28pm

What about the possibility that there is not a *political* issue that is non-negotiable at all? After all, Jesus did say that his kingdom was not of this world.

by: cmpnwtr

05-19-2009 @ 2:15pm

It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms. Hence, "followers of Jesus are those who adopt my policy positions... all else are not true followers." There is very little that is credal that Christians agree on, much less what is non credal. And the last time I looked the Nicene or Athanasian creed said anything explicit about gay marriage, abortion, or stem cell research. Scriptures are also very non-explicit, with the exception of the Mosaic law which is not about dogma anyway. In America every little fundamentalist congregation or denomination seems to be fixating on who is one of us,and who is against us. And any one who doesn't believe as I do, is of the anti-Christ, whether it be evolution, homosexuality or whatever. These ever tightening and ever changing definitions of who is the real Christian are great ones for feeling righteous, but not about communicating for understanding or common ground.

by: xfree9

05-19-2009 @ 3:11pm

Very true, but Jesus did not imply that the Kingdom didn't affect the physical world.

But I agree... we politicize too many of these issues.

by: 1Grace

05-19-2009 @ 4:00pm

"It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms.

cmpnwtr,

Yes I agree . I have seen this fist hand years ago when I first became politically active . I have also seen it in on the other side odf the spectrum with as much self righteousness and religious spirit . It would make more sense to write about that here since the host is from a more leftward viewpoint . Criticism is always better accpeted and more trustworthy when it is pointed inward and not at another , especially when Faith is concerned . It appears here it is used politically , its not appearing to our Better Angels , once again it is saying we are the Better Angels . Big difference .

.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 4:51pm

"I recently found myself in conversation with a fellow believer who asked where I stood on the "non-negotiable" issues that seemed to him definitive for voting Christians. For him, as for quite a few others, the issues that divided the faithful from the wayward were abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research."

What about war and peace? What about the use of torture? What about poverty and exploitation? All of these are prominantly featured in the Bible. For that matter, if we stick strictly to "sexual" issues, there are the issues of adultery and divorce. I gather that these issues aren't "hot" enough so they don't count either?

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 5:24pm

They don't raise a lot of money or passion. See, it's a lot easier to oppose something rather than favor something else because, frankly, hate still sells. Handsomely.

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 5:51pm

That has a lot of truth to it, but doesn't it contradict what Obama ran an entire campaign on...Hope?

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 6:11pm

He actually said, "My Kingdom is not from this world." The preposition has been badly translated, while in many languages the english word of and from share the same word.

Either way you look at it, it does not mean that His Kingdom is not for this world. Because that is exactly what his Kingdom is for...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 6:20pm

Perhaps, but much of that "hope" was colored by contempt for GWB. Obama's popularity will, at least for the time being, hinge on how different he acts from the last White House occupant.

by: ando

05-19-2009 @ 6:34pm

Ironically, Sojo uses politics to forward its agenda. I'd like to see a poll of what percentage of Sojo supporter svote Democrat. Basically, we want to dislike the people who we believe are to the "right" politically, but then we want to promote our own agendas, such as poverty, climate change and the like. One side calls it politics, the other calls it principle, and vice versa.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 6:40pm

Well, we could oppose divorce, adultery, teen-age pregnancy. But I guess it's a lot easier to target people in "out" and "other" groups (as I said before: Gay people and Mexican immigrants). After all, these "outcast" groups are very easy to hate.

by: Sweet_Home_Improvement

08-24-2009 @ 4:38am

This is quite impressive, I am pleased to read this post, keep posts like this coming, you totally rock!
Cheers,
sweethomeimprove.com

by: Ngchen

05-19-2009 @ 1:28pm

What about the possibility that there is not a *political* issue that is non-negotiable at all? After all, Jesus did say that his kingdom was not of this world.

