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Democracy is the Real Victim in Honduras' Coup

090701-honduras-coup-2On the morning of June 28, Honduran President Manuel "Mel" Zelaya was awoken suddenly as masked soldiers burst into his home. As the media has been rave to point out, still in his pajamas, the elected head of state was forced onto a plane and shipped out of the country. Later that day, the Honduran congress overwhelmingly elected its speaker Roberto Michiletti, a member of Zelaya's own Liberal Party, as the country's new president. The event was a chilling reminder that the days of military coups in Latin America are not quite over.

In the wake of Sunday's events there has ensued a battle of interpretation both within Honduras and in the international community, in which the greatest point of contention is the basis of legality for the removal of President Zelaya and whether or not it was in fact a coup.

The main reason given by the Micheletti government for the ousting of the president was his move to put forth a non-binding referendum on installing an additional urn in November's federal elections where the population would vote on whether or not to establish a National Assembly to reform the constitution. Many critics allege that Zelaya was in fact hoping to reform the constitution to allow him (and future Honduran presidents), to run for a second term. Other analysts point to the urgent need to reform the far from perfect Honduran constitution, which was written after civilians gained control of the government from the military in 1982. The Supreme Court ruled Zelaya's referendum to be illegal and the military refused to help him administer the vote. Nevertheless, Zelaya decided to go forward with the referendum and was poised to do so until the military forcibly removed him the morning that the vote was scheduled.

While there are many discussions about whether Zelaya's actions were legal, and his popularity may be indeed be demonstrably low, this does not justify the military's storming of the presidential palace and forceful removal of the president. The fact that part of the population may be happy to be rid of Zelaya is utterly beside the point; a coup is a coup and that breach of legality is one which we mustn't brush over.

The Honduran Constitution, with all of its shortcomings, does in fact provide for a legal removal of a president, democratically, by impeachment, not by a military ambush. The bottom line is that democratic institutions and the processes therein that administer transitions of power must be safeguarded to effectively govern and ensure individual rights. A long and unfortunate history of military coups in the region that kept democratic institutions perpetually weak has at least taught us this much.

Understanding the extremely complex political milieu in Honduras must take into account the frustration of the poor majority due to their exclusion from what is still a very young, tenuous, and splintered democracy. The question now becomes where does Honduras go from here? The international community has united in its response that the first step is to right the initial wrong of ousting the democratically-elected president through a coup. But Zelaya's return to the presidency will in no way put an end to the institutional weaknesses and political divisions in Honduras, nor to the political marginalization and economic inequalities that underlie this crisis. Any steps forward will certainly require the accompaniment and support of the international community, but in the end it will be up to the Honduran people to address these deeply-seated issues and determine the future of their democracy.

Ashley Morse is a program assistant with the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA), a U.S. human rights organization that promotes democracy and socio-economic justice in Latin America and the Caribbean through analysis and foreign policy proposals informed by strong partnerships with civil society counterparts in the region.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: dbjones

07-04-2009 @ 3:43pm

I concur with those who remind us that no issue is as simple as right and wrong. To respond effectively i would probably need months of study on Honduran politics, but nevertheless, i have some thoughts. The first is, democracy does not come easy. Rousseau came up with the myth that people "give" authority to leaders, but i can't think of much data to substantiate his theory. Mine is that people with power assume leadership, and that people without power follow for protection from threats, either outside the community, or from their own leaders. So democracy is not natural. Our own American myths tell us that we became a country for the common good of our citizens, but we have had to redefine citizen several times over the last 233 in order to be truly democratic (acknowledging room for debate on whether we are there yet). Back to Honduras: they broke the rule of law and did not follow through established procedures for removal of the president. Protesters have been mistreated. Sad, wrong, undemocratic. However, the military acted under authority of elected representatives. The representatives based their reason for removal in the constitution as affirmed by the judicial branch. Nobody died (to my knowledge). So in a way this is progress. Let's hope that our leaders and those of our hemispheric neighbors will work with Zelaya and the current government to mediate a positive solution which will not alienate them and reverse what progress they have made.

by: bhaack

07-04-2009 @ 5:33pm

Is it now the official position of the Christian-political left to embrace democratic authoritarians?

