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An Ever-new Narrative of Good News

My friend Bob Carlton sent me this link to a Guardian piece by Madeleine Bunting, "Market dogma is exposed as myth. Where is the new vision to unite us? (With religion outmoded and society fragmented, it will require a different kind of moral narrative to inspire change)."

The twentieth century presented us, she suggests, with two types of narratives - collective and individualist. The grand collective narratives were primarily economic: Market forces shape our lives and promise a better future. But once-promising economic narratives, whether in their communist, socialist, or capitalist forms, she suggests, have lost their luster -- tarnished by a series of events including the current economic crisis and the longstanding environmental crisis.

Individualist narratives, she says, are still popular, but they are ultimately unhelpful. She quotes documentary film-maker Adam Curtis:

What we have is a cacophony of individual narratives, everyone wants to be the author of their own lives, no one wants to be relegated to a part in a bigger story; everyone wants to give their opinion, no one wants to listen. It's enchanting, it's liberating, but ultimately it's disempowering because you need a collective, not individual, narrative to achieve change.

Curtis' analysis reminds me of a conversation I had with philosopher/theologian Pete Rollins in a Belfast pub a couple weeks ago. We were talking about a shift we were both sensing in the postmodern philosophical community -- a reappraisal of the importance of big stories or collective narratives. (I won't call them "metanarratives" because I think that term is largely, though perhaps unconsciously, associated with the narratives of empire ... which include the dominant Christian narrative, sadly ... which is a subject I grapple with at length in my upcoming book, A New Kind of Christianity.)

Bunting explains that for Curtis, collective narratives

... shape our understanding of the world and of who we are, and how we make sense and order experience. Powerful, grand narratives legitimize power, win our allegiance, and frame our private understandings of how to measure value and create meaning. They also structure time

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by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 7:17pm

Maybe like me he fears the unintended consquences of progressive policy. The raising of the minimum wage that causes someone to lose their job. The 40 hour work week that causes someone not to get enough hours of work. Or the mandating of what is covered on my health insurance that causes me to pay more.

And for irony the more the pols want to control the more lobbying is done, GE and Simens are now lobbying for money from the Global Warming fraud. NPR said this morning that lobbying money is at an all time record.

by: Hannity2

07-20-2009 @ 1:52pm

Mr McLaren,

The things that you are observing are happening. But it looks alot more like the groundwork of a one world religion, one world government, and one world currency than it does the kingdom of God.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:28pm

There will be such -- when Jesus returns.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:30pm

Does anyone else find it ironic that, in arguing for the eminence of a collective narrative, McLaren cites three of his own books?

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:34pm

True, but even the most ardent theonomist wouldn't argue for bringing about a one world religion in hopes of harkening Christ's return. Collectivism in the name of Christ is virtuous, but that does not mean collectivism is virtuous in and of itself.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 2:46pm

Henry David Thoreau famously remarked, "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life." Thoreau feared a single, unarmed man approaching him with such a passion in his heart. Too many people now embrace the coercive apparatus of the modern state professing the same design.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:51pm

Irrelevant, because most theonomists (who are generally Calvinists who reject dispensationalism) don't believe in one-world religion, government etc. in this life. The primary purpose of the church is to foreshadow His return, to live by Kingdom principles until that happens -- which will put it at odds with the world.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:56pm

I wonder why that is -- perhaps because the person being approached fears that better life because he/she wants to hold on to what he/she already has. And here's the irony: Many of those same people who argue against the "modern state" had no qualms about using the power of the state to maintain their own superior class status, making that argument hypocritical.

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:53pm

Do you think that is why Thoreau said what he did? Was he simply trying to hold on to what he had?

