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What's Wrong with a 'Taxpayer Bill of Rights'

by Bob Greenstein 10-26-2009 | 3:30pm
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Voters in Maine and Washington state are being asked to vote this November on whether they want impose a rigid formula limit on state and local revenues and services. Although the question is not posed in these terms, citizens will be voting to determine whether they want to live in a state in which all children get a good education and access to health care and a chance to escape poverty, or a state that is so starved for funds that it cannot provide even the basics.

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The type of limit on the Maine (Question 4) and Washington (I-1033) ballots, known as the Taxpayer Bill of Rights or "TABOR," exists in only one state -- Colorado. TABOR has contributed to a significant decline in public services and increase in human suffering there. Just a few examples:

  • Colorado declined from 35th to 49th in the nation in K-12 spending as a percent of personal income under TABOR;
  • Colorado fell to near the bottom of national rankings in the percent of women receiving adequate prenatal care, and was dead last in providing children with full, on-time vaccinations;
  • Poor children are less likely to have health insurance in Colorado than in any other state; the share of low-income children in the state who lacked health insurance doubled after TABOR. The share of uninsured adults also rose sharply.
  • In addition, business leaders found that TABOR was harming the business climate.

These problems led a huge coalition of faith leaders, human services organizations, and businesses to successfully promote a statewide measure in Colorado in 2005 to suspend TABOR's formula for five years. Even so, Colorado still lags behind its neighboring states; its quality of services has never recovered.

This is the worst possible time to adopt a TABOR. Both the Maine and Washington proposals would require those states to maintain permanently their current, shrunken level of state expenditures. In other words, these states would be locked permanently into the budget cuts they have had to institute to deal with the sharp decline in state revenues because of the recession. Under TABOR, when revenues rebound as the economy recovers, virtually all of the increase in revenues will have to be used for tax cuts. The state will essentially be prohibited from using part of the increase in revenues to undo the cuts it has instituted during the recession in services for people in need.

Another major concern is that if TABOR wins in these states, we will see it taken up in many other states next year. Anti-government forces already are working to put it on numerous state ballots for 2010.

There are national dimensions to the TABOR debate as well. Should this pass, it will strengthen the efforts of anti-government forces to rally against government spending (e.g. the Taxpayer Tea Parties) and oppose initiatives to help those in need.

TABOR has caused immense damage in the one state that has tried it. There is no reason for any other state to go down that road.

You can join the efforts to stop this extremely dangerous initiative in these two states. With only days remaining, there are things you can do to stop this extremely dangerous initiative in these two states.

  1. Get the information. Below are links to research. Learn more about what is at stake.
  2. Get involved. Forward the link to this blog to your friends and family members in Maine and Washington. If you live in these states, sign up to volunteer and find out what you can do to help. The website in Maine is www.votenoontabor.org and in Washington it is www.no1033.com.
  3. Get out to VOTE. For those in Washington, ballots are in-hand. Voters need to deliver them to drop-off locations. For those in Maine, be sure to vote and urge your friends and neighbors to exercise their right to vote as well.

Maine: see http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2927 and http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2954

Washington: see http://www.budgetandpolicy.org/documents/i1033_080509.pdf

Bob Greenstein is the founder and executive director of the Center for Budget & Policy Priorities.

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by: MacArthur5

10-26-2009 @ 11:14pm

It is a liberal perspective. It is meant to be a promotion of one view with out regards to being fair. You will be deleted or kicked off if you persist.

by: elisiah

10-26-2009 @ 9:58pm

all the FACTS are so nice to have. sojourners should maybe try it once or twice. It would make the discussion much easier to say the least. And more honest and open

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 4:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view of Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: MacArthur5

10-26-2009 @ 11:14pm

It is a liberal perspective. It is meant to be a promotion of one view with out regards to being fair. You will be deleted or kicked off if you persist.

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 4:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view of Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: letjusticerolldown

10-27-2009 @ 5:18am

I'll give an honest and ignorant response.

Knowing nothing about the Taxpayer Bill of Rights--I'm inclined to support it given this badly argued position.

I don't know Bob Greenstein. But he is founder and executive of an impressive sounding organization--so I presume he knows what he is talking about.

When citizens take to the streets and experts tell them to sit down and shut-up, without bothering to explain why they are in the streets marching, I go with the citizens.

