The Death Penalty Denies the Gospel

Leviticus 24:17 'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------think about it

For those of you who have some questions about the death penalty, a read of a book entitled Picking Cotton will have an impact. It did for me.

What do you say about the counter-argument of well, the death penalty, when properly handed down, actually "forces" the offender to give thought to the hereafter, and therefore may actually bring the offender to Christ?

Such a counter-argument is not at all specific to the existing death-penalty. "All have sinned". So this argument could as easily insist that the death-penalty be imposed on all non-Christians -- to leverage them to bring them to Christ. I don't like the implications.

" when properly handed down"

Here is the rub. Humans (unlike God) make mistakes. And innocent people have been executed. This is murder as defined by the Ten Commandments.

When even just one innocent person gets killed by capital punishment, then that makes it wrong.

"Would you concede that if it were undeniably provable (like captured on videotape or if the murderer admits it) that it should be legal in those instances?"

I don't think that such "undeniably proveable" evidence exists. Videotapes can be fuzzy or else can be altered. As for confessions, there are instances when police tactics end up coming up with false confessions. Or sometimes a person will falsely confess to a murder because either of witness intimidation or else in an attempt to save the real murderer.

Because we are human, there are always human failings. So it's inevitable that innocent people will be killed. And this is wrong; it's playing God when only God can be God.

Where in the NT?

I really do not see a Bibical clear cut answer to the death penalty . I was for it when I was younger , but seeing some strange court actions , learning about the racial and monetary discrepancies of death penalty verdicts . The rich usually do not get executed. Its hard for me to consider it a deterrent. If it really ever was . But I would say stopping a murderer from murdering again is something any society needs to enforcing strongly. The consideration of executing an innocent man is quite grim to consider. But I find the fact allowing a murderer to murder again , either in prison or out is quite wrong also . Blaming all this on our legal system appears to be status quo,. I am usually more committed to an issue as grave as this , but I really don't know . I would say side with life .

But am willing to hear both sides . But answers where my Bible tells me I am right and your wrong I find lacking .

What do you say about the counter-argument of well, the death penalty, when properly handed down, actually "forces" the offender to give thought to the hereafter, and therefore may actually bring the offender to Christ?

"kill" does not mean all killing. The same Torah that said 'thou shalt not kill' also listed laws punishable by death.

(btw, I'm not for capital punishment, either).

How exactly does the death penalty "deny" the gospel? Last I checked, God himself gave Noah permission to put to death those who had taken human life on the basis that the life that was taken was made in God's image. Maybe Jesus' death and resurrection negates that, but how does it do so?

I don't think you read my post. I clearly said that this Commandment meant that "thou shalt not do murder." I usually use the King James Bible for my citations and the Commandment was translated as "Thou shalt not kill." However, what is meant is "thou shalt not do murder."

However, because we are human and make human mistakes: when capital punishment is used, there is always events when innocent people are executed. And that is murder and against the Ten Commandments.

Many Christian denominations, including the Episcopal church and the Roman Catholic church oppose the death penalty for various reasons. I agree with the Episcopal church which is my own denomination.

"Would you concede that if it were undeniably provable (like captured on videotape or if the murderer admits it) that it should be legal in those instances?"

I don't think that such "undeniably proveable" evidence exists. Videotapes can be fuzzy or else can be altered. As for confessions, there are instances when police tactics end up coming up with false confessions. Or sometimes a person will falsely confess to a murder because either of witness intimidation or else in an attempt to save the real murderer.

Because we are human, there are always human failings. So it's inevitable that innocent people will be killed. And this is wrong; it's playing God when only God can be God.

Where in the NT?

Once again, you ignore the actual scripture, which distinguishes between intentional and accidental killings. (check out Exodus 21 again) Accidents, including accidents by government, are hardly a new development. I won't pretend that wrongful executions have never happened, but it's silly to pretend that they weren't a possibility at the time of Exodus either. The state is authorized -- even compelled if you want to get really literal about it -- to apply the death penalty in certain cases.

I read your post. My objection remains. You're cherry-picking scripture. Executions are not murder.

LV

Let me run this by you. You are an innocent person doing your job. The police come to arrest you and you are charged and convicted of murder, even though you were not guilty. You are sentenced to death and executed.

You truly believe that Scripture condones this? I don't think so. The Catholic and Episcopal churches have it right.

Wave, I'm with you. But in the OT, do you think God would declare something to be a law, and expect the Israelites to follow and enforce it, if it were impossible to know if somebody killed another?

Even Al Franken, who is opposed to the death penalty, believes murderers should be executed. His reason for opposing the death penalty is for the foul-ups in our legal system... which means he errs on the side of "life," so to speak. I can empathize with that.

xfree9, I'm confused by what you are saying. Are you saying that making mistakes and executing innocent people is some sort of "price" that Scripture would accept in order that guilty people would be executed?