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:57pm

Right. Voluntarily choosing to live collectively with other people would be ideal. I can think of few things more undesirable than being forced to live collectively with other people who didn't want to do so. Granted, God calls us as Christians to do many things that don't come naturally or that are uncomfortable for us, but he doesn't tell us to force others to do those things.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 4:21pm

I would have to hear the "rest of the story," so I don't know for sure. As it is, given what I know about Thoreau I can assume that his words were taken out of context.

by: DITE

07-20-2009 @ 5:19pm

Um, yes.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 5:50pm

If my comment is irrelevant, then yours is for the same reason. You can't
possibly be arguing that we should come under one world religion in an
attempt to foreshadow the return of Christ, so I'm not sure what your point
was in response to Hannity guy.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 5:55pm

His point was about "socialism" -- which is not only inaccurate but an
outright slur.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 7:08pm

Can Sojo do a post on when and how to use quotation marks?

by: Hannity2

07-20-2009 @ 1:52pm

Mr McLaren,

The things that you are observing are happening. But it looks alot more like the groundwork of a one world religion, one world government, and one world currency than it does the kingdom of God.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:28pm

There will be such -- when Jesus returns.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:30pm

Does anyone else find it ironic that, in arguing for the eminence of a collective narrative, McLaren cites three of his own books?

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:34pm

True, but even the most ardent theonomist wouldn't argue for bringing about a one world religion in hopes of harkening Christ's return. Collectivism in the name of Christ is virtuous, but that does not mean collectivism is virtuous in and of itself.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 2:46pm

Henry David Thoreau famously remarked, "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life." Thoreau feared a single, unarmed man approaching him with such a passion in his heart. Too many people now embrace the coercive apparatus of the modern state professing the same design.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:51pm

Irrelevant, because most theonomists (who are generally Calvinists who reject dispensationalism) don't believe in one-world religion, government etc. in this life. The primary purpose of the church is to foreshadow His return, to live by Kingdom principles until that happens -- which will put it at odds with the world.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:56pm

I wonder why that is -- perhaps because the person being approached fears that better life because he/she wants to hold on to what he/she already has. And here's the irony: Many of those same people who argue against the "modern state" had no qualms about using the power of the state to maintain their own superior class status, making that argument hypocritical.

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:53pm

Do you think that is why Thoreau said what he did? Was he simply trying to hold on to what he had?

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:57pm

Right. Voluntarily choosing to live collectively with other people would be ideal. I can think of few things more undesirable than being forced to live collectively with other people who didn't want to do so. Granted, God calls us as Christians to do many things that don't come naturally or that are uncomfortable for us, but he doesn't tell us to force others to do those things.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 4:21pm

I would have to hear the "rest of the story," so I don't know for sure. As it is, given what I know about Thoreau I can assume that his words were taken out of context.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: DITE

07-20-2009 @ 5:19pm

Um, yes.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 5:50pm

If my comment is irrelevant, then yours is for the same reason. You can't
possibly be arguing that we should come under one world religion in an
attempt to foreshadow the return of Christ, so I'm not sure what your point
was in response to Hannity guy.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 5:55pm

His point was about "socialism" -- which is not only inaccurate but an
outright slur.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 7:08pm

Can Sojo do a post on when and how to use quotation marks?

by: carlcopas

07-21-2009 @ 12:55am

prk,

could you also address fears of the unintended consequences of unfettered capitalism? E.g., boom-and-bust cycles that cause enormous social damage; rampant materialism and consumerism; waste; a shrinking middle class; ecological damage; the elderly who have to eat catfood because you don't want to "pay more" for a safety net that would allow them to live out their lives in simple dignity, etc. etc.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:25pm

You'll see that many of the same people decrying the influence of lobbyists are also the people who are advocating that the federal government get in the business of dispensing more goodies and regulating more of society. As long as there are goodies to be gotten and oxes being gored there will be lobbyists.

by: TedVothJr

07-21-2009 @ 1:21am

Is it coincidental that man-made disaster on an apocalyptic scale, environmental, economic, political threatens us when some of the People are back in the Land?
Some of Israel are back in Palestine, more as the last gasp, let us hope, of European colonial expansion, with the usual disastrous results for the indigenous population, than as a 'move of God', as we Pentecostals might say.

Look up and rejoice.

Escapist? No, the LORD has work for his Church to do till he gets back, showing the world what his Kingdom's like, preaching the Gospel, using words when necessary.

<3 in Him

Marana, Tha!

by: SisterMarie

07-21-2009 @ 6:03pm

Brother McLaren,
What were you doing in a pub? I hope you were not drinking beer.

"Look not upon the wine when it is red..."

