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Broken Hearts and Deep Concern for Honduras

They were a very diverse group -- students, a lawyer, Sisters of Mercy and Notre Dame, a union organizer, a teacher, survivors of the brutal 1980s in Honduras. They were young and old, women and men, poor and not so poor. They spoke from very painful, firsthand experience about beatings, rape, harassment, and intimidation -- about arbitrary arrests and disappeared friends and family. One young woman spoke -- with great difficulty -- about the assassination of her father. We (and they) were horrified by the brutality inflicted by Honduran military and police forces upon ordinary people peacefully exercising basic civil rights.

What our small delegation to Honduras heard in the past week broke our hearts and evoked in us deep concern.

It also gave us hope as we met with many sectors of Honduran society that are demonstrating amazing courage and capacity to organize a strong popular resistance to the June 28 coup and subsequent repression. Their enduring hope for a country that promotes the common good, justice, and human rights was clear.

We were alarmed to see people and patterns of abuse re-emerging from the shadows of repression in earlier decades. Impunity in the past for criminals and violators of human rights has left Hondurans vulnerable to a painful repeat of history. Militarization, disinformation, extreme attempts to control the civilian population, and a terrible polarization are taking a terrible toll on people yearning for a just end to poverty and exclusion.

In our meeting at the U.S. Embassy in Tegucigalpa we heard about the U.S. government's absolute rejection of the coup and commitment to the return of President Zelaya, but there were many rumors on the ground that the U.S. was really backing the coup. Hopefully, the U.S. response to the coup and especially to the human rights violations by official security forces will be stronger and more visible in the coming days.

We heard from many people while we were in Honduras about the deep hurt, anger, and loss of credibility occasioned by the July 3 statement of the Honduran Bishops' Conference and the subsequent silence of Cardinal Oscar Rodríguez -- even about the brutal repression of peaceful demonstrations against the coup. Despite many attempts, we were unable to secure a meeting with the cardinal to hear his perspective. At the same time, we met many priests, sisters, and pastoral workers who were accompanying the resistance movement and feeling themselves the impact of the repression.

The conflict in Honduras is not only about Mel Zelaya, although the return of the legitimate president to office is imperative, but about the abuse of political and military, and especially economic, power. The implications are serious for the future of the hemisphere or for any country in the world where the basic rights of citizens to a decent life, to a healthy environment, and to participate in important decisions that affect their lives challenge the privileges and power of a few -- be they individuals, institutions, or business interests.

Marie Dennis is the co-president of Pax Christi International. She traveled with a religious delegation to Honduras August 18-25.

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by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 8:57pm

Yep that did it for me too, Sister Marie. I was overwhelmed by the factual support of the argument.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 11:10am

So, how do you feel about the "rule of law" and illegal immigration?

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 9:34pm

I believe my Honduran aquaintence's view is supported by the majority of Hondurans. I have tried to educate myself on the issue as much as possible, and my understanding is that Zelaya went against the constitution. Perhaps the coup should have been handled better, but compared to the past there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand. Perhaps you have more factual information than me. I would be glad to hear about it, as it's the country that was home for two years and I still have fond memories of many people there.

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 10:12pm

The Democrats wanted Nixon out-- impeachment was the legal remedy. The Republicans wanted Clinton out. Impeachment was the legal remedy. When they failed, they did not call out the military.

Maybe the coup should have been handled better?! Really?!!

A good starting point of the discussion would be why constitutional remedies were not used and why the military did the job.

I am thankful for the concept of the "rule of law" and "due process." Unfortunately vigilante justice and coups d'etat don't rise to the level of either the rule of law or due process.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 11:17pm

"...there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand."
(ando commenting on the military coup that ousted Zelaya)

Extrajudicial executions that have been attributed to the de facto Micheletti government include:
1. 19 year-old Isis Obed Murillo Mencias, shot in the head on 5 July by soldiers when Zelaya's plane was trying to land at Toncontin Airport.
2. Roger Iván Bados, former union leader, member of the Democratic Unification Party and Bloque Popular, shot dead on 11 July while entering his home in San Pedro Sula.
3. 40 year-old campesino leader and Democratic Unification Party member Ramón García on 12 July, after he was forced by unknown people to get off a bus.
4. 23 year-old Pedro Magdiel Muñoz Salvador, detained by police during anti-coup protests and taken to an El Paraíso police station on 24 July, and found at 6:30 am the following morning with 42 stab wounds[118][119][120]; 38 year-old high school teacher Roger Abraham Vallejo Soriano, shot in the head by security forces during protests on 31 July, died on 1 August.
5. school teacher Martin Florencio Rivera, killed on 2 August as he left the mourning procession for Roger Vallejo, stabbed 27 times.