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by: craztek

05-19-2009 @ 11:09pm

I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal.
On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians.
There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate.

by: cmpnwtr

05-19-2009 @ 2:15pm

It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms. Hence, "followers of Jesus are those who adopt my policy positions... all else are not true followers." There is very little that is credal that Christians agree on, much less what is non credal. And the last time I looked the Nicene or Athanasian creed said anything explicit about gay marriage, abortion, or stem cell research. Scriptures are also very non-explicit, with the exception of the Mosaic law which is not about dogma anyway. In America every little fundamentalist congregation or denomination seems to be fixating on who is one of us,and who is against us. And any one who doesn't believe as I do, is of the anti-Christ, whether it be evolution, homosexuality or whatever. These ever tightening and ever changing definitions of who is the real Christian are great ones for feeling righteous, but not about communicating for understanding or common ground.

by: xfree9

05-19-2009 @ 3:11pm

Very true, but Jesus did not imply that the Kingdom didn't affect the physical world.

But I agree... we politicize too many of these issues.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: Ngchen

05-19-2009 @ 1:28pm

What about the possibility that there is not a *political* issue that is non-negotiable at all? After all, Jesus did say that his kingdom was not of this world.

by: Ngchen

05-19-2009 @ 1:28pm

What about the possibility that there is not a *political* issue that is non-negotiable at all? After all, Jesus did say that his kingdom was not of this world.

by: cmpnwtr

05-19-2009 @ 2:15pm

It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms. Hence, "followers of Jesus are those who adopt my policy positions... all else are not true followers." There is very little that is credal that Christians agree on, much less what is non credal. And the last time I looked the Nicene or Athanasian creed said anything explicit about gay marriage, abortion, or stem cell research. Scriptures are also very non-explicit, with the exception of the Mosaic law which is not about dogma anyway. In America every little fundamentalist congregation or denomination seems to be fixating on who is one of us,and who is against us. And any one who doesn't believe as I do, is of the anti-Christ, whether it be evolution, homosexuality or whatever. These ever tightening and ever changing definitions of who is the real Christian are great ones for feeling righteous, but not about communicating for understanding or common ground.

by: cmpnwtr

05-19-2009 @ 2:15pm

It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms. Hence, "followers of Jesus are those who adopt my policy positions... all else are not true followers." There is very little that is credal that Christians agree on, much less what is non credal. And the last time I looked the Nicene or Athanasian creed said anything explicit about gay marriage, abortion, or stem cell research. Scriptures are also very non-explicit, with the exception of the Mosaic law which is not about dogma anyway. In America every little fundamentalist congregation or denomination seems to be fixating on who is one of us,and who is against us. And any one who doesn't believe as I do, is of the anti-Christ, whether it be evolution, homosexuality or whatever. These ever tightening and ever changing definitions of who is the real Christian are great ones for feeling righteous, but not about communicating for understanding or common ground.

by: xfree9

05-19-2009 @ 3:11pm

Very true, but Jesus did not imply that the Kingdom didn't affect the physical world.

But I agree... we politicize too many of these issues.

by: xfree9

05-19-2009 @ 3:11pm

Very true, but Jesus did not imply that the Kingdom didn't affect the physical world.

But I agree... we politicize too many of these issues.

by: 1Grace

05-19-2009 @ 4:00pm

"It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms.

cmpnwtr,

Yes I agree . I have seen this fist hand years ago when I first became politically active . I have also seen it in on the other side odf the spectrum with as much self righteousness and religious spirit . It would make more sense to write about that here since the host is from a more leftward viewpoint . Criticism is always better accpeted and more trustworthy when it is pointed inward and not at another , especially when Faith is concerned . It appears here it is used politically , its not appearing to our Better Angels , once again it is saying we are the Better Angels . Big difference .

.

by: 1Grace

05-19-2009 @ 4:00pm

"It's a cheap debating trick to define identity narrowly and then to define who is in or out of the circle of identity by those false terms.

cmpnwtr,

Yes I agree . I have seen this fist hand years ago when I first became politically active . I have also seen it in on the other side odf the spectrum with as much self righteousness and religious spirit . It would make more sense to write about that here since the host is from a more leftward viewpoint . Criticism is always better accpeted and more trustworthy when it is pointed inward and not at another , especially when Faith is concerned . It appears here it is used politically , its not appearing to our Better Angels , once again it is saying we are the Better Angels . Big difference .

