Get E-Mail Updates
Related Stories
Resources
Like what you're reading? Get Sojourners E-Mail updates!
I heard this interview on MSNBC and when Jim ended it in talking about Jesus healing people and not for profit. No, Jesus did not do His work for profit. Jim, what about you? Do you sell your "best-selling" books or give them away? Do you charge a fee for speaking engagements or travel to share Christ's teachings for free? Jesus did not charge to deliver the Sermon on the Mount, so I hope you follow those same ethical standards in your delivery of His message as you expect doctors, nurses and all other medical care workers and companies to perform their jobs not for profit.
I heard this interview on MSNBC and when Jim ended it in talking about Jesus healing people and not for profit. No, Jesus did not do His work for profit. Jim, what about you? Do you sell your "best-selling" books or give them away? Do you charge a fee for speaking engagements or travel to share Christ's teachings for free? Jesus did not charge to deliver the Sermon on the Mount, so I hope you follow those same ethical standards in your delivery of His message as you expect doctors, nurses and all other medical care workers and companies to perform their jobs not for profit.
This sounds to me like one group of people looking at their neighbor in need, and then taking the money from their other neighbor who has more than he needs, and using it for their good. If it isn't ethical to do it on our own, it's not ethical to do it with the power of the State. That is not true Kingdom practice.
Like it or not, your tax dollars have always been spent on other people besides yourself. Your tax dollars will always been spent on other people. There's no getting around it. Name a single time in this country since federal taxes started to be collected that your tax dollar was not spent on someone else or on all citizens equally.
If tax dollars were being spent to protect all of us equally, such as police protection or legal protection or military protection, sure. And those are taxes. But for a tax to specifically be levied against a specific group of people to help another group of people I do not find to be morally right.
Um, who is lying about Obama Care coving abortion? Here is the video proof to that question. I guess the unborn, 80% born and newly born do not qualify as "all God's children". But no, not everyone is God's child, everyone is created in the image of God and has intrinsic value, something Liberals reject.
This sounds to me like one group of people looking at their neighbor in need, and then taking the money from their other neighbor who has more than he needs, and using it for their good. If it isn't ethical to do it on our own, it's not ethical to do it with the power of the State. That is not true Kingdom practice.
I agree. If we don't look at the ethical issues associated with taxes and how government decisions are made, then the perspective is skewed. Money doesn't come from thin air.
Would it be right to enslave 40% of Americans, forcing them to work on behalf of the other 60%?
Like it or not, your tax dollars have always been spent on other people besides yourself. Your tax dollars will always been spent on other people. There's no getting around it. Name a single time in this country since federal taxes started to be collected that your tax dollar was not spent on someone else or on all citizens equally.
So, what is true Kingdom practice? To protect those who have more than they need from the neighbors who need? I don't recall Jesus ever protecting the rights or needs of the comfortable. The beatitudes call us to humility, meekness, peacemaking and mourning. They don't call us to be priveleged and constantly calling our for our "rights". Jesus never said to comfort and protect the comfortable; they will always get theirs.
Frankly, this is why our country is so now so polarized. Everybody wants to stake his claim to a certain position, and then use Scripture to back it up. The Religious Right, Sojo, Libertarians, liberation theology, etc. all want a stake in what they believe is "right." In Africa and other areas of the developing world, Christians are carrying out the words of Philippians 2: to look after the needs of others before themselves. The Libertarian viewpoint is just the opposite: lets get ours first, and then look after the needs of others later if we get around to it. But don't anyone tell me what to do with MY money, because it's mine, all mine.
If tax dollars were being spent to protect all of us equally, such as police protection or legal protection or military protection, sure. And those are taxes. But for a tax to specifically be levied against a specific group of people to help another group of people I do not find to be morally right.
Jim,
In all of politics, there is lying on both sides of any debate. What I hope everyone can do is get past accusing each other of lying and sincerely try to perceive the truth. An essential ingredient here is admitting to ourselves that our perspective is limited, and therefore subject to deception. If we can't admit that, we are guilty of the judgment Jesus spoke of.
Everyone agrees, there is a moral issue in health care debate. If it weren't for all the deception and misinformation, there would be no debate. Where does the deception start? In school. The way history and economics have been taught in the majority of schools (k-12 and beyond) for the last 70 years has led to the deception of major blocks of the populace. As a result, I'm afraid the vast majority of Americans (Christians included) simply don't understand how government has been changing, where the health care debate really started and how it's been progressing. The solution is not to throw spears and accusations. And any time we consider rallying the congregation to support political reform, we'd better proceed with humility, being very, very cautious not to support the wrong idea. Christian leaders are not immune to the affliction of limited perspective leading to deception. Let's encourage Christian leaders to acknowledge that and avoid promoting things they really don't understand.