According to the Honduras Supreme Court Zelaya broke the law and so they ordered the military to remove him.

Is it the official position of Sojournors that Democracy means that the checks and balances on an elected official are meaningless?

Ms Morse says: "While there are many discussions about whether Zelaya's actions were legal...this does not justify the military's storming of the presidential palace and forceful removal of the president". I am curious what exactly does justify the removal of an elected official if breaking the law does not. Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Perhaps the Hondurian courts should have waited to try to remove Zelaya from office AFTER he had further consolidated his power as the now democratic-dictator Chavez has done in Venezuela. Perhaps that would be more to Ms. Morse's democratic sensitivities.

Thanks for weighting in Ms. Morse.

by: 1Grace

07-04-2009 @ 5:57pm

Happy Fourth of July everyone . God Bless, be safe .

Mick

by: JohnH54

07-04-2009 @ 8:16pm

How is it possible for you to be on the wrong side of every issue?

by: jonabark

07-07-2009 @ 12:18pm

According to your peculiar and undemocratic logic, the people with organized firepower( police and military) should make final governing choices and can depose elected officials without a just legal process. You justify this logic with name calling. The people who are leading this coup have a far more sordid history of death squad actions and torture than the moderate President. Theirs are real crimes , not arguments over constitutional process.

Your arguments are dangerous tactics that justify repression and violence against political ideas and organizations; if these tactics were turned against Republicans you would cry foul. According to your name-calling Europe and Japan are slave societies, and Social Security is a movement toward slavery. You are out of touch with the vast majority of Americans who would never tolerate your ideas being applied to their own country.

I believe you are angry because you have been misled by a dangerous ideology that has been revealed as a massive hoax.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 1:34am

Maybe you ought to consider asking yourself that question. I'm not trying to be snarky in saying that, but my concern is law and justice, not unexamined ideology.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 2:00am

Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Read the entire post again -- if you remember, the U. S. military did not remove Nixon from office.

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 12:24pm

Your comments would be a whole lot more credible if you did not take it upon yourself to go beyond the four corners of what has been written and you would address the concerns articulated in the posting. You seem to make sport of trying to impute a motive to Ashley Morse which has no basis in facts that you can ascertain. This is not the first time you have done this, and I have serious doubts about whether it will be the last.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 6:56am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office

The following quote is was written by Anabella Hedman:
"...How is that kind of intent sanctioned in our Constitution? With the immediate removal of those involved in the action as stated in Article 239 of the Constitution which reads: "No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Notice that the rule speaks about intent and that it also says immediately

by: ando

07-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Do you ever have anything positive to say?

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 11:02am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 10:57pm

Do you ever stop questioning the motives of the authors of the blog posts here?

by: jonabark

07-07-2009 @ 12:18pm

According to your peculiar and undemocratic logic, the people with organized firepower( police and military) should make final governing choices and can depose elected officials without a just legal process. You justify this logic with name calling. The people who are leading this coup have a far more sordid history of death squad actions and torture than the moderate President. Theirs are real crimes , not arguments over constitutional process.

Your arguments are dangerous tactics that justify repression and violence against political ideas and organizations; if these tactics were turned against Republicans you would cry foul. According to your name-calling Europe and Japan are slave societies, and Social Security is a movement toward slavery. You are out of touch with the vast majority of Americans who would never tolerate your ideas being applied to their own country.

I believe you are angry because you have been misled by a dangerous ideology that has been revealed as a massive hoax.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 1:18pm

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 1:02pm

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 11:18am

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 1:18pm

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 1:02pm

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: ando

07-02-2009 @ 8:05pm

I think bloggers should put their true beliefs and opinions in their writings. For example, what does Ashley Morse think of Hugo Chavez or Raul Castro? If Zelaya were a conservative, would she be as interested in criticizing the coup? The history of Latin America, at least in the last 100 years, has been Right vs. Left with little to no wiggle room for those in the middle. For those on either extreme, they always think they're in the middle and the other side is the problem.

