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Eco-Justice: Getting There from Here

As I look at where we need to get, pronto -- 350 parts per million or less carbon in the atmosphere, sustainable use of planetary resources, and a world economy consistent with those things -- and where we are (none of the above), my question is, what strategies will help us get there from here?

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Now is the time to ask, as Congress considers some kind of climate change legislation; as Bill McKibben reflects in the July issue of Sojourners, that means "giv[ing] up the chance to get all you've dreamed of for the possibility of getting some of what you need." (Sojo's current action alert helps you ask Congress to make that bill include real aid for poor nations suffering from the global warming rich nations caused.)

For a problem this big, we are going to need the kind of radical vision that faith is good at. As the Israelites leaving Egypt needed to liberate imaginations held in thrall to empire, we've got to name the spiritual as well as economic forces at work.

So I am mostly in agreement with arguments, like this one on the National Council of Churches Eco-Justice blog, which demand radical changes to an economic system which is destroying the biosphere, concentrating wealth so that 1 percent of adults own 40 percent of global assets, and allowing tens of thousands of kids to starve or die of preventable diseases every day. And I want to look into the radical argument that, in addition to choosing things like compact florescent light bulbs and green jobs which try to de-link economic growth from carbon emission, we might eventually need to re-examine the idea of economic growth itself. This idea has such far-reaching implications for how we live, work, and save that I haven't even begun to digest it.

But for a problem this big, strategy has to go with vision. So while it's important for there to be visionary voices pointing out that the legislation before Congress is nowhere near good enough, we also have to try our darnedest to get that legislation passed -- and not just because something is better than nothing and the planet has no time to lose.

We need it because having something not good enough will help people get used to the idea that it's possible to have anything at all. We need it because having something not good enough will help people start seeing the outlines of something that is good enough. And we need it because, if our Kyoto-abstaining, gas-guzzling nation doesn't get Congress' buy-in before going to Copenhagen this December, other countries will have zero reason to believe anything our negotiators say.

Vision also has to be as precise and discerning as possible. I've heard people critique the cap-and-trade idea because it's "based on greed," which is true in a limited sense. Neoliberal economics' self-interest-based rhetoric hasn't succeeded in fundamentally changing people's souls -- but its rules have been very effective at giving people information relevant to buying, selling, and accumulating, while screening out information about those things' effects on the environment and on our fellow human beings.

We hide our current market system's rule-setting with jargon, rhetoric, and the Fed's closed-door policy. Bad idea, because the wrong rules produce things like mafiosos, monopolies, AIG -- or, as that Eco-Justice blog puts it, a system that acts as if there were an unending resource base, infinitely expanding markets, and a bottomless disposal capacity.

Can cap-and-trade's attempt to make markets recognize our limited resource base work? Could we also demand some meaningful form of triple bottom-line accounting, where companies must make some kind of report about their social and environmental, as well as financial, impact?

'Writing the vision and making it plain' is going to be a messy, on-the-fly process. But it's one we need to keep doing, as fast as we can.

Elizabeth Palmberg is an assistant editor of Sojourners.

__________________________________________

As a courtesy to the Eco-Justice blog to which this blog responds, here is the comment of its writer:

As the author who penned the NCC Eco-Justice blog referred to in this article, I must say that I appreciate Ms. Palmberg's critique. Perhaps it all comes down to one's eco-eschatology. I believe that as we pass peak oil, peak coal, peak fish, peak water, peak wood, and peak copper while simultaneously poisoning the air, water and land, we are headed towards a disruption that people are really, really not going to enjoy. Given that eschatology, the question of whether GM dealers deserve to continue existing, or CEOs deserve large salaries, or whether people will give up large houses or cars becomes moot. If compassion is the heart of true religion, and mitigating suffering is part of our realized eschatology, then the time for action is now. (Actually, I think that the time for action was after WWII when we could have gone to a 20 hour work week, dismantled our military, left women in the workforce, not promoted consumerism as the meaning of life, and made a host of infrastructural changes that would have made our society more sustainable and richer.) It might seem hard or expensive to make changes now, but it will be much worse later on.

I attended a Congressional briefing on Friday. Present were: Michael Wara, Stanford University Law School; David Bookbinder, Chief Climate Counsel, Sierra Club; Cecil Corbin-Mark, WeACT for Environmental Justice; Margaret E. Sheehan, lead partner, EcoLaw; and Richard Sweeney, Resources for the Future. Only Cecil Corbin-Mark had the temerity to say straight up that Waxman Markey (H.R.. 2454) as it is currently written is a total turkey, and worse than nothing. The others, more solicitous of not burning bridges perhaps, just gave detailed, wonky, statistics-and-graphs explanations of their concerns about the bill, while sounding objective and not making any recommendations. Significantly, however, Wara's presentation showed that there would be no serious attempt at carbon reduction until 2040 (well past tipping point), Bookbinder explained why the bill favored keeping filthy old coal plants online, Corbin-Mark explained how the bill is an environmental justice disaster, and Sheehan elucidated the provisions for burning bio-mass, which because they compound carbon emissions with deforestation might be worse than coal. So, without saying it, they said it - Waxman-Markey is worthless. Of course, the hope is that the bill can be strengthened in its final hours before a vote. Wanna bet?

I also question the notion that we have to show up in Copenhagen with something. I used to believe this, but I suddenly realized, when reading about Latin American environmentalism, that I had absorbed an kind of U.S. chauvinism. I'm not absolutely sure that we do have to lead in Copenhagen. After all, we're not leading the global environmental movement ideologically, legally, or politically anyway. It is true that we have a disproportionate capacity to be an obstacle, but I'm unconvinced that we wouldn't all be a lot better off paying attention to Ecuador, Peru, Pacific Islanders, and others. Just a thought.

As for our local whipping person/climate change denier: I love the idea that peer reviewed science would clear matters up, but peer reviewed science has not done itself any favors in recent years, and the American public is seriously skeptical. Tobacco obfuscation, Teflon, BPA, nuclear power, etc. There are always impressive scientists on both sides of these issues. So here's two things to consider:

Whom do you trust? I'm fascinated by the "climate change as conspiracy" thing. How again does Bill McKibben get rich off of this? Does Lester Brown get to hot tub with the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders for his work on Plan B? What is the conspiracy exactly? That just don't make no sense to me. Rachel Carson died of cancer. Actually, climate change is the ultimate indictment of the status quo. I don't see that people in power benefit from it in any way, except if they still think that making moral choices counts for something.

The challenge with climate change deniers is not that they don't believe the science per se. Consider Creationists, for a moment. Does any educated person actually want to be in a position of having to say that God invented the world in six days out of nothing about six thousand years ago (with the fossils already in there to test our righteousness)? Of course not! It's absurd. (It is a powerful creation myth--good arguments for stewardship, despite troubling nonsense about "having dominion" and "subduing the earth" and especially "go forth and multiply"--but still a myth.) The reason there are Creationists is that if they cede the Creation story, their entire religion, based on (selective) Biblical literalism, falls apart.

Similarly, to acknowledge that climate change is a problem requires us to surrender some very sacred cows. One is the mythical "free market." (Might work, but has never been tried.) Another is material wealth=well being. Another is that it is just fine if I live in a 5000 square foot house and vacation in Cancun while half the world's population lives on $2 a day or less--those people are less worthy, righteous, capable, able, deserving than I am or they'd have what I've got, since resources are limitless. The myth that the market will turn everyone's greed into the greater good goes out the window as we realize that Adam Smith's "invisible hand in the marketplace" has been giving us the finger since the Industrial Revolution. Yet another is the usually unconscious association of private property with freedom. The belief that human beings are the pinnacle and point of Creation, rather than a dubious evolutionary experiment that has not concluded yet is called into question.

Another sacred cow that goes is the proposition that small government is a good idea--at the least, one must acknowledge that some level of effective, enforcing global governance would be necessary to successfully reduce CO2 to 300 ppm. (350 ppm is quite optimistic for climate stabilization.) So, it's pointless to argue atmospheric science with these people. That's not really where they are stuck cognitively. Their entire world view is dismantled by acknowledging a finite Earth.

