An Open Letter On Health Care to Conservative Christians in the U.S.

I agree. I couldn't even understand the first group of posts. They are mostly incoherent and don't even seem to address the essay we are supposed to be discussing. I am so sad and tired of this hatefulness. I would be ashamed to have any of my non-Christian friends read this discussion so. This has nothing to do with the Jesus I love, who teaches and molds people with incredible gentleness. It sounds more like angry people trying to sanctify their own far-from-Godlike predjudice by slapping on a label that reads "Holy."

Great post, Brian! Whether we agree with Obama's health care policies or not (I'm still on the fence, personally), we need to discuss it and debate it with civility and respect. Especially us Christians.

I appreciate the fullness, clarity, and passion of this piece. And I agree with the appeal.

In addition, I would highlight that each of the appeals to honest dialogue that I have seen do not mention listening.

If I observe two people; one is yelling and the other is quiet--I am tempted to tell one to quiet down.

However, from my fathering experience observing children, I realize one party yelling is often the result of another party not listening.

Talk radio has become so rabid partly because it rode the sentiments of many who felt their views were not conveyed, or even heard, in the mainstream. The 'moral majority' did the same. It seems to me as their voices have become more amplified--there has been a tendency to keep talking louder and forget they may face the same temptation to not listen.

Mr Mclaren--I am sure you digest enough public dialogue to know many will take your post as part of a slap-down of those who disagree with Obama. You point out clearly you are critically reviewing the components of healthcare reform proposals. But if you want your appeal to conservatives for moderation of dialogue--then why start out with a slap at their faith, intelligence and integrity. Maybe they are using words that sound like Hannity and others because they have legitimate concerns. Maybe they enter public discourse using those words because they lack others. Why not start the dialogue with listening instead of critique?????

Maybe the zinger makes for more engaged readers and stimulated conversation. Which might be the same reason the conversation got this hot in the first place.

The government interference in healthcare will not solve problems long term. Just like Social Security and Medicare this programs will suffer from not having enough financial resources, funded through tax dollars, to support the program and the inevitable cuts will come. A better solution is to allow faith-based and community-based health clinics to care for their own citizens within the community. Government grant funding could help these ministries and non-profits but these clinics are most effective when they are supported with local funds by individual contributors and local foundation grants.

In my work with Here-4-You Christian Grant Consulting I meet ministries striving to provide healthcare services, healthcare sharing programs, free clinics, pregnancy centers, and other health related organizations. It is predicted that these programs will be harmed or even shut down by "healthcare reform." The Christian and faith-based organizations are most concerned as to how new regulations may interfere with their missions.

You forget one thing: It's not the "liberals" who are driving the debate, nor are they consistently denouncing the conservatives (and especially in any organized way).

Let's be clear that, first and foremost, this is not simply about health care -- it's about ideology and a people who live to defeat the other side for its own sake. We who are not conservatives understand that they really don't have -- or even intend to propose -- a reasonable health-care insurance plan; their goal is simply to be obstructionists, in essence, representing a collective pout because they can't get their way at the ballot box. Their treatment of President Clinton should give everyone a clue as to their real motives.

It is unfortunate that mutual trust and respect has broken down between partisans in this country, and that Christians have gotten caught up in it. But that is the situation we face.

If we are to break this pattern of escalating rhetoric and political vindictiveness, we are all going to need to confront our own failures. I will not say that the protests against the health care plan have always exhibited the highest of republican (small r) virtues. But there is only so much that we can do to rectify this without matching steps on the part of Sojourners -- after all, the Christian right is connected to a larger conservative and free market movement that sees health care as a pivotal issue. Something similar can be said of the Christian left. If there is going to be a Christian political movement that transcends these divisions, we need a Christian left that is committed to honesty and civility as well.

If you want us to break ranks from our friends on the right over tactics, it would help if Sojo would condemn the SEIU goons who attacked a peaceful vendor outside of a town hall meeting near St. Louis. It would help if you would rebuke Barack Obama for his suggestion that those whom he deems responsible for "the mess" should silence themselves. It would help if you would distance yourselves from Speaker Pelosi's attempts to paint opponents of health care reform as fascists -- that's a label that's been thrown around carelessly by a lot of people.

You say that conservatives are organizing protests that exaggerate the level of opposition. Will you call on your own side to refrain from organizing counterprotests?

You want us to make the first move towards civility, but are unwilling to make moves yourself. Perhaps we need to work out some sort of joint statement, so that the excesses on both sides of the partisan divide can be addressed simultaneously. Otherwise I see no way forward at this time, the bonds of trust that should exist among Christians are too damaged.

LV

There have been calls on this blog for honesty and truth telling during this debate over health care. I agree. But someone from Sojourners (perhaps Jim, because he's so close to the President) needs to call the President on the biggest untruth being told over and over and over again straight from his lips - that if you like your insurance you'll be able to keep it under the plans being proposed in Congress. This is simply not true. It's a lie. Why isn't anyone at Sojourners who is concerned about truth and honesty holding the guy with the biggest megaphone responsible? What happened to speaking truth to power?

