Get E-Mail Updates

The End of Christianity?

Last month, in an issue of Newsweek, Jon Meacham describes what he perceives to be "The End of Christian America." Meacham asserts that "Christians are now making up a declining percentage of the American population," leading to the "end of a Christian America." In the opening paragraph of the Newsweek article, Al Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, laments what he perceives to be a disturbing trend. "As Mohler saw it, the historic foundation of America's religious culture was cracking." Mohler is particularly disturbed by the decline of Christianity in New England, as he states: "to lose New England struck me as momentous."

Related Reading

Take Action on This Issue

Tell the Senate: Don't Cut International Aid

Please join us in telling the Senate: Protect foreign aid programs that help the poor and the needy. 

As many lament the decline of Christianity in the United States in the early stages of the 21st century, very few have recognized that American Christianity may actually be growing, but in unexpected and surprising ways. Let's take for example the Northeastern city of Boston in a region of the country that Mohler believes we have "lost." In 1970, the city of Boston was home to about 200 churches. Thirty years later, there were 412 churches. The net gain in the number of churches was in the growth of the number of churches in the ethnic and immigrant communities. While only a handful of churches in 1970 held services in a language other than English, thirty years later, more than half of those churches held services in a language other than English.

Between 2001 and 2006, 98 new churches were planted in the city of Boston.[1] In a city the size of Boston, 98 new church plants in a six year time periods is not spiritual death, it is spiritual life and vitality. Of the 98 churches planted during that six year time period, "76 of them reported the language of worship. Of those 76 churches, almost half of them ... [have] non-English or bi-lingual [services], 19 worship in Spanish, 8 in Haitian Creole, and 9 in Portuguese."[2] The perception nationally was that Boston was spiritually dead because there was noticeable decline among the white Christian community. In contrast, there has been significant growth among non-white Christians and churches.

When I was a pastor in Boston, I consistently heard the lament over the decline of Christianity in the city of Boston. However, the Boston I knew was filled with vibrant and exciting churches. New churches were being planted throughout the city. Christian programs and ministries were booming in the city. Boston is alive with spiritual revival, particularly among the ethnic minority communities. But very few seem to recognize this reality, even as this trend begins to appear nationally.

As sociologist R. Stephen Warner points out, "What many people have not heard ... and need to hear is that the great majority of the newcomers are Christians. ... This means that the new immigrants represent not the de-Christianization of American society but the de-Europeanization of American Christianity."[3] Contrary to popular opinion, the church is not dying in America; it is alive and well, but it is alive and well among the immigrant and ethnic minority communities and not among the majority white churches in the United States. As we enter into a new era for American Christianity, we may indeed identify this era as a post-Western, post-white American Christianity. But we may also assert that this development may actually be the salvation of American Christianity rather than the decline and demise of American Christianity.

Instead of the collapse of evangelicalism, we are actually seeing the revival of American Christianity in a vastly different form. Evangelicalism has been consistently portrayed in the media as a group of white, upper-middle class, suburban, Republicans. Is it any wonder that the black church will oftentimes refuse this designation? Or that other ethnic minority Christians feel marginalized from the very community that shares their basic values and beliefs?

But now there is a new era for Christianity in America. A Next Evangelicalism -- an evangelicalism that crosses across racial and ethnic lines with a shared value system rather than a political agenda. Evangelicalism is not dead, it is being redefined by a new constituency

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 4:12pm

This is true Pastor Jeff. The soul dies . That is exactly true . That is
the point .
God did not kill all in Sodom , and would have allowed the town to survive
and go on despite their souls being given
over to evil if a few more righteous souls were in the town . That would be
an example of what is being spoken to me here .
The people of sodom woulf have been allowed to go on in their ungodly lives
being in control of that town if their was a larger remant
of God's people there .
Their is a remant here in this country . This allows for the blessing of God
still to fall .
Have you never wondered why a man who appears so unfair in his dealings in
life , Madoff comes to mind , but is perhaps wealthy beyond concern, has no
compassion for the poor or the things Christ taught us to be . Without God
or any of the concerns say you have for the Lord ?
I bet if you could talk with him a while he had someone praying for him
somewhere in his history, had some kind of Bibical instruction .
The biggest con jobs are also done by people who understand human nature ,
but have no concern for God.

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 3:54pm

Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us .
Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our "universal
" method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral.
President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me .

It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong .
Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same .

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2009 @ 8:16pm

Thanks for your answer. A few comments on each of your points and also more questions:

You wrote: "Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us ."

Wow! I didn't know that there is actually a philosophy called "Secular Humanism." There is a Website:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

Here is their basic statement of beliefs:

"Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. They affirm that we must take responsibility for our own lives and the communities and world in which we live. Secular humanism emphasizes reason and scientific inquiry, individual freedom and responsibility, human values and compassion, and the need for tolerance and cooperation."