Spiritually, there is another sticking point, and that is culpability/guilt. Just like slave owners before Emancipation, acknowledging that the very basis of our society--owning slaves or emitting carbon--is damaging, unfair, and cruel involves acknowledgement of sin. That is, if I accept that driving my SUV to work every day from the suburbs is changing the climate (causing drought, famine, epidemics, species loss, soil salinization, and setting the conditions for genocide as in Darfur, etc., etc.) then I have to admit that doing so is "missing the mark" of both stewardship of Creation and love of neighbor. If I have no idea how to live a carbon neutral life, then I am locked into a state of perpetual sin. Easier to say that it isn't a problem.

I'm pretty sure that I read something recently about the way out of sin, however in a book called simply, The Book, or Biblios. Apparently some eccentric Jewish carpenter from Galilee had some stuff to say about it a long time ago. Of course, science can't prove he existed...

-EarthQuaker

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by: Afia Aimee

01-23-2010 @ 3:51pm

I always appreciate the people for their efforts towards the eco-friendliness & glad to see the one @ SUPERIOR LIGHTING, playing yet an important role by launching their energy efficient LEDs & soothing light bulbs.

by: Afia Aimee

01-23-2010 @ 1:51pm

I always appreciate the people for their efforts towards the eco-friendliness & glad to see the one @ SUPERIOR LIGHTING, playing yet an important role by launching their energy efficient LEDs & soothing light bulbs.

by: lemuria

08-12-2009 @ 1:35am

Why does everyone delegate discussions like this to government, as if government is the cure to any large problem faced by a large group of people the government represents?

Corporations are made up of persons who make individual decisions in their own lives, and in terms of how their business models should be structured. Their employees, likewise, are individual persons who make individual decisions in their daily lives, and in terms of their work ethic. Jumping immediately to government means that it has not proven possible to convince these particular individuals to change the way they live, and therefore government force must be applied to them in order to make them comply with whatever ideology is being expressed.

Haven't we gotten past that? Isn't that the whole point behind the liberal Christian movement? You know, relational, changing the world, helping people come to Christ, stuff like that? God is so much bigger than the climate, so why would anyone think government force is necessary to solve these type of problems? Desiring and moving to create change is one thing, trying to force change on people who haven't acquiesced to that change is just childish.

by: justintime

07-14-2009 @ 3:21pm

squeaky,

I thought you'd get a chuckle out of this:

How to argue with a global warming denier

1. Don't expect them to change their mind.
If someone really wanted to know if global warming is a reality they would just go to a legitimate source like the National Academy of Sciences' website and look it up.

2. Limit your arguments to written debates.
Don't get involved in a formal debate with a global warming denier, don't get into it around the dinner table and, whatever you do, don't call in the local AM radio show. Understand that your opponent will have no evidence on his side so he will have to lie. If it's a lie you haven't prepared for you'll get burned. In a written debate you can check out any bogus claims.

3. Familiarize yourself with the standard denier talking points.
One great thing about the global warming denial movement is they keep rehashing the same old arguments. The 31,000 scientists that signed a petition, global cooling in the '70s. Memorize the rebuttals to these and you'll be off to a good start.

4. Don't get trapped into defending Al Gore.
A lot of deniers hate Al Gore with a passion and will accuse you of worshiping him. Al Gore won the friggin' Nobel Peace Prize, he doesn't need defending.

5. Realize the denier's dubious motives.
Obviously the denier isn't interested in real science. Most of them are right-wing religious fanatics who associate environmentalism with the political left and thus Satan. Some deniers are worried about the economic costs of some of the proposed solutions and are willing to entertain anything, no matter how unfounded, that safeguards their wallet.

6. Keep the subject about science.
The question is whether or not humans are contributing significantly to global warming. Not the size of Al Gore's house or China not having to comply with the Kyoto Protocol.

7. Be warned your opponent will try to redefine science.
Many global warming deniers are also creationists and are familiar with how to argue for something that's not true. Because science is open ended and always being modified, the denier will try to equate scientific consensus with any crackpot hypothesis he can imagine. Remember, just because something might possibly be wrong it's not equivalent to something that is almost certainly wrong.

8, The denier will challenge your sources.
Because he has no credible sources and all you have to do is quote NASA, the EPA, the IPCC or pretty much any university program or scientific body your opponent will have to find reasons to discredit anyone in a position to know what they are talking about. Be prepared to explain why a university press is more legitimate than a right-wing blog. Then be prepared to be accused of being closed-minded.

9. Be sure to check his sources.
Remember, global warming deniers have no facts on their side. They also assume other people don't check footnotes and references and will easily be exposed as either uninformed or dishonest with the least bit of fact checking.

10. Have fun!
Arguing with global warming deniers is easy and satisfying. It makes you feel smart even if you're a bit below average. Feel free to jump in with both feet because all the science is on your side and they are trying to defend some sinister conspiracy involving the entire science community, the media and all the world's governments.

http://www.birminghamfreepress.com/v8/0709.html

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 4:31pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade? Or at least change the rhetoric to "climate change"? At least then the argument wouldn't be so laughable.

We hide our current market system's rule-setting with jargon, rhetoric, and the Fed's closed-door policy. Bad idea, because the wrong rules produce things like mafiosos, monopolies, AIG - or, as that Eco-Justice blog puts it, a system that acts as if there were an unending resource base, infinitely expanding markets, and a bottomless disposal capacity.

Having the wrong rules indeed results in disastrous effects, which is why the Federal Reserve system must be abolished in favor of a free banking system that would be transparent to the people. Greedy banks won't be able to swindle customers because of competition, monopolies would disappear because the Fed IS a monopoly, and places like AIG wouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money on things they couldn't have afforded otherwise. Centralizing power only makes things worse because secrets remain within the minds of the few, rather than the society as a whole.

Cap and trade is great for big businesses because they can afford to trade. Smaller businesses do not have as much capital accumulation. So if you want to make big business bigger, go for cap and trade legislation. But I'm not for big business, I'm for ethical and efficient use of scarce resources (which helps everyone).

At the heart of this entire ethos of creation care is the reality of scarcity, and when we do not properly steward scarce resources, we are harming the environment in various ways, not least of which is pollution.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 5:08pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade?

And what planet are you living on, xtrafree?

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 10:30pm

Same as you. Why do you think most scientists and alarmists have changed the phrasing to "climate change" ?

Look it up.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 11:06pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet is cooling, xfree?

My planet, Planet Earth, is warming.

Look it up.

by: ando

06-19-2009 @ 11:58pm

perhaps the planet Earth is getting warmer and cooler; as well as drier and wetter. It may depend on where you live. Our school district has had 7 snow days the past two years. Before that it hadn't had any for about 8 years. I think climate change is more apropos than global warming. We should be doing all we can to lessen our imprint; but it should be out of love for the Creator, not out of a knee-jerk agenda.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 9:17am

I base it on reports of the data.

If I post a link to an article or website, it'd be futile because you'd counter with, "they're some right-wing nutjob site!" or "they're just some libertarian out-of-touch group!"

So, I have looked it up. I spent quite a few months looking through some data, reports on the data, and the claims of both sides.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 1:03pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet has been cooling for the past decade, xfree?

I base it on reports of the data.

Which data?
Whose data?
..............................................................
Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes that increasing greenhouse gas concentrations resulting from human activity such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation are responsible for most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century. The IPCC also concludes that natural phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes produced most of the warming from pre-industrial times to 1950 and had a small cooling effect afterward.

These basic conclusions have been endorsed by more than 45 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.

Climate model projections summarized in the latest IPCC report indicate that the global surface temperature will probably rise a further 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) during the twenty-first century. The uncertainty in this estimate arises from the use of models with differing sensitivity to greenhouse gas concentrations and the use of differing estimates of future greenhouse gas emissions. Some other uncertainties include how warming and related changes will vary from region to region around the globe. Most studies focus on the period up to 2100. However, warming is expected to continue beyond 2100 even if emissions stop, because of the large heat capacity of the oceans and the long lifetime of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Increasing global temperature will cause sea levels to rise and will change the amount and pattern of precipitation, probably including expansion of subtropical deserts. The continuing retreat of glaciers, permafrost and sea ice is expected, with the Arctic region being particularly affected. Other likely effects include shrinkage of the Amazon rainforest and Boreal forests, increases in the intensity of extreme weather events, species extinctions and changes in agricultural yields.
..................................................

