Abortion Common Ground

Will there be PAYBACK for Dr. Tiller?

Will there be COUNTERTERROR against right-to-lifers?

WHO should the TARGETS be?

WHERE do they LIVE, WORK, WORSHIP?

operationcounterstrike.blogspot.com

Thanks for clearing that up Jim.

LV

How does the excerpt from the FRC distort Jim's view? He did say that he didn't want abortion to become a wedge issue, and Sojourner's has been emphatically in favor of the reforms on the table, in spite of the inclusion of abortion coverage.

Jim is only clarifying his position the moment after the abortion provisions were stripped from the bill. Why didn't he clarify his position in his wedge article?

And the latest talking point from the right is that we don't want the clowns who gave us the Cash for Clunkers fiasco making our healthcare decisions for us. I find that point amusing, but not entirely fair. The abortion argument was there (and rightly so), but was never the main thrust of opposition.

And yeah, why would the Family Research Council hire a guy like Blackwell. Don't the read Dailykos? Dailykos doesn't like him. That settles the question of whether he is a Christian.

"My position, which is also that of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, is that health-care reform should be "abortion neutral"...

--Are you saying the bishops will be happy with this amendment? The early signs are they are not:

"Deirdre A. McQuade, assistant director for policy and communications in the bishops' Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities, said her office was disappointed at the defeat of the Pitts-Stupak-Blunt amendment and passage of the "so-called compromise" Capps amendment."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/09...

For a different perspective, read here: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/090731...

Rather than continue the name calling; stick to the subject at hand. Abortion is taking the life of a human being. This is a moral issue as well as spiritual - and I'm shocked that the Conference of Catholic Bishops is so vague on the subject. Avoiding the issue does not make it anything more than a chance for the Supreme Court to get into the mix. The Court is leaning away from what OUR US Constitution states and that this document is what laws and decisions should be based upon rather than more of the 'if everyone else is doing it - it must be right'. The US and it's leaders must have a moral backbone; someday in the future they will stand before their Creator and answer to Him.

Is that the same Ken Blackwell, who, acting from his two roles as Chairman of the Ohio Republican Party and Ohio Secretary of State, fixed the 2004 Ohio Presidential election for the Bush Mafia and gave America four more years under an incompetent, corrupt and criminal government?

Yes it is.

It says a lot about the Family Research Council that they would hire a slimeball like Ken Blackwell to speak for them.

Why don't they speak for themselves if they have anything to say?

Jim, I hope you continue to stand your own ground while you work to find common ground in the abortion debate.

I hope this legislation does not pass. We need to find ways to reform health care with absolute minimum government involvement. Although government is to be respected because it is ordained by God to provide some measure of control in a fallen world, Scripture refers to human governments as "wild beasts." By allowing our government to have control over such a hugh part of our economy we are opening the door to increasing government control over our lives. Wild beasts need to be controlled not vice versa, and this legislation lets a wild beast out of its cage. We need to wake up. I pray to God, for the sake of our country, that this legislation fails.

The fact that Blackwell hasn't been prosecuted for election fraud speaks to the fact that he didn't commit election fraud.

Kevin wishes this were so.
Eric Holder has only been at Justice for less than a year, working his way up from the bottom of Bush administration criminality.
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but in the end, Ken Blackwell will receive true justice.
Mark my words.

The money consumers are spending is money they won't spend on other goods or services. Further, since consumers are taking out high-interest loans to purchase new automobiles, which takes even more money away (and gives it to banks and Wall Street, since that seems to concern you).

This is typical libertarian speculation on human behavior from the vantage point of a 30,000 foot tall ivory tower.

Take a specific example -- my daughter's new Honda.
She combined an amount from her savings account with a LOW (4.2%) interest loan from Teachers' Credit Union (not Wall Street) and Cash from a Clunker to purchase her new Honda.
She would not have used this money for anything besides a new automobile.
She takes excellent care of her current vehicle, it just doesn't meet her current needs.
When she sells it, she'll get top dollar for her Toyota 4WD and please don't overlook this transaction and its ripple effect, stimulating the American economy.