Needless to say, I am not a Secular Humanist because I believe in religion and I believe in God. And I believe in Jesus Christ as God's Son and Savior. I was in church today and as always, we recited together the Nicene Creed to affirm our beliefs in One God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

However, some of the values expressed by this site we do have in common: Human values, compassion, taking responsibility for our own lives. Agreeing with some of these values doesn't make me a Secular Humanist.

"Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our 'universal
' method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral."

I don't know about your church, but my church doesn't see 14 year old having sex as "neutral." We see it in our lives and we believe that it is unhealthy. I don't know of any Christian churches that see sex performed by 14 year olds as being "healthy" and needs to be accepted as part of any "universal" method of dealing with our culture. I also failed to see any statement like that on the Secular Humanist site.

Teen age sex and also pedophilia is a serious problem. In too many instances, people seem to see sex between teen-agers and adults as being something "perfectly natural" as long as it is "consensual." This is true especially when the sex is between a teen-age boy and an adult woman. Too many people seem to think that this isn't child abuse, that this is "a teen-ager's wet dream" or some such nonsense. Fortunately, some of the teachers, including female teachers having sex with teen-age boys have been prosecuted and sentenced. However, there was a famous case a few years ago where an older female teacher made a boy have sex with her and she got pregnant: she received seven years in prison, but many people were sympathetic with her. I believe that she received custody of the child once she got out of prison, which is a travesty. The Hollywood media even made a TV movie of this travesty.

"President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me ."

There isn't a consensus among Christians about abortion. Not all of us follow the Pope; I know I don't because I am Episcopalian, not Catholic.

"It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong ."

Really? Which school district?

Though knowing the idiocies of most present-day school administrators, I wouldn't be surprised. I taught in inner-city public schools for many years before changing my career.

"Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same . "

I think that you might be confusing Secular Humanism with moral relativism. For instance, I know that divorce is a horrendous evil wrought upon our society. So many children get hurt by divorce. And yet I don't see any movement within our churches to try and end divorce and help people get married in a wiser way. And then once married, stay married. I keep hearing and seeing people knowing each other for a few weeks and then they rush off to the marriage alter. At my church, our pastor counsels any couple seeking marriage through several sessions to make sure that they are right for each other and understand the solemnity of their marriage vows. Ignoring the evils and pitfalls of divorce is an example of moral relativism practiced by too many Christian churches.

I even once read where a minister of a church wrote that marriage between a 10 year old and an adult -particularly between a 10 year old girl and an adult man - was perfectly OK. This is advocating child abuse, pure and simple.

by: Runt

08-02-2011 @ 3:20am

Gun...

[

by: Police Car Auctions

06-26-2011 @ 8:05pm

Car Auctions...

Wonderful blog! I found it while browsing on Yahoo News. Do you have any suggestions on how to get listed in Yahoo News? I've been trying for a while but I never seem to get there! Appreciate it...

by: self tanning lotion

07-18-2011 @ 7:48pm

I just linked to your site...

Im brand-new to websites and just learned about trackbacks, which I imagine is a means for me to recognize your website through a linkback through my site. I came across your web site in the "currently buzzing" section of one of the bookmarking site...

by: Taylor Lautner Workout

05-15-2011 @ 10:55pm

Taylor Lautner Workout...

Also you might wanna' check out this blog I found here......

by: Android Tablets

06-14-2011 @ 5:26pm

Very cool blog post. This is really good content.
Affordable Android Tablet

by: ???????????????

01-27-2010 @ 8:38pm

thanks for sharing with us.

by: how to improve eye vision

06-21-2011 @ 4:16pm

For Your Information...

Im new to blogs and just heard about trackbacks, which I reckon is a way for me to recognize your web site through a linkback through mine. I came across your web site in the "currently buzzing" part of one of the bookmarking sites that I was postin...

by: ???????????????

01-27-2010 @ 6:38pm

thanks for sharing with us.

This is a very good tips especially to those new to blogosphere, brief and accurate information

by: Printable Address Labels

01-13-2010 @ 10:04am

Great stuff dude.. I was really impressed.

by: address labels envelops

01-13-2010 @ 10:01am

thanks for sharing with us.

by: 1500 Calorie Diabetic Diet

01-13-2010 @ 9:56am

This is a great job! Well done. Thank you sharing your ideas and knowledge.

by: Lemonade diet

01-12-2010 @ 5:59am

this is such great information. thanks for the insight.

by: Skinfood

01-12-2010 @ 5:59am

Nicely done, very impressive. Keep up the good work and of course, keep sharing your ideas.

by: Etude

01-12-2010 @ 5:59am

Thank you, it is very good! I like it very much

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-12-2010 @ 1:33am

this is telly awesome article.Thanks for sharing with us..