Considering what's at stake, I'm betting on the broad scientific consensus that global warming is happening right now.
I'm not willing to bet the future of my planet on faith based science.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 2:21pm

Seriously? You expect me to believe an intergovernmental panel, who couldn't possibly have an ulterior motive for their conclusions, along with scientists who have a so-called consensus (which has nothing to do with science), who have only looked at warming over the past 120 years, and who only look at two statistics-global temperatures with CO2 emissions (most of which aren't coming from humans)? Correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.

It is also true that Mars and Pluto have warmed. So what behavior by human beings are you going to blame for that? Or perhaps it has something to do with solar energy rather than carbon emissions? But no, your beloved IPCC won't think that way because it doesn't fit or defend their policy agendas. If you check out the rise in solar output with the same rise in temperature rising on earth, you'll find a more tightly-knit correlation than CO2 emissions and temperature increases.

By the way, most of the language in that quote is forecasting, which is not proof.

And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm. It's actually pretty laughable.

So, I'm not going to provide for you "my data," because you've already done exactly what I said you would do, and question whatever source(s) you want me to produce. So, let me ask you: why exactly do you trust the source you are quoting? Consensus doesn't confirm truth, it proves people agree. And as we know, many people can be very wrong in what they agree about. I don't trust your sources, you won't trust mine. This debate is futile here.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 2:36pm

The question is...what kind of research are you talking about? What and who are your sources? Sources matter, they really do. If you consider all sources as equally valid, you will reap a harvest of confusion and uncertainty on this issue. How do you sort through all that?

A far more productive means of doing research is to consider the expert testimony as valid. The experts are those who study climate change as their jobs and have devoted their lives to the research. Productive research would entail studying their work and their publications in peer-reviewed journals. What does the data say if you limit your search to studying what the experts have to say? Or are you also one who thinks scientists are all a bunch of atheists whose testimony should be ignored and discounted? Does expert testimony hold any weight with you?

I agree that we need ethical and efficient use of scarce resources. Ironically, if we actually started doing that, it would mean less fossil fuel use, it would mean less pollution, it would mean we would be addressing the issues of Global Climate Change, all at the same time.

This is a new argument for me. This argument that there is a choice between stewarding scarce resources and attacking Climate Change. this idea that if we attack Climate Change, we will be ignoring other important environmental issues. The reality is, you can't do one without the other. They are all connected and intertwined.

As for Cap and Trade--it benefits small businesses because they produce far fewer greenhouse gases, and can sell their credits to larger businesses. It is also easier to change a small business over to a greener business because they have far smaller infrastructure to convert, so the money they get from the Cap and Trade deals will help finance those changes. Also, if the legislation is written correctly, there can be incentives and loans that can be added that will help small businesses do just that. It would also help spur on innovation into green technologies--new businesses that develop green technologies also presumably would be producing fewer greenhouse gases, and they can trade their credits, too.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 3:05pm

Yes, it is true you are no scientist. So what is laughable is that you draw all these conclusions about something you know nothing about. What is laughable is that you so easily discount the testimony of experts who know a HELL of a lot more about science than you do (I'm referring to climate scientists). THAT is what is laughable.

What I don't understand is, since you are not a scientist, why aren't you ASKING more questions rather than declaring what you think you know the truth is? Is that in itself not LAUGHABLE? If I came into your workplace and did that to you, would you not laugh? Would you not say "get out of here, you idiot?" Would not your demeanor be very different if instead came in and ASKED you questions about what you did, how, and why?

"And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm."

The only thing laughable is that comment. A single degree--you note a single degree C. Is that the same as F? This change is also average change. Average does not mean that everyone in all parts of the world will experience 1 degree C of temperature rise. It means some will have much higher than 1 degree, while others will have much lower than 1 degree. For example, the poles experience higher rises in temperature than just 1 degree C. Do you know how much ice has melted in these regions? Do you know what albedo is? do you know what a feedback loop is? Do you know why that matters?

1 degree may not seem like much to you, but if you lived in MN, you would know that 1 degree can mean the difference between snow and rain. It can be very significant in areas where water hovers around the melting/freezing point. and in the arctic, even small changes in temperature can have huge impacts. But, what do I know? I'm just a scientist. I couldn't possibly have any knowledge or understanding of this subject that is worth listening to.

I know I'm being harsher than usual, but this is really getting tiring--if you admit you are no scientist, it seems to me the most valid position is to take the time to learn about this issue from ACTUAL scientists. You need to discern the difference between valid sources and invalid sources, but you seem to insist that all sources are valid. I really did think you were more informed than that, but you are proving me otherwise.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:10pm

Sorry, xfree,

You may believe planet Earth has been cooling for the last
decade.
But you won't convince anyone else using this flimsy argument.
Do you really believe what you claim is true?

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:30pm

Ando fields another brilliant argument for ignoring the threat of global warming:
Ando's school district has experienced the most snow days in 8 years, therefore the planet is cooling.
Or at the very worst, the planet is both cooling and warming, depending on where you live.

Ando must believe in faith based science.
And what is the "knee-jerk agenda" to which he refers?

by: prk

06-21-2009 @ 10:33am

I have looked it up. The planet has been cooling and the hottest year on recored has been changed from 1998 back to 1938. Here a link, one of many.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/articl...

We all should be very skeptical of anything from the UN they want money for nothing from the me and you and remember what your mother said "Misery loves company".

by: xfree9

06-21-2009 @ 5:44pm

Thanks for linking this. I've already been trampled on by the know-it-alls (see below). Somehow they believe that the IPCC contributors are unbiased and have no ulterior motive, or have no conflicts of interest. I suppose the scientists who claim global warming is caused by man are completely and utterly innocent, selfless, and only care about the planet. At least that's what they'd lead you to believe.

by: mscynthia

06-21-2009 @ 10:25pm

The big magic trick is getting them all to become transparent.

Oh no we can't do that. It would inhibbit our creativity. We might be risking national security.

Oh give me a break.
Its time to stop the economic shell game.

Real economic creativity is completely translucent and accessible to everyone.

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 4:31pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade? Or at least change the rhetoric to "climate change"? At least then the argument wouldn't be so laughable.

We hide our current market system's rule-setting with jargon, rhetoric, and the Fed's closed-door policy. Bad idea, because the wrong rules produce things like mafiosos, monopolies, AIG - or, as that Eco-Justice blog puts it, a system that acts as if there were an unending resource base, infinitely expanding markets, and a bottomless disposal capacity.

Having the wrong rules indeed results in disastrous effects, which is why the Federal Reserve system must be abolished in favor of a free banking system that would be transparent to the people. Greedy banks won't be able to swindle customers because of competition, monopolies would disappear because the Fed IS a monopoly, and places like AIG wouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money on things they couldn't have afforded otherwise. Centralizing power only makes things worse because secrets remain within the minds of the few, rather than the society as a whole.

Cap and trade is great for big businesses because they can afford to trade. Smaller businesses do not have as much capital accumulation. So if you want to make big business bigger, go for cap and trade legislation. But I'm not for big business, I'm for ethical and efficient use of scarce resources (which helps everyone).

At the heart of this entire ethos of creation care is the reality of scarcity, and when we do not properly steward scarce resources, we are harming the environment in various ways, not least of which is pollution.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 5:08pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade?

And what planet are you living on, xtrafree?

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:07am

"Why do you think most scientists and alarmists [sic] have changed the phrasing to 'climate change'?"