There's more to creating affordable health care than simply making new laws. It's important to look around at the things our government does. The simple fact is that anything the government does is done with much less efficiency than if it were done by private individuals & their companies. Health care used to be affordable. People mostly paid with cash, and they used insurance to cover unlikely disaster, not predictable, routine health care visits. People who couldn't afford health care were usually taken care of through charity. It was during the Nixon administration that the government started creating laws which interfered with how things were working. The more laws government has made, the worse things have gotten. This isn't because our elected representatives had bad intentions, but because they didn't foresee the unintended consequences of their new laws. And this is the theme we need to remember...unintended consequences.
All Christians would do well to review the story of Israel's demand for a king. Samuel spelled out what would happen, but the people didn't listen. They were impatient. This article tells the story from an angle most Christians have probably never considered.
Understanding these basics is key to bringing a reasoned understanding to the health care debate.
Why is it amazing? Paul murdered Christians and turned into one of the most prolific Christians writers. This is not to equate Marx with Paul, but why do we judge ANY human being? This is why so many Christians fail at practicing what the preach. Especially when it comes to health & welfare of others.
Um, who is lying about Obama Care coving abortion? Here is the video proof to that question. I guess the unborn, 80% born and newly born do not qualify as "all God's children". But no, not everyone is God's child, everyone is created in the image of God and has intrinsic value, something Liberals reject.
xfree...it sounds like you might read the Bible, perhaps, I dont know, you might even consider yourself a Christian...but for those who do call themselves Christians, the Biblical imperative to do everything possible to ensure the well being of your neighbor is pretty clear. Even if it means that you have fewer goats, or less grain. Consider the early Christian communities as a base example; they held all property in community and no one lacked for anything. The health care reform that is proposed is light years away from such a community, merely pointed in that direction. So which one of your possesions is so very important to you that you are unwilling to part with it in order to help your neighbor who has a sick child?
Pastor Carlos perhaps for your own sake you should consider giving XFree an apology . You realize I am sure that you or XFree have no moral basis for REACHING HEAVEN . That if it was left up to our own works we will all end up in Hell .
So perhaps explaining why your solution would help more people and NOT hurt more in the long run would;d perhaps be a better method ?
You do realize Jesus never spoke to us about joining in with Rome for a health care plan . I am sure if Rome did offer one, many Christians might have a problem with it because of the other policies Rome supported ?
XFree view point of free markets place and less government is seen as aplus in all our lives . As Christians we should be able to respect that view .Just as I totally respect and was leaning towards more government involvement in the solution . But one of the problems that did bother my conscience was perhaps what it could lead to in what has become more culturally acceptable in our culture . To another that conscience could be bothered by a government who takes something from one person and gives it to another . To them that may be stealing .
Good book ondifferent view points is the Book of Romans . I am sure you have read it , perhaps a re do is in order my brother and apply it to others whose conscience is different then yours on these matters ? I myself am totally confused . ;0)
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I accept that I do not have all the answers. I was not bashing anyones morals, rather responding to the conversation based on Wallis post/interview regarding this debate being about values or morals, more specifically, religious ones. On that point, I believe the Biblical commentary is fairly clear, and as I understand them, the Torah and Koran as well.
I too am wary of government involvement, but I believe the comparison of US and Rome goes only so far...for one thing, we have a say in how our government operates, the laws it makes, the actions it takes. I dont believe the average citizen in Rome could speak out against Caesar (not without fear of punishment) nor could they have any impact on the laws that were made. So is there a way we can work with a flawed system to make postive changes that allows the least of these a chance at wellness? It is my belief that we can and are compelled by the words and actions of Jesus. I believe it IS God's wish/will that those who have much would share with those who have little.
I too am wary of government involvement, but at this point, it seems to be the way to have the greatest positive impact for the most people. I have not seen or heard of a better method of delivery. It would be a joyous thing if the religious communities of our country could rise to the occasion, but I just dont forsee that happening. I am gladdened to see the rise in ecumenical cooperation; that I believe is witness to the in-breaking of the kingdom of God.
In regards to possessions and my comments there; I apologize. Mine is not to judge nor do I have any idea what xfree charitable heart is like. I'm sorry for that.
I agree. If we don't look at the ethical issues associated with taxes and how government decisions are made, then the perspective is skewed. Money doesn't come from thin air.