"Wine is a mocker..."

by: prk

07-21-2009 @ 10:32pm

What?

Where are the elderly eating cat food? In the US most of the wealth is held by those over 65. My parents are a prime example, both over 75 with a pension and their house is paid for, no kids at home. They are having a great time waiting for the next Braves game to start on their big screen.

As for all the other things you say I will always think that markets are far more superior than are the pols. Who should decide what is rampant materialism, consumerism and for waste if the market sets a high price for waiste we will have less of it, but if it is cheap we will have more of it. Why is this a problem?

And the shrinking middle class, check that out more closely, look hard at the numbers, household vs. individual. Also look at who the numbers in the household has been going. i.e. a mom and dad working and living in the same household will have more income than a single mom.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:22pm

I've often heard of "the elderly eating cat food" example of how bad poverty is in the U.S. I've never actually known anyone to eat cat food because they couldn't afford other food. There's plenty of human food to eat without resorting to pet food. Rice, beans, potatoes, and frozen and canned vegetables are pretty cheap.

If I knew someone in my community who was surviving on cat food the last thing I would do would be to complain that the federal government isn't helping them. I'd give them some human food to eat.

by: carlcopas

07-21-2009 @ 12:55am

prk,

could you also address fears of the unintended consequences of unfettered capitalism? E.g., boom-and-bust cycles that cause enormous social damage; rampant materialism and consumerism; waste; a shrinking middle class; ecological damage; the elderly who have to eat catfood because you don't want to "pay more" for a safety net that would allow them to live out their lives in simple dignity, etc. etc.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:25pm

You'll see that many of the same people decrying the influence of lobbyists are also the people who are advocating that the federal government get in the business of dispensing more goodies and regulating more of society. As long as there are goodies to be gotten and oxes being gored there will be lobbyists.

by: TedVothJr

07-21-2009 @ 1:21am

Is it coincidental that man-made disaster on an apocalyptic scale, environmental, economic, political threatens us when some of the People are back in the Land?
Some of Israel are back in Palestine, more as the last gasp, let us hope, of European colonial expansion, with the usual disastrous results for the indigenous population, than as a 'move of God', as we Pentecostals might say.

Look up and rejoice.

Escapist? No, the LORD has work for his Church to do till he gets back, showing the world what his Kingdom's like, preaching the Gospel, using words when necessary.

<3 in Him

Marana, Tha!

by: SisterMarie

07-21-2009 @ 6:03pm

Brother McLaren,
What were you doing in a pub? I hope you were not drinking beer.

"Look not upon the wine when it is red..."

"Wine is a mocker..."

by: prk

07-21-2009 @ 10:32pm

What?

Where are the elderly eating cat food? In the US most of the wealth is held by those over 65. My parents are a prime example, both over 75 with a pension and their house is paid for, no kids at home. They are having a great time waiting for the next Braves game to start on their big screen.

As for all the other things you say I will always think that markets are far more superior than are the pols. Who should decide what is rampant materialism, consumerism and for waste if the market sets a high price for waiste we will have less of it, but if it is cheap we will have more of it. Why is this a problem?

And the shrinking middle class, check that out more closely, look hard at the numbers, household vs. individual. Also look at who the numbers in the household has been going. i.e. a mom and dad working and living in the same household will have more income than a single mom.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:22pm

I've often heard of "the elderly eating cat food" example of how bad poverty is in the U.S. I've never actually known anyone to eat cat food because they couldn't afford other food. There's plenty of human food to eat without resorting to pet food. Rice, beans, potatoes, and frozen and canned vegetables are pretty cheap.

If I knew someone in my community who was surviving on cat food the last thing I would do would be to complain that the federal government isn't helping them. I'd give them some human food to eat.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 7:17pm

Maybe like me he fears the unintended consquences of progressive policy. The raising of the minimum wage that causes someone to lose their job. The 40 hour work week that causes someone not to get enough hours of work. Or the mandating of what is covered on my health insurance that causes me to pay more.

And for irony the more the pols want to control the more lobbying is done, GE and Simens are now lobbying for money from the Global Warming fraud. NPR said this morning that lobbying money is at an all time record.

