Memorial Day: After the Parades and Picnics
by Johann Christoph Arnold 05-22-2009 | 3:30pm
"Only the dead have seen the end of war."
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"But I also know that many of those who die in warfare sacrifice themselves to save others."
I am sorry, but unless they are there, unarmed, and jump on a grenade to save everyone else around them, they are not "sacrificing" their lives... they are taking lives in order to save a particular ideology and way of life.
Why do we only think about those who died defending this country and not also consider those they killed?
I am not trying to vilify those who fight for their country; even though I do not believe a Christian can ever justify defending anything other than the Kingdom of God (which the U.S. is not... nor is any other country). I am simply tired of Christians honoring deaths which were not truly sacrificial in the sense that they laid down their lives for their friends. The ultimate goal of someone in war is to kill to defend their friends, not to die for them.
ando said:
"My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil."
Of course, your position is one of dualism. In fact, there is no "reality of evil." Evil is not a noun but an adjective. If it were a noun, then it must be a part of creation. Since nothing in creation came into existence apart from God, then, if evil is real, God created it. That wouldn't be a very nice God and is certainly not consistent with the God of the bible.
In a sense, what you are saying is that your pacifism takes a back seat to children of God who act in evil ways. You are saying that they are beyond redemption. You are saying that your life, or the life of those you love, is more valuable than theirs. Ultimately, it is a selfish stance to take. God values all life. We are called to love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, and to refuse to repay evil with evil. Pacifism must never take a back seat.
Thank God and those brave men and women who died for your right to believe what you do. Evil is as old as Satan, a fallen angel. Your reality is that Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. were not beyond redemption. That perhaps a little conjoling and peace talks could have prevented them from killing millions of people.
I take issue with you calling me selfish. You don't ANYTHING about me, and ultimately your argument is impotent in the face of the reality of a fallen world. It not only does not work in the real world, it is not Scripturally-based.
ando,
my argument is the scripturally based one. sorry, but choosing your life over another's is selfish. i called that choice selfish, not you outright. satan is evil, but evil is not satan for if evil is personified, then God created evil. that is heresy... condemned throughout the history of Christianity.
the 'real world' that you are talking about... hey, isn't that what Jesus came to change and redeem... and didn't he call his church to be a part of his plan? how can enact any sort of change when we adopt the exact same means as this 'fallen' world?
i don't discount the bravery of those who fight, i simply think that there is a higher bravery to which Christians are called... to love, even our enemies, more than we love ourselves.
"But I also know that many of those who die in warfare sacrifice themselves to save others."
I am sorry, but unless they are there, unarmed, and jump on a grenade to save everyone else around them, they are not "sacrificing" their lives... they are taking lives in order to save a particular ideology and way of life.
Why do we only think about those who died defending this country and not also consider those they killed?
I am not trying to vilify those who fight for their country; even though I do not believe a Christian can ever justify defending anything other than the Kingdom of God (which the U.S. is not... nor is any other country). I am simply tired of Christians honoring deaths which were not truly sacrificial in the sense that they laid down their lives for their friends. The ultimate goal of someone in war is to kill to defend their friends, not to die for them.
ando said:
"My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil."
Of course, your position is one of dualism. In fact, there is no "reality of evil." Evil is not a noun but an adjective. If it were a noun, then it must be a part of creation. Since nothing in creation came into existence apart from God, then, if evil is real, God created it. That wouldn't be a very nice God and is certainly not consistent with the God of the bible.
In a sense, what you are saying is that your pacifism takes a back seat to children of God who act in evil ways. You are saying that they are beyond redemption. You are saying that your life, or the life of those you love, is more valuable than theirs. Ultimately, it is a selfish stance to take. God values all life. We are called to love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, and to refuse to repay evil with evil. Pacifism must never take a back seat.
Thank God and those brave men and women who died for your right to believe what you do. Evil is as old as Satan, a fallen angel. Your reality is that Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. were not beyond redemption. That perhaps a little conjoling and peace talks could have prevented them from killing millions of people.