Would it be right to enslave 40% of Americans, forcing them to work on behalf of the other 60%?
So, what is true Kingdom practice? To protect those who have more than they need from the neighbors who need? I don't recall Jesus ever protecting the rights or needs of the comfortable. The beatitudes call us to humility, meekness, peacemaking and mourning. They don't call us to be priveleged and constantly calling our for our "rights". Jesus never said to comfort and protect the comfortable; they will always get theirs.
Frankly, this is why our country is so now so polarized. Everybody wants to stake his claim to a certain position, and then use Scripture to back it up. The Religious Right, Sojo, Libertarians, liberation theology, etc. all want a stake in what they believe is "right." In Africa and other areas of the developing world, Christians are carrying out the words of Philippians 2: to look after the needs of others before themselves. The Libertarian viewpoint is just the opposite: lets get ours first, and then look after the needs of others later if we get around to it. But don't anyone tell me what to do with MY money, because it's mine, all mine.
Jim,
In all of politics, there is lying on both sides of any debate. What I hope everyone can do is get past accusing each other of lying and sincerely try to perceive the truth. An essential ingredient here is admitting to ourselves that our perspective is limited, and therefore subject to deception. If we can't admit that, we are guilty of the judgment Jesus spoke of.
Everyone agrees, there is a moral issue in health care debate. If it weren't for all the deception and misinformation, there would be no debate. Where does the deception start? In school. The way history and economics have been taught in the majority of schools (k-12 and beyond) for the last 70 years has led to the deception of major blocks of the populace. As a result, I'm afraid the vast majority of Americans (Christians included) simply don't understand how government has been changing, where the health care debate really started and how it's been progressing. The solution is not to throw spears and accusations. And any time we consider rallying the congregation to support political reform, we'd better proceed with humility, being very, very cautious not to support the wrong idea. Christian leaders are not immune to the affliction of limited perspective leading to deception. Let's encourage Christian leaders to acknowledge that and avoid promoting things they really don't understand.
There's more to creating affordable health care than simply making new laws. It's important to look around at the things our government does. The simple fact is that anything the government does is done with much less efficiency than if it were done by private individuals & their companies. Health care used to be affordable. People mostly paid with cash, and they used insurance to cover unlikely disaster, not predictable, routine health care visits. People who couldn't afford health care were usually taken care of through charity. It was during the Nixon administration that the government started creating laws which interfered with how things were working. The more laws government has made, the worse things have gotten. This isn't because our elected representatives had bad intentions, but because they didn't foresee the unintended consequences of their new laws. And this is the theme we need to remember...unintended consequences.
All Christians would do well to review the story of Israel's demand for a king. Samuel spelled out what would happen, but the people didn't listen. They were impatient. This article tells the story from an angle most Christians have probably never considered.
Understanding these basics is key to bringing a reasoned understanding to the health care debate.
Who is taking who's property? This is about giving those less fortunate an option to access affordable healthcare. It's giving mercy where it is needed. And if reform doesn't happen, then the general public will pay for it anyway, through rising premiums and taxes due to emergency room visits that cannot be paid for by underinsured. Would you rather they die in the streets? man, money and possessions have really corrupted some people....
You cannot serve God and mammon.
Why is it amazing? Paul murdered Christians and turned into one of the most prolific Christians writers. This is not to equate Marx with Paul, but why do we judge ANY human being? This is why so many Christians fail at practicing what the preach. Especially when it comes to health & welfare of others.
xfree...it sounds like you might read the Bible, perhaps, I dont know, you might even consider yourself a Christian...but for those who do call themselves Christians, the Biblical imperative to do everything possible to ensure the well being of your neighbor is pretty clear. Even if it means that you have fewer goats, or less grain. Consider the early Christian communities as a base example; they held all property in community and no one lacked for anything. The health care reform that is proposed is light years away from such a community, merely pointed in that direction. So which one of your possesions is so very important to you that you are unwilling to part with it in order to help your neighbor who has a sick child?
Pastor Carlos perhaps for your own sake you should consider giving XFree an apology . You realize I am sure that you or XFree have no moral basis for REACHING HEAVEN . That if it was left up to our own works we will all end up in Hell .
So perhaps explaining why your solution would help more people and NOT hurt more in the long run would;d perhaps be a better method ?
You do realize Jesus never spoke to us about joining in with Rome for a health care plan . I am sure if Rome did offer one, many Christians might have a problem with it because of the other policies Rome supported ?