They didn't change the phrasing. The two phrases have different, though related, meanings. "Global warming" refers to the observed increase in global atmospheric temperatures, caused primarily by an increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. "Climate change" refers to the observed and projected changes in the earth's climate systems as a result of the aforementioned increase in global atmospheric temperatures. Climate change is not in every location synonymous with average temperature warming. Climate change can involve many factors--rainfall patterns, average nighttime low temperatures, length of growing season, more variable weather patterns, including more extreme weather.Here in the midwest, for example, I've noted the following climate changes over the course of the last two decades or so: longer growing season, wetter winters (which sometimes means snowier winters), drier summers, and higher average nighttime temperatures in the summer.

Although in common usage the two terms are used more or less interchangeably, it's a good idea to keep this distinction in mind.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:08am

I deleted an accidental double posting.

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 10:30pm

Same as you. Why do you think most scientists and alarmists have changed the phrasing to "climate change" ?

Look it up.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 11:06pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet is cooling, xfree?

My planet, Planet Earth, is warming.

Look it up.

by: ando

06-19-2009 @ 11:58pm

perhaps the planet Earth is getting warmer and cooler; as well as drier and wetter. It may depend on where you live. Our school district has had 7 snow days the past two years. Before that it hadn't had any for about 8 years. I think climate change is more apropos than global warming. We should be doing all we can to lessen our imprint; but it should be out of love for the Creator, not out of a knee-jerk agenda.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 9:17am

I base it on reports of the data.

If I post a link to an article or website, it'd be futile because you'd counter with, "they're some right-wing nutjob site!" or "they're just some libertarian out-of-touch group!"

So, I have looked it up. I spent quite a few months looking through some data, reports on the data, and the claims of both sides.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 1:03pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet has been cooling for the past decade, xfree?

I base it on reports of the data.

Which data?
Whose data?
..............................................................
Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes that increasing greenhouse gas concentrations resulting from human activity such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation are responsible for most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century. The IPCC also concludes that natural phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes produced most of the warming from pre-industrial times to 1950 and had a small cooling effect afterward.

These basic conclusions have been endorsed by more than 45 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.

Climate model projections summarized in the latest IPCC report indicate that the global surface temperature will probably rise a further 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) during the twenty-first century. The uncertainty in this estimate arises from the use of models with differing sensitivity to greenhouse gas concentrations and the use of differing estimates of future greenhouse gas emissions. Some other uncertainties include how warming and related changes will vary from region to region around the globe. Most studies focus on the period up to 2100. However, warming is expected to continue beyond 2100 even if emissions stop, because of the large heat capacity of the oceans and the long lifetime of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Increasing global temperature will cause sea levels to rise and will change the amount and pattern of precipitation, probably including expansion of subtropical deserts. The continuing retreat of glaciers, permafrost and sea ice is expected, with the Arctic region being particularly affected. Other likely effects include shrinkage of the Amazon rainforest and Boreal forests, increases in the intensity of extreme weather events, species extinctions and changes in agricultural yields.
..................................................

Considering what's at stake, I'm betting on the broad scientific consensus that global warming is happening right now.
I'm not willing to bet the future of my planet on faith based science.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 2:21pm

Seriously? You expect me to believe an intergovernmental panel, who couldn't possibly have an ulterior motive for their conclusions, along with scientists who have a so-called consensus (which has nothing to do with science), who have only looked at warming over the past 120 years, and who only look at two statistics-global temperatures with CO2 emissions (most of which aren't coming from humans)? Correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.

It is also true that Mars and Pluto have warmed. So what behavior by human beings are you going to blame for that? Or perhaps it has something to do with solar energy rather than carbon emissions? But no, your beloved IPCC won't think that way because it doesn't fit or defend their policy agendas. If you check out the rise in solar output with the same rise in temperature rising on earth, you'll find a more tightly-knit correlation than CO2 emissions and temperature increases.

By the way, most of the language in that quote is forecasting, which is not proof.

And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm. It's actually pretty laughable.

So, I'm not going to provide for you "my data," because you've already done exactly what I said you would do, and question whatever source(s) you want me to produce. So, let me ask you: why exactly do you trust the source you are quoting? Consensus doesn't confirm truth, it proves people agree. And as we know, many people can be very wrong in what they agree about. I don't trust your sources, you won't trust mine. This debate is futile here.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 2:36pm

The question is...what kind of research are you talking about? What and who are your sources? Sources matter, they really do. If you consider all sources as equally valid, you will reap a harvest of confusion and uncertainty on this issue. How do you sort through all that?

A far more productive means of doing research is to consider the expert testimony as valid. The experts are those who study climate change as their jobs and have devoted their lives to the research. Productive research would entail studying their work and their publications in peer-reviewed journals. What does the data say if you limit your search to studying what the experts have to say? Or are you also one who thinks scientists are all a bunch of atheists whose testimony should be ignored and discounted? Does expert testimony hold any weight with you?

I agree that we need ethical and efficient use of scarce resources. Ironically, if we actually started doing that, it would mean less fossil fuel use, it would mean less pollution, it would mean we would be addressing the issues of Global Climate Change, all at the same time.

This is a new argument for me. This argument that there is a choice between stewarding scarce resources and attacking Climate Change. this idea that if we attack Climate Change, we will be ignoring other important environmental issues. The reality is, you can't do one without the other. They are all connected and intertwined.

As for Cap and Trade--it benefits small businesses because they produce far fewer greenhouse gases, and can sell their credits to larger businesses. It is also easier to change a small business over to a greener business because they have far smaller infrastructure to convert, so the money they get from the Cap and Trade deals will help finance those changes. Also, if the legislation is written correctly, there can be incentives and loans that can be added that will help small businesses do just that. It would also help spur on innovation into green technologies--new businesses that develop green technologies also presumably would be producing fewer greenhouse gases, and they can trade their credits, too.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 3:05pm

Yes, it is true you are no scientist. So what is laughable is that you draw all these conclusions about something you know nothing about. What is laughable is that you so easily discount the testimony of experts who know a HELL of a lot more about science than you do (I'm referring to climate scientists). THAT is what is laughable.

What I don't understand is, since you are not a scientist, why aren't you ASKING more questions rather than declaring what you think you know the truth is? Is that in itself not LAUGHABLE? If I came into your workplace and did that to you, would you not laugh? Would you not say "get out of here, you idiot?" Would not your demeanor be very different if instead came in and ASKED you questions about what you did, how, and why?

"And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm."

The only thing laughable is that comment. A single degree--you note a single degree C. Is that the same as F? This change is also average change. Average does not mean that everyone in all parts of the world will experience 1 degree C of temperature rise. It means some will have much higher than 1 degree, while others will have much lower than 1 degree. For example, the poles experience higher rises in temperature than just 1 degree C. Do you know how much ice has melted in these regions? Do you know what albedo is? do you know what a feedback loop is? Do you know why that matters?

1 degree may not seem like much to you, but if you lived in MN, you would know that 1 degree can mean the difference between snow and rain. It can be very significant in areas where water hovers around the melting/freezing point. and in the arctic, even small changes in temperature can have huge impacts. But, what do I know? I'm just a scientist. I couldn't possibly have any knowledge or understanding of this subject that is worth listening to.

I know I'm being harsher than usual, but this is really getting tiring--if you admit you are no scientist, it seems to me the most valid position is to take the time to learn about this issue from ACTUAL scientists. You need to discern the difference between valid sources and invalid sources, but you seem to insist that all sources are valid. I really did think you were more informed than that, but you are proving me otherwise.

by: Afia Aimee

01-23-2010 @ 3:51pm

I always appreciate the people for their efforts towards the eco-friendliness & glad to see the one @ SUPERIOR LIGHTING, playing yet an important role by launching their energy efficient LEDs & soothing light bulbs.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:10pm

Sorry, xfree,

You may believe planet Earth has been cooling for the last
decade.
But you won't convince anyone else using this flimsy argument.
Do you really believe what you claim is true?

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:30pm

Ando fields another brilliant argument for ignoring the threat of global warming:
Ando's school district has experienced the most snow days in 8 years, therefore the planet is cooling.
Or at the very worst, the planet is both cooling and warming, depending on where you live.