If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 11:31pm

"If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure."

Why put words in my mouth?! I didn't say I admired the system. Apparently you admire Zelaya. After all, he's a Leftist in the mold Chavez and Castro. You apparently don't know much about Central American history, either. I lived there in the 1980s and was checked at gun point a number of times by the Honduran military. It was even worse in Nicaragua and El Salvador. We couldn't travel there. In Guatemala both the military death squads and the guerrillas were killing thousands of people. This is nothing like those times. You WILL see an election in November. Micheletti is from the same Liberales party as Zelaya. The former doesn't want to be president, from all indications.
Why do you think the Obama administration hasn't done more to reinstate Zelaya? Because they know the score.
If you're the type who admires Left-wing dictatorships, that's fine. Why don't you fly down and join the protesters? Put a Chavez picture on it. Just Don't count me in.

by: SisterMarie

08-28-2009 @ 12:09am

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never wrote anywhere that I admire Castro or Chavez. What I do respect is the rule of law. Military coups are wrong whether they are carried out by left-wing or by right-wing groups.

There's a process that's called elections. You may not always agree with the outcome, but (small d) democrats still embrace them

Why do I think that Obama has not done more to reinstate Zelaya? Since I'm not a part of his NSC, I don't really know, but I would guess that having inherited two wars from his predecessor, that he has no intention of getting American fighting men and women into another war.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 4:59pm

Actually I live in Honduras. I am located in San Pedro Sula and no not even the OAS has attributed the deaths to the military. There were four possibly related to the uprisings. No fault was implied. Furthermore, I noticed you said Martin Florencio Rivera and even his family said his death had nothing to do with the crisis. He was killed over a debt. Simply being for the resistence and getting killed in Honduras doesn´t mean anything. In Honduras, there are more than 12 murders every day that have zero to do with the government or military. However, it is believed that Zelaya was behind the murder of the vice president of Congress during the campaign season because he was on Micheletti´s campaign ticket last year and spoke out about the corruption in the Zelaya administration.
El Paraiso has not been attributed either...in fact the two murders are assumed to have been done by the same person because of the blade being the same and with the latter being confirmed as not being related to the crisis it leads one to believe that it wasn´t related either, but a crime of opportunity.
Yesterday a car bomb was diffused in front of an organization that has spoken out against Zelaya. Another young man was caught with explosives and moltov cocktails in his possession and supposedly he had been paid 12,000 lempiras to carry them to a set place by a leader of one of the unions.
This isn´t the 80´s and Zelaya was removed legally and the US motive in Honduras is the oil that was found last year.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 11:10am

So, how do you feel about the "rule of law" and illegal immigration?

by: JamesM

08-28-2009 @ 7:00pm

We can sort that one out when you give me an answer to my question as to whether you support a coup d'etat.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 4:59pm

Actually I live in Honduras. I am located in San Pedro Sula and no not even the OAS has attributed the deaths to the military. There were four possibly related to the uprisings. No fault was implied. Furthermore, I noticed you said Martin Florencio Rivera and even his family said his death had nothing to do with the crisis. He was killed over a debt. Simply being for the resistence and getting killed in Honduras doesn´t mean anything. In Honduras, there are more than 12 murders every day that have zero to do with the government or military. However, it is believed that Zelaya was behind the murder of the vice president of Congress during the campaign season because he was on Micheletti´s campaign ticket last year and spoke out about the corruption in the Zelaya administration.
El Paraiso has not been attributed either...in fact the two murders are assumed to have been done by the same person because of the blade being the same and with the latter being confirmed as not being related to the crisis it leads one to believe that it wasn´t related either, but a crime of opportunity.
Yesterday a car bomb was diffused in front of an organization that has spoken out against Zelaya. Another young man was caught with explosives and moltov cocktails in his possession and supposedly he had been paid 12,000 lempiras to carry them to a set place by a leader of one of the unions.
This isn´t the 80´s and Zelaya was removed legally and the US motive in Honduras is the oil that was found last year.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 9:29pm

cynthiainsps,
Thank you for setting the record straight. You might want to see the more recent blog about Honduras from sojo.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 11:57pm