.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 4:51pm

"I recently found myself in conversation with a fellow believer who asked where I stood on the "non-negotiable" issues that seemed to him definitive for voting Christians. For him, as for quite a few others, the issues that divided the faithful from the wayward were abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research."

What about war and peace? What about the use of torture? What about poverty and exploitation? All of these are prominantly featured in the Bible. For that matter, if we stick strictly to "sexual" issues, there are the issues of adultery and divorce. I gather that these issues aren't "hot" enough so they don't count either?

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 4:51pm

"I recently found myself in conversation with a fellow believer who asked where I stood on the "non-negotiable" issues that seemed to him definitive for voting Christians. For him, as for quite a few others, the issues that divided the faithful from the wayward were abortion, same-sex marriage, and stem-cell research."

What about war and peace? What about the use of torture? What about poverty and exploitation? All of these are prominantly featured in the Bible. For that matter, if we stick strictly to "sexual" issues, there are the issues of adultery and divorce. I gather that these issues aren't "hot" enough so they don't count either?

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 5:24pm

They don't raise a lot of money or passion. See, it's a lot easier to oppose something rather than favor something else because, frankly, hate still sells. Handsomely.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 5:24pm

They don't raise a lot of money or passion. See, it's a lot easier to oppose something rather than favor something else because, frankly, hate still sells. Handsomely.

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 5:51pm

That has a lot of truth to it, but doesn't it contradict what Obama ran an entire campaign on...Hope?

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 5:51pm

That has a lot of truth to it, but doesn't it contradict what Obama ran an entire campaign on...Hope?

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 6:11pm

He actually said, "My Kingdom is not from this world." The preposition has been badly translated, while in many languages the english word of and from share the same word.

Either way you look at it, it does not mean that His Kingdom is not for this world. Because that is exactly what his Kingdom is for...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

by: naekwon

05-19-2009 @ 6:11pm

He actually said, "My Kingdom is not from this world." The preposition has been badly translated, while in many languages the english word of and from share the same word.

Either way you look at it, it does not mean that His Kingdom is not for this world. Because that is exactly what his Kingdom is for...thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 6:20pm

Perhaps, but much of that "hope" was colored by contempt for GWB. Obama's popularity will, at least for the time being, hinge on how different he acts from the last White House occupant.

by: BlueDeacon

05-19-2009 @ 6:20pm

Perhaps, but much of that "hope" was colored by contempt for GWB. Obama's popularity will, at least for the time being, hinge on how different he acts from the last White House occupant.

by: ando

05-19-2009 @ 6:34pm

Ironically, Sojo uses politics to forward its agenda. I'd like to see a poll of what percentage of Sojo supporter svote Democrat. Basically, we want to dislike the people who we believe are to the "right" politically, but then we want to promote our own agendas, such as poverty, climate change and the like. One side calls it politics, the other calls it principle, and vice versa.

by: ando

05-19-2009 @ 6:34pm

Ironically, Sojo uses politics to forward its agenda. I'd like to see a poll of what percentage of Sojo supporter svote Democrat. Basically, we want to dislike the people who we believe are to the "right" politically, but then we want to promote our own agendas, such as poverty, climate change and the like. One side calls it politics, the other calls it principle, and vice versa.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 6:40pm

Well, we could oppose divorce, adultery, teen-age pregnancy. But I guess it's a lot easier to target people in "out" and "other" groups (as I said before: Gay people and Mexican immigrants). After all, these "outcast" groups are very easy to hate.

by: WaveTossed

05-19-2009 @ 6:40pm

Well, we could oppose divorce, adultery, teen-age pregnancy. But I guess it's a lot easier to target people in "out" and "other" groups (as I said before: Gay people and Mexican immigrants). After all, these "outcast" groups are very easy to hate.

by: craztek

05-19-2009 @ 11:09pm

I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal.
On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians.
There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate.

by: craztek

05-19-2009 @ 11:09pm

I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal.
On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians.
There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate.