Here's some early reports on the actual performance of the Cash for Clunkers stimulus of the auto industry.
............................................................
"This program -- the first part of the Waxman-Markey Bill to become law -- has exceeded even the highest expectations. Consumers are trading in old gas guzzlers, large SUVs and pickup trucks for new vehicles that are 69 percent more fuel efficient than their clunker, saving $750 a year on gasoline on average. That means less carbon pollution and less foreign oil from the Middle East.

"By empowering consumers, the program is racing past our expectations for fuel economy improvement. Here are just a few of the early returns:

--Roughly two thirds of deals have resulted in consumers receiving $4500 credit, which applied to only the most fuel efficient trades.

--During the week that the 'Cash for Clunkers' program was launched, GM's small car sales increased 54.8 percent over the preceding week.

--Toyota moved 78 percent of their Cash for Clunkers volume on vehicles that together average 30 mpg, and 39 percent of volume on the Corolla and Prius, which together average 39.5 mpg.

--Ford has seen an average of 7 mpg improvement on Clunkers trades, which represents an estimated annual fuel savings of 228 gallons per customer. The 28 mpg (EPA) Ford Focus is nearly 30 percent of all Ford's Clunker sales.

--Mazda, as of yesterday, saw 57 percent of transactions reported by dealers to be for the purchase of the MAZDA3, the brand's most fuel efficient model at 27 mpg (EPA).
.......................................................................................................

It appears Kevin is way off in his erratic speculations about the performance of this, only the first increment of Cash for Clunkers.

Why does that not surprise me?

And yeah, why would the Family Research Council hire a guy like Blackwell. Don't the read Dailykos? Dailykos doesn't like him. That settles the question of whether he is a Christian.

Anyone who values basic principles of democracy and is aware of the 2004 election fraud in Ohio dislikes Ken Blackwell -- not just DailyKos.
Blackwell is a criminal calling himself a Christian.
It doesn't matter whether he is or he isn't a Christian.
The fact that Blackwell hasn't been prosecuted for election fraud speaks to the politicization of America's justice system -- Karl Rove's name has recently come up again with regard to politicization of the US Justice Department. Rove and Blackwell are co-conspirators in defrauding the election process in Ohio in 2004.
Stay tuned...

And the latest talking point from the right is that we don't want the clowns who gave us the Cash for Clunkers fiasco making our healthcare decisions for us.

A fiasco?
Hogwash!
It's the most effective program so far for stimulating the American economy.
It has an instant 5 times multiplier effect for every taxpayer dollar spent.
A billion dollars produces five billion dollars of stimulation for the auto industry.
The money is reaching Americans directly instead of going to Wall Street and destinations unknown (gambler bonuses and off shore accounts).
A billion dollars puts 250,000 more efficient cars on the road.
And takes 250,000 gas hogs off the road.
Last night I traded a 1993 Toyota van with 250,000 miles, a blown head gasket and a dead battery for $3,500 towards my daughter's new Honda.
Today the House voted $2 billion more for Cash for Clunkers -- it's a great program.

Get over it, conservatives.
What's your best idea for stimulating the economy?
Leave the economy alone and let it fail on its own?

"My position, which is also that of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, is that health-care reform should be "abortion neutral"...

--Are you saying the bishops will be happy with this amendment? The early signs are they are not:

"Deirdre A. McQuade, assistant director for policy and communications in the bishops' Secretariat of Pro-Life Activities, said her office was disappointed at the defeat of the Pitts-Stupak-Blunt amendment and passage of the "so-called compromise" Capps amendment."
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/09...

For a different perspective, read here: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jul/090731...

"Our government is a wild beast that needs to be kept in its cage or it will destroy us all."