Read this. If it's incorrect, tell me why, please:

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/24/news/economy/he...

Of course I didn't find it frightening. It's ridiculous. What I find frightening is that educated people read this stuff and take it to heart. It's the "birther" movement of the left. The idea that a handful of obnoxious people shouting down Congressmen at townhall meetings is a prelude to a fascist takeover of government is crazy.

A rather large handful of obnoxious people being recruited and paid for at the very highest levels of the Republican party and explicitly told to subvert the democratic process. Whether you call this fascism or not, it is despicable. There is nothing comparable on the left.

"Do you have any evidence that the protesters are being paid to go to townhalls and shout? I haven't heard this."

You said you read the article, right? You might also watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct--N3hJfxs and then read yesterday's post on GP about "Who Lit the Fire under the Right Wing?" The evidence is there and it's pretty glaring.

I was recently told in another discussion here that we don't live in a democracy; we live in a republic. I asked for clarification, and it was explained to me that what I was calling democracy - the majority, which in this case wants national health care, getting its way - was really mob rule, and that a republic exists to safeguard the rights of minorities.

If you want to see what mob rule really looks like, check out these protests. Then think hard about where they're coming from. A mob is not the same thing as a majority.

Anothernonymous,
thank you for posting both the article and the Youtube link. Together, they raise the very important question of whether or not we can still have an honest public dialogue in this nation.

Good Letter challenges Paul's.
The Othello Tab

Couldn't agree more. I find it odd that this piece was called "An Open Letter to Conservative Christians..." How can you ever even dialogue with people when you include so many swipes and zingers in such a letter? When you make GBA (guilt by association) after GBA? Are you even attempting dialogue with such a piece?

I wondered where else his letter appeared Jesse ? Does he not realize how insulting and arrogant it appears ? According to him and his data , The body of Christ is just manure , with of course himself a beacon ? The arrogance is quite amazing , the Bodies of Christ I have been involved in , mostly Evangelical but some mainstream have been abundantly full of kind people , concerned with their neighbors , yes have met some folks who use scripture to promote I am better then you " see McClarens essay here " based on race, economic position , also education . Jesus I have forgotten what college he graduated from , but somehow his method of reaching out to the body of Christ , and lifting it to greater heights is based on The Word, Holy Spirit and a Relationship with Christ . Not based on voting the way the McClarens or Robertson''s of this world direct us to . MANY Christians who are not racist or find torture their cup of tea find Brian McClarren's own religious views quite out of the normal understanding of the church , Regardless He is responsible for that ,. The belief of hell as a fairy tale shows a heretical view of the Atonement and its meaning . Jesus spoke more about hell then any prophet in the Bible, Christ was not manilipating us Brian . I suggest he had our best interest at heart , a I am sure our Lord did , you ? You speak from a position of intolerance saying you support tolerance. McClaren support for President Obama during the election shows a political bias the very least that should be noted in his essays .

President Obama White House email sign up is sending out e mails to counter the other protesters . Its hard to get people to show up I agree. And any person that disrupts a town hall meeting regardless which view he supports hurts all of us . Recently a person was put into a hospital by folks in a Union who supported Obama care . Does this now mean that he be put into that thugs category as Another Anonomous has also ? Or Air America, a liberal secular sound piece of the left which takes on the same issues of support that God's politics does , but ridicule Catholics and Evangelicals because of the stupidity of their Faith , not just their politics. McClaren leaves the lesser intelligence in place , just changes the reasoning to listening to the wrong people.

If he wants a dialog , insulting the intelligence of the person you are having the conversation with shows really you don't want a conversation , a one sided one , because your side is receiving all the propaganda and my side from my sources is for truth justice and the Americvan way .

Whats strange is I have come to ther place in the debate where i think government and the the free market can do better on this issue joining somehow , keep standards of medical care high, research and availability high , using the best of both the government and private sectors . I would go to a town hall meeting , but I don't think the average American has a voice anymore . The experts know it all , and know how stupid we are from either side of the political boundaries. What gets me is McClaren does not get he is part of the problem, worse he pits Christian against christian .

Having said all that , why does a person who has such a low opinion of Christians expect anything but support from the far left and rejection from the majority in Christianity .
Perhaps that is why the organization itself has seen its failure to gather support from Evangelical Christianisty amd mainstream beliefs that still Hold Jesus Lord not politics, power, or I am smarter then you are politics or my god is nicer then your GOD like those who changes the scripture to fit his own world views.

You forget one thing: It's not the "liberals" who are driving the debate, nor are they consistently denouncing the conservatives (and especially in any organized way).

Let's be clear that, first and foremost, this is not simply about health care -- it's about ideology and a people who live to defeat the other side for its own sake. We who are not conservatives understand that they really don't have -- or even intend to propose -- a reasonable health-care insurance plan; their goal is simply to be obstructionists, in essence, representing a collective pout because they can't get their way at the ballot box. Their treatment of President Clinton should give everyone a clue as to their real motives.