Some of us think that both extremes are the problem.

by: FilmDoctor

07-02-2009 @ 8:26pm

The Honduran President violated the law. The police and military authorities have the option to enforce it, especially in this case where the President was obviously trying to establish another Neo-Marxist dictatorship in the region, in an illegal manner (no one is above the law). Once again, Barack Obama and his Neo-Marxist cronies distort the truth to the point perhaps of even lying. Anyone recall that verse about not bearing false witness? Socialism is a return to slavery! www.americanvision.org, www.abidingtruth.com, www.answers.org, www.equip.org, http://twitter.com/FilmDoctor, http://www.republicanassemblies.org/, http://www.chalcedon.edu/blog/blog.php.

by: BlueDeacon

07-03-2009 @ 5:05pm

You simply do not enforce the law by breaking it, nor by abrogating the principles on which the law stands. Also remember that military coups are fairly common in that part of the world -- the army doesn't like someone it gets rid of him/her. But, to you, it's all about ideology, no?

And as for "bearing false witness," you might want to take your own advice because calling anyone a "neo-Marxist crony" is nothing more than a slur, let alone a lie.

by: Minnesotan

07-03-2009 @ 11:54pm

I caution Sojourners from painting this as "saintly ,President unjustly ousted by evil military." This is a much more complex situation, and the President was trying to take over the government, like the presidents of Venezuela and Bolivia have, establishing one man, strong arm rule over the people. Please do not make this sound like it is the "rich" fighting the "poor," rather than a greedy many eager for power bending the rules and getting caught.

by: ando

07-02-2009 @ 8:05pm

I think bloggers should put their true beliefs and opinions in their writings. For example, what does Ashley Morse think of Hugo Chavez or Raul Castro? If Zelaya were a conservative, would she be as interested in criticizing the coup? The history of Latin America, at least in the last 100 years, has been Right vs. Left with little to no wiggle room for those in the middle. For those on either extreme, they always think they're in the middle and the other side is the problem.

Some of us think that both extremes are the problem.

by: FilmDoctor

07-02-2009 @ 8:26pm

The Honduran President violated the law. The police and military authorities have the option to enforce it, especially in this case where the President was obviously trying to establish another Neo-Marxist dictatorship in the region, in an illegal manner (no one is above the law). Once again, Barack Obama and his Neo-Marxist cronies distort the truth to the point perhaps of even lying. Anyone recall that verse about not bearing false witness? Socialism is a return to slavery! www.americanvision.org, www.abidingtruth.com, www.answers.org, www.equip.org, http://twitter.com/FilmDoctor, http://www.republicanassemblies.org/, http://www.chalcedon.edu/blog/blog.php.

by: BlueDeacon

07-04-2009 @ 3:02am

That's not what it's really about. Read the post again -- in fact, there is a mechanism in place to remove the president legally if need be.

by: dbjones

07-04-2009 @ 3:43pm

I concur with those who remind us that no issue is as simple as right and wrong. To respond effectively i would probably need months of study on Honduran politics, but nevertheless, i have some thoughts. The first is, democracy does not come easy. Rousseau came up with the myth that people "give" authority to leaders, but i can't think of much data to substantiate his theory. Mine is that people with power assume leadership, and that people without power follow for protection from threats, either outside the community, or from their own leaders. So democracy is not natural. Our own American myths tell us that we became a country for the common good of our citizens, but we have had to redefine citizen several times over the last 233 in order to be truly democratic (acknowledging room for debate on whether we are there yet). Back to Honduras: they broke the rule of law and did not follow through established procedures for removal of the president. Protesters have been mistreated. Sad, wrong, undemocratic. However, the military acted under authority of elected representatives. The representatives based their reason for removal in the constitution as affirmed by the judicial branch. Nobody died (to my knowledge). So in a way this is progress. Let's hope that our leaders and those of our hemispheric neighbors will work with Zelaya and the current government to mediate a positive solution which will not alienate them and reverse what progress they have made.

by: bhaack

07-04-2009 @ 5:33pm

Is it now the official position of the Christian-political left to embrace democratic authoritarians?

