Abolish Nuclear Weapons

I like to live in reality and the reality is that, as nice as it would be to have a world free of nuclear weapons, it is not going to happen. A lot of things that would be nice if they happened, aren't going to happen because we live in a fallen world run by evil people that, according to Scripture, is headed for a crash -- a major crash. God has clearly put forth the entire scenario, all the way to the end, in Scripture. Jesus, speaking of end time events, said "unless those days were shortened no flesh would be saved on the earth ..." I believe that part of the reason for that is (unfortunately) the use of nuclear weapons, effects of which are suggested in Zechariah 14:12.

I think of all the serious threats to human life--the abolition of nuclear weapons may be the most possible. There is one nation on the Earth that has been in the strongest position to identify, champion, and work to that end. And every year and decade it has not been serious about doing so--the issue becomes more difficult and more of a threat to all.

This is not solely a decision to live with a problem or get rid of a problem--but a decision as to whether to allow an issue to continue to proliferate and become more threatening--or whether we are going to back this thing down.

The reality is the mere existence of the weapons is one factor dragging nations into conflict with each other. This world is not the world of 1939, 1940, 1941, etc. where many nations gradually came into a world war. The next one could well evolve in hours/minutes. The fact some see this as a Biblical eventuality is absolutley and unequivocally no reason to shirk our Biblical calling to steward the earth, to live as peacemakers, to uphold life and the dignity of life and to expect those we place in political office to do likewise.

Hammerud possible use of nuclear weapons or any means by God is because he uses any thing to work for His Good, but it should not be reason to ignore the reality of the indiscriminate carnage and destruction nuclear weapons do . I liked the tone of this essay, it gave respect to those who may disagree about our history , and realized the total importance of believers being in unity on this . The problem is unity in today's Christian world , usually not much offered here , and I believe it should be noted and praised.

I have to admit this is one of those issues I might not totally agree with Reverand Wallis on. While I'd agree that we should reduce the stockpile that we have (especially since we're no longer in a arms race with the Soviet Union), having some around has been helpful in that it has discouraged nations from waging the sort of large scale conflicts like the two previous world wars, that had resulted in millions of deaths and human suffering. Yes, the fewer the nukes the better, but I'm not sure it would be a good idea to get rid of them all.

i.e. The only way to secure the world is to act so crazy and dominant so as to convince everyone you are willing to destroy the world to save it.

There is a name for this defense strategy: "The Sadam Hussein School of Benign Evil"

The same reason people fear you and will bow down to you is the same reason they will hang you.

Is that our God-calling as a nation?

We need to have MAD - Mutual assurance of destruction. Nukes will never go away. I agree it would have been a wonderful world if we never had them, but the world does.

Why not call for working together towards the "reduction" of nuclear weapons? You know that lecture about "why can't we all just get along?". Oh wait...that's only the killing of babies that you fight for "reduction".

Adream that will never happen. nukes are here to stay. dont think we need any more. not sure if we do make more or just replenish the old stock, dont know. i would hope we are not making more just to have more. I find it funny and a bit silly to think we could rid the earth of them. how about we try something more likely to work. teach about Christ and about morals. As has been mentioned lets stick to reducing, though i hardly think it matters, it doesnt take to many to do the damage. what do we reduce it to ten 20 less, how do we know the rest are dooing the same. lets be a bit realistic.I would be more concerned about my taxes going to make more nukes then it takes to destroy the earth. if it only takes 20 to destroy the earth why do we need 100.

Your right. nothing irratates me more when those who cry and fuss and make it thier life to save the world rid us of war and nukes etc etc. and then when you ask them about abortion they blow it off or say we should try to reduce it, that it a devises issue, its complicated and on and on, therir say no war EVER, but abortion is needed or as i said complicated. HOGWASH.

"[W]e must demand thoughtful and limited approaches to military action as a last resort, including systematic nuclear disarmament - which the U.S. bishops urged must be "more than a moral ideal" but also "a policy goal.""

http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/international/nwstate...

"Is that our God-calling as a nation?"