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-11-2010 @ 3:18pm

Great stuff dude.. I was really impressed.

by: Portable Air Conditioner

01-11-2010 @ 3:17pm

thanks for sharing with us.

by: Apple Cider Vinegar Diet

01-11-2010 @ 3:17pm

This is a great job! Well done. Thank you sharing your ideas and knowledge.

by: Printable Address Labels

01-11-2010 @ 10:40am

Thank you, it is very good! I like it very much

by: Diet

01-11-2010 @ 10:40am

Nicely done, very impressive. Keep up the good work and of course, keep sharing your ideas.

by: Sears Craftsman Air Compressor

01-11-2010 @ 10:40am

this is such great information. thanks for the insight.

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

thanks for sharing with us.

by: Strece

08-10-2011 @ 9:35pm

Tapestry...

[

by: Met

07-30-2011 @ 10:59pm

Of...

[

by: Personalized Address Labels

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

This is a great job! Well done. Thank you sharing your ideas and knowledge.

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

this is telly awesome article.Thanks for sharing with us..

by: self-directed IRAs

01-10-2010 @ 12:04pm

this is such great information. thanks for the insight.

by: Sport Club Portugu

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Nicely done, very impressive. Keep up the good work and of course, keep sharing your ideas.

by: Sears Parts

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Great stuff dude.. I was really impressed.

by: Hug

08-12-2011 @ 12:49pm

Loft...

[

by: SM London Escorts

08-04-2011 @ 11:10pm

Elegant Models...

Elegant Models, 68,Lombard Street, London, EC3V 9LJ, 020 3011 2893 ...

by: Android Tablets

06-14-2011 @ 5:26pm

Very cool blog post. This is really good content.
Affordable Android Tablet

by: obholmen

05-22-2009 @ 1:25pm

I have quoted from this post and linked to it in my blog, http://www.theliberalspirit.com/?p=412

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 2:19pm

This was an important post. Thank you for broadening the perspective, soong-chan rah. The denomination of my current church -- Evangelical Covenant -- is one of those at the forefront of minority church planting in the US. I believe immigrants bring a decidedly different perspective to the American culture, often dominated by the rantings of both the left and right. The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures and not acquiese to the dominant American paradigm of money, sex and power.

by: Flash Website Builder

06-15-2011 @ 8:38am

Easy Web Site Builder Tells You It's A Great Piece Of Writing Keep It Up?...

Here might be various other info people may well possibly be intrigued within... dont stop, ...

by: nissan juke dimensions

07-18-2011 @ 10:37pm

juke nissan review...

Awesome post, I've linked back to your blog here http://www.vwsuv.net/sites-we-like/ return the favor if you can, thanks!...

by: Pen

08-13-2011 @ 10:28pm

Per...

[

by: 1Grace

05-22-2009 @ 3:20pm

"The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures"

I am in one of those denominations that is actually growing . But I would say it might have some to do with those new immigrants coming to this country , our denomination has diverse congregations.

But The American church culture appears dominated by rationalizing , and I think it would be wrong to say even growing denominations do not have to deal with it .. As you say keeping the integrity of their culture . The culture of humanism and the rationalizing behind it almost always is seen going for the greater good. But it is not Christian , and it is is becoming more and more doctrinal in our churches .

If you can't figure out the scripture , it was written in correctly .
Humanism is the religion of academia, and its influence our culture is dominating it in my opinion. My pastor says America has a bank roll of Christian Spirituality . Sort of like why does a person prosper perhaps when we all see he or she is doing everything wrong . Well someone is praying for that person , or he had a Grand Ma that prayed for him and never gave up .

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 4:53pm

I agree Igrace. I know my grandmother, a devout Catholic, prayed for her children and grandchildren daily. We're not without problems, but I'm sure it made a difference in our lives, especially trying to not stray to the left or the right (and I don't mean politically)/

by: WaveTossed

05-22-2009 @ 5:09pm

Usually Gay Christians get ignored in these discussions. This is because many "mainstream" Evangelicals refuse to even acknowledge them as Christians.

http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

by: JamesM

05-22-2009 @ 5:36pm

"Christian America"-- it sounds like an oxymoron to me.

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

05-22-2009 @ 6:04pm

"The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils.

We need to get back to a New Testament type church like in the book of Acts.

There is actually no scriptural support for a "Christian Nation" anyway. And Jesus himself said in, words to this effect, that he did not come to set up a political kingdom.

In fact, the early church did not call themselves "Christian;" they called themselves "Believers."

I am openly gay and I have been a Believer in Jesus since I was 8 years old. I am now 66.

If Jesus said anything about those whom we would call gay, the Gospel writers never mentioned it. There is no word in the original languages of the Scripture that can even be correctly interpreted or translated as "homosexual."

by: markvans

05-22-2009 @ 7:46pm

Amen. White American Christianity needs to find ways to connect with, submit to, and support the larger move of the Spirit or we'll find ourselves on the outside looking in. Folks like me need to constantly baptize our imaginations with the Gospel of Luke/Acts, which shows a Gospel that often subverts the religious dominance of the powerful with a Gospel that goes to the supposed outsiders.