Ando must believe in faith based science.
And what is the "knee-jerk agenda" to which he refers?

by: prk

06-21-2009 @ 10:33am

I have looked it up. The planet has been cooling and the hottest year on recored has been changed from 1998 back to 1938. Here a link, one of many.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/articl...

We all should be very skeptical of anything from the UN they want money for nothing from the me and you and remember what your mother said "Misery loves company".

by: xfree9

06-21-2009 @ 5:44pm

Thanks for linking this. I've already been trampled on by the know-it-alls (see below). Somehow they believe that the IPCC contributors are unbiased and have no ulterior motive, or have no conflicts of interest. I suppose the scientists who claim global warming is caused by man are completely and utterly innocent, selfless, and only care about the planet. At least that's what they'd lead you to believe.

by: mscynthia

06-21-2009 @ 10:25pm

The big magic trick is getting them all to become transparent.

Oh no we can't do that. It would inhibbit our creativity. We might be risking national security.

Oh give me a break.
Its time to stop the economic shell game.

Real economic creativity is completely translucent and accessible to everyone.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:07am

"Why do you think most scientists and alarmists [sic] have changed the phrasing to 'climate change'?"

They didn't change the phrasing. The two phrases have different, though related, meanings. "Global warming" refers to the observed increase in global atmospheric temperatures, caused primarily by an increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. "Climate change" refers to the observed and projected changes in the earth's climate systems as a result of the aforementioned increase in global atmospheric temperatures. Climate change is not in every location synonymous with average temperature warming. Climate change can involve many factors--rainfall patterns, average nighttime low temperatures, length of growing season, more variable weather patterns, including more extreme weather.Here in the midwest, for example, I've noted the following climate changes over the course of the last two decades or so: longer growing season, wetter winters (which sometimes means snowier winters), drier summers, and higher average nighttime temperatures in the summer.

Although in common usage the two terms are used more or less interchangeably, it's a good idea to keep this distinction in mind.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:08am

I deleted an accidental double posting.

by: prk

06-26-2009 @ 2:54pm

Justintime,

Here is another example of where I get this stuff.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157...

by: justintime

06-26-2009 @ 3:30pm

Prk,

This is another 'opinion' piece from a business journal (WSJ).
This is not a scientific opinion -- it's hearsay from a layperson.

And it doesn't mention your alleged conspiracy to take over the planet,
establish a world government and deny us our rights.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:28pm

Don't get politics confused with science, xfree.

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 12:01pm

Here's what's going on here.

justintime doesn't know any more about climate science than any of us do. justintime reads what climate scientists have to say on the subject to learn about it. justintime cuts and pastes what they have to say on the subject to inform other people. Nothing wrong with this.

However, justintime can't engage in a discussion about the issue or refute any of the information that you provide because he can't. Not because you're necessarily right, but because justintime doesn't know enough about climate science to do so because it's incredibly complicated, and he's an amateur, like all of us. His only weapon is to accuse your sources of bias or political motivations. He has no way of picking apart the data from your sources. Expecting him to do so would be like expecting me to perform heart surgery. I just don't know enough to do it. Just like justintime doesn't know enough about climate science.

justintime feels good when he can tell other people how stoopid they are. "Me smart; him stoopid." justintime needs to learn more about complicated climate science before telling others they don't know enough.

by: xfree9

06-24-2009 @ 2:15pm

I think that's a fair assessment. Maybe justintime would be very smart to heed that feedback. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, I've just not been convinced yet, and I have a family to feed, and my interests are not so broad as to study climate change and all the other things I want to study as well. I already admitted I'm not an expert, but one need not be an expert to be completely convinced something isn't quite right.

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 7:27pm

Since you've finally jumped into this discussion, tell us what your position is vis a vis global climate change.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:26pm

This is just another POLITICAL website -- a Canadian 'conservative' site.
Please, no more political websites.
This is a scientific discussion on the question of global climate change.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 9:32pm

Funny thing about "conservatives" isn't it? Since both "conservative" and "conservation" have the the same Latin root, one has to wonder what it is that "conservatives" are so bent on "conserving." As essayist Scott Russell Sanders wrote, "The word 'conservative' ought to have some connection to the word 'conserve.' If you're going to call yourself conservative, you ought to be clear about what it is you want to conserve. Many conservatives, if they're honest, will say, 'I want to conserve as much money as possible in private hands, and I want to protect every opportunity to increase that private wealth, regardless of the cost to society or planet.' If we keep treating the accumulation of money by individuals and corporations as the highest good, we will continue to degrade Earth's living systems, and we will leave a sadly diminished world for future generations. That's as immoral a path as I can imagine" (http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-23-scott-r...).

D

by: prk

06-26-2009 @ 2:54pm

Justintime,

Here is another example of where I get this stuff.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157...

by: justintime

06-26-2009 @ 3:30pm

Prk,

This is another 'opinion' piece from a business journal (WSJ).
This is not a scientific opinion -- it's hearsay from a layperson.

And it doesn't mention your alleged conspiracy to take over the planet,
establish a world government and deny us our rights.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:28pm

Don't get politics confused with science, xfree.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 4:31pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade? Or at least change the rhetoric to "climate change"? At least then the argument wouldn't be so laughable.

We hide our current market system's rule-setting with jargon, rhetoric, and the Fed's closed-door policy. Bad idea, because the wrong rules produce things like mafiosos, monopolies, AIG - or, as that Eco-Justice blog puts it, a system that acts as if there were an unending resource base, infinitely expanding markets, and a bottomless disposal capacity.

Having the wrong rules indeed results in disastrous effects, which is why the Federal Reserve system must be abolished in favor of a free banking system that would be transparent to the people. Greedy banks won't be able to swindle customers because of competition, monopolies would disappear because the Fed IS a monopoly, and places like AIG wouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money on things they couldn't have afforded otherwise. Centralizing power only makes things worse because secrets remain within the minds of the few, rather than the society as a whole.

Cap and trade is great for big businesses because they can afford to trade. Smaller businesses do not have as much capital accumulation. So if you want to make big business bigger, go for cap and trade legislation. But I'm not for big business, I'm for ethical and efficient use of scarce resources (which helps everyone).

At the heart of this entire ethos of creation care is the reality of scarcity, and when we do not properly steward scarce resources, we are harming the environment in various ways, not least of which is pollution.

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 4:31pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade? Or at least change the rhetoric to "climate change"? At least then the argument wouldn't be so laughable.

We hide our current market system's rule-setting with jargon, rhetoric, and the Fed's closed-door policy. Bad idea, because the wrong rules produce things like mafiosos, monopolies, AIG - or, as that Eco-Justice blog puts it, a system that acts as if there were an unending resource base, infinitely expanding markets, and a bottomless disposal capacity.

Having the wrong rules indeed results in disastrous effects, which is why the Federal Reserve system must be abolished in favor of a free banking system that would be transparent to the people. Greedy banks won't be able to swindle customers because of competition, monopolies would disappear because the Fed IS a monopoly, and places like AIG wouldn't be able to spend taxpayer money on things they couldn't have afforded otherwise. Centralizing power only makes things worse because secrets remain within the minds of the few, rather than the society as a whole.

Cap and trade is great for big businesses because they can afford to trade. Smaller businesses do not have as much capital accumulation. So if you want to make big business bigger, go for cap and trade legislation. But I'm not for big business, I'm for ethical and efficient use of scarce resources (which helps everyone).

At the heart of this entire ethos of creation care is the reality of scarcity, and when we do not properly steward scarce resources, we are harming the environment in various ways, not least of which is pollution.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 5:08pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade?

And what planet are you living on, xtrafree?

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 5:08pm

Could somebody please let Ms. Palmberg know that the planet has been cooling for the past decade?

And what planet are you living on, xtrafree?

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 10:30pm

Same as you. Why do you think most scientists and alarmists have changed the phrasing to "climate change" ?

Look it up.

by: xfree9

06-19-2009 @ 10:30pm

Same as you. Why do you think most scientists and alarmists have changed the phrasing to "climate change" ?

Look it up.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 11:06pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet is cooling, xfree?