I take issue with you calling me selfish. You don't ANYTHING about me, and ultimately your argument is impotent in the face of the reality of a fallen world. It not only does not work in the real world, it is not Scripturally-based.
ando,
my argument is the scripturally based one. sorry, but choosing your life over another's is selfish. i called that choice selfish, not you outright. satan is evil, but evil is not satan for if evil is personified, then God created evil. that is heresy... condemned throughout the history of Christianity.
the 'real world' that you are talking about... hey, isn't that what Jesus came to change and redeem... and didn't he call his church to be a part of his plan? how can enact any sort of change when we adopt the exact same means as this 'fallen' world?
i don't discount the bravery of those who fight, i simply think that there is a higher bravery to which Christians are called... to love, even our enemies, more than we love ourselves.
The better angels of my nature want to agree with your comments about war. When I traced my family tree, I discovered that our family has representatives who served all the way back to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (both sides), WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and more recently the conflicts in the Mideast. The remains of my great-uncle were shipped home from France during WW1. We do have a tendency to jump into conflicts too readily and have apparently learned little.
We as a race place too much emphasis on our differences and not enough on the common ground between us...the "No Man's Land" of human relations, if you will. As long as we continue to focus on the issues which divide us, and allow our institutions (government, media, entertainment) to perpetuate the stereotypes and biases which these differences generate, we will never be free of violence. Jesus showed us the way to Peace from his "throne" on Calvary...the guidebook is in place, all we need do is follow Him! And for those whose beliefs differ from ours, we must extend the hand of tolerance and understanding. If we do not, we fly in the face of Him in who we believe!
Although it is easy to accept Plato's principle, we have an alternative...the peace of Christ. By bringing this to our daily lives, we can make inroads amongst those whose belief system is founded on war and violence.
Pray for Peace, and Dare to Act!
The better angels of my nature want to agree with your comments about war. When I traced my family tree, I discovered that our family has representatives who served all the way back to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (both sides), WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and more recently the conflicts in the Mideast. The remains of my great-uncle were shipped home from France during WW1. We do have a tendency to jump into conflicts too readily and have apparently learned little.
We as a race place too much emphasis on our differences and not enough on the common ground between us...the "No Man's Land" of human relations, if you will. As long as we continue to focus on the issues which divide us, and allow our institutions (government, media, entertainment) to perpetuate the stereotypes and biases which these differences generate, we will never be free of violence. Jesus showed us the way to Peace from his "throne" on Calvary...the guidebook is in place, all we need do is follow Him! And for those whose beliefs differ from ours, we must extend the hand of tolerance and understanding. If we do not, we fly in the face of Him in who we believe!
Although it is easy to accept Plato's principle, we have an alternative...the peace of Christ. By bringing this to our daily lives, we can make inroads amongst those whose belief system is founded on war and violence.
Pray for Peace, and Dare to Act!
I don't own a gun, am a bad shot the few times I've been "persuaded" to try target practice, and have thought that I was a pacifist, at least iin theory. Then I remember how we became a nation, how the slaves were freed, and how we defeated a dictator bent on controlling the freed. My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil. Freedom comes at a cost. Leaders have to make tough decisions sometimes, including the Founding Fathers, Abe Lincoln, Roosevelt and Truman. We've reaped the sacrifice of others, enough so that our first amendment rights to oppose war are still intact....
I don't own a gun, am a bad shot the few times I've been "persuaded" to try target practice, and have thought that I was a pacifist, at least iin theory. Then I remember how we became a nation, how the slaves were freed, and how we defeated a dictator bent on controlling the freed. My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil. Freedom comes at a cost. Leaders have to make tough decisions sometimes, including the Founding Fathers, Abe Lincoln, Roosevelt and Truman. We've reaped the sacrifice of others, enough so that our first amendment rights to oppose war are still intact....