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by: Hannity2

07-20-2009 @ 1:52pm

Mr McLaren,

The things that you are observing are happening. But it looks alot more like the groundwork of a one world religion, one world government, and one world currency than it does the kingdom of God.

by: Hannity2

07-20-2009 @ 1:52pm

Mr McLaren,

The things that you are observing are happening. But it looks alot more like the groundwork of a one world religion, one world government, and one world currency than it does the kingdom of God.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:28pm

There will be such -- when Jesus returns.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:28pm

There will be such -- when Jesus returns.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:30pm

Does anyone else find it ironic that, in arguing for the eminence of a collective narrative, McLaren cites three of his own books?

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:30pm

Does anyone else find it ironic that, in arguing for the eminence of a collective narrative, McLaren cites three of his own books?

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:34pm

True, but even the most ardent theonomist wouldn't argue for bringing about a one world religion in hopes of harkening Christ's return. Collectivism in the name of Christ is virtuous, but that does not mean collectivism is virtuous in and of itself.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 2:34pm

True, but even the most ardent theonomist wouldn't argue for bringing about a one world religion in hopes of harkening Christ's return. Collectivism in the name of Christ is virtuous, but that does not mean collectivism is virtuous in and of itself.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 2:46pm

Henry David Thoreau famously remarked, "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life." Thoreau feared a single, unarmed man approaching him with such a passion in his heart. Too many people now embrace the coercive apparatus of the modern state professing the same design.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 2:46pm

Henry David Thoreau famously remarked, "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life." Thoreau feared a single, unarmed man approaching him with such a passion in his heart. Too many people now embrace the coercive apparatus of the modern state professing the same design.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:51pm

Irrelevant, because most theonomists (who are generally Calvinists who reject dispensationalism) don't believe in one-world religion, government etc. in this life. The primary purpose of the church is to foreshadow His return, to live by Kingdom principles until that happens -- which will put it at odds with the world.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:51pm

Irrelevant, because most theonomists (who are generally Calvinists who reject dispensationalism) don't believe in one-world religion, government etc. in this life. The primary purpose of the church is to foreshadow His return, to live by Kingdom principles until that happens -- which will put it at odds with the world.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:56pm

I wonder why that is -- perhaps because the person being approached fears that better life because he/she wants to hold on to what he/she already has. And here's the irony: Many of those same people who argue against the "modern state" had no qualms about using the power of the state to maintain their own superior class status, making that argument hypocritical.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 2:56pm

I wonder why that is -- perhaps because the person being approached fears that better life because he/she wants to hold on to what he/she already has. And here's the irony: Many of those same people who argue against the "modern state" had no qualms about using the power of the state to maintain their own superior class status, making that argument hypocritical.

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:53pm

Do you think that is why Thoreau said what he did? Was he simply trying to hold on to what he had?

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:53pm

Do you think that is why Thoreau said what he did? Was he simply trying to hold on to what he had?

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:57pm

Right. Voluntarily choosing to live collectively with other people would be ideal. I can think of few things more undesirable than being forced to live collectively with other people who didn't want to do so. Granted, God calls us as Christians to do many things that don't come naturally or that are uncomfortable for us, but he doesn't tell us to force others to do those things.

by: Eric77

07-20-2009 @ 3:57pm

Right. Voluntarily choosing to live collectively with other people would be ideal. I can think of few things more undesirable than being forced to live collectively with other people who didn't want to do so. Granted, God calls us as Christians to do many things that don't come naturally or that are uncomfortable for us, but he doesn't tell us to force others to do those things.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 4:21pm

I would have to hear the "rest of the story," so I don't know for sure. As it is, given what I know about Thoreau I can assume that his words were taken out of context.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 4:21pm

I would have to hear the "rest of the story," so I don't know for sure. As it is, given what I know about Thoreau I can assume that his words were taken out of context.

by: DITE

07-20-2009 @ 5:19pm

Um, yes.

by: DITE

07-20-2009 @ 5:19pm

Um, yes.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 5:50pm

If my comment is irrelevant, then yours is for the same reason. You can't
possibly be arguing that we should come under one world religion in an
attempt to foreshadow the return of Christ, so I'm not sure what your point
was in response to Hannity guy.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 5:50pm

If my comment is irrelevant, then yours is for the same reason. You can't
possibly be arguing that we should come under one world religion in an
attempt to foreshadow the return of Christ, so I'm not sure what your point
was in response to Hannity guy.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 5:55pm

His point was about "socialism" -- which is not only inaccurate but an
outright slur.

by: BlueDeacon

07-20-2009 @ 5:55pm

His point was about "socialism" -- which is not only inaccurate but an
outright slur.

