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The Health-Care Roller Coaster Rolls On

We continue the roller coaster ride that we hope will end with universal or near universal coverage for health care in the United States. Those of us who favor, at the very least, a public option had reason to be glad on one day and reason to be sad the next. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid one day says he will present a bill to the full Senate containing a public option that will also allow states the opportunity to opt out. We are glad. Such a proposal ought to be able to get 60 votes to stop a filibuster. The next day, Senator Joseph Lieberman, an independent from Connecticut who caucuses with the Democrats, says he will join the Republicans to filibuster this proposal. Our hopes take a hit.

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Recent polls show that most Americans favor a public option, but the road to this end remains strewn with obstacles. The obstacles seem to not only be the various details of the plan, but certain presumptions of our lawmakers.

Many of them say that a government run plan would raise the national debt. Senator Lieberman is quoted in The New York Times saying that a public option would be "another entitlement program that will end up increasing the national debt." The logic that argues against this position is: the cost of care for the uninsured drives up costs for those who are insured because these costs are passed on to the insured. Once everyone is insured, there will be no need to pass on these costs. More people will have access to primary care and prevention screenings which mean that health problems can be detected earlier when treatment is cheaper. Thus, universal coverage ought to bring down costs for everyone.

Some Senators are concerned about affordability. This is a reasonable objection. Citizens will be mandated to buy insurance. The question is whether people who are already spending all of one paycheck to get to the next paycheck can afford another monthly bill. This is one reason why a single payer system financed through a value added tax is preferable. It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages. We would pay for health care when we shop.

Our lawmakers are worried about maintaining insurance companies and their profits. Without a public option, health-care reform becomes yet another way to transfer wealth from the bottom to the top. We have not settled the question whether basic health care ought to be subject to the profit motive.

So we ride the roller coaster over policy details. The larger moral questions of health care as a human right, the role of government to provide for the health of citizens, the responsibility of lawmakers to insist upon efficient government for the sake of the common good, go unaddressed.

My question is: what is the larger moral question that our Congress members are willing to lose their seats over? What conviction, faith, transcendence, divine command are they willing to hear and to take their political career up Mt. Moriah to sacrifice if need be?

Dr. Valerie Elverton Dixon is an independent scholar who publishes lectures and essays at JustPeaceTheory.com. She received her Ph.D. in religion and society from Temple University and taught Christian ethics at United Theological Seminary and Andover Newton Theological School.

Sojourners relies on the support of readers like you to sustain our message and ministry.

by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:14am

Totally agree. I remember thinking about this when the dems were threatening to filibuster one of Bush's Supreme Courts nominees (don't even remember which one anymore, it's been so long). I remember wondering what the political grandstanding would look like if Senators had to commit to an actual filibuster, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

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by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:20am

"This is one reason why a single payer system financed through a value added tax is preferable. It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages. We would pay for health care when we shop."

This happens to be one of the arguments for the Fair Tax. It would release employers from the obligation to withdraw payroll taxes and free them to increase wages (in addition to increasing the paycheck of all of their workers). We would pay for, well, everything when we shop.

Are you willing to get behind that? Serious question, not a backhanded rebuttal.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-02-2009 @ 2:49pm

Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of "immorality"?

No because whatever point you just tried to make didn't seem to fit with mine whatsoever.

I don't necessarily consider any freedom mine. They are all mine because I'm in this nation, but viewing them as others' takes away my selfish motives for expanding freedom. I believe in equality of freedom, and that's how I interpret it.

For example: I believe a Christian should have the right to pray on a loudspeaker at a football game. I also believe Muslims should have the same right. If someone were to claim one but not the other they would probably have selfish/sectarian motives.

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom" engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is either the prerequisite for the other.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be locked up or pick-pocketed? Would you object to encroachments upon your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness only based on our laws? Welfare is an encroachment, despite its noble aim.

Now you might object that the folks you're not respecting didn't do what Jesus commanded. So? He didn't give such a qualification.

Not to mention all the things free-market theorists say government does to the economy and the libertarian complaints against large government.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 1:21pm

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

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by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:00am

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012.

Says who?

And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).

No, he would be less at home with the Republicans; he's a liberal libertarian if I recall correctly. Meaning he agrees with the Republicans (mostly) on economic issues and the Democrats on social issues.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:04am

According to liberal sources I read yesterday while researching the "silent filibuster" mentioned by Ngchen, the majority of folks actually want the bill... But let me guess - the Democrats are following the biddings of a few tycoons rather than their personal opinions?