I will check it out but for more information I have been writing down events as they developed from a hands on experience on my blog as well. http://lagringasps.blogspot.com you are welcome to take a look there.
There is a lot of disinformation out there when it comes to what is being reported in the US. The US has the tendency to make things worse instead of better when they get involved. I will be the first to admit that there is corruption in the police, but instead of throwing stones at us the rest of the world needs to help us fix what is wrong including corruption of all sorts. Maybe a team of professional investigators to deal with the investigation of murders and so forth. We don´t have DNA and the availability to investigate crimes the way the US or Europe does.

by: cynthiainsps

08-29-2009 @ 12:03am

Please do I would be glad to give sources to what is going on here from first hand eye witness accounts. We are fine. Most of the problems are in downtowns. I think by far the biggest violation of human rights has been the teachers refusing to teach, but that may be coming to an end because after two months of no classes for children they have told the teachers if you don´t work you don´t eat. They are right...no one gets paid for not working and that is the way it should be. They are free to protest after work just like the rest of the world. Children´s rights must be protected first.
http://lagringasps.blogspot.com

There are many opinions on this but in Honduras you cannot really look at anything as black and white or right or left because we aren´t the US and things do not quite work out really that way either politically or in practical life and I agree second hand information is never like living it. I have pictures, commentaries, evidence, laws, ect on the blog and there are several other blogs of people living in Honduras, both Honduran and US ex pats. I married a Honduran citizen 15 years ago and am a Honduran citizen myself now. Living outside the US gives one a whole new view on things.

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 10:32am

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: JamesM

08-28-2009 @ 7:00pm

We can sort that one out when you give me an answer to my question as to whether you support a coup d'etat.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 10:20am

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 9:29pm

cynthiainsps,
Thank you for setting the record straight. You might want to see the more recent blog about Honduras from sojo.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 11:57pm

I will check it out but for more information I have been writing down events as they developed from a hands on experience on my blog as well. http://lagringasps.blogspot.com you are welcome to take a look there.
There is a lot of disinformation out there when it comes to what is being reported in the US. The US has the tendency to make things worse instead of better when they get involved. I will be the first to admit that there is corruption in the police, but instead of throwing stones at us the rest of the world needs to help us fix what is wrong including corruption of all sorts. Maybe a team of professional investigators to deal with the investigation of murders and so forth. We don´t have DNA and the availability to investigate crimes the way the US or Europe does.

by: cynthiainsps

08-29-2009 @ 12:03am

Please do I would be glad to give sources to what is going on here from first hand eye witness accounts. We are fine. Most of the problems are in downtowns. I think by far the biggest violation of human rights has been the teachers refusing to teach, but that may be coming to an end because after two months of no classes for children they have told the teachers if you don´t work you don´t eat. They are right...no one gets paid for not working and that is the way it should be. They are free to protest after work just like the rest of the world. Children´s rights must be protected first.
http://lagringasps.blogspot.com

There are many opinions on this but in Honduras you cannot really look at anything as black and white or right or left because we aren´t the US and things do not quite work out really that way either politically or in practical life and I agree second hand information is never like living it. I have pictures, commentaries, evidence, laws, ect on the blog and there are several other blogs of people living in Honduras, both Honduran and US ex pats. I married a Honduran citizen 15 years ago and am a Honduran citizen myself now. Living outside the US gives one a whole new view on things.

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 10:32am

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 10:20am

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 12:32pm

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 12:20pm

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:00pm

I recently spoke to a Honduran who now lives here in the states, and his parents were visiting. Both he and his dad said that the constitution gave the government every right to send Zelaya packing. Zelaya broke the aw and there is little support for what he did. They went on to say that this is nothing like what happened in the past in Honduras -- I lived there from 82-84 -- and that Zelaya was not a well-liked president. There are maybe a very minority group of vocal supporters for Zelaya, but they in no way represent the vast majority of the country.

I guess the health care town hall disrupters aren't the only people with an agenda....

by: nuclearferret

08-27-2009 @ 6:13pm

THanks for the contribution.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 6:20pm

Well I guess that issue is settled. A Honduran (who now lives in the states) said that Zelaya broke the law. So it must be true. All that it takes to oust a president is the word of a Honduran and the military. Plus the man was not a well-liked president. That's the nail in the coffin right there. Maybe we should have adopted some of the Honduran philosophy here during the Bush presidency. Not well liked? Send him packing back to Texas!

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:51pm

I'll leave your sarcasm aside. The Honduran man happens to be a pastor at a local church, working with Latino immigrant groups. his wife will also be my daughter's teacher this year. Anyway, what he told me is really nothing new. Zelaya broke the law. Period. The only ones who want him to come back are the Hugo Chavezes and Castros of the world. And a few groups in the United States who probably think Chavez and Castro are decent people. No doubt there will be elections in November for a NEW president In Honduras. Few tears will be shed.