Where in God's name did you hear that, hammerud?
Which of America's syndicated psychopaths came up with that one -- Glen Beck, Bill O or the Pigboy?

It was Glen Beck wasn't it?

Just how do you think that the Ohio election was fixed?

Watch this: http://www.freeforall.tv/play-movie
And let me know what you think.

The fact that Blackwell hasn't been prosecuted for election fraud speaks to the fact that he didn't commit election fraud.

"It has an instant 5 times multiplier effect for taxpayer dollars spent."

This ignores basic economics. The money consumers are spending is money they won't spend on other goods or services. Further, since consumers are taking out high-interest loans to purchase new automobiles, which takes even more money away (and gives it to banks and Wall Street, since that seems to concern you).

If someone buys a car they would not have bought otherwise, they are either doing so in lieu of a future vehicle purchase, or are doing so in lieu of purchasing, say, an iPhone.

By your logic, of course, the government could provide a 10% discount on iPhones, and claim a ten to one return on investment.

"A billion dollars puts 250,000 more efficient cars on the road."

That is a very poor return on investment, given that the cars need only get a handful of miles to the gallon more than the previous automobile. Say the average car that is traded in gets 20 mpg, while the average new car gets 25 (that's being generous). Say the average driver drives 12,000 miles per year.

That is a savings of 120 gallons per car, per year, or 30 million gallons total. America uses about 180 billion gallons of gas per year. So that's, what, a .02 percent decrease in gas usage?

But the real problem, according to the talking points, is that congress gauged the public response so poorly. They expected the initial cost outlay to last until Halloween. It lasted four days.

The fact that Blackwell hasn't been prosecuted for election fraud speaks to the fact that he didn't commit election fraud.

Kevin wishes this were so.
Eric Holder has only been at Justice for less than a year, working his way up from the bottom of Bush administration criminality.
The wheels of justice turn slowly, but in the end, Ken Blackwell will receive true justice.
Mark my words.

The money consumers are spending is money they won't spend on other goods or services. Further, since consumers are taking out high-interest loans to purchase new automobiles, which takes even more money away (and gives it to banks and Wall Street, since that seems to concern you).

This is typical libertarian speculation on human behavior from the vantage point of a 30,000 foot tall ivory tower.

Take a specific example -- my daughter's new Honda.
She combined an amount from her savings account with a LOW (4.2%) interest loan from Teachers' Credit Union (not Wall Street) and Cash from a Clunker to purchase her new Honda.
She would not have used this money for anything besides a new automobile.
She takes excellent care of her current vehicle, it just doesn't meet her current needs.
When she sells it, she'll get top dollar for her Toyota 4WD and please don't overlook this transaction and its ripple effect, stimulating the American economy.

Here's some early reports on the actual performance of the Cash for Clunkers stimulus of the auto industry.
............................................................
"This program -- the first part of the Waxman-Markey Bill to become law -- has exceeded even the highest expectations. Consumers are trading in old gas guzzlers, large SUVs and pickup trucks for new vehicles that are 69 percent more fuel efficient than their clunker, saving $750 a year on gasoline on average. That means less carbon pollution and less foreign oil from the Middle East.

"By empowering consumers, the program is racing past our expectations for fuel economy improvement. Here are just a few of the early returns:

--Roughly two thirds of deals have resulted in consumers receiving $4500 credit, which applied to only the most fuel efficient trades.

--During the week that the 'Cash for Clunkers' program was launched, GM's small car sales increased 54.8 percent over the preceding week.

--Toyota moved 78 percent of their Cash for Clunkers volume on vehicles that together average 30 mpg, and 39 percent of volume on the Corolla and Prius, which together average 39.5 mpg.

--Ford has seen an average of 7 mpg improvement on Clunkers trades, which represents an estimated annual fuel savings of 228 gallons per customer. The 28 mpg (EPA) Ford Focus is nearly 30 percent of all Ford's Clunker sales.