XFree view point of free markets place and less government is seen as aplus in all our lives . As Christians we should be able to respect that view .Just as I totally respect and was leaning towards more government involvement in the solution . But one of the problems that did bother my conscience was perhaps what it could lead to in what has become more culturally acceptable in our culture . To another that conscience could be bothered by a government who takes something from one person and gives it to another . To them that may be stealing .
Good book ondifferent view points is the Book of Romans . I am sure you have read it , perhaps a re do is in order my brother and apply it to others whose conscience is different then yours on these matters ? I myself am totally confused . ;0)
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I accept that I do not have all the answers. I was not bashing anyones morals, rather responding to the conversation based on Wallis post/interview regarding this debate being about values or morals, more specifically, religious ones. On that point, I believe the Biblical commentary is fairly clear, and as I understand them, the Torah and Koran as well.
I too am wary of government involvement, but I believe the comparison of US and Rome goes only so far...for one thing, we have a say in how our government operates, the laws it makes, the actions it takes. I dont believe the average citizen in Rome could speak out against Caesar (not without fear of punishment) nor could they have any impact on the laws that were made. So is there a way we can work with a flawed system to make postive changes that allows the least of these a chance at wellness? It is my belief that we can and are compelled by the words and actions of Jesus. I believe it IS God's wish/will that those who have much would share with those who have little.
I too am wary of government involvement, but at this point, it seems to be the way to have the greatest positive impact for the most people. I have not seen or heard of a better method of delivery. It would be a joyous thing if the religious communities of our country could rise to the occasion, but I just dont forsee that happening. I am gladdened to see the rise in ecumenical cooperation; that I believe is witness to the in-breaking of the kingdom of God.
In regards to possessions and my comments there; I apologize. Mine is not to judge nor do I have any idea what xfree charitable heart is like. I'm sorry for that.
Who is taking who's property? This is about giving those less fortunate an option to access affordable healthcare. It's giving mercy where it is needed. And if reform doesn't happen, then the general public will pay for it anyway, through rising premiums and taxes due to emergency room visits that cannot be paid for by underinsured. Would you rather they die in the streets? man, money and possessions have really corrupted some people....
You cannot serve God and mammon.
pastorcarlos,
Thank you for your well thought out response . I would agree with your points about Rome and the United States also . I used the anology because that was the government at the time Christ walked the earth . But just the same pastor , I have heard many people ridicule the United States here and other places who support this bill . I do not believe the US is perfect , but I still believe we are the best civic hope of the Free world , warts and all . But why do so many people who ridicule this country feell government healtcare is the only option ? I like the idea of a mixed system myself , witht he benefits of the free market and the security of making sure even the poor are cared for.
Even the non Christian has been effected say by the Reformation in regards to our cultural morality to some extent . And yes if I would name two things from the Torah that were hammered into my head , it was Helping the poor and staying away from idols .
I was only speaking to saying a person seemed not to be a Christian if he did not support government run health care was inappropriate, even hurtful . Which opinion I had on the subject seemed not important . But I do not agree with XFree on some of his political viewpoints , he is a liberaterian .
pastorcarlos,
Thank you for your well thought out response . I would agree with your points about Rome and the United States also . I used the anology because that was the government at the time Christ walked the earth . But just the same pastor , I have heard many people ridicule the United States here and other places who support this bill . I do not believe the US is perfect , but I still believe we are the best civic hope of the Free world , warts and all . But why do so many people who ridicule this country feell government healtcare is the only option ? I like the idea of a mixed system myself , witht he benefits of the free market and the security of making sure even the poor are cared for.
Even the non Christian has been effected say by the Reformation in regards to our cultural morality to some extent . And yes if I would name two things from the Torah that were hammered into my head , it was Helping the poor and staying away from idols .
I was only speaking to saying a person seemed not to be a Christian if he did not support government run health care was inappropriate, even hurtful . Which opinion I had on the subject seemed not important . But I do not agree with XFree on some of his political viewpoints , he is a liberaterian .
Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.
This sounds to me like one group of people looking at their neighbor in need, and then taking the money from their other neighbor who has more than he needs, and using it for their good. If it isn't ethical to do it on our own, it's not ethical to do it with the power of the State. That is not true Kingdom practice.
This sounds to me like one group of people looking at their neighbor in need, and then taking the money from their other neighbor who has more than he needs, and using it for their good. If it isn't ethical to do it on our own, it's not ethical to do it with the power of the State. That is not true Kingdom practice.