Chrisitianity is indeed alive and well...and it is experiencing vibrancy in places that mainstream white Middle America finds uncomfortable. But we ignore or resist this shift to our own peril.

by: DRJ

05-22-2009 @ 7:48pm

When I read Meacham's article in Newsweek, I came away with a sense of hope. My hope is that the data in the survey cited by the writer represents a rejection of the movement which has been masquerading as Christianity lately. Perhaps the people surveyed did not want to identify themselves with a label that has been associated with pastors who stand at gravesites with signs that read "God hates faggots." Perhaps, they did not want to be associated with a movement which preaches being "pro-life" but is really just anti-abortion. Perhaps, they are people more interested in social justice than the gospel of wealth. Instead of being all-inclusive as Jesus was, American Christianity has presented itself as an exclusive club or a subsidiary of the Republican Party. As Joe Allen Doty said, I am a believer in Jesus Christ and try very hard to be His ambassador in this world. Spreading His gospel by my words and actions is what really identifies me.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:20pm

Where might we have acquired this "bankroll"? I'd love to hear some of your pastor's sermons.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:24pm

""The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils."

Wasn't that the same time that "that which is perfect" of 1Corinthians 13 came and now we don't need anything other than "The Word"? ; )

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: obholmen

05-22-2009 @ 1:25pm

I have quoted from this post and linked to it in my blog, http://www.theliberalspirit.com/?p=412

by: obholmen

05-22-2009 @ 1:25pm

I have quoted from this post and linked to it in my blog, http://www.theliberalspirit.com/?p=412

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 2:19pm

This was an important post. Thank you for broadening the perspective, soong-chan rah. The denomination of my current church -- Evangelical Covenant -- is one of those at the forefront of minority church planting in the US. I believe immigrants bring a decidedly different perspective to the American culture, often dominated by the rantings of both the left and right. The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures and not acquiese to the dominant American paradigm of money, sex and power.

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 2:19pm

This was an important post. Thank you for broadening the perspective, soong-chan rah. The denomination of my current church -- Evangelical Covenant -- is one of those at the forefront of minority church planting in the US. I believe immigrants bring a decidedly different perspective to the American culture, often dominated by the rantings of both the left and right. The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures and not acquiese to the dominant American paradigm of money, sex and power.

by: 1Grace

05-22-2009 @ 3:20pm

"The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures"

I am in one of those denominations that is actually growing . But I would say it might have some to do with those new immigrants coming to this country , our denomination has diverse congregations.

But The American church culture appears dominated by rationalizing , and I think it would be wrong to say even growing denominations do not have to deal with it .. As you say keeping the integrity of their culture . The culture of humanism and the rationalizing behind it almost always is seen going for the greater good. But it is not Christian , and it is is becoming more and more doctrinal in our churches .

If you can't figure out the scripture , it was written in correctly .
Humanism is the religion of academia, and its influence our culture is dominating it in my opinion. My pastor says America has a bank roll of Christian Spirituality . Sort of like why does a person prosper perhaps when we all see he or she is doing everything wrong . Well someone is praying for that person , or he had a Grand Ma that prayed for him and never gave up .

by: 1Grace

05-22-2009 @ 3:20pm

"The key is whether they can maintain the integrity of their cultures"

I am in one of those denominations that is actually growing . But I would say it might have some to do with those new immigrants coming to this country , our denomination has diverse congregations.

But The American church culture appears dominated by rationalizing , and I think it would be wrong to say even growing denominations do not have to deal with it .. As you say keeping the integrity of their culture . The culture of humanism and the rationalizing behind it almost always is seen going for the greater good. But it is not Christian , and it is is becoming more and more doctrinal in our churches .

If you can't figure out the scripture , it was written in correctly .
Humanism is the religion of academia, and its influence our culture is dominating it in my opinion. My pastor says America has a bank roll of Christian Spirituality . Sort of like why does a person prosper perhaps when we all see he or she is doing everything wrong . Well someone is praying for that person , or he had a Grand Ma that prayed for him and never gave up .

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 4:53pm

I agree Igrace. I know my grandmother, a devout Catholic, prayed for her children and grandchildren daily. We're not without problems, but I'm sure it made a difference in our lives, especially trying to not stray to the left or the right (and I don't mean politically)/

by: ando

05-22-2009 @ 4:53pm

I agree Igrace. I know my grandmother, a devout Catholic, prayed for her children and grandchildren daily. We're not without problems, but I'm sure it made a difference in our lives, especially trying to not stray to the left or the right (and I don't mean politically)/

by: WaveTossed

05-22-2009 @ 5:09pm

Usually Gay Christians get ignored in these discussions. This is because many "mainstream" Evangelicals refuse to even acknowledge them as Christians.

http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

by: WaveTossed

05-22-2009 @ 5:09pm

Usually Gay Christians get ignored in these discussions. This is because many "mainstream" Evangelicals refuse to even acknowledge them as Christians.

http://whosoever.org/index.shtml

by: JamesM

05-22-2009 @ 5:36pm

"Christian America"-- it sounds like an oxymoron to me.

by: JamesM

05-22-2009 @ 5:36pm

"Christian America"-- it sounds like an oxymoron to me.