BTW: What do you really think of George W. Bush?

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:00pm

I recently spoke to a Honduran who now lives here in the states, and his parents were visiting. Both he and his dad said that the constitution gave the government every right to send Zelaya packing. Zelaya broke the aw and there is little support for what he did. They went on to say that this is nothing like what happened in the past in Honduras -- I lived there from 82-84 -- and that Zelaya was not a well-liked president. There are maybe a very minority group of vocal supporters for Zelaya, but they in no way represent the vast majority of the country.

I guess the health care town hall disrupters aren't the only people with an agenda....

by: nuclearferret

08-27-2009 @ 6:13pm

THanks for the contribution.

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 8:57pm

Yep that did it for me too, Sister Marie. I was overwhelmed by the factual support of the argument.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 6:20pm

Well I guess that issue is settled. A Honduran (who now lives in the states) said that Zelaya broke the law. So it must be true. All that it takes to oust a president is the word of a Honduran and the military. Plus the man was not a well-liked president. That's the nail in the coffin right there. Maybe we should have adopted some of the Honduran philosophy here during the Bush presidency. Not well liked? Send him packing back to Texas!

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 9:34pm

I believe my Honduran aquaintence's view is supported by the majority of Hondurans. I have tried to educate myself on the issue as much as possible, and my understanding is that Zelaya went against the constitution. Perhaps the coup should have been handled better, but compared to the past there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand. Perhaps you have more factual information than me. I would be glad to hear about it, as it's the country that was home for two years and I still have fond memories of many people there.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:51pm

I'll leave your sarcasm aside. The Honduran man happens to be a pastor at a local church, working with Latino immigrant groups. his wife will also be my daughter's teacher this year. Anyway, what he told me is really nothing new. Zelaya broke the law. Period. The only ones who want him to come back are the Hugo Chavezes and Castros of the world. And a few groups in the United States who probably think Chavez and Castro are decent people. No doubt there will be elections in November for a NEW president In Honduras. Few tears will be shed.

BTW: What do you really think of George W. Bush?

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 12:32pm

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 12:20pm

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 10:12pm

The Democrats wanted Nixon out-- impeachment was the legal remedy. The Republicans wanted Clinton out. Impeachment was the legal remedy. When they failed, they did not call out the military.

Maybe the coup should have been handled better?! Really?!!

A good starting point of the discussion would be why constitutional remedies were not used and why the military did the job.

I am thankful for the concept of the "rule of law" and "due process." Unfortunately vigilante justice and coups d'etat don't rise to the level of either the rule of law or due process.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 11:17pm

"...there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand."
(ando commenting on the military coup that ousted Zelaya)

Extrajudicial executions that have been attributed to the de facto Micheletti government include:
1. 19 year-old Isis Obed Murillo Mencias, shot in the head on 5 July by soldiers when Zelaya's plane was trying to land at Toncontin Airport.
2. Roger Iván Bados, former union leader, member of the Democratic Unification Party and Bloque Popular, shot dead on 11 July while entering his home in San Pedro Sula.
3. 40 year-old campesino leader and Democratic Unification Party member Ramón García on 12 July, after he was forced by unknown people to get off a bus.
4. 23 year-old Pedro Magdiel Muñoz Salvador, detained by police during anti-coup protests and taken to an El Paraíso police station on 24 July, and found at 6:30 am the following morning with 42 stab wounds[118][119][120]; 38 year-old high school teacher Roger Abraham Vallejo Soriano, shot in the head by security forces during protests on 31 July, died on 1 August.
5. school teacher Martin Florencio Rivera, killed on 2 August as he left the mourning procession for Roger Vallejo, stabbed 27 times.

If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 11:31pm

"If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure."

Why put words in my mouth?! I didn't say I admired the system. Apparently you admire Zelaya. After all, he's a Leftist in the mold Chavez and Castro. You apparently don't know much about Central American history, either. I lived there in the 1980s and was checked at gun point a number of times by the Honduran military. It was even worse in Nicaragua and El Salvador. We couldn't travel there. In Guatemala both the military death squads and the guerrillas were killing thousands of people. This is nothing like those times. You WILL see an election in November. Micheletti is from the same Liberales party as Zelaya. The former doesn't want to be president, from all indications.
Why do you think the Obama administration hasn't done more to reinstate Zelaya? Because they know the score.
If you're the type who admires Left-wing dictatorships, that's fine. Why don't you fly down and join the protesters? Put a Chavez picture on it. Just Don't count me in.

by: SisterMarie

08-28-2009 @ 12:09am

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never wrote anywhere that I admire Castro or Chavez. What I do respect is the rule of law. Military coups are wrong whether they are carried out by left-wing or by right-wing groups.

