Listening to Poor People 'Offstage'

"Of course. But destructive behaviors like those listed just make everyone poorer."

Which is true. As did the rulers of Wall Street who collapsed the global economic system. As did the racists of Alabama who buried our state in a history of poverty, division and war.

I struggle with the behaviors highlighted--that you quote. But I think the fundamental point is that persons understand their involvement in oppressive and exploitive structures. It is not simply their "slow down" that renders the damage (making all poorer) but rather the larger exploitation that is going on. So he is highlighting, in a sense, just as persons will go to war (sacrificing their well being if they believe there to be a higher cause); poor persons too will find ways to lessen the "props" that hold up oppression.

For those above who are critical of the preformace of the poor should spend a few days in any slum in any big city. Calcutta would be a good start. See my wife to get a good tour guide of the backside of the docks.

The poor work very hard to survive.

Yes there are unwise choices at both both at the individual and communal levels which reduces one to poverty. Yet to blame the victims is some what of an over simplification justifying ones privilege.

Even simple issues such as opening bank accounts with minimal funds so that cheques can be cashed with out using the rapacious money changers would be a start.

We under estimate the penalties imposed by buerocratic barriers to doing business imposed by non caring enterprises including governments.

Any under class mock those who they perceive as having the advantage of having been born into the right house. It's one way of maintaining any self respect / and reducing depression. This attitude is also highly developed in colonial situations.

Why should they not, they feel that the social contract is not fair.

For those above who are critical of the preformace of the poor should spend a few days in any slum in any big city. Calcutta would be a good start. See my wife to get a good tour guide of the backside of the docks.

The poor work very hard to survive.

Yes there are unwise choices at both both at the individual and communal levels which reduces one to poverty. Yet to blame the victims is some what of an over simplification justifying ones privilege.

Even simple issues such as opening bank accounts with minimal funds so that cheques can be cashed with out using the rapacious money changers would be a start.

We under estimate the penalties imposed by buerocratic barriers to doing business imposed by non caring enterprises including governments.

Any under class mock those who they perceive as having the advantage of having been born into the right house. It's one way of maintaining any self respect / and reducing depression. This attitude is also highly developed in colonial situations.

Why should they not, they feel that the social contract is not fair.

I just want to call your attention to a very concrete example of what you are talking about happening right now in Honduras. Most people in the US get there news about Honduras from US based groups working in that country instead of listening to the Honduran people themselves. Admittedly, this is difficult for those who don't speak Spanish, but for those who do tune in to radio progreso from the city of El Progreso which is a voice of the people. (http://radioprogresohn.com/) An Evangelical pastor just called in to state his support for the demonstration planned for tomorrow night in a central park called "Breaking the silence." He talked about meeting a Catholic priest with whom he had gone to primary school many years ago and he talked about him now as a fellow "servant of the Lord." This is "grassroots ecumenism" at its best.

I just want to call your attention to a very concrete example of what you are talking about happening right now in Honduras. Most people in the US get there news about Honduras from US based groups working in that country instead of listening to the Honduran people themselves. Admittedly, this is difficult for those who don't speak Spanish, but for those who do tune in to radio progreso from the city of El Progreso which is a voice of the people. (http://radioprogresohn.com/) An Evangelical pastor just called in to state his support for the demonstration planned for tomorrow night in a central park called "Breaking the silence." He talked about meeting a Catholic priest with whom he had gone to primary school many years ago and he talked about him now as a fellow "servant of the Lord." This is "grassroots ecumenism" at its best.

The question is, will Mr. Wilson-Hartgrove consider the possibility that this applies to him and his movement, when they are in power? Is it possible that the poor you claim to protect will tend to act grateful in public, while in private they undermine your vision?

Stupidity is not exclusive to the wealthy, it's a common trait of humanity, applying in different ways and times to powerful and powerless, wealthy and poor, conservative and progressive.

LV

Is there any evidence in the spirit of his post that he is not applying it to himself???

