Video: Jim Wallis Takes the Health-Care Debate to Fox

What about the moral core of taking money from other groups of people and giving it to yours? How at all is that Kingdom ethics?

Seems to me the Christian way, at least, is to share and care for the "least of these."

xfree9 - I'm not sure what your concern is, but it sounds like you're worried that for-profit insurance companies will suffer financially if not-for-profit insurance options become more readily available. We're not talking about cars, furniture, clothing or TV's here ... we're talking about health-care; a life and death issue and, increasingly, an issue that directly affects the economic viability of the country as a whole (more than 60% of personal bankruptcies last year were directly related to health-care costs; 75% of those filing for personal bankruptcy had health insurance). I don't hear the same concern about public education driving private schools out of business - why is it so difficult to apply the same logic to an issue as fundamental to the nation's well-being and productivity as accessible healthcare? I'm going to make a couple of assumptions here - one, that you're a Christian and two, that I've understood your comment correctly - and ask you this question: how, as a Christian, can you imply that profit margins take priority over the basic well-being of our brothers and sisters?

um where does he ever mention health insurance companies. Maybe one should look beyond the obviouse lies. there is no discussion on your side about REFORM. the bill"s do not contain REFORM the contain a government take over of our health care. Please explain how one is caring about the system and us when it about taking over the system. if you read between the lies i mean lines, yhour know everything obama says is the same things, he says your wrong its not in there, what your afraid of is all misconceptions please trust me. well why not show us the pages and lines etc which prove us wrong, please explain all the peopl around you that counter what you say. All these satistics are a bit misleading. If we broke it all down, whos to say most of them are because of thier own personal problems with managing money. Its rather easy to blame someone or something and not yourself. As for profit margin, it would I am guessing go down alot if, one we have tort reform, two let us go across the country for insurance and three be more creative with how we work our health coverages. OH BUT none of these are ever mentioned in the bills. So how as a christian can you let a government take control of your life so easily. socialism is evil.

I'm unable to respond to your comments in a more fullsome manner because, for the most part, they are indecipherable. The last two sentences, however, I understand. In a democracy, government is not some evil entity that resides outside of the populace - it is, in fact, "of the people, for the people". If you are an American citizen, you are afforded every opportunity to participate fully in the formation and business of government. Secondly, does publicly funded education equate with socialism? Do publicly managed highways? How about the FDA? And who/what exactly has determined that "socialism" is evil? Is it any more evil than capitalism? These are tired cliches that have more to do with American culture than any basis in scripture.

True indeed. Christians should care for "the least of these." The question is whether a government-run solution will do that. A look at the history of socialized medicine in many, many countries around the world will demonstrate conclusively that government-run health care will be even more inhumane that what we've already got. Really, we don't even have to look at other countries to see what will happen. Just look at the elements of socialized medicine which began around the time Nixon was in office...medicare & medicaid. Prior to that time, health care was more affordable and "the least of these" were often cared for via charity, not insurance.

liastar - To gain a better understanding of government & socialism vs freedom & capitalism, please remember the story of when Israel demanded a king. Samuel warned them clearly what would happen, but the people were impatient and insistent. It says Solomon's servants lacked nothing. But if you read more carefully, you learn that Solomon taxed the people very heavily. The opulence of Solomon's kingdom represented the poverty of his people. Solomon's wisdom was in his ability to grow the bureaucracy, reduce the destructiveness of war and maintain control...largely through bribes. When Solomon's son took the reins, the people desperately pleaded with him to lighten their load. He bluntly and arrogantly refused. So...when the tax collector came around to collect taxes, the people stoned him to death.

Begin studying socialism, and you will learn that it basically represents the opposite of everything Jesus represents. Jesus said, "my yoke is easy, my burden is light." "Where I am, there is freedom."

Yes, WE, not our government, should care for the poor and help them get the health care they need. Asking the government to do this for us will only invite the inefficiencies of bureaucracy, which will inevitably prevent us from delivering health care to those who can least afford it.

These same principles apply in a fascinating way to church government as well as state government. Think about it.

The health care system does indeed need to be fixed, but we can't do that unless we understand how we got to where we are now. America's health care has been growing more and more problematic ever since the creation of Medicare and Medicaid.