There's a process that's called elections. You may not always agree with the outcome, but (small d) democrats still embrace them

Why do I think that Obama has not done more to reinstate Zelaya? Since I'm not a part of his NSC, I don't really know, but I would guess that having inherited two wars from his predecessor, that he has no intention of getting American fighting men and women into another war.

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by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:00pm

I recently spoke to a Honduran who now lives here in the states, and his parents were visiting. Both he and his dad said that the constitution gave the government every right to send Zelaya packing. Zelaya broke the aw and there is little support for what he did. They went on to say that this is nothing like what happened in the past in Honduras -- I lived there from 82-84 -- and that Zelaya was not a well-liked president. There are maybe a very minority group of vocal supporters for Zelaya, but they in no way represent the vast majority of the country.

I guess the health care town hall disrupters aren't the only people with an agenda....

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:00pm

I recently spoke to a Honduran who now lives here in the states, and his parents were visiting. Both he and his dad said that the constitution gave the government every right to send Zelaya packing. Zelaya broke the aw and there is little support for what he did. They went on to say that this is nothing like what happened in the past in Honduras -- I lived there from 82-84 -- and that Zelaya was not a well-liked president. There are maybe a very minority group of vocal supporters for Zelaya, but they in no way represent the vast majority of the country.

I guess the health care town hall disrupters aren't the only people with an agenda....

by: nuclearferret

08-27-2009 @ 6:13pm

THanks for the contribution.

by: nuclearferret

08-27-2009 @ 6:13pm

THanks for the contribution.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 6:20pm

Well I guess that issue is settled. A Honduran (who now lives in the states) said that Zelaya broke the law. So it must be true. All that it takes to oust a president is the word of a Honduran and the military. Plus the man was not a well-liked president. That's the nail in the coffin right there. Maybe we should have adopted some of the Honduran philosophy here during the Bush presidency. Not well liked? Send him packing back to Texas!

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 6:20pm

Well I guess that issue is settled. A Honduran (who now lives in the states) said that Zelaya broke the law. So it must be true. All that it takes to oust a president is the word of a Honduran and the military. Plus the man was not a well-liked president. That's the nail in the coffin right there. Maybe we should have adopted some of the Honduran philosophy here during the Bush presidency. Not well liked? Send him packing back to Texas!

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:51pm

I'll leave your sarcasm aside. The Honduran man happens to be a pastor at a local church, working with Latino immigrant groups. his wife will also be my daughter's teacher this year. Anyway, what he told me is really nothing new. Zelaya broke the law. Period. The only ones who want him to come back are the Hugo Chavezes and Castros of the world. And a few groups in the United States who probably think Chavez and Castro are decent people. No doubt there will be elections in November for a NEW president In Honduras. Few tears will be shed.

BTW: What do you really think of George W. Bush?

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 6:51pm

I'll leave your sarcasm aside. The Honduran man happens to be a pastor at a local church, working with Latino immigrant groups. his wife will also be my daughter's teacher this year. Anyway, what he told me is really nothing new. Zelaya broke the law. Period. The only ones who want him to come back are the Hugo Chavezes and Castros of the world. And a few groups in the United States who probably think Chavez and Castro are decent people. No doubt there will be elections in November for a NEW president In Honduras. Few tears will be shed.

BTW: What do you really think of George W. Bush?

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 8:57pm

Yep that did it for me too, Sister Marie. I was overwhelmed by the factual support of the argument.

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 8:57pm

Yep that did it for me too, Sister Marie. I was overwhelmed by the factual support of the argument.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 9:34pm

I believe my Honduran aquaintence's view is supported by the majority of Hondurans. I have tried to educate myself on the issue as much as possible, and my understanding is that Zelaya went against the constitution. Perhaps the coup should have been handled better, but compared to the past there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand. Perhaps you have more factual information than me. I would be glad to hear about it, as it's the country that was home for two years and I still have fond memories of many people there.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 9:34pm

I believe my Honduran aquaintence's view is supported by the majority of Hondurans. I have tried to educate myself on the issue as much as possible, and my understanding is that Zelaya went against the constitution. Perhaps the coup should have been handled better, but compared to the past there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand. Perhaps you have more factual information than me. I would be glad to hear about it, as it's the country that was home for two years and I still have fond memories of many people there.