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

05-22-2009 @ 6:04pm

"The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils.

We need to get back to a New Testament type church like in the book of Acts.

There is actually no scriptural support for a "Christian Nation" anyway. And Jesus himself said in, words to this effect, that he did not come to set up a political kingdom.

In fact, the early church did not call themselves "Christian;" they called themselves "Believers."

I am openly gay and I have been a Believer in Jesus since I was 8 years old. I am now 66.

If Jesus said anything about those whom we would call gay, the Gospel writers never mentioned it. There is no word in the original languages of the Scripture that can even be correctly interpreted or translated as "homosexual."

by: Joe_Allen_Doty

05-22-2009 @ 6:04pm

"The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils.

We need to get back to a New Testament type church like in the book of Acts.

There is actually no scriptural support for a "Christian Nation" anyway. And Jesus himself said in, words to this effect, that he did not come to set up a political kingdom.

In fact, the early church did not call themselves "Christian;" they called themselves "Believers."

I am openly gay and I have been a Believer in Jesus since I was 8 years old. I am now 66.

If Jesus said anything about those whom we would call gay, the Gospel writers never mentioned it. There is no word in the original languages of the Scripture that can even be correctly interpreted or translated as "homosexual."

by: markvans

05-22-2009 @ 7:46pm

Amen. White American Christianity needs to find ways to connect with, submit to, and support the larger move of the Spirit or we'll find ourselves on the outside looking in. Folks like me need to constantly baptize our imaginations with the Gospel of Luke/Acts, which shows a Gospel that often subverts the religious dominance of the powerful with a Gospel that goes to the supposed outsiders.

Chrisitianity is indeed alive and well...and it is experiencing vibrancy in places that mainstream white Middle America finds uncomfortable. But we ignore or resist this shift to our own peril.

by: markvans

05-22-2009 @ 7:46pm

Amen. White American Christianity needs to find ways to connect with, submit to, and support the larger move of the Spirit or we'll find ourselves on the outside looking in. Folks like me need to constantly baptize our imaginations with the Gospel of Luke/Acts, which shows a Gospel that often subverts the religious dominance of the powerful with a Gospel that goes to the supposed outsiders.

Chrisitianity is indeed alive and well...and it is experiencing vibrancy in places that mainstream white Middle America finds uncomfortable. But we ignore or resist this shift to our own peril.

by: DRJ

05-22-2009 @ 7:48pm

When I read Meacham's article in Newsweek, I came away with a sense of hope. My hope is that the data in the survey cited by the writer represents a rejection of the movement which has been masquerading as Christianity lately. Perhaps the people surveyed did not want to identify themselves with a label that has been associated with pastors who stand at gravesites with signs that read "God hates faggots." Perhaps, they did not want to be associated with a movement which preaches being "pro-life" but is really just anti-abortion. Perhaps, they are people more interested in social justice than the gospel of wealth. Instead of being all-inclusive as Jesus was, American Christianity has presented itself as an exclusive club or a subsidiary of the Republican Party. As Joe Allen Doty said, I am a believer in Jesus Christ and try very hard to be His ambassador in this world. Spreading His gospel by my words and actions is what really identifies me.

by: DRJ

05-22-2009 @ 7:48pm

When I read Meacham's article in Newsweek, I came away with a sense of hope. My hope is that the data in the survey cited by the writer represents a rejection of the movement which has been masquerading as Christianity lately. Perhaps the people surveyed did not want to identify themselves with a label that has been associated with pastors who stand at gravesites with signs that read "God hates faggots." Perhaps, they did not want to be associated with a movement which preaches being "pro-life" but is really just anti-abortion. Perhaps, they are people more interested in social justice than the gospel of wealth. Instead of being all-inclusive as Jesus was, American Christianity has presented itself as an exclusive club or a subsidiary of the Republican Party. As Joe Allen Doty said, I am a believer in Jesus Christ and try very hard to be His ambassador in this world. Spreading His gospel by my words and actions is what really identifies me.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:20pm

Where might we have acquired this "bankroll"? I'd love to hear some of your pastor's sermons.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:20pm

Where might we have acquired this "bankroll"? I'd love to hear some of your pastor's sermons.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:24pm

""The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils."

Wasn't that the same time that "that which is perfect" of 1Corinthians 13 came and now we don't need anything other than "The Word"? ; )

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-22-2009 @ 8:24pm

""The Way" was started in 30 AD on the Day of Pentecost. The politicized religion of Christianity did not officially begin until 325 AD when the Byzantine Emperor Constantine decided to organize the churches in his empire and he presided over the 1st of the Seven Church Councils."