The citizens aren't required to be sane. Experts are.

When the citizens appear more reasoned than the expert--I go with the citizens.

i.e. Please write another article explaining what these measures are and what those behind them wish to accomplish; and then take issue with the outcomes or means or whatever you want. I will gladly consider.

by: pooch

10-27-2009 @ 11:02am

I'm just amazed Mr. Greenstein wrote an entire article without invoking "the least of these" to justify higher taxes and greater government intervention.

by: letjusticerolldown

10-27-2009 @ 5:18am

I'll give an honest and ignorant response.

Knowing nothing about the Taxpayer Bill of Rights--I'm inclined to support it given this badly argued position.

I don't know Bob Greenstein. But he is founder and executive of an impressive sounding organization--so I presume he knows what he is talking about.

When citizens take to the streets and experts tell them to sit down and shut-up, without bothering to explain why they are in the streets marching, I go with the citizens.

The citizens aren't required to be sane. Experts are.

When the citizens appear more reasoned than the expert--I go with the citizens.

i.e. Please write another article explaining what these measures are and what those behind them wish to accomplish; and then take issue with the outcomes or means or whatever you want. I will gladly consider.

by: pooch

10-27-2009 @ 11:02am

I'm just amazed Mr. Greenstein wrote an entire article without invoking "the least of these" to justify higher taxes and greater government intervention.

by: jon_kelly

10-27-2009 @ 1:42pm

I am a Colorado resident who grew up on this state and presently serve on the school board of a small rural school district. Without question TABOR has been and continues to be an unmitigated disaster for Colorado. It has crushed the states' transportation infrastructure, disproportionately devastated school districts in less affluent areas of the state, gutted higher education and at present is hurling us toward a fiscal disaster that our state legislature and governor are largely powerless to avert. TABOR takes away our elected representative's discretion to govern, budget and tax, leading to political and fiscal gridlock at a time that swift and creative action is demanded. By removing the ability of elected representatives to effectively govern, TABOR violates one the most basic of our constitutional rights: that of a republican form of government. Unless TABOR is repealed--and quickly--Colorado will be in line behind California as the next failed state. If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office. A TABOR-like constitutional amendment is not the answer to your concerns-TABOR is a Pandora's box of unforeseen consequences that will be borne most by those who can least afford them. The damage it will cause will take a generation or two to repair.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-27-2009 @ 2:36pm

Well, you probably should give yourself time to see which way the "Government is Good" people turn, but keeping the state in check requires fairly constant monitoring.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-27-2009 @ 4:27pm

If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office.And get the new ones to repeal the laws that cause the problems which TABOR is supposed to fix.

by: jon_kelly

10-27-2009 @ 1:42pm

I am a Colorado resident who grew up on this state and presently serve on the school board of a small rural school district. Without question TABOR has been and continues to be an unmitigated disaster for Colorado. It has crushed the states' transportation infrastructure, disproportionately devastated school districts in less affluent areas of the state, gutted higher education and at present is hurling us toward a fiscal disaster that our state legislature and governor are largely powerless to avert. TABOR takes away our elected representative's discretion to govern, budget and tax, leading to political and fiscal gridlock at a time that swift and creative action is demanded. By removing the ability of elected representatives to effectively govern, TABOR violates one the most basic of our constitutional rights: that of a republican form of government. Unless TABOR is repealed--and quickly--Colorado will be in line behind California as the next failed state. If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office. A TABOR-like constitutional amendment is not the answer to your concerns-TABOR is a Pandora's box of unforeseen consequences that will be borne most by those who can least afford them. The damage it will cause will take a generation or two to repair.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-27-2009 @ 2:36pm

Well, you probably should give yourself time to see which way the "Government is Good" people turn, but keeping the state in check requires fairly constant monitoring.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-27-2009 @ 4:27pm

If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office.And get the new ones to repeal the laws that cause the problems which TABOR is supposed to fix.

by: JacobS

10-27-2009 @ 7:05pm

It's worth noting that TABOR is not up as a constitutional amendment in Maine, it's only a citizen's initiative. The legislature could overturn TABOR before it ever took effect. That's one reason I'm not too concerned about it turning into a Colorado-like situation, it will only take a majority in the legislature and the governor's signature to overturn it. What it will do, however, is send a message to Augusta that we're fed up with taxes, and we're fed up with the state's frivolous spending on social programs.

by: JacobS

10-27-2009 @ 7:05pm

It's worth noting that TABOR is not up as a constitutional amendment in Maine, it's only a citizen's initiative. The legislature could overturn TABOR before it ever took effect. That's one reason I'm not too concerned about it turning into a Colorado-like situation, it will only take a majority in the legislature and the governor's signature to overturn it. What it will do, however, is send a message to Augusta that we're fed up with taxes, and we're fed up with the state's frivolous spending on social programs.