Wow that is a leap . Is your idea of a God one who says allow the other bullies to go forth and multiply . The biggest bully in the playground always picks on the most vulernable tiill he or she sees that confrontation will occur from a stronger force if they continue to do so . Getting rid of nuclear weapons while other countries use them or threaten to use them is shyowing a lack of common sense , nothing to do with God . The Lord has no condition of having common sense to be in his Church . But concern for your brothers and sisters in our countries and regions who may reside in a tyrants regionshow a lack of usdearstanding of dis arming but as the other side does also method . . Nuclear weapons shows the rest of the world you can not be bullied , therefore use of nuclear weapons is useless. No nuclear weapons could make a bully he could win , and therefrore use them .

I don't think I called for unilateral disarmement. There are something like 25000 nuclear warheads on the planet--almost all in the US and Russia.

My question about our calling is whether BillyStrains thinking--which sounds the way Sadam Hussein acted--is the closest to God's order that we can come.

The comments here that reflect a complete resignation to the presence of nuclear weapons are very dangerous in my thinking. Their existence is a threat against all life--permanently. They are not just a few bits of graffitti littering the landscape.

It is humanity's decision.

The world did not decide to create, test, and deploy nuclear weapons. The US has done more to advance and spread nuclear weapons than any nation. It is on our plate to do the most to remove them from the world.

We are not dumb, helpless fools.

If we didn't someone else would have. Thankfully another country with a ruthless dictator didn't spread nuclear weapons instead. I'm for reducing Nukes, but to get rid of them all together would be ridicules. As for Russia, they need to focus on finding the 11 war heads they've lost since the Cold War (World War III).

I don't see how you projected Sadam on Billy Stain's thinking . Her wanted nuclear arms reduced .
Destroying the earth once or the compacity to do it a 1000 times seems to be off target any way in our commitment to maintaing peace throughout the world .
I thought using God to defend your position , which you have clarified , was off base .

The threat is not just from countries like The Soviet Union , its who they have sold information and materials to . I have heard it is not important if Iran gains nuclear weapons . Could a charismatic religious personality take control of these countries as Hitler did ? President Obama has to be concerned about these matters,

And I certainly do not not mind your position , but glad you stated you were not for unilateral disarmement. But please be careful using I am on the side of God tactic ,
I am sure Billy Stain is . He is a progressive , but no one is perfect .

What I was responding to was the presumption that in spite of the awful nature of nuclear weapons--they have deterred war (and have done so to a significant degree). Although I have often held similar sentiments I believe that presumption is worth challenging--both on a practical basis and from a Biblical basis.

My comment about Sadam related to the whole saga around whether Sadam had WMD's and his long 'cat and mouse' game with the United Nations--which ultimately drug us into this current bloody mess. I did not follow the story in detail but it seems recently it has become more explicitly clear that he wanted the world to believe they had that capacity as a deterrant and a threat (primarily against Iran).

Sadam was using the same argument Billystrain and others (including the U.S.) make: i.e. If I have nuclear weapons in my pocket no one will dare attack. We will be safer. The world will be safer.

But this depends on a very odd argument. It argues that any other nation would be crazy to attack us because we have nuclear weapons--and they would certainly not wish to risk the possibility of being blown off the face of the Earth. Hence, no one will attack first.

If we truly believed the argument we would rush to give everyone nuclear weapons. Why don't we do that??

Because, deep down, we know we are not trustworthy to steward such a lethal weapon.

It is a grand delusion to think there are somehow two categories of nations: First are those that are stable, rationale, and peaceloving. and Second are those that are unstable, irrational, and love war. If nothing else, it is a delusion to think that those we put in the first category will forever be stable and peacemakers (e.g. Soviet Union--the great 'peacemaker' broken up into pieces unable to even identify all their warheads).

I think it also very strange to argue--"Of course we would never be the first to use the weapon offensively--but within 20 minutes of you launching we will retaliate with the force to destroy you, destroy us, and destroy the world. We are rational and want peace. We are not insane but will guard the world against insanity and destroy it if necessary."

The only way the argument really works is if the world trusts us we won't use first (which they don't); and that we are just crazy enough to blow up the world. Do we really want to posture ourselves before the world like Sadam?