People are hurting, and if the poor aren't getting the care they need, the church should take responsibility, rather than demanding that the government do it. But unfortunately, most organized religious groups today are more interested in raising money to build new buildings and pay salaries than care for the needy.

When church leaders demand that the government step in to fix health care, they unfortunately demonstrate naivety as to what governments are, the history of governments and the track record of government-run health care in many countries over the last 100 years. Just look at the history of Soviet health care. Less than 3 years after the inception of the fully government-run system, in the 1920's, government leaders discovered the system was OK for the people running the system, but terrible if they personally needed health care. As a result, a dual system was setup so the bureaucrats could have higher quality health care than the masses.

So you are against Medicare, Medicaid, Disability assistance, welfare, and U.S. aid to third world countries? Did you protest when George W. Bush TRIPLES U.S. Aid to Africa during his administration? That's taking your tax dollars and giving it to another group of people. Did you protest when that happened? Or were you silent? Was that wrong? Was that against Kingdom ethics? My opinion is that it wasn't.

Not everyone has a child. Yet everyone's taxes go toward education. Are you against that? Where is your protest? What about the Farm Bill? Are you against the Farm Bill? Where is your protest? What about the tax dollars that are used to give our military the "finest" health insurance money can buy (as Bill Krystal said)? That's your tax dollar being used to give another group of people healthcare. Where is your protest? Or have you been silent on that issue as well? Is that Kingdom ethics?

The road to hell IS paved with good intentions. Utopian idealists generally bring great evil. They don't mean to; it just turns out that way.

Which entails taking from others, and giving to yet others? What is the scriptural basis for what I have just described. Assume, for a second, that I am familiar with what Christ has to say about the least of these.

"but it sounds like you're worried that for-profit insurance companies will suffer financially if not-for-profit insurance options become more readily available."

Really? You got that from his post? Interesting.

"We're not talking about cars, furniture, clothing or TV's here ... we're talking about health-care;"

Okay. But the success of the health care, at present, relies upon the success of the other industries you describe, for a variety of reasons.

"I don't hear the same concern about public education driving private schools out of business"

I do. Add to that charter schools and (especially) home schools. Further, public schools have somehow become the primary educational resource for the majority of students. Also, public schools in this country are awful. I'd choose a better example if I were you,

"I'm going to make a couple of assumptions here - one, that you're a Christian and two, that I've understood your comment correctly"

Your second assumption is ridiculous, but I'll also let Xfree speak for himself.

"and ask you this question: how, as a Christian, can you imply that profit margins take priority over the basic well-being of our brothers and sisters? "

I am going to ask you a question, and ask you to answer without the use of Google. What do believe to be the profit margin in numerical terms, as a percentage of revenue, of the average insurer? I'm genuinely curious.

In the kingdom Solomon established he ruled absolutely - there was no system of government in place that allowed for checks and balances and there was no way for the populace to represent their own interests. This is very different from the system in place in the US today.

*yawn*

Actually I have looked at other countries--England, Canada and Japan, to be specific--and what you say just isn't true. A friend who moved back her three years ago from Britian with her husband and two young children says she would take the British system in a heartbeat--and she is covered by employer's insurance here. I have many friends who are either legal aliens, naturalized U.S. citizens from Europe or Asia or Americans who have lived overseas.All are well-educated professional people and several are politically conservative. But none of them can believe that people in the U.S. oppose a government-run health care system for all.

What exactly do you mean by "other groups" and "yours?"

Great response, adamnewby. Very good points. Thank you.

Same here, bluejayjackie...my niece lived for years in England and just moved back. She was covered there, but not in the land of her birth. Weird.
My Canadian friends are really annoyed at the lies being thrown around about their health care system.

Blujayjackie is caring for the least of these include mercy killing ? In Oregon and Washington (the only states with a law permitting assisted suicide), Medicaid pays for assisted suicide for poor residents under the category of "comfort care." The drugs for assisted suicide cost less than $100 - far less than medications and treatments to make patients comfortable. I am not sure labeling these "death panels" further the understanding or issues , but ignoring them and calling Christians liars is not helping . The assisted suicide law passed in my state with a large majority . But to say tax dollars are not involved in abortions and assisted suicides is just not true. .