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 6:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view which Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 3:11pm

This is the kind of state-centric thinking that leads the left into all sorts of errors. This entire article is based on the often false presumption that only government can provide services such as education or health care. And the author never bothers to tell us what "the basics" are.

If one wants to cherry-pick health statistics one can make about any state in the union look like a hellhole. And "business leaders" is a large enough category that one can find a "business leader" to advocate just about anything. As for K-12 spending, it's been known for years that educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending; this factoid is almost meaningless without reference to standardized test scores. In short, the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans.

TABOR amendments force governments to set priorities, economize, and keep tax burdens on families and businesses reasonable. One can argue that the limits they set are arbitrary and severe, but until we get past the naive sort of "There's No Such Thing As A Bad Government Program" taxpayers cannot be blamed for wanting to resort to TABOR amendments.

LV

by: BlueDeacon

10-26-2009 @ 3:42pm

Well, after over 30 years California is still suffering from the effects of Proposition 48. But the only thing that mattered was keeping taxes relatively low, never mind the long-term effects; ever since the state has since had problems even setting a budget.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 4:56pm

Prop 48 was a tax cut and it led to a longish period of prosperity. In time (we're talking decades) the work done by Prop 48 was undermined through the increases of other taxes, which turned California into the basket case it is today.

Moral: it's not enough to prune the overgrown state once, it needs to be done every 10-15 years at least.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:29pm

Why is a new law a better solution than trashing old laws? Like all the liberal laws, this one uses synthetic means to achieve the desired end. Being that synthesis is one of my main gripes against liberalism, I fear that this law will only embarrass the free market and invite more liberal laws in its wake.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 3:11pm

This is the kind of state-centric thinking that leads the left into all sorts of errors. This entire article is based on the often false presumption that only government can provide services such as education or health care. And the author never bothers to tell us what "the basics" are.

If one wants to cherry-pick health statistics one can make about any state in the union look like a hellhole. And "business leaders" is a large enough category that one can find a "business leader" to advocate just about anything. As for K-12 spending, it's been known for years that educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending; this factoid is almost meaningless without reference to standardized test scores. In short, the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans.

TABOR amendments force governments to set priorities, economize, and keep tax burdens on families and businesses reasonable. One can argue that the limits they set are arbitrary and severe, but until we get past the naive sort of "There's No Such Thing As A Bad Government Program" taxpayers cannot be blamed for wanting to resort to TABOR amendments.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:39pm

And the debate over which to prune next should probably begin after each success.

by: BlueDeacon

10-26-2009 @ 3:42pm

Well, after over 30 years California is still suffering from the effects of Proposition 48. But the only thing that mattered was keeping taxes relatively low, never mind the long-term effects; ever since the state has since had problems even setting a budget.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 4:56pm

Prop 48 was a tax cut and it led to a longish period of prosperity. In time (we're talking decades) the work done by Prop 48 was undermined through the increases of other taxes, which turned California into the basket case it is today.

Moral: it's not enough to prune the overgrown state once, it needs to be done every 10-15 years at least.

LV

by: Stein

10-26-2009 @ 7:26pm

"the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans" -- say rather that the author fails to prove it TO YOU. Various measurements are provided and you pooh-pooh them in turn. It sounds to me like your mind was already made up and nothing would convice you otherwise. To focus in on one, you say that "educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending" -- I take you to admit that it is therefore somewhat positively correlated.

by: MacArthur4

10-26-2009 @ 7:28pm

What Bob did was leave out the on going problem in Washington State. We just had a legislature that spent way beyond their means and disregarded a previous spending cap put on it by the citizenery. The Governor is speaking of raising taxes after promising of not doing so. Our unemployment is almost 10 percent , the tax structure is so regressive our biggest employer has started leaving our state . Boeing.