According to the Honduras Supreme Court Zelaya broke the law and so they ordered the military to remove him.

Is it the official position of Sojournors that Democracy means that the checks and balances on an elected official are meaningless?

Ms Morse says: "While there are many discussions about whether Zelaya's actions were legal...this does not justify the military's storming of the presidential palace and forceful removal of the president". I am curious what exactly does justify the removal of an elected official if breaking the law does not. Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Perhaps the Hondurian courts should have waited to try to remove Zelaya from office AFTER he had further consolidated his power as the now democratic-dictator Chavez has done in Venezuela. Perhaps that would be more to Ms. Morse's democratic sensitivities.

Thanks for weighting in Ms. Morse.

by: 1Grace

07-04-2009 @ 5:57pm

Happy Fourth of July everyone . God Bless, be safe .

Mick

by: JohnH54

07-04-2009 @ 8:16pm

How is it possible for you to be on the wrong side of every issue?

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 11:18am

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 1:34am

Maybe you ought to consider asking yourself that question. I'm not trying to be snarky in saying that, but my concern is law and justice, not unexamined ideology.

by: BlueDeacon

07-03-2009 @ 5:05pm

You simply do not enforce the law by breaking it, nor by abrogating the principles on which the law stands. Also remember that military coups are fairly common in that part of the world -- the army doesn't like someone it gets rid of him/her. But, to you, it's all about ideology, no?

And as for "bearing false witness," you might want to take your own advice because calling anyone a "neo-Marxist crony" is nothing more than a slur, let alone a lie.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 2:00am

Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Read the entire post again -- if you remember, the U. S. military did not remove Nixon from office.

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 12:24pm

Your comments would be a whole lot more credible if you did not take it upon yourself to go beyond the four corners of what has been written and you would address the concerns articulated in the posting. You seem to make sport of trying to impute a motive to Ashley Morse which has no basis in facts that you can ascertain. This is not the first time you have done this, and I have serious doubts about whether it will be the last.

by: ando

07-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Do you ever have anything positive to say?

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 10:57pm

Do you ever stop questioning the motives of the authors of the blog posts here?

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 6:56am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office

The following quote is was written by Anabella Hedman:
"...How is that kind of intent sanctioned in our Constitution? With the immediate removal of those involved in the action as stated in Article 239 of the Constitution which reads: "No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Notice that the rule speaks about intent and that it also says immediately

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 11:02am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: Minnesotan

07-03-2009 @ 11:54pm

I caution Sojourners from painting this as "saintly ,President unjustly ousted by evil military." This is a much more complex situation, and the President was trying to take over the government, like the presidents of Venezuela and Bolivia have, establishing one man, strong arm rule over the people. Please do not make this sound like it is the "rich" fighting the "poor," rather than a greedy many eager for power bending the rules and getting caught.

by: BlueDeacon

07-04-2009 @ 3:02am

That's not what it's really about. Read the post again -- in fact, there is a mechanism in place to remove the president legally if need be.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: ando

07-02-2009 @ 8:05pm

I think bloggers should put their true beliefs and opinions in their writings. For example, what does Ashley Morse think of Hugo Chavez or Raul Castro? If Zelaya were a conservative, would she be as interested in criticizing the coup? The history of Latin America, at least in the last 100 years, has been Right vs. Left with little to no wiggle room for those in the middle. For those on either extreme, they always think they're in the middle and the other side is the problem.

Some of us think that both extremes are the problem.

by: ando

07-02-2009 @ 8:05pm

I think bloggers should put their true beliefs and opinions in their writings. For example, what does Ashley Morse think of Hugo Chavez or Raul Castro? If Zelaya were a conservative, would she be as interested in criticizing the coup? The history of Latin America, at least in the last 100 years, has been Right vs. Left with little to no wiggle room for those in the middle. For those on either extreme, they always think they're in the middle and the other side is the problem.