What is the movement you consider him to represent? He may be particularly focused on those who now are in power. He doesn't say. Actually, come to think of it--his words and argument seem to be quite gracious--and calling us to give dignity to voices who would often be overrun. Neither, pointing the finger at anyone nor leaving anyone out.

Is there any reason not to extend such grace back??

It's funny that the author should mention dumpster diving, because I helped a poor friend yesterday by diving for food at a closeout store. I picked the things out with a tool, and she loaded them into 6 boxes. Enough breakfast cereal/bars for her for months, and gifts for my friends living on the tight side. This is worth doing weekly!

I am sending an e-mail to the chain's management suggesting that they reduce their trash disposal costs by recycling cardboard and giving food products through local food banks for redistribution. If they can't be shamed into giving food away (as per the article), I figure the reduction of disposal costs may be a motivating factor.

In our town, the Food Bank can't give away past-pull-date perishables from stores, so they are given to a church that redistributes them according to a rotating list. This limits the Food Bank's liability.

The middle class and above tell me that the poor are unfortunate but they absolutely made choices along the way which kept them from gaining in economic terms. Sure, there is the occasional senior citizen or disabled person who was dealt a bad deck of cards but most of the poor will remain that way because they made and continue to make bad choices in life. It might be education, spending excessively, not saving, lack of concerted effort, living for today's pleasure, no planning, etc. My wife is a public school teacher & she laments the parent with the designer jacket, fancy nails, & latest cell phone, who won't turn in the form to find out the family emergency phone numbers but turns in the form immediately for free/reduced price lunches.

So, the middle class and above don't want to be punished (taken from) because they made the right choices, sacrificed, planned, etc. How do we deal with those concerns they have about giving up their earnings for those who those in the village who won't pull their own weight so to speak?

The question is, will Mr. Wilson-Hartgrove consider the possibility that this applies to him and his movement, when they are in power? Is it possible that the poor you claim to protect will tend to act grateful in public, while in private they undermine your vision?

Stupidity is not exclusive to the wealthy, it's a common trait of humanity, applying in different ways and times to powerful and powerless, wealthy and poor, conservative and progressive.

LV

Is there any evidence in the spirit of his post that he is not applying it to himself???

What is the movement you consider him to represent? He may be particularly focused on those who now are in power. He doesn't say. Actually, come to think of it--his words and argument seem to be quite gracious--and calling us to give dignity to voices who would often be overrun. Neither, pointing the finger at anyone nor leaving anyone out.

Is there any reason not to extend such grace back??

Hey Jonathan, wonderful article. My experience of 23 years ministering on the margins confirms the great wisdom among the poor and marginalized that too often gets missed by both Church and social service agency. But your closing lines on friendship are, for me, the most significant. It is in genuine relationship (not patronizing distance) that mutual transformation takes place of the kind which can change the world. Pentecost breaks down the dividing wall of hostility, and infuses in us the enduring Flame of Love.

"Of course. But destructive behaviors like those listed just make everyone poorer."

Which is true. As did the rulers of Wall Street who collapsed the global economic system. As did the racists of Alabama who buried our state in a history of poverty, division and war.

I struggle with the behaviors highlighted--that you quote. But I think the fundamental point is that persons understand their involvement in oppressive and exploitive structures. It is not simply their "slow down" that renders the damage (making all poorer) but rather the larger exploitation that is going on. So he is highlighting, in a sense, just as persons will go to war (sacrificing their well being if they believe there to be a higher cause); poor persons too will find ways to lessen the "props" that hold up oppression.

I must object to the implied notion that it's somehow OK for the poor to mock "the system through gossip, slander, stealing, dragging their feet, and sabotaging their masters' plans."

First, unless we are dealing with actual slavery, there is no master. Second, when is it EVER OK to steal, gossip, slander, drag one's feet, and sabotage? Just b/c one's poor, and another's wealthy, does not give one license to do these things.

Now, can economic reforms be pushed, and can reforms make things better? Most certainly. Do the poor often know what they need more than others? Of course. But destructive behaviors like those listed just make everyone poorer.