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 10:12pm

The Democrats wanted Nixon out-- impeachment was the legal remedy. The Republicans wanted Clinton out. Impeachment was the legal remedy. When they failed, they did not call out the military.

Maybe the coup should have been handled better?! Really?!!

A good starting point of the discussion would be why constitutional remedies were not used and why the military did the job.

I am thankful for the concept of the "rule of law" and "due process." Unfortunately vigilante justice and coups d'etat don't rise to the level of either the rule of law or due process.

by: JamesM

08-27-2009 @ 10:12pm

The Democrats wanted Nixon out-- impeachment was the legal remedy. The Republicans wanted Clinton out. Impeachment was the legal remedy. When they failed, they did not call out the military.

Maybe the coup should have been handled better?! Really?!!

A good starting point of the discussion would be why constitutional remedies were not used and why the military did the job.

I am thankful for the concept of the "rule of law" and "due process." Unfortunately vigilante justice and coups d'etat don't rise to the level of either the rule of law or due process.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 11:17pm

"...there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand."
(ando commenting on the military coup that ousted Zelaya)

Extrajudicial executions that have been attributed to the de facto Micheletti government include:
1. 19 year-old Isis Obed Murillo Mencias, shot in the head on 5 July by soldiers when Zelaya's plane was trying to land at Toncontin Airport.
2. Roger Iván Bados, former union leader, member of the Democratic Unification Party and Bloque Popular, shot dead on 11 July while entering his home in San Pedro Sula.
3. 40 year-old campesino leader and Democratic Unification Party member Ramón García on 12 July, after he was forced by unknown people to get off a bus.
4. 23 year-old Pedro Magdiel Muñoz Salvador, detained by police during anti-coup protests and taken to an El Paraíso police station on 24 July, and found at 6:30 am the following morning with 42 stab wounds[118][119][120]; 38 year-old high school teacher Roger Abraham Vallejo Soriano, shot in the head by security forces during protests on 31 July, died on 1 August.
5. school teacher Martin Florencio Rivera, killed on 2 August as he left the mourning procession for Roger Vallejo, stabbed 27 times.

If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure.

by: SisterMarie

08-27-2009 @ 11:17pm

"...there has been a minimal amount of violence from what I understand."
(ando commenting on the military coup that ousted Zelaya)

Extrajudicial executions that have been attributed to the de facto Micheletti government include:
1. 19 year-old Isis Obed Murillo Mencias, shot in the head on 5 July by soldiers when Zelaya's plane was trying to land at Toncontin Airport.
2. Roger Iván Bados, former union leader, member of the Democratic Unification Party and Bloque Popular, shot dead on 11 July while entering his home in San Pedro Sula.
3. 40 year-old campesino leader and Democratic Unification Party member Ramón García on 12 July, after he was forced by unknown people to get off a bus.
4. 23 year-old Pedro Magdiel Muñoz Salvador, detained by police during anti-coup protests and taken to an El Paraíso police station on 24 July, and found at 6:30 am the following morning with 42 stab wounds[118][119][120]; 38 year-old high school teacher Roger Abraham Vallejo Soriano, shot in the head by security forces during protests on 31 July, died on 1 August.
5. school teacher Martin Florencio Rivera, killed on 2 August as he left the mourning procession for Roger Vallejo, stabbed 27 times.

If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 11:31pm

"If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure."

Why put words in my mouth?! I didn't say I admired the system. Apparently you admire Zelaya. After all, he's a Leftist in the mold Chavez and Castro. You apparently don't know much about Central American history, either. I lived there in the 1980s and was checked at gun point a number of times by the Honduran military. It was even worse in Nicaragua and El Salvador. We couldn't travel there. In Guatemala both the military death squads and the guerrillas were killing thousands of people. This is nothing like those times. You WILL see an election in November. Micheletti is from the same Liberales party as Zelaya. The former doesn't want to be president, from all indications.
Why do you think the Obama administration hasn't done more to reinstate Zelaya? Because they know the score.
If you're the type who admires Left-wing dictatorships, that's fine. Why don't you fly down and join the protesters? Put a Chavez picture on it. Just Don't count me in.

by: ando

08-27-2009 @ 11:31pm

"If that's your definition of "a minimum amount of violence" and you truly admire a system that will wake a man from his bed, march him to a plane, and fly him out of the country without any kind of opportunity for him to be judged, then I fear for our own country if you find nothing wrong with that procedure."