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 7:08pm

Can Sojo do a post on when and how to use quotation marks?

by: lumens

07-20-2009 @ 7:08pm

Can Sojo do a post on when and how to use quotation marks?

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 7:17pm

Maybe like me he fears the unintended consquences of progressive policy. The raising of the minimum wage that causes someone to lose their job. The 40 hour work week that causes someone not to get enough hours of work. Or the mandating of what is covered on my health insurance that causes me to pay more.

And for irony the more the pols want to control the more lobbying is done, GE and Simens are now lobbying for money from the Global Warming fraud. NPR said this morning that lobbying money is at an all time record.

by: prk

07-20-2009 @ 7:17pm

Maybe like me he fears the unintended consquences of progressive policy. The raising of the minimum wage that causes someone to lose their job. The 40 hour work week that causes someone not to get enough hours of work. Or the mandating of what is covered on my health insurance that causes me to pay more.

And for irony the more the pols want to control the more lobbying is done, GE and Simens are now lobbying for money from the Global Warming fraud. NPR said this morning that lobbying money is at an all time record.

by: carlcopas

07-21-2009 @ 12:55am

prk,

could you also address fears of the unintended consequences of unfettered capitalism? E.g., boom-and-bust cycles that cause enormous social damage; rampant materialism and consumerism; waste; a shrinking middle class; ecological damage; the elderly who have to eat catfood because you don't want to "pay more" for a safety net that would allow them to live out their lives in simple dignity, etc. etc.

by: carlcopas

07-21-2009 @ 12:55am

prk,

could you also address fears of the unintended consequences of unfettered capitalism? E.g., boom-and-bust cycles that cause enormous social damage; rampant materialism and consumerism; waste; a shrinking middle class; ecological damage; the elderly who have to eat catfood because you don't want to "pay more" for a safety net that would allow them to live out their lives in simple dignity, etc. etc.

by: TedVothJr

07-21-2009 @ 1:21am

Is it coincidental that man-made disaster on an apocalyptic scale, environmental, economic, political threatens us when some of the People are back in the Land?
Some of Israel are back in Palestine, more as the last gasp, let us hope, of European colonial expansion, with the usual disastrous results for the indigenous population, than as a 'move of God', as we Pentecostals might say.

Look up and rejoice.

Escapist? No, the LORD has work for his Church to do till he gets back, showing the world what his Kingdom's like, preaching the Gospel, using words when necessary.

<3 in Him

Marana, Tha!

by: TedVothJr

07-21-2009 @ 1:21am

Is it coincidental that man-made disaster on an apocalyptic scale, environmental, economic, political threatens us when some of the People are back in the Land?
Some of Israel are back in Palestine, more as the last gasp, let us hope, of European colonial expansion, with the usual disastrous results for the indigenous population, than as a 'move of God', as we Pentecostals might say.

Look up and rejoice.

Escapist? No, the LORD has work for his Church to do till he gets back, showing the world what his Kingdom's like, preaching the Gospel, using words when necessary.

<3 in Him

Marana, Tha!

by: SisterMarie

07-21-2009 @ 6:03pm

Brother McLaren,
What were you doing in a pub? I hope you were not drinking beer.

"Look not upon the wine when it is red..."

"Wine is a mocker..."

by: SisterMarie

07-21-2009 @ 6:03pm

Brother McLaren,
What were you doing in a pub? I hope you were not drinking beer.

"Look not upon the wine when it is red..."

"Wine is a mocker..."

by: prk

07-21-2009 @ 10:32pm

What?

Where are the elderly eating cat food? In the US most of the wealth is held by those over 65. My parents are a prime example, both over 75 with a pension and their house is paid for, no kids at home. They are having a great time waiting for the next Braves game to start on their big screen.