Some of us think that both extremes are the problem.

by: FilmDoctor

07-02-2009 @ 8:26pm

The Honduran President violated the law. The police and military authorities have the option to enforce it, especially in this case where the President was obviously trying to establish another Neo-Marxist dictatorship in the region, in an illegal manner (no one is above the law). Once again, Barack Obama and his Neo-Marxist cronies distort the truth to the point perhaps of even lying. Anyone recall that verse about not bearing false witness? Socialism is a return to slavery! www.americanvision.org, www.abidingtruth.com, www.answers.org, www.equip.org, http://twitter.com/FilmDoctor, http://www.republicanassemblies.org/, http://www.chalcedon.edu/blog/blog.php.

by: FilmDoctor

07-02-2009 @ 8:26pm

The Honduran President violated the law. The police and military authorities have the option to enforce it, especially in this case where the President was obviously trying to establish another Neo-Marxist dictatorship in the region, in an illegal manner (no one is above the law). Once again, Barack Obama and his Neo-Marxist cronies distort the truth to the point perhaps of even lying. Anyone recall that verse about not bearing false witness? Socialism is a return to slavery! www.americanvision.org, www.abidingtruth.com, www.answers.org, www.equip.org, http://twitter.com/FilmDoctor, http://www.republicanassemblies.org/, http://www.chalcedon.edu/blog/blog.php.

by: BlueDeacon

07-03-2009 @ 5:05pm

You simply do not enforce the law by breaking it, nor by abrogating the principles on which the law stands. Also remember that military coups are fairly common in that part of the world -- the army doesn't like someone it gets rid of him/her. But, to you, it's all about ideology, no?

And as for "bearing false witness," you might want to take your own advice because calling anyone a "neo-Marxist crony" is nothing more than a slur, let alone a lie.

by: BlueDeacon

07-03-2009 @ 5:05pm

You simply do not enforce the law by breaking it, nor by abrogating the principles on which the law stands. Also remember that military coups are fairly common in that part of the world -- the army doesn't like someone it gets rid of him/her. But, to you, it's all about ideology, no?

And as for "bearing false witness," you might want to take your own advice because calling anyone a "neo-Marxist crony" is nothing more than a slur, let alone a lie.

by: Minnesotan

07-03-2009 @ 11:54pm

I caution Sojourners from painting this as "saintly ,President unjustly ousted by evil military." This is a much more complex situation, and the President was trying to take over the government, like the presidents of Venezuela and Bolivia have, establishing one man, strong arm rule over the people. Please do not make this sound like it is the "rich" fighting the "poor," rather than a greedy many eager for power bending the rules and getting caught.

by: Minnesotan

07-03-2009 @ 11:54pm

I caution Sojourners from painting this as "saintly ,President unjustly ousted by evil military." This is a much more complex situation, and the President was trying to take over the government, like the presidents of Venezuela and Bolivia have, establishing one man, strong arm rule over the people. Please do not make this sound like it is the "rich" fighting the "poor," rather than a greedy many eager for power bending the rules and getting caught.

by: BlueDeacon

07-04-2009 @ 3:02am

That's not what it's really about. Read the post again -- in fact, there is a mechanism in place to remove the president legally if need be.

by: BlueDeacon

07-04-2009 @ 3:02am

That's not what it's really about. Read the post again -- in fact, there is a mechanism in place to remove the president legally if need be.

by: dbjones

07-04-2009 @ 3:43pm

I concur with those who remind us that no issue is as simple as right and wrong. To respond effectively i would probably need months of study on Honduran politics, but nevertheless, i have some thoughts. The first is, democracy does not come easy. Rousseau came up with the myth that people "give" authority to leaders, but i can't think of much data to substantiate his theory. Mine is that people with power assume leadership, and that people without power follow for protection from threats, either outside the community, or from their own leaders. So democracy is not natural. Our own American myths tell us that we became a country for the common good of our citizens, but we have had to redefine citizen several times over the last 233 in order to be truly democratic (acknowledging room for debate on whether we are there yet). Back to Honduras: they broke the rule of law and did not follow through established procedures for removal of the president. Protesters have been mistreated. Sad, wrong, undemocratic. However, the military acted under authority of elected representatives. The representatives based their reason for removal in the constitution as affirmed by the judicial branch. Nobody died (to my knowledge). So in a way this is progress. Let's hope that our leaders and those of our hemispheric neighbors will work with Zelaya and the current government to mediate a positive solution which will not alienate them and reverse what progress they have made.