My planet, Planet Earth, is warming.

Look it up.

by: justintime

06-19-2009 @ 11:06pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet is cooling, xfree?

My planet, Planet Earth, is warming.

Look it up.

by: ando

06-19-2009 @ 11:58pm

perhaps the planet Earth is getting warmer and cooler; as well as drier and wetter. It may depend on where you live. Our school district has had 7 snow days the past two years. Before that it hadn't had any for about 8 years. I think climate change is more apropos than global warming. We should be doing all we can to lessen our imprint; but it should be out of love for the Creator, not out of a knee-jerk agenda.

by: ando

06-19-2009 @ 11:58pm

perhaps the planet Earth is getting warmer and cooler; as well as drier and wetter. It may depend on where you live. Our school district has had 7 snow days the past two years. Before that it hadn't had any for about 8 years. I think climate change is more apropos than global warming. We should be doing all we can to lessen our imprint; but it should be out of love for the Creator, not out of a knee-jerk agenda.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 9:17am

I base it on reports of the data.

If I post a link to an article or website, it'd be futile because you'd counter with, "they're some right-wing nutjob site!" or "they're just some libertarian out-of-touch group!"

So, I have looked it up. I spent quite a few months looking through some data, reports on the data, and the claims of both sides.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 9:17am

I base it on reports of the data.

If I post a link to an article or website, it'd be futile because you'd counter with, "they're some right-wing nutjob site!" or "they're just some libertarian out-of-touch group!"

So, I have looked it up. I spent quite a few months looking through some data, reports on the data, and the claims of both sides.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 1:03pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet has been cooling for the past decade, xfree?

I base it on reports of the data.

Which data?
Whose data?
..............................................................
Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes that increasing greenhouse gas concentrations resulting from human activity such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation are responsible for most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century. The IPCC also concludes that natural phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes produced most of the warming from pre-industrial times to 1950 and had a small cooling effect afterward.

These basic conclusions have been endorsed by more than 45 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.

Climate model projections summarized in the latest IPCC report indicate that the global surface temperature will probably rise a further 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) during the twenty-first century. The uncertainty in this estimate arises from the use of models with differing sensitivity to greenhouse gas concentrations and the use of differing estimates of future greenhouse gas emissions. Some other uncertainties include how warming and related changes will vary from region to region around the globe. Most studies focus on the period up to 2100. However, warming is expected to continue beyond 2100 even if emissions stop, because of the large heat capacity of the oceans and the long lifetime of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Increasing global temperature will cause sea levels to rise and will change the amount and pattern of precipitation, probably including expansion of subtropical deserts. The continuing retreat of glaciers, permafrost and sea ice is expected, with the Arctic region being particularly affected. Other likely effects include shrinkage of the Amazon rainforest and Boreal forests, increases in the intensity of extreme weather events, species extinctions and changes in agricultural yields.
..................................................

Considering what's at stake, I'm betting on the broad scientific consensus that global warming is happening right now.
I'm not willing to bet the future of my planet on faith based science.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 1:03pm

What's the basis for your statement that your planet has been cooling for the past decade, xfree?

I base it on reports of the data.

Which data?
Whose data?
..............................................................
Global warming is the increase in the average temperature of the Earth's near-surface air and oceans since the mid-20th century and its projected continuation. Global surface temperature increased 0.74 ± 0.18 °C (1.33 ± 0.32 °F) during the last century.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes that increasing greenhouse gas concentrations resulting from human activity such as fossil fuel burning and deforestation are responsible for most of the observed temperature increase since the middle of the 20th century. The IPCC also concludes that natural phenomena such as solar variation and volcanoes produced most of the warming from pre-industrial times to 1950 and had a small cooling effect afterward.

These basic conclusions have been endorsed by more than 45 scientific societies and academies of science, including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.

Climate model projections summarized in the latest IPCC report indicate that the global surface temperature will probably rise a further 1.1 to 6.4 °C (2.0 to 11.5 °F) during the twenty-first century. The uncertainty in this estimate arises from the use of models with differing sensitivity to greenhouse gas concentrations and the use of differing estimates of future greenhouse gas emissions. Some other uncertainties include how warming and related changes will vary from region to region around the globe. Most studies focus on the period up to 2100. However, warming is expected to continue beyond 2100 even if emissions stop, because of the large heat capacity of the oceans and the long lifetime of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

Increasing global temperature will cause sea levels to rise and will change the amount and pattern of precipitation, probably including expansion of subtropical deserts. The continuing retreat of glaciers, permafrost and sea ice is expected, with the Arctic region being particularly affected. Other likely effects include shrinkage of the Amazon rainforest and Boreal forests, increases in the intensity of extreme weather events, species extinctions and changes in agricultural yields.
..................................................

Considering what's at stake, I'm betting on the broad scientific consensus that global warming is happening right now.
I'm not willing to bet the future of my planet on faith based science.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 2:21pm

Seriously? You expect me to believe an intergovernmental panel, who couldn't possibly have an ulterior motive for their conclusions, along with scientists who have a so-called consensus (which has nothing to do with science), who have only looked at warming over the past 120 years, and who only look at two statistics-global temperatures with CO2 emissions (most of which aren't coming from humans)? Correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.

It is also true that Mars and Pluto have warmed. So what behavior by human beings are you going to blame for that? Or perhaps it has something to do with solar energy rather than carbon emissions? But no, your beloved IPCC won't think that way because it doesn't fit or defend their policy agendas. If you check out the rise in solar output with the same rise in temperature rising on earth, you'll find a more tightly-knit correlation than CO2 emissions and temperature increases.

By the way, most of the language in that quote is forecasting, which is not proof.

And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm. It's actually pretty laughable.

So, I'm not going to provide for you "my data," because you've already done exactly what I said you would do, and question whatever source(s) you want me to produce. So, let me ask you: why exactly do you trust the source you are quoting? Consensus doesn't confirm truth, it proves people agree. And as we know, many people can be very wrong in what they agree about. I don't trust your sources, you won't trust mine. This debate is futile here.

by: xfree9

06-20-2009 @ 2:21pm

Seriously? You expect me to believe an intergovernmental panel, who couldn't possibly have an ulterior motive for their conclusions, along with scientists who have a so-called consensus (which has nothing to do with science), who have only looked at warming over the past 120 years, and who only look at two statistics-global temperatures with CO2 emissions (most of which aren't coming from humans)? Correlation doesn't prove cause and effect.

It is also true that Mars and Pluto have warmed. So what behavior by human beings are you going to blame for that? Or perhaps it has something to do with solar energy rather than carbon emissions? But no, your beloved IPCC won't think that way because it doesn't fit or defend their policy agendas. If you check out the rise in solar output with the same rise in temperature rising on earth, you'll find a more tightly-knit correlation than CO2 emissions and temperature increases.

By the way, most of the language in that quote is forecasting, which is not proof.

And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm. It's actually pretty laughable.

So, I'm not going to provide for you "my data," because you've already done exactly what I said you would do, and question whatever source(s) you want me to produce. So, let me ask you: why exactly do you trust the source you are quoting? Consensus doesn't confirm truth, it proves people agree. And as we know, many people can be very wrong in what they agree about. I don't trust your sources, you won't trust mine. This debate is futile here.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 2:36pm

The question is...what kind of research are you talking about? What and who are your sources? Sources matter, they really do. If you consider all sources as equally valid, you will reap a harvest of confusion and uncertainty on this issue. How do you sort through all that?

A far more productive means of doing research is to consider the expert testimony as valid. The experts are those who study climate change as their jobs and have devoted their lives to the research. Productive research would entail studying their work and their publications in peer-reviewed journals. What does the data say if you limit your search to studying what the experts have to say? Or are you also one who thinks scientists are all a bunch of atheists whose testimony should be ignored and discounted? Does expert testimony hold any weight with you?

I agree that we need ethical and efficient use of scarce resources. Ironically, if we actually started doing that, it would mean less fossil fuel use, it would mean less pollution, it would mean we would be addressing the issues of Global Climate Change, all at the same time.