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:18am

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?

Probably so...

What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people?

First off, I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached upon. And no, I wouldn't want to translate Bill Gates' freedom into John Doe's quality of life; it's too much control for Big Brother to have. I would probably be one of the folks benefiting from the bill and, incidentally, Bill Gates uses his freedom for good.

What does morality have to do with freedom?

Are you serious?

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by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:00am

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012.

Says who?

And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).

No, he would be less at home with the Republicans; he's a liberal libertarian if I recall correctly. Meaning he agrees with the Republicans (mostly) on economic issues and the Democrats on social issues.

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:36am

The classic argument for why, if we have some sort of "shall issue" rule, that we then MUST require insurance purchase is due to a perverse incentive. Without such a rule, people can easily refuse to buy insurance, and only buy "insurance" when they actually get sick. Under such circumstances, no insurer can survive. Sort of like if people can buy car insurance AFTER a wreck, and expect the insurance to pay for the wreck. Every country that has a "shall issue" insurance rule has also some sort of requirement for carrying insurance, probably for this very reason.

BTW, Uncle Sam does already require us to do certain things such as jury duty, educating and vaccinating kids, and so on.

(These ideas are not mine - I read them at findlaw.com, courtesy of an economist/lawyer there.)

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:04am

According to liberal sources I read yesterday while researching the "silent filibuster" mentioned by Ngchen, the majority of folks actually want the bill... But let me guess - the Democrats are following the biddings of a few tycoons rather than their personal opinions?

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by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:43am

Actually, it's generally the Republicans that are trying to filibuster the bill for various reasons. Some of it could be following the tycoons, some could be due to philosophical reasons, some may be for political reasons, and some may be because they're genuinely convinced that the (actually there is not currently one bill, FWIW) bill is a bad idea.

Lieberman joining the filibuster is considered quite an extreme move by someone who at least used to consider himself a Democrat. Generally, except in extreme cases, one who opposes something supported by one's party can cast a contrarian vote, but is expected to not take measures beyond that such as filibustering. I'm sure many Democrats are pondering what actions (say stripping Lieberman of committee spots/charimanships) they should take in order to maintain some form of party discipline.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:18am

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?

Probably so...

What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people?

First off, I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached upon. And no, I wouldn't want to translate Bill Gates' freedom into John Doe's quality of life; it's too much control for Big Brother to have. I would probably be one of the folks benefiting from the bill and, incidentally, Bill Gates uses his freedom for good.

What does morality have to do with freedom?

Are you serious?

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 2:46pm

I can't remember where and don't have time to hunt it down, but I read there were 2 or 3 other Dems in on it. Some are saying Reid is secretly with them.

And apparently they're ready to forfeit their chairs.

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:36am

The classic argument for why, if we have some sort of "shall issue" rule, that we then MUST require insurance purchase is due to a perverse incentive. Without such a rule, people can easily refuse to buy insurance, and only buy "insurance" when they actually get sick. Under such circumstances, no insurer can survive. Sort of like if people can buy car insurance AFTER a wreck, and expect the insurance to pay for the wreck. Every country that has a "shall issue" insurance rule has also some sort of requirement for carrying insurance, probably for this very reason.

BTW, Uncle Sam does already require us to do certain things such as jury duty, educating and vaccinating kids, and so on.

(These ideas are not mine - I read them at findlaw.com, courtesy of an economist/lawyer there.)

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:43am

Actually, it's generally the Republicans that are trying to filibuster the bill for various reasons. Some of it could be following the tycoons, some could be due to philosophical reasons, some may be for political reasons, and some may be because they're genuinely convinced that the (actually there is not currently one bill, FWIW) bill is a bad idea.

Lieberman joining the filibuster is considered quite an extreme move by someone who at least used to consider himself a Democrat. Generally, except in extreme cases, one who opposes something supported by one's party can cast a contrarian vote, but is expected to not take measures beyond that such as filibustering. I'm sure many Democrats are pondering what actions (say stripping Lieberman of committee spots/charimanships) they should take in order to maintain some form of party discipline.

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by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 2:46pm

I can't remember where and don't have time to hunt it down, but I read there were 2 or 3 other Dems in on it. Some are saying Reid is secretly with them.