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The better angels of my nature want to agree with your comments about war. When I traced my family tree, I discovered that our family has representatives who served all the way back to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (both sides), WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and more recently the conflicts in the Mideast. The remains of my great-uncle were shipped home from France during WW1. We do have a tendency to jump into conflicts too readily and have apparently learned little.
The better angels of my nature want to agree with your comments about war. When I traced my family tree, I discovered that our family has representatives who served all the way back to the Revolutionary War, the Civil War (both sides), WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and more recently the conflicts in the Mideast. The remains of my great-uncle were shipped home from France during WW1. We do have a tendency to jump into conflicts too readily and have apparently learned little.
We as a race place too much emphasis on our differences and not enough on the common ground between us...the "No Man's Land" of human relations, if you will. As long as we continue to focus on the issues which divide us, and allow our institutions (government, media, entertainment) to perpetuate the stereotypes and biases which these differences generate, we will never be free of violence. Jesus showed us the way to Peace from his "throne" on Calvary...the guidebook is in place, all we need do is follow Him! And for those whose beliefs differ from ours, we must extend the hand of tolerance and understanding. If we do not, we fly in the face of Him in who we believe!
Although it is easy to accept Plato's principle, we have an alternative...the peace of Christ. By bringing this to our daily lives, we can make inroads amongst those whose belief system is founded on war and violence.
Pray for Peace, and Dare to Act!
We as a race place too much emphasis on our differences and not enough on the common ground between us...the "No Man's Land" of human relations, if you will. As long as we continue to focus on the issues which divide us, and allow our institutions (government, media, entertainment) to perpetuate the stereotypes and biases which these differences generate, we will never be free of violence. Jesus showed us the way to Peace from his "throne" on Calvary...the guidebook is in place, all we need do is follow Him! And for those whose beliefs differ from ours, we must extend the hand of tolerance and understanding. If we do not, we fly in the face of Him in who we believe!
Although it is easy to accept Plato's principle, we have an alternative...the peace of Christ. By bringing this to our daily lives, we can make inroads amongst those whose belief system is founded on war and violence.
Pray for Peace, and Dare to Act!
I don't own a gun, am a bad shot the few times I've been "persuaded" to try target practice, and have thought that I was a pacifist, at least iin theory. Then I remember how we became a nation, how the slaves were freed, and how we defeated a dictator bent on controlling the freed. My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil. Freedom comes at a cost. Leaders have to make tough decisions sometimes, including the Founding Fathers, Abe Lincoln, Roosevelt and Truman. We've reaped the sacrifice of others, enough so that our first amendment rights to oppose war are still intact....
I don't own a gun, am a bad shot the few times I've been "persuaded" to try target practice, and have thought that I was a pacifist, at least iin theory. Then I remember how we became a nation, how the slaves were freed, and how we defeated a dictator bent on controlling the freed. My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil. Freedom comes at a cost. Leaders have to make tough decisions sometimes, including the Founding Fathers, Abe Lincoln, Roosevelt and Truman. We've reaped the sacrifice of others, enough so that our first amendment rights to oppose war are still intact....
"But I also know that many of those who die in warfare sacrifice themselves to save others."
I am sorry, but unless they are there, unarmed, and jump on a grenade to save everyone else around them, they are not "sacrificing" their lives... they are taking lives in order to save a particular ideology and way of life.
Why do we only think about those who died defending this country and not also consider those they killed?
I am not trying to vilify those who fight for their country; even though I do not believe a Christian can ever justify defending anything other than the Kingdom of God (which the U.S. is not... nor is any other country). I am simply tired of Christians honoring deaths which were not truly sacrificial in the sense that they laid down their lives for their friends. The ultimate goal of someone in war is to kill to defend their friends, not to die for them.
"But I also know that many of those who die in warfare sacrifice themselves to save others."