Wasn't that the same time that "that which is perfect" of 1Corinthians 13 came and now we don't need anything other than "The Word"? ; )

by: 1Grace

05-23-2009 @ 2:37am

The bankroll ? Say after a life of your excellent example of a Christian
life , your prayers for those you love and those you do not . You leave
behind examples of a God loving life . Even though people such as myself,
say your kids perhaps, who do not follow the God Of Truth , we follow our
own idols and dreams of success. Perhaps never actually following Christ ,
but still following much of the examples you gave to our lives but we still receive
the benefits of those examples that they cause , and also the
benefits of your prayers you had given . Thats the spirtual bankroll Jeff . The lives of the saints now and those who lived before us .
The prayers you gave and others
like you . So it may give some people much concern that
a person like me and others appear exempt from the Lord's Justice , it is
actually because we have had people in my and other lives such as your self
who loved God so much and gave us enough of a legacy to receive the benefits
say of following God , without really actually following Him , in some cases
not even trying .

by: 1Grace

05-23-2009 @ 2:37am

The bankroll ? Say after a life of your excellent example of a Christian
life , your prayers for those you love and those you do not . You leave
behind examples of a God loving life . Even though people such as myself,
say your kids perhaps, who do not follow the God Of Truth , we follow our
own idols and dreams of success. Perhaps never actually following Christ ,
but still following much of the examples you gave to our lives but we still receive
the benefits of those examples that they cause , and also the
benefits of your prayers you had given . Thats the spirtual bankroll Jeff . The lives of the saints now and those who lived before us .
The prayers you gave and others
like you . So it may give some people much concern that
a person like me and others appear exempt from the Lord's Justice , it is
actually because we have had people in my and other lives such as your self
who loved God so much and gave us enough of a legacy to receive the benefits
say of following God , without really actually following Him , in some cases
not even trying .

by: JamesM

05-23-2009 @ 8:21am

Thanks for sharing that web site, Wave.

by: JamesM

05-23-2009 @ 8:21am

Thanks for sharing that web site, Wave.

by: 1Grace

05-23-2009 @ 5:15pm

The more who come to know the lord the better my friend !

by: 1Grace

05-23-2009 @ 5:15pm

The more who come to know the lord the better my friend !

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-23-2009 @ 6:07pm

Those are fine sentiments, but Scripture clearly states "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Each person, generation, institution or nation is responsible before God for it's own spiritual reward. You may want to check in on our Catholic friends on that whole "reservoir of grace" thing.

by: PASTOR JEFF

05-23-2009 @ 6:07pm

Those are fine sentiments, but Scripture clearly states "the soul that sinneth, it shall die". Each person, generation, institution or nation is responsible before God for it's own spiritual reward. You may want to check in on our Catholic friends on that whole "reservoir of grace" thing.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2009 @ 11:51am

"The culture of humanism and the rationalizing behind it almost always is seen going for the greater good. But it is not Christian , and it is is becoming more and more doctrinal in our churches."

Do me a favor and please define "humanism." And please show me in what ways this doctrine is not "Christian," even if some Christian churches are (according to what you say) adopting this doctrine.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand. I've heard the term "secular humanism" before. I've visited a site dedicated to self-described Humanist thought. I don't see that much difference between what was advocated at this Humanist site and what is advocated at many Christian churches. Other than that some of these Humanists don't explicitly worship Jesus or God. Some of these Humanists might be atheists, but I didn't get the impression that all of them were. And some of them may be explicitly Christian, believing in God and in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

So please tell me why "the culture of humanism" is -- as a whole -- "not Christian." It would seem that some Humanists are Christian and many are not.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2009 @ 11:51am

"The culture of humanism and the rationalizing behind it almost always is seen going for the greater good. But it is not Christian , and it is is becoming more and more doctrinal in our churches."

Do me a favor and please define "humanism." And please show me in what ways this doctrine is not "Christian," even if some Christian churches are (according to what you say) adopting this doctrine.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to understand. I've heard the term "secular humanism" before. I've visited a site dedicated to self-described Humanist thought. I don't see that much difference between what was advocated at this Humanist site and what is advocated at many Christian churches. Other than that some of these Humanists don't explicitly worship Jesus or God. Some of these Humanists might be atheists, but I didn't get the impression that all of them were. And some of them may be explicitly Christian, believing in God and in Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

So please tell me why "the culture of humanism" is -- as a whole -- "not Christian." It would seem that some Humanists are Christian and many are not.

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 3:54pm

Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us .
Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our "universal
" method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral.
President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me .

It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong .
Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same .

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 3:54pm

Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us .
Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our "universal
" method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral.
President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me .

It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong .
Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same .