93% of Washington state's NFIB members supported the endorsement of Initiative 1033

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:29pm

Why is a new law a better solution than trashing old laws? Like all the liberal laws, this one uses synthetic means to achieve the desired end. Being that synthesis is one of my main gripes against liberalism, I fear that this law will only embarrass the free market and invite more liberal laws in its wake.

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:39pm

And the debate over which to prune next should probably begin after each success.

by: Stein

10-26-2009 @ 7:26pm

"the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans" -- say rather that the author fails to prove it TO YOU. Various measurements are provided and you pooh-pooh them in turn. It sounds to me like your mind was already made up and nothing would convice you otherwise. To focus in on one, you say that "educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending" -- I take you to admit that it is therefore somewhat positively correlated.

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 6:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view which Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: JacobS

10-26-2009 @ 9:15pm

This is the only question on the ballot that I still haven't decided on. It's likely to essentially dismantle government by town meeting and I'm not sure I'm in favor of that, but state spending has been out of control for years, and there's no sign that it will get better.

It's also a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maine (I don't know much about Washington's law) will be locked into recession level spending. Spending and taxes can be raised at any time, it will just take an up or down vote from the people. All the politicians need to do is to convince the voters that the money they're asking for is necessary, it's pretty simple.

It could be helpful at the local level as well. The way it works now is that a few people demand more money for a program or service and they get it; nobody goes to all the meetings just to say that they don't want any changes. Requiring the referendum will be an exercise in democratic governance, an improvement over the interest group governance that we have now.

by: MacArthur4

10-26-2009 @ 7:28pm

What Bob did was leave out the on going problem in Washington State. We just had a legislature that spent way beyond their means and disregarded a previous spending cap put on it by the citizenery. The Governor is speaking of raising taxes after promising of not doing so. Our unemployment is almost 10 percent , the tax structure is so regressive our biggest employer has started leaving our state . Boeing.

93% of Washington state's NFIB members supported the endorsement of Initiative 1033

by: elisiah

10-26-2009 @ 9:58pm

all the FACTS are so nice to have. sojourners should maybe try it once or twice. It would make the discussion much easier to say the least. And more honest and open

by: JacobS

10-26-2009 @ 9:15pm

This is the only question on the ballot that I still haven't decided on. It's likely to essentially dismantle government by town meeting and I'm not sure I'm in favor of that, but state spending has been out of control for years, and there's no sign that it will get better.

It's also a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maine (I don't know much about Washington's law) will be locked into recession level spending. Spending and taxes can be raised at any time, it will just take an up or down vote from the people. All the politicians need to do is to convince the voters that the money they're asking for is necessary, it's pretty simple.

It could be helpful at the local level as well. The way it works now is that a few people demand more money for a program or service and they get it; nobody goes to all the meetings just to say that they don't want any changes. Requiring the referendum will be an exercise in democratic governance, an improvement over the interest group governance that we have now.

Comments sorted by highest rated. After voting you must refresh your page to see the sort order change.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 3:11pm

This is the kind of state-centric thinking that leads the left into all sorts of errors. This entire article is based on the often false presumption that only government can provide services such as education or health care. And the author never bothers to tell us what "the basics" are.

If one wants to cherry-pick health statistics one can make about any state in the union look like a hellhole. And "business leaders" is a large enough category that one can find a "business leader" to advocate just about anything. As for K-12 spending, it's been known for years that educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending; this factoid is almost meaningless without reference to standardized test scores. In short, the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans.

TABOR amendments force governments to set priorities, economize, and keep tax burdens on families and businesses reasonable. One can argue that the limits they set are arbitrary and severe, but until we get past the naive sort of "There's No Such Thing As A Bad Government Program" taxpayers cannot be blamed for wanting to resort to TABOR amendments.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 3:11pm

This is the kind of state-centric thinking that leads the left into all sorts of errors. This entire article is based on the often false presumption that only government can provide services such as education or health care. And the author never bothers to tell us what "the basics" are.