This is a new argument for me. This argument that there is a choice between stewarding scarce resources and attacking Climate Change. this idea that if we attack Climate Change, we will be ignoring other important environmental issues. The reality is, you can't do one without the other. They are all connected and intertwined.

As for Cap and Trade--it benefits small businesses because they produce far fewer greenhouse gases, and can sell their credits to larger businesses. It is also easier to change a small business over to a greener business because they have far smaller infrastructure to convert, so the money they get from the Cap and Trade deals will help finance those changes. Also, if the legislation is written correctly, there can be incentives and loans that can be added that will help small businesses do just that. It would also help spur on innovation into green technologies--new businesses that develop green technologies also presumably would be producing fewer greenhouse gases, and they can trade their credits, too.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 2:36pm

The question is...what kind of research are you talking about? What and who are your sources? Sources matter, they really do. If you consider all sources as equally valid, you will reap a harvest of confusion and uncertainty on this issue. How do you sort through all that?

A far more productive means of doing research is to consider the expert testimony as valid. The experts are those who study climate change as their jobs and have devoted their lives to the research. Productive research would entail studying their work and their publications in peer-reviewed journals. What does the data say if you limit your search to studying what the experts have to say? Or are you also one who thinks scientists are all a bunch of atheists whose testimony should be ignored and discounted? Does expert testimony hold any weight with you?

I agree that we need ethical and efficient use of scarce resources. Ironically, if we actually started doing that, it would mean less fossil fuel use, it would mean less pollution, it would mean we would be addressing the issues of Global Climate Change, all at the same time.

This is a new argument for me. This argument that there is a choice between stewarding scarce resources and attacking Climate Change. this idea that if we attack Climate Change, we will be ignoring other important environmental issues. The reality is, you can't do one without the other. They are all connected and intertwined.

As for Cap and Trade--it benefits small businesses because they produce far fewer greenhouse gases, and can sell their credits to larger businesses. It is also easier to change a small business over to a greener business because they have far smaller infrastructure to convert, so the money they get from the Cap and Trade deals will help finance those changes. Also, if the legislation is written correctly, there can be incentives and loans that can be added that will help small businesses do just that. It would also help spur on innovation into green technologies--new businesses that develop green technologies also presumably would be producing fewer greenhouse gases, and they can trade their credits, too.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 3:05pm

Yes, it is true you are no scientist. So what is laughable is that you draw all these conclusions about something you know nothing about. What is laughable is that you so easily discount the testimony of experts who know a HELL of a lot more about science than you do (I'm referring to climate scientists). THAT is what is laughable.

What I don't understand is, since you are not a scientist, why aren't you ASKING more questions rather than declaring what you think you know the truth is? Is that in itself not LAUGHABLE? If I came into your workplace and did that to you, would you not laugh? Would you not say "get out of here, you idiot?" Would not your demeanor be very different if instead came in and ASKED you questions about what you did, how, and why?

"And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm."

The only thing laughable is that comment. A single degree--you note a single degree C. Is that the same as F? This change is also average change. Average does not mean that everyone in all parts of the world will experience 1 degree C of temperature rise. It means some will have much higher than 1 degree, while others will have much lower than 1 degree. For example, the poles experience higher rises in temperature than just 1 degree C. Do you know how much ice has melted in these regions? Do you know what albedo is? do you know what a feedback loop is? Do you know why that matters?

1 degree may not seem like much to you, but if you lived in MN, you would know that 1 degree can mean the difference between snow and rain. It can be very significant in areas where water hovers around the melting/freezing point. and in the arctic, even small changes in temperature can have huge impacts. But, what do I know? I'm just a scientist. I couldn't possibly have any knowledge or understanding of this subject that is worth listening to.

I know I'm being harsher than usual, but this is really getting tiring--if you admit you are no scientist, it seems to me the most valid position is to take the time to learn about this issue from ACTUAL scientists. You need to discern the difference between valid sources and invalid sources, but you seem to insist that all sources are valid. I really did think you were more informed than that, but you are proving me otherwise.

by: squeaky

06-20-2009 @ 3:05pm

Yes, it is true you are no scientist. So what is laughable is that you draw all these conclusions about something you know nothing about. What is laughable is that you so easily discount the testimony of experts who know a HELL of a lot more about science than you do (I'm referring to climate scientists). THAT is what is laughable.

What I don't understand is, since you are not a scientist, why aren't you ASKING more questions rather than declaring what you think you know the truth is? Is that in itself not LAUGHABLE? If I came into your workplace and did that to you, would you not laugh? Would you not say "get out of here, you idiot?" Would not your demeanor be very different if instead came in and ASKED you questions about what you did, how, and why?

"And I'm not a scientist, but a single degree of change in global temperatures doesn't really seem to call for alarm."

The only thing laughable is that comment. A single degree--you note a single degree C. Is that the same as F? This change is also average change. Average does not mean that everyone in all parts of the world will experience 1 degree C of temperature rise. It means some will have much higher than 1 degree, while others will have much lower than 1 degree. For example, the poles experience higher rises in temperature than just 1 degree C. Do you know how much ice has melted in these regions? Do you know what albedo is? do you know what a feedback loop is? Do you know why that matters?

1 degree may not seem like much to you, but if you lived in MN, you would know that 1 degree can mean the difference between snow and rain. It can be very significant in areas where water hovers around the melting/freezing point. and in the arctic, even small changes in temperature can have huge impacts. But, what do I know? I'm just a scientist. I couldn't possibly have any knowledge or understanding of this subject that is worth listening to.

I know I'm being harsher than usual, but this is really getting tiring--if you admit you are no scientist, it seems to me the most valid position is to take the time to learn about this issue from ACTUAL scientists. You need to discern the difference between valid sources and invalid sources, but you seem to insist that all sources are valid. I really did think you were more informed than that, but you are proving me otherwise.

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:10pm

Sorry, xfree,

You may believe planet Earth has been cooling for the last
decade.
But you won't convince anyone else using this flimsy argument.
Do you really believe what you claim is true?

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:10pm

Sorry, xfree,

You may believe planet Earth has been cooling for the last
decade.
But you won't convince anyone else using this flimsy argument.
Do you really believe what you claim is true?

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:30pm

Ando fields another brilliant argument for ignoring the threat of global warming:
Ando's school district has experienced the most snow days in 8 years, therefore the planet is cooling.
Or at the very worst, the planet is both cooling and warming, depending on where you live.

Ando must believe in faith based science.
And what is the "knee-jerk agenda" to which he refers?

by: justintime

06-20-2009 @ 4:30pm

Ando fields another brilliant argument for ignoring the threat of global warming:
Ando's school district has experienced the most snow days in 8 years, therefore the planet is cooling.
Or at the very worst, the planet is both cooling and warming, depending on where you live.

Ando must believe in faith based science.
And what is the "knee-jerk agenda" to which he refers?

by: prk

06-21-2009 @ 10:33am

I have looked it up. The planet has been cooling and the hottest year on recored has been changed from 1998 back to 1938. Here a link, one of many.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/articl...

We all should be very skeptical of anything from the UN they want money for nothing from the me and you and remember what your mother said "Misery loves company".

by: prk

06-21-2009 @ 10:33am

I have looked it up. The planet has been cooling and the hottest year on recored has been changed from 1998 back to 1938. Here a link, one of many.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/articl...

We all should be very skeptical of anything from the UN they want money for nothing from the me and you and remember what your mother said "Misery loves company".

by: xfree9

06-21-2009 @ 5:44pm

Thanks for linking this. I've already been trampled on by the know-it-alls (see below). Somehow they believe that the IPCC contributors are unbiased and have no ulterior motive, or have no conflicts of interest. I suppose the scientists who claim global warming is caused by man are completely and utterly innocent, selfless, and only care about the planet. At least that's what they'd lead you to believe.

by: xfree9

06-21-2009 @ 5:44pm

Thanks for linking this. I've already been trampled on by the know-it-alls (see below). Somehow they believe that the IPCC contributors are unbiased and have no ulterior motive, or have no conflicts of interest. I suppose the scientists who claim global warming is caused by man are completely and utterly innocent, selfless, and only care about the planet. At least that's what they'd lead you to believe.

by: mscynthia

06-21-2009 @ 10:25pm

The big magic trick is getting them all to become transparent.