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 4:12pm

This is true Pastor Jeff. The soul dies . That is exactly true . That is
the point .
God did not kill all in Sodom , and would have allowed the town to survive
and go on despite their souls being given
over to evil if a few more righteous souls were in the town . That would be
an example of what is being spoken to me here .
The people of sodom woulf have been allowed to go on in their ungodly lives
being in control of that town if their was a larger remant
of God's people there .
Their is a remant here in this country . This allows for the blessing of God
still to fall .
Have you never wondered why a man who appears so unfair in his dealings in
life , Madoff comes to mind , but is perhaps wealthy beyond concern, has no
compassion for the poor or the things Christ taught us to be . Without God
or any of the concerns say you have for the Lord ?
I bet if you could talk with him a while he had someone praying for him
somewhere in his history, had some kind of Bibical instruction .
The biggest con jobs are also done by people who understand human nature ,
but have no concern for God.

by: 1Grace

05-24-2009 @ 4:12pm

This is true Pastor Jeff. The soul dies . That is exactly true . That is
the point .
God did not kill all in Sodom , and would have allowed the town to survive
and go on despite their souls being given
over to evil if a few more righteous souls were in the town . That would be
an example of what is being spoken to me here .
The people of sodom woulf have been allowed to go on in their ungodly lives
being in control of that town if their was a larger remant
of God's people there .
Their is a remant here in this country . This allows for the blessing of God
still to fall .
Have you never wondered why a man who appears so unfair in his dealings in
life , Madoff comes to mind , but is perhaps wealthy beyond concern, has no
compassion for the poor or the things Christ taught us to be . Without God
or any of the concerns say you have for the Lord ?
I bet if you could talk with him a while he had someone praying for him
somewhere in his history, had some kind of Bibical instruction .
The biggest con jobs are also done by people who understand human nature ,
but have no concern for God.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2009 @ 8:16pm

Thanks for your answer. A few comments on each of your points and also more questions:

You wrote: "Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us ."

Wow! I didn't know that there is actually a philosophy called "Secular Humanism." There is a Website:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

Here is their basic statement of beliefs:

"Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. They affirm that we must take responsibility for our own lives and the communities and world in which we live. Secular humanism emphasizes reason and scientific inquiry, individual freedom and responsibility, human values and compassion, and the need for tolerance and cooperation."

Needless to say, I am not a Secular Humanist because I believe in religion and I believe in God. And I believe in Jesus Christ as God's Son and Savior. I was in church today and as always, we recited together the Nicene Creed to affirm our beliefs in One God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

However, some of the values expressed by this site we do have in common: Human values, compassion, taking responsibility for our own lives. Agreeing with some of these values doesn't make me a Secular Humanist.

"Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our 'universal
' method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral."

I don't know about your church, but my church doesn't see 14 year old having sex as "neutral." We see it in our lives and we believe that it is unhealthy. I don't know of any Christian churches that see sex performed by 14 year olds as being "healthy" and needs to be accepted as part of any "universal" method of dealing with our culture. I also failed to see any statement like that on the Secular Humanist site.

Teen age sex and also pedophilia is a serious problem. In too many instances, people seem to see sex between teen-agers and adults as being something "perfectly natural" as long as it is "consensual." This is true especially when the sex is between a teen-age boy and an adult woman. Too many people seem to think that this isn't child abuse, that this is "a teen-ager's wet dream" or some such nonsense. Fortunately, some of the teachers, including female teachers having sex with teen-age boys have been prosecuted and sentenced. However, there was a famous case a few years ago where an older female teacher made a boy have sex with her and she got pregnant: she received seven years in prison, but many people were sympathetic with her. I believe that she received custody of the child once she got out of prison, which is a travesty. The Hollywood media even made a TV movie of this travesty.

"President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me ."

There isn't a consensus among Christians about abortion. Not all of us follow the Pope; I know I don't because I am Episcopalian, not Catholic.

"It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong ."

Really? Which school district?

Though knowing the idiocies of most present-day school administrators, I wouldn't be surprised. I taught in inner-city public schools for many years before changing my career.

"Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same . "

I think that you might be confusing Secular Humanism with moral relativism. For instance, I know that divorce is a horrendous evil wrought upon our society. So many children get hurt by divorce. And yet I don't see any movement within our churches to try and end divorce and help people get married in a wiser way. And then once married, stay married. I keep hearing and seeing people knowing each other for a few weeks and then they rush off to the marriage alter. At my church, our pastor counsels any couple seeking marriage through several sessions to make sure that they are right for each other and understand the solemnity of their marriage vows. Ignoring the evils and pitfalls of divorce is an example of moral relativism practiced by too many Christian churches.

I even once read where a minister of a church wrote that marriage between a 10 year old and an adult -particularly between a 10 year old girl and an adult man - was perfectly OK. This is advocating child abuse, pure and simple.

by: WaveTossed

05-24-2009 @ 8:16pm

Thanks for your answer. A few comments on each of your points and also more questions:

You wrote: "Wave Humanism to me is basically the human rationalizing of life , and it is
geared towards the greater good .
My arguemnt with Humanism is it is godless or can be godless. Its a philospy
we use because it makes sense to us ."