If one wants to cherry-pick health statistics one can make about any state in the union look like a hellhole. And "business leaders" is a large enough category that one can find a "business leader" to advocate just about anything. As for K-12 spending, it's been known for years that educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending; this factoid is almost meaningless without reference to standardized test scores. In short, the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans.

TABOR amendments force governments to set priorities, economize, and keep tax burdens on families and businesses reasonable. One can argue that the limits they set are arbitrary and severe, but until we get past the naive sort of "There's No Such Thing As A Bad Government Program" taxpayers cannot be blamed for wanting to resort to TABOR amendments.

LV

by: BlueDeacon

10-26-2009 @ 3:42pm

Well, after over 30 years California is still suffering from the effects of Proposition 48. But the only thing that mattered was keeping taxes relatively low, never mind the long-term effects; ever since the state has since had problems even setting a budget.

by: BlueDeacon

10-26-2009 @ 3:42pm

Well, after over 30 years California is still suffering from the effects of Proposition 48. But the only thing that mattered was keeping taxes relatively low, never mind the long-term effects; ever since the state has since had problems even setting a budget.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 4:56pm

Prop 48 was a tax cut and it led to a longish period of prosperity. In time (we're talking decades) the work done by Prop 48 was undermined through the increases of other taxes, which turned California into the basket case it is today.

Moral: it's not enough to prune the overgrown state once, it needs to be done every 10-15 years at least.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-26-2009 @ 4:56pm

Prop 48 was a tax cut and it led to a longish period of prosperity. In time (we're talking decades) the work done by Prop 48 was undermined through the increases of other taxes, which turned California into the basket case it is today.

Moral: it's not enough to prune the overgrown state once, it needs to be done every 10-15 years at least.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:29pm

Why is a new law a better solution than trashing old laws? Like all the liberal laws, this one uses synthetic means to achieve the desired end. Being that synthesis is one of my main gripes against liberalism, I fear that this law will only embarrass the free market and invite more liberal laws in its wake.

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:29pm

Why is a new law a better solution than trashing old laws? Like all the liberal laws, this one uses synthetic means to achieve the desired end. Being that synthesis is one of my main gripes against liberalism, I fear that this law will only embarrass the free market and invite more liberal laws in its wake.

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:39pm

And the debate over which to prune next should probably begin after each success.

by: Jesdisciple

10-26-2009 @ 5:39pm

And the debate over which to prune next should probably begin after each success.

by: Stein

10-26-2009 @ 7:26pm

"the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans" -- say rather that the author fails to prove it TO YOU. Various measurements are provided and you pooh-pooh them in turn. It sounds to me like your mind was already made up and nothing would convice you otherwise. To focus in on one, you say that "educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending" -- I take you to admit that it is therefore somewhat positively correlated.

by: Stein

10-26-2009 @ 7:26pm

"the author fails to prove that limiting the size of government has done any real damage to Coloradans" -- say rather that the author fails to prove it TO YOU. Various measurements are provided and you pooh-pooh them in turn. It sounds to me like your mind was already made up and nothing would convice you otherwise. To focus in on one, you say that "educational quality is only loosely related to raw spending" -- I take you to admit that it is therefore somewhat positively correlated.

by: MacArthur4

10-26-2009 @ 7:28pm

What Bob did was leave out the on going problem in Washington State. We just had a legislature that spent way beyond their means and disregarded a previous spending cap put on it by the citizenery. The Governor is speaking of raising taxes after promising of not doing so. Our unemployment is almost 10 percent , the tax structure is so regressive our biggest employer has started leaving our state . Boeing.

93% of Washington state's NFIB members supported the endorsement of Initiative 1033

by: MacArthur4

10-26-2009 @ 7:28pm

What Bob did was leave out the on going problem in Washington State. We just had a legislature that spent way beyond their means and disregarded a previous spending cap put on it by the citizenery. The Governor is speaking of raising taxes after promising of not doing so. Our unemployment is almost 10 percent , the tax structure is so regressive our biggest employer has started leaving our state . Boeing.

93% of Washington state's NFIB members supported the endorsement of Initiative 1033

by: JacobS

10-26-2009 @ 9:15pm

This is the only question on the ballot that I still haven't decided on. It's likely to essentially dismantle government by town meeting and I'm not sure I'm in favor of that, but state spending has been out of control for years, and there's no sign that it will get better.