Like it or not, your tax dollars have always been spent on other people besides yourself. Your tax dollars will always been spent on other people. There's no getting around it. Name a single time in this country since federal taxes started to be collected that your tax dollar was not spent on someone else or on all citizens equally.
Like it or not, your tax dollars have always been spent on other people besides yourself. Your tax dollars will always been spent on other people. There's no getting around it. Name a single time in this country since federal taxes started to be collected that your tax dollar was not spent on someone else or on all citizens equally.
If tax dollars were being spent to protect all of us equally, such as police protection or legal protection or military protection, sure. And those are taxes. But for a tax to specifically be levied against a specific group of people to help another group of people I do not find to be morally right.
If tax dollars were being spent to protect all of us equally, such as police protection or legal protection or military protection, sure. And those are taxes. But for a tax to specifically be levied against a specific group of people to help another group of people I do not find to be morally right.
Um, who is lying about Obama Care coving abortion? Here is the video proof to that question. I guess the unborn, 80% born and newly born do not qualify as "all God's children". But no, not everyone is God's child, everyone is created in the image of God and has intrinsic value, something Liberals reject.
Um, who is lying about Obama Care coving abortion? Here is the video proof to that question. I guess the unborn, 80% born and newly born do not qualify as "all God's children". But no, not everyone is God's child, everyone is created in the image of God and has intrinsic value, something Liberals reject.
I agree. If we don't look at the ethical issues associated with taxes and how government decisions are made, then the perspective is skewed. Money doesn't come from thin air.
Would it be right to enslave 40% of Americans, forcing them to work on behalf of the other 60%?
I agree. If we don't look at the ethical issues associated with taxes and how government decisions are made, then the perspective is skewed. Money doesn't come from thin air.
Would it be right to enslave 40% of Americans, forcing them to work on behalf of the other 60%?
So, what is true Kingdom practice? To protect those who have more than they need from the neighbors who need? I don't recall Jesus ever protecting the rights or needs of the comfortable. The beatitudes call us to humility, meekness, peacemaking and mourning. They don't call us to be priveleged and constantly calling our for our "rights". Jesus never said to comfort and protect the comfortable; they will always get theirs.
Frankly, this is why our country is so now so polarized. Everybody wants to stake his claim to a certain position, and then use Scripture to back it up. The Religious Right, Sojo, Libertarians, liberation theology, etc. all want a stake in what they believe is "right." In Africa and other areas of the developing world, Christians are carrying out the words of Philippians 2: to look after the needs of others before themselves. The Libertarian viewpoint is just the opposite: lets get ours first, and then look after the needs of others later if we get around to it. But don't anyone tell me what to do with MY money, because it's mine, all mine.
So, what is true Kingdom practice? To protect those who have more than they need from the neighbors who need? I don't recall Jesus ever protecting the rights or needs of the comfortable. The beatitudes call us to humility, meekness, peacemaking and mourning. They don't call us to be priveleged and constantly calling our for our "rights". Jesus never said to comfort and protect the comfortable; they will always get theirs.
Frankly, this is why our country is so now so polarized. Everybody wants to stake his claim to a certain position, and then use Scripture to back it up. The Religious Right, Sojo, Libertarians, liberation theology, etc. all want a stake in what they believe is "right." In Africa and other areas of the developing world, Christians are carrying out the words of Philippians 2: to look after the needs of others before themselves. The Libertarian viewpoint is just the opposite: lets get ours first, and then look after the needs of others later if we get around to it. But don't anyone tell me what to do with MY money, because it's mine, all mine.
Jim,
In all of politics, there is lying on both sides of any debate. What I hope everyone can do is get past accusing each other of lying and sincerely try to perceive the truth. An essential ingredient here is admitting to ourselves that our perspective is limited, and therefore subject to deception. If we can't admit that, we are guilty of the judgment Jesus spoke of.
Everyone agrees, there is a moral issue in health care debate. If it weren't for all the deception and misinformation, there would be no debate. Where does the deception start? In school. The way history and economics have been taught in the majority of schools (k-12 and beyond) for the last 70 years has led to the deception of major blocks of the populace. As a result, I'm afraid the vast majority of Americans (Christians included) simply don't understand how government has been changing, where the health care debate really started and how it's been progressing. The solution is not to throw spears and accusations. And any time we consider rallying the congregation to support political reform, we'd better proceed with humility, being very, very cautious not to support the wrong idea. Christian leaders are not immune to the affliction of limited perspective leading to deception. Let's encourage Christian leaders to acknowledge that and avoid promoting things they really don't understand.