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 10:24am

"I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal."

And yet torture was practiced for eight years, with very little protest from many sectors of the Christian community (my church and pastor protested, but we were considered "left wing" for doing so). There have been threads here that discuss recent Pew polls showing that a majority of White Evangelicals (not sure how "Evangelical" is defined in these polls) support the use of torture.

As for poverty, it's terrible. And yet, I don't see too many fund raising letters or emails from the AFA or other similar groups protesting poverty. Instead, I've read missives from too many people that state that people who are poor got that way through their own failings.

Adultery/divorce is "not ideal." And yet it's widely practiced. So where are all of the campaigns to combat these social evils?

"On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians. There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate."

I still think that it's easier for Religious Right fundraisers and campaigners to campaign against "outside" groups and individuals -- not only Gays but Mexican immigrants. And sometimes Muslims.

Campaigning against divorce or adultery means campaigning against possible friends and adherents. Campaigning against Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims means that one can campaign against "the others" who are considered outside the pale and not risk offending fellow colleagues.

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 10:24am

"I think the difference is most Christians and most of society (I hope!) take it for granted that torture is wrong, war should be avoided whenever possible, poverty is terrible, adultery/divorce is not ideal."

And yet torture was practiced for eight years, with very little protest from many sectors of the Christian community (my church and pastor protested, but we were considered "left wing" for doing so). There have been threads here that discuss recent Pew polls showing that a majority of White Evangelicals (not sure how "Evangelical" is defined in these polls) support the use of torture.

As for poverty, it's terrible. And yet, I don't see too many fund raising letters or emails from the AFA or other similar groups protesting poverty. Instead, I've read missives from too many people that state that people who are poor got that way through their own failings.

Adultery/divorce is "not ideal." And yet it's widely practiced. So where are all of the campaigns to combat these social evils?

"On the other hand, abortion/embryonic stem cell research/same-sex sexual acts are evils (according to some Christians and authoritative Churches) that are trying to be redefined as morally neutral or even morally good by society and some Christians. There is a difference between the two no matter where you fall in the debate."

I still think that it's easier for Religious Right fundraisers and campaigners to campaign against "outside" groups and individuals -- not only Gays but Mexican immigrants. And sometimes Muslims.

Campaigning against divorce or adultery means campaigning against possible friends and adherents. Campaigning against Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims means that one can campaign against "the others" who are considered outside the pale and not risk offending fellow colleagues.

by: SisterMarie

05-20-2009 @ 3:10pm

They need an adversary. I believe it was Mark Twain who asked what all of us Christians would do when the Devil got saved. Put another way, if the Devil didn't exist, we Christians would have invented him.

by: SisterMarie

05-20-2009 @ 3:10pm

They need an adversary. I believe it was Mark Twain who asked what all of us Christians would do when the Devil got saved. Put another way, if the Devil didn't exist, we Christians would have invented him.

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 4:55pm

You are correct. What these people need is an "other." They need an alien group, an outcast group. To these people, Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are all "other"; they're not a part of "us." So therefore, they can be used as convenient scapegoats for their campaigns.

Back during the Jim Crow era, Blacks were also an "other", "outcast" group. Now they have been included in some quarters: though in other quarters, Blacks are still part of the "other." However, within the "mainstream" sectors of the Religious Right, Blacks are included -- but Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are not; they are part of "other" groups that can be demonized.

by: WaveTossed

05-20-2009 @ 4:55pm

You are correct. What these people need is an "other." They need an alien group, an outcast group. To these people, Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are all "other"; they're not a part of "us." So therefore, they can be used as convenient scapegoats for their campaigns.

Back during the Jim Crow era, Blacks were also an "other", "outcast" group. Now they have been included in some quarters: though in other quarters, Blacks are still part of the "other." However, within the "mainstream" sectors of the Religious Right, Blacks are included -- but Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims are not; they are part of "other" groups that can be demonized.

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