Wow! I didn't know that there is actually a philosophy called "Secular Humanism." There is a Website:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

Here is their basic statement of beliefs:

"Secular Humanism is a way of thinking and living that aims to bring out the best in people so that all people can have the best in life. Secular humanists reject supernatural and authoritarian beliefs. They affirm that we must take responsibility for our own lives and the communities and world in which we live. Secular humanism emphasizes reason and scientific inquiry, individual freedom and responsibility, human values and compassion, and the need for tolerance and cooperation."

Needless to say, I am not a Secular Humanist because I believe in religion and I believe in God. And I believe in Jesus Christ as God's Son and Savior. I was in church today and as always, we recited together the Nicene Creed to affirm our beliefs in One God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit.

However, some of the values expressed by this site we do have in common: Human values, compassion, taking responsibility for our own lives. Agreeing with some of these values doesn't make me a Secular Humanist.

"Working and volunteering for the schools I saw schools change an approach to
discipline , education , and community values .
For instance a 14 year old having sex , one time considered immoral ,
unhealthy . Its still unhealthy , immoral , destrutive to
that child . But even Christians accept humanism as part of our 'universal
' method of dealing with the culture . We see it as neutral."

I don't know about your church, but my church doesn't see 14 year old having sex as "neutral." We see it in our lives and we believe that it is unhealthy. I don't know of any Christian churches that see sex performed by 14 year olds as being "healthy" and needs to be accepted as part of any "universal" method of dealing with our culture. I also failed to see any statement like that on the Secular Humanist site.

Teen age sex and also pedophilia is a serious problem. In too many instances, people seem to see sex between teen-agers and adults as being something "perfectly natural" as long as it is "consensual." This is true especially when the sex is between a teen-age boy and an adult woman. Too many people seem to think that this isn't child abuse, that this is "a teen-ager's wet dream" or some such nonsense. Fortunately, some of the teachers, including female teachers having sex with teen-age boys have been prosecuted and sentenced. However, there was a famous case a few years ago where an older female teacher made a boy have sex with her and she got pregnant: she received seven years in prison, but many people were sympathetic with her. I believe that she received custody of the child once she got out of prison, which is a travesty. The Hollywood media even made a TV movie of this travesty.

"President Obama used it in his Notre Dame speech, it was a great speech .
But his neutrality was abortion being ok and ok to be against it .
Thats not neutral , a great speech , but not neutral from a Christian
perspective . Or the Pope's . I agree that civility and working together is
a good idea . Maybe that is Humanism also . But its logical to me ."

There isn't a consensus among Christians about abortion. Not all of us follow the Pope; I know I don't because I am Episcopalian, not Catholic.

"It would be inappropriate now in a school district to have a teacher or
Nurse tell this young girl what she is doing is wrong ."

Really? Which school district?

Though knowing the idiocies of most present-day school administrators, I wouldn't be surprised. I taught in inner-city public schools for many years before changing my career.

"Secular Humanism is considered neutral .It is anything but for that 14 year
old little girl .
Nothing is new under the Sun, we have always tried to take on the role of
God and rationalize life out for ourself .
But if it is disguised for good or evil , I believe the results end up the
same . "

I think that you might be confusing Secular Humanism with moral relativism. For instance, I know that divorce is a horrendous evil wrought upon our society. So many children get hurt by divorce. And yet I don't see any movement within our churches to try and end divorce and help people get married in a wiser way. And then once married, stay married. I keep hearing and seeing people knowing each other for a few weeks and then they rush off to the marriage alter. At my church, our pastor counsels any couple seeking marriage through several sessions to make sure that they are right for each other and understand the solemnity of their marriage vows. Ignoring the evils and pitfalls of divorce is an example of moral relativism practiced by too many Christian churches.

I even once read where a minister of a church wrote that marriage between a 10 year old and an adult -particularly between a 10 year old girl and an adult man - was perfectly OK. This is advocating child abuse, pure and simple.

by: Sport Club Portugu

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Nicely done, very impressive. Keep up the good work and of course, keep sharing your ideas.

by: Sears Parts

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Great stuff dude.. I was really impressed.

by: Sport Club Portugu

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Nicely done, very impressive. Keep up the good work and of course, keep sharing your ideas.

by: Sears Parts

01-10-2010 @ 12:03pm

Great stuff dude.. I was really impressed.

by: self-directed IRAs

01-10-2010 @ 12:04pm

this is such great information. thanks for the insight.

by: self-directed IRAs

01-10-2010 @ 12:04pm

this is such great information. thanks for the insight.

by: Personalized Address Labels

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

This is a great job! Well done. Thank you sharing your ideas and knowledge.

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

this is telly awesome article.Thanks for sharing with us..

by: Personalized Address Labels

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

This is a great job! Well done. Thank you sharing your ideas and knowledge.

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

this is telly awesome article.Thanks for sharing with us..

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

thanks for sharing with us.

by: Cayenne Pepper Diet

01-10-2010 @ 4:59pm

thanks for sharing with us.