As for all the other things you say I will always think that markets are far more superior than are the pols. Who should decide what is rampant materialism, consumerism and for waste if the market sets a high price for waiste we will have less of it, but if it is cheap we will have more of it. Why is this a problem?

And the shrinking middle class, check that out more closely, look hard at the numbers, household vs. individual. Also look at who the numbers in the household has been going. i.e. a mom and dad working and living in the same household will have more income than a single mom.

by: prk

07-21-2009 @ 10:32pm

What?

Where are the elderly eating cat food? In the US most of the wealth is held by those over 65. My parents are a prime example, both over 75 with a pension and their house is paid for, no kids at home. They are having a great time waiting for the next Braves game to start on their big screen.

As for all the other things you say I will always think that markets are far more superior than are the pols. Who should decide what is rampant materialism, consumerism and for waste if the market sets a high price for waiste we will have less of it, but if it is cheap we will have more of it. Why is this a problem?

And the shrinking middle class, check that out more closely, look hard at the numbers, household vs. individual. Also look at who the numbers in the household has been going. i.e. a mom and dad working and living in the same household will have more income than a single mom.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:22pm

I've often heard of "the elderly eating cat food" example of how bad poverty is in the U.S. I've never actually known anyone to eat cat food because they couldn't afford other food. There's plenty of human food to eat without resorting to pet food. Rice, beans, potatoes, and frozen and canned vegetables are pretty cheap.

If I knew someone in my community who was surviving on cat food the last thing I would do would be to complain that the federal government isn't helping them. I'd give them some human food to eat.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:22pm

I've often heard of "the elderly eating cat food" example of how bad poverty is in the U.S. I've never actually known anyone to eat cat food because they couldn't afford other food. There's plenty of human food to eat without resorting to pet food. Rice, beans, potatoes, and frozen and canned vegetables are pretty cheap.

If I knew someone in my community who was surviving on cat food the last thing I would do would be to complain that the federal government isn't helping them. I'd give them some human food to eat.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:25pm

You'll see that many of the same people decrying the influence of lobbyists are also the people who are advocating that the federal government get in the business of dispensing more goodies and regulating more of society. As long as there are goodies to be gotten and oxes being gored there will be lobbyists.

by: Eric77

07-21-2009 @ 11:25pm

You'll see that many of the same people decrying the influence of lobbyists are also the people who are advocating that the federal government get in the business of dispensing more goodies and regulating more of society. As long as there are goodies to be gotten and oxes being gored there will be lobbyists.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 2:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:04pm

No. It's an expression of how his thinking has developed over a long time. I don't think he's citing himself as an authority, but just not putting into new words what he's already said.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.

by: BillSamuel

10-22-2009 @ 4:06pm

We must start with the love of God, not with politics. It has immense political ramifications, but the key is starting with God. Here's how Cedar Ridge Community Church expresses the vision we feel God has give us:

Cedar Ridge is a community of hope and transformation dedicated to following Jesus.

Imagine a community that dares to dream of heaven on earth; a community where everyone is accepted and respected and their journey cherished, regardless of their background, beliefs or place in society; where everyone looks out for the concerns of others and no one is alone. Imagine a community of peace and safety where it's possible to shelter from the frenzied pace of life, in order to slow down and explore the mystery and meaning of our existence; where we can take time to address the roots of our anxieties and pain; a place of hope where we can find help and healing and the power to change, no matter how desperate our situation. Imagine a community of people devoted to following Jesus together, learning to live like him and helping one another grow in their relationship with God; where we are gradually transformed to become better people: better friends, better family members, better workers, better neighbors; becoming people who enjoy life to the full and who can also deal with adversity well, learning to grow through failure and suffering. Imagine that community scattered throughout the region around Washington, Baltimore and beyond working as agents of love, peace and hope wherever they are; serving our neighbors, caring for the poor, helping the oppressed. Imagine a community of people who live simply and ethically, who share their land and resources with their neighbors; a community that treasures the Earth and reaches out beyond global, cultural and political barriers to offer friendship and practical support.

Imagine a community of people who make the world a better place.