by: dbjones

07-04-2009 @ 3:43pm

I concur with those who remind us that no issue is as simple as right and wrong. To respond effectively i would probably need months of study on Honduran politics, but nevertheless, i have some thoughts. The first is, democracy does not come easy. Rousseau came up with the myth that people "give" authority to leaders, but i can't think of much data to substantiate his theory. Mine is that people with power assume leadership, and that people without power follow for protection from threats, either outside the community, or from their own leaders. So democracy is not natural. Our own American myths tell us that we became a country for the common good of our citizens, but we have had to redefine citizen several times over the last 233 in order to be truly democratic (acknowledging room for debate on whether we are there yet). Back to Honduras: they broke the rule of law and did not follow through established procedures for removal of the president. Protesters have been mistreated. Sad, wrong, undemocratic. However, the military acted under authority of elected representatives. The representatives based their reason for removal in the constitution as affirmed by the judicial branch. Nobody died (to my knowledge). So in a way this is progress. Let's hope that our leaders and those of our hemispheric neighbors will work with Zelaya and the current government to mediate a positive solution which will not alienate them and reverse what progress they have made.

by: bhaack

07-04-2009 @ 5:33pm

Is it now the official position of the Christian-political left to embrace democratic authoritarians?

According to the Honduras Supreme Court Zelaya broke the law and so they ordered the military to remove him.

Is it the official position of Sojournors that Democracy means that the checks and balances on an elected official are meaningless?

Ms Morse says: "While there are many discussions about whether Zelaya's actions were legal...this does not justify the military's storming of the presidential palace and forceful removal of the president". I am curious what exactly does justify the removal of an elected official if breaking the law does not. Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Perhaps the Hondurian courts should have waited to try to remove Zelaya from office AFTER he had further consolidated his power as the now democratic-dictator Chavez has done in Venezuela. Perhaps that would be more to Ms. Morse's democratic sensitivities.

Thanks for weighting in Ms. Morse.

by: bhaack

07-04-2009 @ 5:33pm

Is it now the official position of the Christian-political left to embrace democratic authoritarians?

According to the Honduras Supreme Court Zelaya broke the law and so they ordered the military to remove him.

Is it the official position of Sojournors that Democracy means that the checks and balances on an elected official are meaningless?

Ms Morse says: "While there are many discussions about whether Zelaya's actions were legal...this does not justify the military's storming of the presidential palace and forceful removal of the president". I am curious what exactly does justify the removal of an elected official if breaking the law does not. Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Perhaps the Hondurian courts should have waited to try to remove Zelaya from office AFTER he had further consolidated his power as the now democratic-dictator Chavez has done in Venezuela. Perhaps that would be more to Ms. Morse's democratic sensitivities.

Thanks for weighting in Ms. Morse.

by: 1Grace

07-04-2009 @ 5:57pm

Happy Fourth of July everyone . God Bless, be safe .

Mick

by: 1Grace

07-04-2009 @ 5:57pm

Happy Fourth of July everyone . God Bless, be safe .

Mick

by: JohnH54

07-04-2009 @ 8:16pm

How is it possible for you to be on the wrong side of every issue?

by: JohnH54

07-04-2009 @ 8:16pm

How is it possible for you to be on the wrong side of every issue?

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 1:34am

Maybe you ought to consider asking yourself that question. I'm not trying to be snarky in saying that, but my concern is law and justice, not unexamined ideology.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 1:34am

Maybe you ought to consider asking yourself that question. I'm not trying to be snarky in saying that, but my concern is law and justice, not unexamined ideology.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 2:00am

Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Read the entire post again -- if you remember, the U. S. military did not remove Nixon from office.

by: BlueDeacon

07-05-2009 @ 2:00am

Does Ms. Morse also hold the position that the proceedings to remove Nixon from office where undemocratic and illegal?