I understand you "on the side of God" warning. But I personally distinguish between raising the question "Is this what God wants from us" versus saying "I am on God's side." I hope Jesus' followers would work towards policy ends that we deem to align with God's desires.

I don't trust the State to give a police officer a handgun without strong safeguards against the misuse of that power. And we trust them with the power to destroy the world hundreds of times over??

It corrodes the hearts of nations and humanity.

Why are we worried about Pakistan?? What are we worried about Iran? Why are we worried about North Korea?? Why are we worried about the nukes in the old Soviet states? Why does this weapon, proclaimed to be the keeper of peace, keep drawing us into war?

If it spreads to half the nations and into space--will we then have peace?

If we want to stop proliferation will all those who aspire to possess weapons buy the argument, "These weapons ought be banned from everyone but us?"

Backing this down does not demand unilateral disarmament. It does demand a moral and pragmatic commitment to the elimination of the weapon. If we do not take that stance we have no principled case to ever argue another nation should not have them. The only argument would be a pragmatic one in which we say, "It doesn't make sense for you." But our judgment will never carry the day when they say, "If it makes sense for you to have them to point at us--it makes sense for us to have them to point at you."

Thank you , those were some well thought out points . I usually do not hear such points with the logic assigned that you have .

"If it spreads to half the nations and into space--will we then have peace?"

The problem with the question and the topic at hand is regardless if we dis arm , to become nuclear ready, threaten and even possibly use nuclear weapons . I only believe your points become valid with other nations of good will , not the bullies. And their are bullies who have and obtained power in this modern age . Your points do not make sense to someone reaching out and understands the importance of peace .

Thats not a threat of dooms day , its just I think we Americans take our own actions as having too much importance at times . Iran seeking and possibly even using nuclear arms may actually have NOTHING to do with us . To say using nuclear weapons in a scenario where we are attacked is of course a situation which has no outcome that is tolerable . But also its not irresponsible or Un Christian to say if we are attacked by a country and do not have nuclear weapons , the outcome could be worse for us and the next country if we did not . Either scenario is distasteful , and as in the movie War games the only reasonable way to play nuclear war is not to play .

And why would a world without nuclear weapons be ridicules?

Bombs dropped on Japan--13 KT

Number of KT's the U.S. currently deploys on Trident submarines: c. 490,000

Put another way:

Hiroshima Bomb: XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Warheads on one Trident Sub:
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Actually my little graphic did not come out. Each row of X''s has 1000. The X's represent KT's (not numbers of warheads)

Trident Facts :
Number of Trident submarines in U.S. fleet = 18
Number of Trident missiles per Trident sub = 24
Number of nuclear warheads per Trident missile = 8
Total number of warheads currently deployed on U.S. Trident fleet = 3,456 Percentage of total U.S. nuclear warheads deployed on Trident fleet = 48%
Number of kilotons on one Trident W76 warhead = 100
Number of kilotons on one Trident W88 warhead = 475
Number of W88 warheads deployed on Trident fleet = 384
Total number of kilotons deployed on Trident fleet = 489,600
Number of kilotons on atomic bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima = 14

Number of people killed by the atomic bombing of Hiroshima = 150,000
Number of "Hiroshimas" each Trident is capable of destroying = 1,000 minimum; 6,080 maximum Number of nuclear warheads deployed by the U.S. = 7,206
Number of warheads deployed by Russia = 6,240
Total nuclear warhead deployment of England, France, and China = 1,110
Number of nuclear warheads based in Kitsap County, Washington = 1,696

Price of one Trident II D-5 missile = $60,000,000
Price to operate one Trident submarine for one year = $77,000,000
Total cost of the entire Trident program through year 2032 = GRAND TOTAL: $170,200,000,000

And we can be thankful and tranquil and proud,
For we've been endowed with the mushroom shaped cloud
And we know for certain that some happy day
Someone will set the powder off and we will all be blown away

United for Peace and Justice initiates petition to President Obama for 2010 Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference

http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/302/t/6687...