And apparently they're ready to forfeit their chairs.

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by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 11:21am

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 11:21am

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

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by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-02-2009 @ 12:49pm

Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of "immorality"?

No because whatever point you just tried to make didn't seem to fit with mine whatsoever.

I don't necessarily consider any freedom mine. They are all mine because I'm in this nation, but viewing them as others' takes away my selfish motives for expanding freedom. I believe in equality of freedom, and that's how I interpret it.

For example: I believe a Christian should have the right to pray on a loudspeaker at a football game. I also believe Muslims should have the same right. If someone were to claim one but not the other they would probably have selfish/sectarian motives.

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom" engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is either the prerequisite for the other.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be locked up or pick-pocketed? Would you object to encroachments upon your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness only based on our laws? Welfare is an encroachment, despite its noble aim.

Now you might object that the folks you're not respecting didn't do what Jesus commanded. So? He didn't give such a qualification.

Not to mention all the things free-market theorists say government does to the economy and the libertarian complaints against large government.

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by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-02-2009 @ 2:49pm

Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of "immorality"?

No because whatever point you just tried to make didn't seem to fit with mine whatsoever.

I don't necessarily consider any freedom mine. They are all mine because I'm in this nation, but viewing them as others' takes away my selfish motives for expanding freedom. I believe in equality of freedom, and that's how I interpret it.

For example: I believe a Christian should have the right to pray on a loudspeaker at a football game. I also believe Muslims should have the same right. If someone were to claim one but not the other they would probably have selfish/sectarian motives.

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom" engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is either the prerequisite for the other.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be locked up or pick-pocketed? Would you object to encroachments upon your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness only based on our laws? Welfare is an encroachment, despite its noble aim.

Now you might object that the folks you're not respecting didn't do what Jesus commanded. So? He didn't give such a qualification.

Not to mention all the things free-market theorists say government does to the economy and the libertarian complaints against large government.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 1:21pm

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

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by: Jesdisciple

10-29-2009 @ 2:40pm

The only politician I respect for honesty is actually Lieberman... Good luck finding any others who break with the herd because of their personal beliefs.

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:31pm

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

You hit the nail on the head in terms of highlighting the inherent tension between democracy and elections. When should an elected official vote his/her conscience, versus following the majority views of constituents when the two are in conflict? IMHO, leadership is standing up for something that one knows is right, even when it's unpopular. Of course, for the officials to keep their jobs, such stands can be taken only rarely. When such a stand is taken, is it democracy? No. But we have elections and mostly decide things not by referendum precisely because "too much democracy" actually can be detrimental to good governance, putting the public welfare at the mercy of whatever group can fire up the largest mob for the time being.

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:35pm

Speaking of which, I have often wondered why the US Senate doesn't go back to the 19th century filibuster rules, or something similar. I've heard that due to the abuse of the modern, "silent" filibuster, anything and everything takes a de facto 60 votes to pass. There have been more filibusters in something like one Congress than in the entire 19th century combined! Actually forcing would-be filibusterers talk nonstop to block whatever they wanted to block would cut back on its abuse, while still protecting the rights of a truly determined minority. And yes, were the shoe on the other foot (say we had a Republican Senate), I would still be for this.

by: Jesdisciple

10-29-2009 @ 2:40pm

The only politician I respect for honesty is actually Lieberman... Good luck finding any others who break with the herd because of their personal beliefs.

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:31pm

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

You hit the nail on the head in terms of highlighting the inherent tension between democracy and elections. When should an elected official vote his/her conscience, versus following the majority views of constituents when the two are in conflict? IMHO, leadership is standing up for something that one knows is right, even when it's unpopular. Of course, for the officials to keep their jobs, such stands can be taken only rarely. When such a stand is taken, is it democracy? No. But we have elections and mostly decide things not by referendum precisely because "too much democracy" actually can be detrimental to good governance, putting the public welfare at the mercy of whatever group can fire up the largest mob for the time being.

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:35pm

Speaking of which, I have often wondered why the US Senate doesn't go back to the 19th century filibuster rules, or something similar. I've heard that due to the abuse of the modern, "silent" filibuster, anything and everything takes a de facto 60 votes to pass. There have been more filibusters in something like one Congress than in the entire 19th century combined! Actually forcing would-be filibusterers talk nonstop to block whatever they wanted to block would cut back on its abuse, while still protecting the rights of a truly determined minority. And yes, were the shoe on the other foot (say we had a Republican Senate), I would still be for this.

by: nuclearferret

10-29-2009 @ 5:10pm

"the cost of care for the uninsured drives up costs for those who are insured because these costs are passed on to the insured. Once everyone is insured, there will be no need to pass on these costs."

This argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with the national, Federal debt. It involves cost-shifting from one set of users to another set of users of the health care system. A public option shifts that cost to the Federal government, hence the increase in the entitlement program.

"More people will have access to primary care and prevention screenings which mean that health problems can be detected earlier when treatment is cheaper. Thus, universal coverage ought to bring down costs for everyone."

Actually, studies have shown just the opposite. Preventive care might be better health care; it is not cheaper, because people will test positive in various screenings and be treated for things that would not have been seen and thus not treated at all...and yet never develop into anything needing treatment either.

"It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages."

It could, but it does not necessarily follow. US employers actually see this as an opportunity to increase international competitiveness by reducing costs for labor compensation, just as it does for Japan and other countries. Employees will be the same or better off (they have insurance and pay still) and the employer's compensation costs could drop 20-40%. But the insurance will have to be paid for; the question is, will the increase in foreign markets result in enough benefit to grow the tax base to pay for greater govt outlays? It could.

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10-29-2009 @ 5:39pm

Why not let the Church be responsible for the health care of people and take government out of the picture all together. Jesus is the Lord of his Church and is bringing his kingdom into the world and uses his people, so let the Church be responsible and leave the government out all together.

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by: nuclearferret

10-29-2009 @ 5:10pm

"the cost of care for the uninsured drives up costs for those who are insured because these costs are passed on to the insured. Once everyone is insured, there will be no need to pass on these costs."

This argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with the national, Federal debt. It involves cost-shifting from one set of users to another set of users of the health care system. A public option shifts that cost to the Federal government, hence the increase in the entitlement program.

"More people will have access to primary care and prevention screenings which mean that health problems can be detected earlier when treatment is cheaper. Thus, universal coverage ought to bring down costs for everyone."

Actually, studies have shown just the opposite. Preventive care might be better health care; it is not cheaper, because people will test positive in various screenings and be treated for things that would not have been seen and thus not treated at all...and yet never develop into anything needing treatment either.

"It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages."

It could, but it does not necessarily follow. US employers actually see this as an opportunity to increase international competitiveness by reducing costs for labor compensation, just as it does for Japan and other countries. Employees will be the same or better off (they have insurance and pay still) and the employer's compensation costs could drop 20-40%. But the insurance will have to be paid for; the question is, will the increase in foreign markets result in enough benefit to grow the tax base to pay for greater govt outlays? It could.

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10-29-2009 @ 6:06pm

Is there any moral dimension to Uncle Sam requiring me to purchase insurance?

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by: Jesdisciple

10-29-2009 @ 2:40pm

The only politician I respect for honesty is actually Lieberman... Good luck finding any others who break with the herd because of their personal beliefs.

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

by: Jesdisciple

10-29-2009 @ 2:40pm

The only politician I respect for honesty is actually Lieberman... Good luck finding any others who break with the herd because of their personal beliefs.

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:31pm

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

You hit the nail on the head in terms of highlighting the inherent tension between democracy and elections. When should an elected official vote his/her conscience, versus following the majority views of constituents when the two are in conflict? IMHO, leadership is standing up for something that one knows is right, even when it's unpopular. Of course, for the officials to keep their jobs, such stands can be taken only rarely. When such a stand is taken, is it democracy? No. But we have elections and mostly decide things not by referendum precisely because "too much democracy" actually can be detrimental to good governance, putting the public welfare at the mercy of whatever group can fire up the largest mob for the time being.

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:31pm

Then again, I wonder how high public opinion should be as a priority. If personal beliefs override it, do we have democracy?

You hit the nail on the head in terms of highlighting the inherent tension between democracy and elections. When should an elected official vote his/her conscience, versus following the majority views of constituents when the two are in conflict? IMHO, leadership is standing up for something that one knows is right, even when it's unpopular. Of course, for the officials to keep their jobs, such stands can be taken only rarely. When such a stand is taken, is it democracy? No. But we have elections and mostly decide things not by referendum precisely because "too much democracy" actually can be detrimental to good governance, putting the public welfare at the mercy of whatever group can fire up the largest mob for the time being.