Why put words in my mouth?! I didn't say I admired the system. Apparently you admire Zelaya. After all, he's a Leftist in the mold Chavez and Castro. You apparently don't know much about Central American history, either. I lived there in the 1980s and was checked at gun point a number of times by the Honduran military. It was even worse in Nicaragua and El Salvador. We couldn't travel there. In Guatemala both the military death squads and the guerrillas were killing thousands of people. This is nothing like those times. You WILL see an election in November. Micheletti is from the same Liberales party as Zelaya. The former doesn't want to be president, from all indications.
Why do you think the Obama administration hasn't done more to reinstate Zelaya? Because they know the score.
If you're the type who admires Left-wing dictatorships, that's fine. Why don't you fly down and join the protesters? Put a Chavez picture on it. Just Don't count me in.

by: SisterMarie

08-28-2009 @ 12:09am

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never wrote anywhere that I admire Castro or Chavez. What I do respect is the rule of law. Military coups are wrong whether they are carried out by left-wing or by right-wing groups.

There's a process that's called elections. You may not always agree with the outcome, but (small d) democrats still embrace them

Why do I think that Obama has not done more to reinstate Zelaya? Since I'm not a part of his NSC, I don't really know, but I would guess that having inherited two wars from his predecessor, that he has no intention of getting American fighting men and women into another war.

by: SisterMarie

08-28-2009 @ 12:09am

No, you're putting words in my mouth. I never wrote anywhere that I admire Castro or Chavez. What I do respect is the rule of law. Military coups are wrong whether they are carried out by left-wing or by right-wing groups.

There's a process that's called elections. You may not always agree with the outcome, but (small d) democrats still embrace them

Why do I think that Obama has not done more to reinstate Zelaya? Since I'm not a part of his NSC, I don't really know, but I would guess that having inherited two wars from his predecessor, that he has no intention of getting American fighting men and women into another war.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 11:10am

So, how do you feel about the "rule of law" and illegal immigration?

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 11:10am

So, how do you feel about the "rule of law" and illegal immigration?

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 4:59pm

Actually I live in Honduras. I am located in San Pedro Sula and no not even the OAS has attributed the deaths to the military. There were four possibly related to the uprisings. No fault was implied. Furthermore, I noticed you said Martin Florencio Rivera and even his family said his death had nothing to do with the crisis. He was killed over a debt. Simply being for the resistence and getting killed in Honduras doesn´t mean anything. In Honduras, there are more than 12 murders every day that have zero to do with the government or military. However, it is believed that Zelaya was behind the murder of the vice president of Congress during the campaign season because he was on Micheletti´s campaign ticket last year and spoke out about the corruption in the Zelaya administration.
El Paraiso has not been attributed either...in fact the two murders are assumed to have been done by the same person because of the blade being the same and with the latter being confirmed as not being related to the crisis it leads one to believe that it wasn´t related either, but a crime of opportunity.
Yesterday a car bomb was diffused in front of an organization that has spoken out against Zelaya. Another young man was caught with explosives and moltov cocktails in his possession and supposedly he had been paid 12,000 lempiras to carry them to a set place by a leader of one of the unions.
This isn´t the 80´s and Zelaya was removed legally and the US motive in Honduras is the oil that was found last year.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 4:59pm

Actually I live in Honduras. I am located in San Pedro Sula and no not even the OAS has attributed the deaths to the military. There were four possibly related to the uprisings. No fault was implied. Furthermore, I noticed you said Martin Florencio Rivera and even his family said his death had nothing to do with the crisis. He was killed over a debt. Simply being for the resistence and getting killed in Honduras doesn´t mean anything. In Honduras, there are more than 12 murders every day that have zero to do with the government or military. However, it is believed that Zelaya was behind the murder of the vice president of Congress during the campaign season because he was on Micheletti´s campaign ticket last year and spoke out about the corruption in the Zelaya administration.
El Paraiso has not been attributed either...in fact the two murders are assumed to have been done by the same person because of the blade being the same and with the latter being confirmed as not being related to the crisis it leads one to believe that it wasn´t related either, but a crime of opportunity.
Yesterday a car bomb was diffused in front of an organization that has spoken out against Zelaya. Another young man was caught with explosives and moltov cocktails in his possession and supposedly he had been paid 12,000 lempiras to carry them to a set place by a leader of one of the unions.
This isn´t the 80´s and Zelaya was removed legally and the US motive in Honduras is the oil that was found last year.

by: JamesM

08-28-2009 @ 7:00pm

We can sort that one out when you give me an answer to my question as to whether you support a coup d'etat.