There's more to creating affordable health care than simply making new laws. It's important to look around at the things our government does. The simple fact is that anything the government does is done with much less efficiency than if it were done by private individuals & their companies. Health care used to be affordable. People mostly paid with cash, and they used insurance to cover unlikely disaster, not predictable, routine health care visits. People who couldn't afford health care were usually taken care of through charity. It was during the Nixon administration that the government started creating laws which interfered with how things were working. The more laws government has made, the worse things have gotten. This isn't because our elected representatives had bad intentions, but because they didn't foresee the unintended consequences of their new laws. And this is the theme we need to remember...unintended consequences.
All Christians would do well to review the story of Israel's demand for a king. Samuel spelled out what would happen, but the people didn't listen. They were impatient. This article tells the story from an angle most Christians have probably never considered.
Understanding these basics is key to bringing a reasoned understanding to the health care debate.
Jim,
In all of politics, there is lying on both sides of any debate. What I hope everyone can do is get past accusing each other of lying and sincerely try to perceive the truth. An essential ingredient here is admitting to ourselves that our perspective is limited, and therefore subject to deception. If we can't admit that, we are guilty of the judgment Jesus spoke of.
Everyone agrees, there is a moral issue in health care debate. If it weren't for all the deception and misinformation, there would be no debate. Where does the deception start? In school. The way history and economics have been taught in the majority of schools (k-12 and beyond) for the last 70 years has led to the deception of major blocks of the populace. As a result, I'm afraid the vast majority of Americans (Christians included) simply don't understand how government has been changing, where the health care debate really started and how it's been progressing. The solution is not to throw spears and accusations. And any time we consider rallying the congregation to support political reform, we'd better proceed with humility, being very, very cautious not to support the wrong idea. Christian leaders are not immune to the affliction of limited perspective leading to deception. Let's encourage Christian leaders to acknowledge that and avoid promoting things they really don't understand.
There's more to creating affordable health care than simply making new laws. It's important to look around at the things our government does. The simple fact is that anything the government does is done with much less efficiency than if it were done by private individuals & their companies. Health care used to be affordable. People mostly paid with cash, and they used insurance to cover unlikely disaster, not predictable, routine health care visits. People who couldn't afford health care were usually taken care of through charity. It was during the Nixon administration that the government started creating laws which interfered with how things were working. The more laws government has made, the worse things have gotten. This isn't because our elected representatives had bad intentions, but because they didn't foresee the unintended consequences of their new laws. And this is the theme we need to remember...unintended consequences.
All Christians would do well to review the story of Israel's demand for a king. Samuel spelled out what would happen, but the people didn't listen. They were impatient. This article tells the story from an angle most Christians have probably never considered.
Understanding these basics is key to bringing a reasoned understanding to the health care debate.
Why is it amazing? Paul murdered Christians and turned into one of the most prolific Christians writers. This is not to equate Marx with Paul, but why do we judge ANY human being? This is why so many Christians fail at practicing what the preach. Especially when it comes to health & welfare of others.
Why is it amazing? Paul murdered Christians and turned into one of the most prolific Christians writers. This is not to equate Marx with Paul, but why do we judge ANY human being? This is why so many Christians fail at practicing what the preach. Especially when it comes to health & welfare of others.
xfree...it sounds like you might read the Bible, perhaps, I dont know, you might even consider yourself a Christian...but for those who do call themselves Christians, the Biblical imperative to do everything possible to ensure the well being of your neighbor is pretty clear. Even if it means that you have fewer goats, or less grain. Consider the early Christian communities as a base example; they held all property in community and no one lacked for anything. The health care reform that is proposed is light years away from such a community, merely pointed in that direction. So which one of your possesions is so very important to you that you are unwilling to part with it in order to help your neighbor who has a sick child?
xfree...it sounds like you might read the Bible, perhaps, I dont know, you might even consider yourself a Christian...but for those who do call themselves Christians, the Biblical imperative to do everything possible to ensure the well being of your neighbor is pretty clear. Even if it means that you have fewer goats, or less grain. Consider the early Christian communities as a base example; they held all property in community and no one lacked for anything. The health care reform that is proposed is light years away from such a community, merely pointed in that direction. So which one of your possesions is so very important to you that you are unwilling to part with it in order to help your neighbor who has a sick child?
Pastor Carlos perhaps for your own sake you should consider giving XFree an apology . You realize I am sure that you or XFree have no moral basis for REACHING HEAVEN . That if it was left up to our own works we will all end up in Hell .