Read the entire post again -- if you remember, the U. S. military did not remove Nixon from office.

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 12:24pm

Your comments would be a whole lot more credible if you did not take it upon yourself to go beyond the four corners of what has been written and you would address the concerns articulated in the posting. You seem to make sport of trying to impute a motive to Ashley Morse which has no basis in facts that you can ascertain. This is not the first time you have done this, and I have serious doubts about whether it will be the last.

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 12:24pm

Your comments would be a whole lot more credible if you did not take it upon yourself to go beyond the four corners of what has been written and you would address the concerns articulated in the posting. You seem to make sport of trying to impute a motive to Ashley Morse which has no basis in facts that you can ascertain. This is not the first time you have done this, and I have serious doubts about whether it will be the last.

by: ando

07-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Do you ever have anything positive to say?

by: ando

07-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Do you ever have anything positive to say?

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 10:57pm

Do you ever stop questioning the motives of the authors of the blog posts here?

by: JamesM

07-05-2009 @ 10:57pm

Do you ever stop questioning the motives of the authors of the blog posts here?

by: jonabark

07-07-2009 @ 12:18pm

According to your peculiar and undemocratic logic, the people with organized firepower( police and military) should make final governing choices and can depose elected officials without a just legal process. You justify this logic with name calling. The people who are leading this coup have a far more sordid history of death squad actions and torture than the moderate President. Theirs are real crimes , not arguments over constitutional process.

Your arguments are dangerous tactics that justify repression and violence against political ideas and organizations; if these tactics were turned against Republicans you would cry foul. According to your name-calling Europe and Japan are slave societies, and Social Security is a movement toward slavery. You are out of touch with the vast majority of Americans who would never tolerate your ideas being applied to their own country.

I believe you are angry because you have been misled by a dangerous ideology that has been revealed as a massive hoax.

by: jonabark

07-07-2009 @ 12:18pm

According to your peculiar and undemocratic logic, the people with organized firepower( police and military) should make final governing choices and can depose elected officials without a just legal process. You justify this logic with name calling. The people who are leading this coup have a far more sordid history of death squad actions and torture than the moderate President. Theirs are real crimes , not arguments over constitutional process.

Your arguments are dangerous tactics that justify repression and violence against political ideas and organizations; if these tactics were turned against Republicans you would cry foul. According to your name-calling Europe and Japan are slave societies, and Social Security is a movement toward slavery. You are out of touch with the vast majority of Americans who would never tolerate your ideas being applied to their own country.

I believe you are angry because you have been misled by a dangerous ideology that has been revealed as a massive hoax.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 6:56am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office

The following quote is was written by Anabella Hedman:
"...How is that kind of intent sanctioned in our Constitution? With the immediate removal of those involved in the action as stated in Article 239 of the Constitution which reads: "No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Notice that the rule speaks about intent and that it also says immediately

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 6:56am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office

The following quote is was written by Anabella Hedman:
"...How is that kind of intent sanctioned in our Constitution? With the immediate removal of those involved in the action as stated in Article 239 of the Constitution which reads: "No citizen that has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years." Notice that the rule speaks about intent and that it also says immediately

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 11:02am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 11:02am

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 11:18am

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 11:18am

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 1:02pm

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: BlueDeacon

07-10-2009 @ 1:02pm

The Honduran government did remove him legally. The military was responding to a court order. It was not a coup.
The Honduran constitution allows for the immediate removal of the president for attempting to extend his term in office.

But not BAMN.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 1:18pm

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.

by: redhen689

07-10-2009 @ 1:18pm

dbjones,
Micheletti was next in line for the presidency. He was put in that position by constitutional law and has the backing of the congress and the supreme court. He knows his time in this position will only last until the swearing in of the new president after the November elections. btw, He is from the same political party as Zelaya. (The interesting thing is that even Zelaya's political party wanted him out.)
I have attempted to reply here 3 times, but the posts keep disappearing. Either there is a glitch, or I'm being moderated. I'm hoping that all 3 posts don't show up now, because that would be annoying.