It's also a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maine (I don't know much about Washington's law) will be locked into recession level spending. Spending and taxes can be raised at any time, it will just take an up or down vote from the people. All the politicians need to do is to convince the voters that the money they're asking for is necessary, it's pretty simple.

It could be helpful at the local level as well. The way it works now is that a few people demand more money for a program or service and they get it; nobody goes to all the meetings just to say that they don't want any changes. Requiring the referendum will be an exercise in democratic governance, an improvement over the interest group governance that we have now.

by: JacobS

10-26-2009 @ 9:15pm

This is the only question on the ballot that I still haven't decided on. It's likely to essentially dismantle government by town meeting and I'm not sure I'm in favor of that, but state spending has been out of control for years, and there's no sign that it will get better.

It's also a bit disingenuous to suggest that Maine (I don't know much about Washington's law) will be locked into recession level spending. Spending and taxes can be raised at any time, it will just take an up or down vote from the people. All the politicians need to do is to convince the voters that the money they're asking for is necessary, it's pretty simple.

It could be helpful at the local level as well. The way it works now is that a few people demand more money for a program or service and they get it; nobody goes to all the meetings just to say that they don't want any changes. Requiring the referendum will be an exercise in democratic governance, an improvement over the interest group governance that we have now.

by: elisiah

10-26-2009 @ 9:58pm

all the FACTS are so nice to have. sojourners should maybe try it once or twice. It would make the discussion much easier to say the least. And more honest and open

by: elisiah

10-26-2009 @ 9:58pm

all the FACTS are so nice to have. sojourners should maybe try it once or twice. It would make the discussion much easier to say the least. And more honest and open

by: MacArthur5

10-26-2009 @ 11:14pm

It is a liberal perspective. It is meant to be a promotion of one view with out regards to being fair. You will be deleted or kicked off if you persist.

by: MacArthur5

10-26-2009 @ 11:14pm

It is a liberal perspective. It is meant to be a promotion of one view with out regards to being fair. You will be deleted or kicked off if you persist.

by: letjusticerolldown

10-27-2009 @ 5:18am

I'll give an honest and ignorant response.

Knowing nothing about the Taxpayer Bill of Rights--I'm inclined to support it given this badly argued position.

I don't know Bob Greenstein. But he is founder and executive of an impressive sounding organization--so I presume he knows what he is talking about.

When citizens take to the streets and experts tell them to sit down and shut-up, without bothering to explain why they are in the streets marching, I go with the citizens.

The citizens aren't required to be sane. Experts are.

When the citizens appear more reasoned than the expert--I go with the citizens.

i.e. Please write another article explaining what these measures are and what those behind them wish to accomplish; and then take issue with the outcomes or means or whatever you want. I will gladly consider.

by: letjusticerolldown

10-27-2009 @ 5:18am

I'll give an honest and ignorant response.

Knowing nothing about the Taxpayer Bill of Rights--I'm inclined to support it given this badly argued position.

I don't know Bob Greenstein. But he is founder and executive of an impressive sounding organization--so I presume he knows what he is talking about.

When citizens take to the streets and experts tell them to sit down and shut-up, without bothering to explain why they are in the streets marching, I go with the citizens.

The citizens aren't required to be sane. Experts are.

When the citizens appear more reasoned than the expert--I go with the citizens.

i.e. Please write another article explaining what these measures are and what those behind them wish to accomplish; and then take issue with the outcomes or means or whatever you want. I will gladly consider.

by: pooch

10-27-2009 @ 11:02am

I'm just amazed Mr. Greenstein wrote an entire article without invoking "the least of these" to justify higher taxes and greater government intervention.

by: pooch

10-27-2009 @ 11:02am

I'm just amazed Mr. Greenstein wrote an entire article without invoking "the least of these" to justify higher taxes and greater government intervention.