If Al Franken believes that murderers should be executed, then how can it be that he is opposed to the death penalty? Is he of the belief that in some time, some place, some era, that our legal system can somehow eventually come up with the "perfect proof" against murderers -- and thus they can then go ahead and execute them without fear that innocent people will be caught up in this web of executions?

This is an illusion that many pro-death-penalty people have -- that someday, human beings will possess a God-like ability to absolutely determine that a person is guilty -- and thus be able to assume a God-like role in judging them worthy to be able to take this person's life. It's an illusion that can only end up in the murders of innocent people.

Why do people feel so driven to end another person's life, even if it means that a few innocent people get caught in the wake of all of these executions? It's not going to bring back the victim and will only result in more innocent victims. There are other ways for murderers to be separated from society and punished for their crimes rather than taking yet another life.

What I'm saying is that the Torah is clearly pro-death penalty. Regardless what Scripture would have us do today, at some point in the past, God permitted and commanded life to be taken when somebody was found to have murdered another human being. I find nothing wrong with this; in fact, it comports with God's command to Noah that God values human life so much, that when another human takes that life, the murderer is to be removed from the earth. So, as to the argument that innocent people will be accidentally executed due to human error, I agree with you; there is that possibility, and it is not just a theoretical, it is a very real possibility. So under that possibility, why would God condone the death penalty at all or at any point in history? Surely God is not willing for innocent people to be sacrificed on occasion. I don't have the answers, but that was my point.

As for Al Franken, what I was pointing out was that he is pro-death with regards to murderers, but anti-death penalty because of the "accidental innocent" scenario. That's his reason for not being pro-death penalty.

I'm not sure it's illusory to believe we could know that somebody committed murder. In the omniscient sort of way, the answer is of course, "No," we weren't there, the evidence isn't 100%, etc etc, so therefore we cannot play God. However, we are charged by God with the task to bring about justice, and in order to do so, we have to make judgments. While death is obviously "undo-able," you could make the argument for any sort of punishment, such as life imprisonment, fines, etc. Why make any judgments at all if we're simply human and innocents will be charged guilty?

A further problem with the death penalty is that it does not necessarily serve justice. Even if OJ Simpson were executed after being found guilty, how does that serve justice? How were the victims satisfied and reconciled? They wouldn't have been. We may think that if the murderer were gone, we'd all be better off, but that's not the case. Anybody who knows anything about forgiveness knows that to be true. Repayment in accordance with vengeance isn't ours, it is God's prerogative-and it's a good thing God is gracious!

Leviticus 24:17 'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------think about it

xfree9, I'm confused by what you are saying. Are you saying that making mistakes and executing innocent people is some sort of "price" that Scripture would accept in order that guilty people would be executed?

If Al Franken believes that murderers should be executed, then how can it be that he is opposed to the death penalty? Is he of the belief that in some time, some place, some era, that our legal system can somehow eventually come up with the "perfect proof" against murderers -- and thus they can then go ahead and execute them without fear that innocent people will be caught up in this web of executions?

This is an illusion that many pro-death-penalty people have -- that someday, human beings will possess a God-like ability to absolutely determine that a person is guilty -- and thus be able to assume a God-like role in judging them worthy to be able to take this person's life. It's an illusion that can only end up in the murders of innocent people.

Why do people feel so driven to end another person's life, even if it means that a few innocent people get caught in the wake of all of these executions? It's not going to bring back the victim and will only result in more innocent victims. There are other ways for murderers to be separated from society and punished for their crimes rather than taking yet another life.

My dear, sweet, naive child,

I cannot make you read what you do not wish to read. There are numerous passages in scripture that contemplate, or even command, the application of the death penalty. The standards of proof are high to be sure, mainly to prevent false convictions, but it's clearly allowed in scripture, and nobody is as aware of the fallibility of man as God is.

You may recall another incident in the OT, this is with Abraham before there was any Jewish law. God had decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and Abraham pleaded with God to back down. Abraham asked God to spare the cities if 50 righteous people could be found, and God agreed, and then Abraham talked God down so that if just ten righteous people could be found the cities would be spared.

The moral of the story -- and it predates the Jewish law itself -- is that in this fallen world innocent, decent people will die before their time, and there's only so much we can do to prevent that.

I don't ask you to support this. I understand your opposition. I wouldn't say that the Bible commands the use of the death penalty today. But I don't see how you can say that the Bible prohibits the use of the death penalty when it clearly allowed the Israelites to apply it to murder and other heinous crimes. This is a matter of discretion.

LV