If we are all concerned about caring for the least of these , can not we be honest with each other and work to those ends . Of course if abortion and issueslike tax payer assisted suicide do not cause your conscience to be hurt , could you acknowledge how it could hurt another believer ?

I think one believer dictating health care decisions for another is quite hurtful. I believe such things should be personal decisions between a person and God.

For a person to kill themself is one thing , to bring the state and your particpation with it as a tax payer is beyond hurtful ..

bluejayjackie & smilinmoo. My comment on England was really an invitation to begin doing some research, no claims of fact being presented. So...let's look at this a bit further.

Concerning the reported state of medical care in England and other "1st" world countries with socialized medical care, I've been learning that it's grim while you apparently have friends telling you it's better than US medical care. So...in the spirit of conducting an open-minded search for truth, I've been searching for more information.

One thing to consider is the fact that it's entirely possible for people to have dramatically different experiences within the same medical system. Who's to say your friend's experiences are typical? What we want to know is the trend.

Age discrimination is particularly apparent in all government-run or heavily regulated systems of healthcare. In England, people who are disabled or become frail at old age will quite likely be assigned to "voluntary" services, which means they are essentially ejected from the government's health care system and must pay for all health care out of pocket.

In the United Kingdom, in the treatment of chronic kidney failure, those who are 55 years old are refused treatment at 35 percent of dialysis centers. Forty-five percent of 65-year-old patients at the centers are denied treatment, while patients 75 or older rarely receive any medical attention at these centers.

In Canada, the population is divided into three age groups in terms of their access to healthcare: those below 45, those 45

I think it's important to reemphasize that Christians should be caring for those less fortunate via direct contact. To the extent that this duty/privilege is relegated to the government or any other organization, thereby adding layers of separation between Christians and those for whom their charity is intended, the care will:

1. decrease in quality, due to the inevitable, growing impersonal nature of the system
2. become more expensive, due to the inefficiencies of utilizing middle men.

Any time the people take direct responsibility in caring for the less fortunate, things go much better than if they ask their government or any other organization to do it on their behalf.

This truth can be seen in the vast majority of churches. Consider the tiny, minuscule portion of tithe money that actually goes to helping "the least of these." The money is being spent mostly on salaries and mortgage payments or saving for building projects (whether they be financed or covered with cash). Despite the rhetoric in most churches, the cash flow statement clearly demonstrates that more value is placed on building a better "church" club than on caring for the needy. The places the laity in a position of decreased connectedness with the needy and they tend to develop an "I gave at the office" mentality. As the church (referring to the people, not their "church" club) has relegated it's duty to help the poor, the government has stepped...slowly building a welfare state which can't bear up under it's own weight. And now we're doing the same with health care.

Before medicare and medicaid, things were actually better than they are now. The needy had easier access to health care because the lower costs made it possible for charity to foot the bill. And for those who weren't considered "needy", health care was overall more affordable. Insurance was less expensive, since the costs it was insuring were less, and also because insurance was generally used to cover risk of catastrophe, rather than covering predictable, routine stuff...which was paid for using cash. Most hospitals were privately owned...which meant customer satisfaction was of paramount importance to their success as a company.

But then the government started getting involved. Privately run hospitals had to hire more staff to deal properly with government regulations. Gov't regulations began to affected the decision making process for care providers. Over time, as new regulations were added, private hospitals simply couldn't compete with state-run hospitals (which weren't subject to the same regulations). As a result, the number of privately-run hospitals today is a small fraction to what it was 35 years ago.

For many years, America's health care system has been at or near the pinnacle for high quality health care in the world. This system was not the result of government management, but was the result of an absence of government interference. It wasn't until the government started to meddle in our business that things started to unravel to the point where we can all agree the system needs to be fixed.

We need to understand how we ended up where we are.

"A look at the history of socialized medicine in many, many countries around the world will demonstrate conclusively that government-run health care will be even more inhumane that what we've already got."

What an absolutely brutal assertion based on zilch documentation.