--Mazda, as of yesterday, saw 57 percent of transactions reported by dealers to be for the purchase of the MAZDA3, the brand's most fuel efficient model at 27 mpg (EPA).
.......................................................................................................

It appears Kevin is way off in his erratic speculations about the performance of this, only the first increment of Cash for Clunkers.

Why does that not surprise me?

Cash for Clunkers came from Europe where it was already proven to be successful -- not from some think tank 30,000 feet up there.

Libertarians conveniently ignore facts on the ground just to preserve their immaculate vision of a free market paradise right here on earth.
Now it's a proven fact that bottom up economics leaves the free market in the ditch in this collapsed economy -- that was originally caused by free marketeers.

It won't be long before comprehensive, fully confirmed statistics are available from auto dealers on the ground.
Then you'll have to eat all those anecdotes, Kevin.

Just how do you think that the Ohio election was fixed? You are totally mistaken on this one. Obviously, you didn't like George Bush but the election in Ohio was not fixed.

Just how do you think that the Ohio election was fixed?

Watch this: http://www.freeforall.tv/play-movie
And let me know what you think.

I'm not sure what connection this issue has to any election hijinks in Ohio.

Ken Blackwell is the connection.

Hey Blue Deacon, I have to disagree with you that Ken Blackwell's track record as an election fraud conspirator in the Ohio 2004 presidential election is a separate issue from his attack piece on Jim Wallis and on Obama's health care efforts.

I think it's important when engaging in political skirmishes with demagogues to understand what one's opponent stands for.
From Blackwell's actions in Ohio 2004, we learn that he stands for 'win at all costs', no holds barred, scorched earth tactics, deception, fraud, break the law if you have to, but don't get caught at it.
Ken Blackwell has abused the public trust and is unrepentant.
Now that he's inserted himself into the national health care debate, using abortion as a wedge issue, we can expect the same demagoguery, deceit and treachery as we have seen in the past.

Ken Blackwell's closing line in his American Spectator piece, Keeping Abortion Out of Health Care, his opening salvo over Jim Wallis' bow.

This is why Jim Wallis's position is so precarious. For liberal activists, abortion-on-demand, fully funded, constitutionally protected, and no longer called wrong is the sine qua non of any national health care scheme. Jim Wallis will learn this to his sorrow.

This is hogwash, but people are buying into it, including even a few bloggers on this thread.

While it's true Ken Blackwell no longer holds public office, he is not 'out of power'.
And by the way, what happened in Ohio 2004 was not what I would call 'hijinks':
boisterous celebration or merrymaking; unrestrained fun: The city is full of conventioneers indulging in their usual high jinks.
Playful, often noisy and rowdy activity, usually involving mischievous pranks.
Syn: horseplay, skylarking.

I call it a hijack.

Perhaps your beef is with the American Spectator, not necessarily
Blackwell. And FWIW, I too oppose abortion-on-demand, so I "get" the
argument.

In some quarters that may be true; however, without the evidence he doesn't
have the right to say that. But, as I was saying, fault for that goes with
the magazine for publishing it, not just to Blackwell for saying it.
Remember, that's the same magazine that published allegations that Bill
Clinton was using Arkansas state troopers to get women -- which turned out to
be false.

OK you're a journalist and sensitive to libel issues and journalistic responsibility.
I'm just a witness.
For me, The American Spectator has always been the political version of The National Inquirer.
Ken Blackwell doesn't change that.

This also reflects on the Family Research Council for hiring a crooked demagogue like Ken Blackwell to get the Christian army pumped up for war on universal health care.

Secretaries of State influence elections all the time, based on their partisan proclivities. That's why state parties pour so much money into SOS elections. Mark Ritchie assuredly influenced the Coleman-Franken dispute.

Is it a good thing? No. But it slices both ways. Your absurd video is not persuasive to any adult.