I am sorry, but unless they are there, unarmed, and jump on a grenade to save everyone else around them, they are not "sacrificing" their lives... they are taking lives in order to save a particular ideology and way of life.
Why do we only think about those who died defending this country and not also consider those they killed?
I am not trying to vilify those who fight for their country; even though I do not believe a Christian can ever justify defending anything other than the Kingdom of God (which the U.S. is not... nor is any other country). I am simply tired of Christians honoring deaths which were not truly sacrificial in the sense that they laid down their lives for their friends. The ultimate goal of someone in war is to kill to defend their friends, not to die for them.
ando said:
"My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil."
Of course, your position is one of dualism. In fact, there is no "reality of evil." Evil is not a noun but an adjective. If it were a noun, then it must be a part of creation. Since nothing in creation came into existence apart from God, then, if evil is real, God created it. That wouldn't be a very nice God and is certainly not consistent with the God of the bible.
In a sense, what you are saying is that your pacifism takes a back seat to children of God who act in evil ways. You are saying that they are beyond redemption. You are saying that your life, or the life of those you love, is more valuable than theirs. Ultimately, it is a selfish stance to take. God values all life. We are called to love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, and to refuse to repay evil with evil. Pacifism must never take a back seat.
ando said:
"My pacifism has to take a back seat to the reality of evil."
Of course, your position is one of dualism. In fact, there is no "reality of evil." Evil is not a noun but an adjective. If it were a noun, then it must be a part of creation. Since nothing in creation came into existence apart from God, then, if evil is real, God created it. That wouldn't be a very nice God and is certainly not consistent with the God of the bible.
In a sense, what you are saying is that your pacifism takes a back seat to children of God who act in evil ways. You are saying that they are beyond redemption. You are saying that your life, or the life of those you love, is more valuable than theirs. Ultimately, it is a selfish stance to take. God values all life. We are called to love our enemies, pray for those who persecute us, and to refuse to repay evil with evil. Pacifism must never take a back seat.
Thank God and those brave men and women who died for your right to believe what you do. Evil is as old as Satan, a fallen angel. Your reality is that Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. were not beyond redemption. That perhaps a little conjoling and peace talks could have prevented them from killing millions of people.
I take issue with you calling me selfish. You don't ANYTHING about me, and ultimately your argument is impotent in the face of the reality of a fallen world. It not only does not work in the real world, it is not Scripturally-based.
Thank God and those brave men and women who died for your right to believe what you do. Evil is as old as Satan, a fallen angel. Your reality is that Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, etc. were not beyond redemption. That perhaps a little conjoling and peace talks could have prevented them from killing millions of people.
I take issue with you calling me selfish. You don't ANYTHING about me, and ultimately your argument is impotent in the face of the reality of a fallen world. It not only does not work in the real world, it is not Scripturally-based.
ando,
my argument is the scripturally based one. sorry, but choosing your life over another's is selfish. i called that choice selfish, not you outright. satan is evil, but evil is not satan for if evil is personified, then God created evil. that is heresy... condemned throughout the history of Christianity.
the 'real world' that you are talking about... hey, isn't that what Jesus came to change and redeem... and didn't he call his church to be a part of his plan? how can enact any sort of change when we adopt the exact same means as this 'fallen' world?
i don't discount the bravery of those who fight, i simply think that there is a higher bravery to which Christians are called... to love, even our enemies, more than we love ourselves.
ando,
my argument is the scripturally based one. sorry, but choosing your life over another's is selfish. i called that choice selfish, not you outright. satan is evil, but evil is not satan for if evil is personified, then God created evil. that is heresy... condemned throughout the history of Christianity.
the 'real world' that you are talking about... hey, isn't that what Jesus came to change and redeem... and didn't he call his church to be a part of his plan? how can enact any sort of change when we adopt the exact same means as this 'fallen' world?
i don't discount the bravery of those who fight, i simply think that there is a higher bravery to which Christians are called... to love, even our enemies, more than we love ourselves.
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