by: JamesM

08-28-2009 @ 7:00pm

We can sort that one out when you give me an answer to my question as to whether you support a coup d'etat.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 9:29pm

cynthiainsps,
Thank you for setting the record straight. You might want to see the more recent blog about Honduras from sojo.

by: ando

08-28-2009 @ 9:29pm

cynthiainsps,
Thank you for setting the record straight. You might want to see the more recent blog about Honduras from sojo.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 11:57pm

I will check it out but for more information I have been writing down events as they developed from a hands on experience on my blog as well. http://lagringasps.blogspot.com you are welcome to take a look there.
There is a lot of disinformation out there when it comes to what is being reported in the US. The US has the tendency to make things worse instead of better when they get involved. I will be the first to admit that there is corruption in the police, but instead of throwing stones at us the rest of the world needs to help us fix what is wrong including corruption of all sorts. Maybe a team of professional investigators to deal with the investigation of murders and so forth. We don´t have DNA and the availability to investigate crimes the way the US or Europe does.

by: cynthiainsps

08-28-2009 @ 11:57pm

I will check it out but for more information I have been writing down events as they developed from a hands on experience on my blog as well. http://lagringasps.blogspot.com you are welcome to take a look there.
There is a lot of disinformation out there when it comes to what is being reported in the US. The US has the tendency to make things worse instead of better when they get involved. I will be the first to admit that there is corruption in the police, but instead of throwing stones at us the rest of the world needs to help us fix what is wrong including corruption of all sorts. Maybe a team of professional investigators to deal with the investigation of murders and so forth. We don´t have DNA and the availability to investigate crimes the way the US or Europe does.

by: cynthiainsps

08-29-2009 @ 12:03am

Please do I would be glad to give sources to what is going on here from first hand eye witness accounts. We are fine. Most of the problems are in downtowns. I think by far the biggest violation of human rights has been the teachers refusing to teach, but that may be coming to an end because after two months of no classes for children they have told the teachers if you don´t work you don´t eat. They are right...no one gets paid for not working and that is the way it should be. They are free to protest after work just like the rest of the world. Children´s rights must be protected first.
http://lagringasps.blogspot.com

There are many opinions on this but in Honduras you cannot really look at anything as black and white or right or left because we aren´t the US and things do not quite work out really that way either politically or in practical life and I agree second hand information is never like living it. I have pictures, commentaries, evidence, laws, ect on the blog and there are several other blogs of people living in Honduras, both Honduran and US ex pats. I married a Honduran citizen 15 years ago and am a Honduran citizen myself now. Living outside the US gives one a whole new view on things.

by: cynthiainsps

08-29-2009 @ 12:03am

Please do I would be glad to give sources to what is going on here from first hand eye witness accounts. We are fine. Most of the problems are in downtowns. I think by far the biggest violation of human rights has been the teachers refusing to teach, but that may be coming to an end because after two months of no classes for children they have told the teachers if you don´t work you don´t eat. They are right...no one gets paid for not working and that is the way it should be. They are free to protest after work just like the rest of the world. Children´s rights must be protected first.
http://lagringasps.blogspot.com

There are many opinions on this but in Honduras you cannot really look at anything as black and white or right or left because we aren´t the US and things do not quite work out really that way either politically or in practical life and I agree second hand information is never like living it. I have pictures, commentaries, evidence, laws, ect on the blog and there are several other blogs of people living in Honduras, both Honduran and US ex pats. I married a Honduran citizen 15 years ago and am a Honduran citizen myself now. Living outside the US gives one a whole new view on things.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 10:20am

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 10:20am

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 10:32am

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 10:32am

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 12:20pm

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: genesis11

08-29-2009 @ 12:20pm

Is anyone listening to those of us in Honduras. The protestors have been violent. Much of the time the police have ignored their mayhem. They have used bombs at the univerisity, burned down a restaurant, broken windows on other restaurants and injured the people inside. I have SEEN the other demonstrators who are not scared to show their faces, march peacefully, and have massive church meetings that are ecumenical. Please listen to the majority of Hondurans and expats here who do not want Zelahya to return with his support from Chavez. Did you see the reports of Chavez' conference in Ecuador when he declared war on the Americas, with Zelaya at his elbow? Is that what would be best for Honduras?

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 12:32pm

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.

by: JamesM

08-29-2009 @ 12:32pm

I hope that you and your family are safe. I read further and would have to agree with you that it is not "black and white". Zelaya appeared to have been engaging in irregularities. EVEN IF he was legally ordered arrested by the Supreme Court, he should have been put on trial-- not summarily deposed fromt he country.