The government interference in healthcare will not solve problems long term. Just like Social Security and Medicare this programs will suffer from not having enough financial resources, funded through tax dollars, to support the program and the inevitable cuts will come. A better solution is to allow faith-based and community-based health clinics to care for their own citizens within the community. Government grant funding could help these ministries and non-profits but these clinics are most effective when they are supported with local funds by individual contributors and local foundation grants.

In my work with Here-4-You Christian Grant Consulting I meet ministries striving to provide healthcare services, healthcare sharing programs, free clinics, pregnancy centers, and other health related organizations. It is predicted that these programs will be harmed or even shut down by "healthcare reform." The Christian and faith-based organizations are most concerned as to how new regulations may interfere with their missions.

Help out this debate. Liberals are overwhelming: Should Americans have equal access to health care? Good or Bad?.

It is unfortunate that mutual trust and respect has broken down between partisans in this country, and that Christians have gotten caught up in it. But that is the situation we face.

If we are to break this pattern of escalating rhetoric and political vindictiveness, we are all going to need to confront our own failures. I will not say that the protests against the health care plan have always exhibited the highest of republican (small r) virtues. But there is only so much that we can do to rectify this without matching steps on the part of Sojourners -- after all, the Christian right is connected to a larger conservative and free market movement that sees health care as a pivotal issue. Something similar can be said of the Christian left. If there is going to be a Christian political movement that transcends these divisions, we need a Christian left that is committed to honesty and civility as well.

If you want us to break ranks from our friends on the right over tactics, it would help if Sojo would condemn the SEIU goons who attacked a peaceful vendor outside of a town hall meeting near St. Louis. It would help if you would rebuke Barack Obama for his suggestion that those whom he deems responsible for "the mess" should silence themselves. It would help if you would distance yourselves from Speaker Pelosi's attempts to paint opponents of health care reform as fascists -- that's a label that's been thrown around carelessly by a lot of people.

You say that conservatives are organizing protests that exaggerate the level of opposition. Will you call on your own side to refrain from organizing counterprotests?

You want us to make the first move towards civility, but are unwilling to make moves yourself. Perhaps we need to work out some sort of joint statement, so that the excesses on both sides of the partisan divide can be addressed simultaneously. Otherwise I see no way forward at this time, the bonds of trust that should exist among Christians are too damaged.

LV

Can you honestly say that you read this article and did not find it frightening? Note, BTW, paradoxtor's claim that Brian's own post represents everything that he claims to argue against. It seems that some people cannot distinguish a call for respectful dialogue from a rant inciting people to violence. I posted this to make that point, and p. promptly chimed in with empirical evidence. Do you consider that classy?

What kept me awake last night was wondering whether it would be possible to resist the thug squads currently being mobilized against health care reform in a non-violent manner.

LV, read the article at the link I posted and tell me if you really think the term "fascist" is being thrown around carelessly. Until I read it, I would have been inclined to think so myself. (Honest!)

In fairness, he asks whether the McLaren piece represents a desire to dialogue. That is not the same as expressing his unwillingness to dialogue.

Well, well, this is how we get to listen to each other. I would say please go to http://www.factcheck.org/ and actually check to see what is truth. Please do this in order that we can have a true dialogue regarding health care. Incidently, there are other truths there as well, both for and contrary to our president. May God bless you and yours.

If Obama misstated facts he needs to be called on it. But your ¨tu quoque¨ argument is just another effort at obfuscation. To equate the President's misstatement of fact--factual error (you do not know if it was purposeful misrepresentation or a mistake) with what the conservative PACS are doing is clearly bad faith. He is not lying about "death panels" a la Sarah Palin or circulating patently false emails scaring the heck out of people to become hysterical like the conservatives are doing. It is your prerogative to see the two actions as being equivalent but that would say more about your debating ethic than it would about the substance of your argument:

Boy! You have to look hard for any bias or condemnation or insult in Brian's post, and yet there are always those who find it. I can't in the world imagine what the problem is with asking for truth and respect. It's always fair to identify one's own beliefs, especially in a request for Christian behavior that isn't demanding everyone else believe in the same details.

There is nothing Christian, or certainly mature, about shouting and condemning even when one's own position is radically different. The best example of this I find in the gospels involves crowd shouting, "We have no king but Caesar! Crucify him!"

I find no encouragement or humility or kindness or grace in assuming one's own "freedom of speech" when it usurps that of others. Certainly not the Spirit of Christ calling us to love one another or give our lives for our friends.

I notice there's not much reflection claiming Christian foundation here. Apples and oranges. You can take a piece written in reflection of the teaching and Spirit of God and reflect on it in the same spirit. Or you can ignore the faith issues and interpret the whole blog entry by political standards. The latter is an example of the whole premise of Brian's plea.