by: jon_kelly

10-27-2009 @ 1:42pm

I am a Colorado resident who grew up on this state and presently serve on the school board of a small rural school district. Without question TABOR has been and continues to be an unmitigated disaster for Colorado. It has crushed the states' transportation infrastructure, disproportionately devastated school districts in less affluent areas of the state, gutted higher education and at present is hurling us toward a fiscal disaster that our state legislature and governor are largely powerless to avert. TABOR takes away our elected representative's discretion to govern, budget and tax, leading to political and fiscal gridlock at a time that swift and creative action is demanded. By removing the ability of elected representatives to effectively govern, TABOR violates one the most basic of our constitutional rights: that of a republican form of government. Unless TABOR is repealed--and quickly--Colorado will be in line behind California as the next failed state. If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office. A TABOR-like constitutional amendment is not the answer to your concerns-TABOR is a Pandora's box of unforeseen consequences that will be borne most by those who can least afford them. The damage it will cause will take a generation or two to repair.

by: jon_kelly

10-27-2009 @ 1:42pm

I am a Colorado resident who grew up on this state and presently serve on the school board of a small rural school district. Without question TABOR has been and continues to be an unmitigated disaster for Colorado. It has crushed the states' transportation infrastructure, disproportionately devastated school districts in less affluent areas of the state, gutted higher education and at present is hurling us toward a fiscal disaster that our state legislature and governor are largely powerless to avert. TABOR takes away our elected representative's discretion to govern, budget and tax, leading to political and fiscal gridlock at a time that swift and creative action is demanded. By removing the ability of elected representatives to effectively govern, TABOR violates one the most basic of our constitutional rights: that of a republican form of government. Unless TABOR is repealed--and quickly--Colorado will be in line behind California as the next failed state. If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office. A TABOR-like constitutional amendment is not the answer to your concerns-TABOR is a Pandora's box of unforeseen consequences that will be borne most by those who can least afford them. The damage it will cause will take a generation or two to repair.

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-27-2009 @ 2:36pm

Well, you probably should give yourself time to see which way the "Government is Good" people turn, but keeping the state in check requires fairly constant monitoring.

LV

by: Lord_Voldemort

10-27-2009 @ 2:36pm

Well, you probably should give yourself time to see which way the "Government is Good" people turn, but keeping the state in check requires fairly constant monitoring.

LV

by: Jesdisciple

10-27-2009 @ 4:27pm

If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office.And get the new ones to repeal the laws that cause the problems which TABOR is supposed to fix.

by: Jesdisciple

10-27-2009 @ 4:27pm

If you think you are taxed too much in Maine or Washington, you already have a solution-vote your state representatives out of office.And get the new ones to repeal the laws that cause the problems which TABOR is supposed to fix.

by: JacobS

10-27-2009 @ 7:05pm

It's worth noting that TABOR is not up as a constitutional amendment in Maine, it's only a citizen's initiative. The legislature could overturn TABOR before it ever took effect. That's one reason I'm not too concerned about it turning into a Colorado-like situation, it will only take a majority in the legislature and the governor's signature to overturn it. What it will do, however, is send a message to Augusta that we're fed up with taxes, and we're fed up with the state's frivolous spending on social programs.

by: JacobS

10-27-2009 @ 7:05pm

It's worth noting that TABOR is not up as a constitutional amendment in Maine, it's only a citizen's initiative. The legislature could overturn TABOR before it ever took effect. That's one reason I'm not too concerned about it turning into a Colorado-like situation, it will only take a majority in the legislature and the governor's signature to overturn it. What it will do, however, is send a message to Augusta that we're fed up with taxes, and we're fed up with the state's frivolous spending on social programs.

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 4:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view of Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 4:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view of Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 6:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view which Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!

by: DJ9791

10-30-2009 @ 6:29pm

While several of you make valid points, I can tell you that here in Colorado TABOR has disproportionately affected the poorest and rural areas, particularly in education, public safety and health care. Lord_Voldemort and others beat the anti-government drum, with some reason, but offer only the simplistic view which Libertarians and others offer...and no solutions. Simply throw everything out and we'll all live happily ever after...too bad if you can't get a decent paying job or have serious health issues and no way to get insurance. You made "Poor life choices" and no taxpayer should have to pay to help you. (The quote is from Douglas Bruce, the author and champoin of Colorado's TABOR).

We don't believe that any "government" other than that of Our Lord can truly rule the world with righteousness. Nevertheless, until He comes, we are stuck with what we poor humans can accomplish...and dismissing government's ability to govern because representative don't do their jobs, is simplistic, foolish and selfish...much like the elected representatives which TABOR amendments are meant to reign in!

Pray for Peace and Dare to Act!