Oh no we can't do that. It would inhibbit our creativity. We might be risking national security.

Oh give me a break.
Its time to stop the economic shell game.

Real economic creativity is completely translucent and accessible to everyone.

by: mscynthia

06-21-2009 @ 10:25pm

The big magic trick is getting them all to become transparent.

Oh no we can't do that. It would inhibbit our creativity. We might be risking national security.

Oh give me a break.
Its time to stop the economic shell game.

Real economic creativity is completely translucent and accessible to everyone.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:07am

"Why do you think most scientists and alarmists [sic] have changed the phrasing to 'climate change'?"

They didn't change the phrasing. The two phrases have different, though related, meanings. "Global warming" refers to the observed increase in global atmospheric temperatures, caused primarily by an increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. "Climate change" refers to the observed and projected changes in the earth's climate systems as a result of the aforementioned increase in global atmospheric temperatures. Climate change is not in every location synonymous with average temperature warming. Climate change can involve many factors--rainfall patterns, average nighttime low temperatures, length of growing season, more variable weather patterns, including more extreme weather.Here in the midwest, for example, I've noted the following climate changes over the course of the last two decades or so: longer growing season, wetter winters (which sometimes means snowier winters), drier summers, and higher average nighttime temperatures in the summer.

Although in common usage the two terms are used more or less interchangeably, it's a good idea to keep this distinction in mind.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:07am

"Why do you think most scientists and alarmists [sic] have changed the phrasing to 'climate change'?"

They didn't change the phrasing. The two phrases have different, though related, meanings. "Global warming" refers to the observed increase in global atmospheric temperatures, caused primarily by an increase in the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. "Climate change" refers to the observed and projected changes in the earth's climate systems as a result of the aforementioned increase in global atmospheric temperatures. Climate change is not in every location synonymous with average temperature warming. Climate change can involve many factors--rainfall patterns, average nighttime low temperatures, length of growing season, more variable weather patterns, including more extreme weather.Here in the midwest, for example, I've noted the following climate changes over the course of the last two decades or so: longer growing season, wetter winters (which sometimes means snowier winters), drier summers, and higher average nighttime temperatures in the summer.

Although in common usage the two terms are used more or less interchangeably, it's a good idea to keep this distinction in mind.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:08am

I deleted an accidental double posting.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 10:08am

I deleted an accidental double posting.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:26pm

This is just another POLITICAL website -- a Canadian 'conservative' site.
Please, no more political websites.
This is a scientific discussion on the question of global climate change.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:26pm

This is just another POLITICAL website -- a Canadian 'conservative' site.
Please, no more political websites.
This is a scientific discussion on the question of global climate change.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:28pm

Don't get politics confused with science, xfree.

by: justintime

06-22-2009 @ 7:28pm

Don't get politics confused with science, xfree.

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 9:32pm

Funny thing about "conservatives" isn't it? Since both "conservative" and "conservation" have the the same Latin root, one has to wonder what it is that "conservatives" are so bent on "conserving." As essayist Scott Russell Sanders wrote, "The word 'conservative' ought to have some connection to the word 'conserve.' If you're going to call yourself conservative, you ought to be clear about what it is you want to conserve. Many conservatives, if they're honest, will say, 'I want to conserve as much money as possible in private hands, and I want to protect every opportunity to increase that private wealth, regardless of the cost to society or planet.' If we keep treating the accumulation of money by individuals and corporations as the highest good, we will continue to degrade Earth's living systems, and we will leave a sadly diminished world for future generations. That's as immoral a path as I can imagine" (http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-23-scott-r...).

D

by: BuckeyeDon

06-22-2009 @ 9:32pm

Funny thing about "conservatives" isn't it? Since both "conservative" and "conservation" have the the same Latin root, one has to wonder what it is that "conservatives" are so bent on "conserving." As essayist Scott Russell Sanders wrote, "The word 'conservative' ought to have some connection to the word 'conserve.' If you're going to call yourself conservative, you ought to be clear about what it is you want to conserve. Many conservatives, if they're honest, will say, 'I want to conserve as much money as possible in private hands, and I want to protect every opportunity to increase that private wealth, regardless of the cost to society or planet.' If we keep treating the accumulation of money by individuals and corporations as the highest good, we will continue to degrade Earth's living systems, and we will leave a sadly diminished world for future generations. That's as immoral a path as I can imagine" (http://www.grist.org/article/2009-04-23-scott-r...).

D

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 12:01pm

Here's what's going on here.

justintime doesn't know any more about climate science than any of us do. justintime reads what climate scientists have to say on the subject to learn about it. justintime cuts and pastes what they have to say on the subject to inform other people. Nothing wrong with this.

However, justintime can't engage in a discussion about the issue or refute any of the information that you provide because he can't. Not because you're necessarily right, but because justintime doesn't know enough about climate science to do so because it's incredibly complicated, and he's an amateur, like all of us. His only weapon is to accuse your sources of bias or political motivations. He has no way of picking apart the data from your sources. Expecting him to do so would be like expecting me to perform heart surgery. I just don't know enough to do it. Just like justintime doesn't know enough about climate science.

justintime feels good when he can tell other people how stoopid they are. "Me smart; him stoopid." justintime needs to learn more about complicated climate science before telling others they don't know enough.

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 12:01pm

Here's what's going on here.

justintime doesn't know any more about climate science than any of us do. justintime reads what climate scientists have to say on the subject to learn about it. justintime cuts and pastes what they have to say on the subject to inform other people. Nothing wrong with this.

However, justintime can't engage in a discussion about the issue or refute any of the information that you provide because he can't. Not because you're necessarily right, but because justintime doesn't know enough about climate science to do so because it's incredibly complicated, and he's an amateur, like all of us. His only weapon is to accuse your sources of bias or political motivations. He has no way of picking apart the data from your sources. Expecting him to do so would be like expecting me to perform heart surgery. I just don't know enough to do it. Just like justintime doesn't know enough about climate science.

justintime feels good when he can tell other people how stoopid they are. "Me smart; him stoopid." justintime needs to learn more about complicated climate science before telling others they don't know enough.

by: xfree9

06-24-2009 @ 2:15pm

I think that's a fair assessment. Maybe justintime would be very smart to heed that feedback. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, I've just not been convinced yet, and I have a family to feed, and my interests are not so broad as to study climate change and all the other things I want to study as well. I already admitted I'm not an expert, but one need not be an expert to be completely convinced something isn't quite right.

by: xfree9

06-24-2009 @ 2:15pm

I think that's a fair assessment. Maybe justintime would be very smart to heed that feedback. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, I've just not been convinced yet, and I have a family to feed, and my interests are not so broad as to study climate change and all the other things I want to study as well. I already admitted I'm not an expert, but one need not be an expert to be completely convinced something isn't quite right.

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 7:27pm

Since you've finally jumped into this discussion, tell us what your position is vis a vis global climate change.

by: justintime

06-24-2009 @ 7:27pm

Since you've finally jumped into this discussion, tell us what your position is vis a vis global climate change.

by: prk

06-26-2009 @ 2:54pm

Justintime,

Here is another example of where I get this stuff.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157...

by: prk

06-26-2009 @ 2:54pm

Justintime,

Here is another example of where I get this stuff.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124597505076157...

by: justintime

06-26-2009 @ 3:30pm

Prk,

This is another 'opinion' piece from a business journal (WSJ).
This is not a scientific opinion -- it's hearsay from a layperson.

And it doesn't mention your alleged conspiracy to take over the planet,
establish a world government and deny us our rights.

by: justintime

06-26-2009 @ 3:30pm

Prk,

This is another 'opinion' piece from a business journal (WSJ).
This is not a scientific opinion -- it's hearsay from a layperson.

And it doesn't mention your alleged conspiracy to take over the planet,
establish a world government and deny us our rights.