So perhaps explaining why your solution would help more people and NOT hurt more in the long run would;d perhaps be a better method ?
You do realize Jesus never spoke to us about joining in with Rome for a health care plan . I am sure if Rome did offer one, many Christians might have a problem with it because of the other policies Rome supported ?
XFree view point of free markets place and less government is seen as aplus in all our lives . As Christians we should be able to respect that view .Just as I totally respect and was leaning towards more government involvement in the solution . But one of the problems that did bother my conscience was perhaps what it could lead to in what has become more culturally acceptable in our culture . To another that conscience could be bothered by a government who takes something from one person and gives it to another . To them that may be stealing .
Good book ondifferent view points is the Book of Romans . I am sure you have read it , perhaps a re do is in order my brother and apply it to others whose conscience is different then yours on these matters ? I myself am totally confused . ;0)
Pastor Carlos perhaps for your own sake you should consider giving XFree an apology . You realize I am sure that you or XFree have no moral basis for REACHING HEAVEN . That if it was left up to our own works we will all end up in Hell .
So perhaps explaining why your solution would help more people and NOT hurt more in the long run would;d perhaps be a better method ?
You do realize Jesus never spoke to us about joining in with Rome for a health care plan . I am sure if Rome did offer one, many Christians might have a problem with it because of the other policies Rome supported ?
XFree view point of free markets place and less government is seen as aplus in all our lives . As Christians we should be able to respect that view .Just as I totally respect and was leaning towards more government involvement in the solution . But one of the problems that did bother my conscience was perhaps what it could lead to in what has become more culturally acceptable in our culture . To another that conscience could be bothered by a government who takes something from one person and gives it to another . To them that may be stealing .
Good book ondifferent view points is the Book of Romans . I am sure you have read it , perhaps a re do is in order my brother and apply it to others whose conscience is different then yours on these matters ? I myself am totally confused . ;0)
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I accept that I do not have all the answers. I was not bashing anyones morals, rather responding to the conversation based on Wallis post/interview regarding this debate being about values or morals, more specifically, religious ones. On that point, I believe the Biblical commentary is fairly clear, and as I understand them, the Torah and Koran as well.
I too am wary of government involvement, but I believe the comparison of US and Rome goes only so far...for one thing, we have a say in how our government operates, the laws it makes, the actions it takes. I dont believe the average citizen in Rome could speak out against Caesar (not without fear of punishment) nor could they have any impact on the laws that were made. So is there a way we can work with a flawed system to make postive changes that allows the least of these a chance at wellness? It is my belief that we can and are compelled by the words and actions of Jesus. I believe it IS God's wish/will that those who have much would share with those who have little.
I too am wary of government involvement, but at this point, it seems to be the way to have the greatest positive impact for the most people. I have not seen or heard of a better method of delivery. It would be a joyous thing if the religious communities of our country could rise to the occasion, but I just dont forsee that happening. I am gladdened to see the rise in ecumenical cooperation; that I believe is witness to the in-breaking of the kingdom of God.
In regards to possessions and my comments there; I apologize. Mine is not to judge nor do I have any idea what xfree charitable heart is like. I'm sorry for that.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and I accept that I do not have all the answers. I was not bashing anyones morals, rather responding to the conversation based on Wallis post/interview regarding this debate being about values or morals, more specifically, religious ones. On that point, I believe the Biblical commentary is fairly clear, and as I understand them, the Torah and Koran as well.
I too am wary of government involvement, but I believe the comparison of US and Rome goes only so far...for one thing, we have a say in how our government operates, the laws it makes, the actions it takes. I dont believe the average citizen in Rome could speak out against Caesar (not without fear of punishment) nor could they have any impact on the laws that were made. So is there a way we can work with a flawed system to make postive changes that allows the least of these a chance at wellness? It is my belief that we can and are compelled by the words and actions of Jesus. I believe it IS God's wish/will that those who have much would share with those who have little.
I too am wary of government involvement, but at this point, it seems to be the way to have the greatest positive impact for the most people. I have not seen or heard of a better method of delivery. It would be a joyous thing if the religious communities of our country could rise to the occasion, but I just dont forsee that happening. I am gladdened to see the rise in ecumenical cooperation; that I believe is witness to the in-breaking of the kingdom of God.
In regards to possessions and my comments there; I apologize. Mine is not to judge nor do I have any idea what xfree charitable heart is like. I'm sorry for that.
Who is taking who's property? This is about giving those less fortunate an option to access affordable healthcare. It's giving mercy where it is needed. And if reform doesn't happen, then the general public will pay for it anyway, through rising premiums and taxes due to emergency room visits that cannot be paid for by underinsured. Would you rather they die in the streets? man, money and possessions have really corrupted some people....
You cannot serve God and mammon.
Who is taking who's property? This is about giving those less fortunate an option to access affordable healthcare. It's giving mercy where it is needed. And if reform doesn't happen, then the general public will pay for it anyway, through rising premiums and taxes due to emergency room visits that cannot be paid for by underinsured. Would you rather they die in the streets? man, money and possessions have really corrupted some people....
You cannot serve God and mammon.
pastorcarlos,
Thank you for your well thought out response . I would agree with your points about Rome and the United States also . I used the anology because that was the government at the time Christ walked the earth . But just the same pastor , I have heard many people ridicule the United States here and other places who support this bill . I do not believe the US is perfect , but I still believe we are the best civic hope of the Free world , warts and all . But why do so many people who ridicule this country feell government healtcare is the only option ? I like the idea of a mixed system myself , witht he benefits of the free market and the security of making sure even the poor are cared for.
Even the non Christian has been effected say by the Reformation in regards to our cultural morality to some extent . And yes if I would name two things from the Torah that were hammered into my head , it was Helping the poor and staying away from idols .
I was only speaking to saying a person seemed not to be a Christian if he did not support government run health care was inappropriate, even hurtful . Which opinion I had on the subject seemed not important . But I do not agree with XFree on some of his political viewpoints , he is a liberaterian .
pastorcarlos,
Thank you for your well thought out response . I would agree with your points about Rome and the United States also . I used the anology because that was the government at the time Christ walked the earth . But just the same pastor , I have heard many people ridicule the United States here and other places who support this bill . I do not believe the US is perfect , but I still believe we are the best civic hope of the Free world , warts and all . But why do so many people who ridicule this country feell government healtcare is the only option ? I like the idea of a mixed system myself , witht he benefits of the free market and the security of making sure even the poor are cared for.
Even the non Christian has been effected say by the Reformation in regards to our cultural morality to some extent . And yes if I would name two things from the Torah that were hammered into my head , it was Helping the poor and staying away from idols .
I was only speaking to saying a person seemed not to be a Christian if he did not support government run health care was inappropriate, even hurtful . Which opinion I had on the subject seemed not important . But I do not agree with XFree on some of his political viewpoints , he is a liberaterian .
I heard this interview on MSNBC and when Jim ended it in talking about Jesus healing people and not for profit. No, Jesus did not do His work for profit. Jim, what about you? Do you sell your "best-selling" books or give them away? Do you charge a fee for speaking engagements or travel to share Christ's teachings for free? Jesus did not charge to deliver the Sermon on the Mount, so I hope you follow those same ethical standards in your delivery of His message as you expect doctors, nurses and all other medical care workers and companies to perform their jobs not for profit.
I heard this interview on MSNBC and when Jim ended it in talking about Jesus healing people and not for profit. No, Jesus did not do His work for profit. Jim, what about you? Do you sell your "best-selling" books or give them away? Do you charge a fee for speaking engagements or travel to share Christ's teachings for free? Jesus did not charge to deliver the Sermon on the Mount, so I hope you follow those same ethical standards in your delivery of His message as you expect doctors, nurses and all other medical care workers and companies to perform their jobs not for profit.
Top Blog Posts
- The Bait and Switch of Contemporary Christianity
- Christian 'Exorcism' Leads to Gay Teen's Suicide
- He Said, She Said: Driscoll's "Real Marriage" is Really Not
- Racial Jeopardy and American Politics
- Viral: "Why I Hate Religion But Love Jesus"
- He Said, She Said: Driscoll's "Real Marriage" is Really Not
- God, PBS and Paul Simon, The "God Chronicler By Accident"
- The Bait and Switch of Contemporary Christianity
- Defining "Evangelical" and Other Unsolved Mysteries
by Alec Hill 02-08-2012
by David Gibson 02-07-2012
by Nadia Bolz-Weber 02-12-2012
Blog Tag Cloud
Activism
America
Bible
change
Children
Christ
Christian
Church
Community
Culture
Economics
Environment
Evangelical
Faith
Faith and Politics
general
global issues
government
Human Rights
Immigration
Jesus
Justice
Ministry
Nonviolence
Peace
Politics
Poor
Poverty
Prayer
President
President Obama
Race
Religion
Sojourners
Spirituality
Theology
United States
Violence
War
Women
More On These Topics