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:35pm

Speaking of which, I have often wondered why the US Senate doesn't go back to the 19th century filibuster rules, or something similar. I've heard that due to the abuse of the modern, "silent" filibuster, anything and everything takes a de facto 60 votes to pass. There have been more filibusters in something like one Congress than in the entire 19th century combined! Actually forcing would-be filibusterers talk nonstop to block whatever they wanted to block would cut back on its abuse, while still protecting the rights of a truly determined minority. And yes, were the shoe on the other foot (say we had a Republican Senate), I would still be for this.

by: Ngchen

10-29-2009 @ 4:35pm

Speaking of which, I have often wondered why the US Senate doesn't go back to the 19th century filibuster rules, or something similar. I've heard that due to the abuse of the modern, "silent" filibuster, anything and everything takes a de facto 60 votes to pass. There have been more filibusters in something like one Congress than in the entire 19th century combined! Actually forcing would-be filibusterers talk nonstop to block whatever they wanted to block would cut back on its abuse, while still protecting the rights of a truly determined minority. And yes, were the shoe on the other foot (say we had a Republican Senate), I would still be for this.

by: nuclearferret

10-29-2009 @ 5:10pm

"the cost of care for the uninsured drives up costs for those who are insured because these costs are passed on to the insured. Once everyone is insured, there will be no need to pass on these costs."

This argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with the national, Federal debt. It involves cost-shifting from one set of users to another set of users of the health care system. A public option shifts that cost to the Federal government, hence the increase in the entitlement program.

"More people will have access to primary care and prevention screenings which mean that health problems can be detected earlier when treatment is cheaper. Thus, universal coverage ought to bring down costs for everyone."

Actually, studies have shown just the opposite. Preventive care might be better health care; it is not cheaper, because people will test positive in various screenings and be treated for things that would not have been seen and thus not treated at all...and yet never develop into anything needing treatment either.

"It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages."

It could, but it does not necessarily follow. US employers actually see this as an opportunity to increase international competitiveness by reducing costs for labor compensation, just as it does for Japan and other countries. Employees will be the same or better off (they have insurance and pay still) and the employer's compensation costs could drop 20-40%. But the insurance will have to be paid for; the question is, will the increase in foreign markets result in enough benefit to grow the tax base to pay for greater govt outlays? It could.

by: nuclearferret

10-29-2009 @ 5:10pm

"the cost of care for the uninsured drives up costs for those who are insured because these costs are passed on to the insured. Once everyone is insured, there will be no need to pass on these costs."

This argument has absolutely NOTHING to do with the national, Federal debt. It involves cost-shifting from one set of users to another set of users of the health care system. A public option shifts that cost to the Federal government, hence the increase in the entitlement program.

"More people will have access to primary care and prevention screenings which mean that health problems can be detected earlier when treatment is cheaper. Thus, universal coverage ought to bring down costs for everyone."

Actually, studies have shown just the opposite. Preventive care might be better health care; it is not cheaper, because people will test positive in various screenings and be treated for things that would not have been seen and thus not treated at all...and yet never develop into anything needing treatment either.

"It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages."

It could, but it does not necessarily follow. US employers actually see this as an opportunity to increase international competitiveness by reducing costs for labor compensation, just as it does for Japan and other countries. Employees will be the same or better off (they have insurance and pay still) and the employer's compensation costs could drop 20-40%. But the insurance will have to be paid for; the question is, will the increase in foreign markets result in enough benefit to grow the tax base to pay for greater govt outlays? It could.

by: Paul Van Maaren

10-29-2009 @ 5:39pm

Why not let the Church be responsible for the health care of people and take government out of the picture all together. Jesus is the Lord of his Church and is bringing his kingdom into the world and uses his people, so let the Church be responsible and leave the government out all together.

by: Paul Van Maaren

10-29-2009 @ 5:39pm

Why not let the Church be responsible for the health care of people and take government out of the picture all together. Jesus is the Lord of his Church and is bringing his kingdom into the world and uses his people, so let the Church be responsible and leave the government out all together.

by: JacobS

10-29-2009 @ 6:06pm

Is there any moral dimension to Uncle Sam requiring me to purchase insurance?

by: JacobS

10-29-2009 @ 6:06pm

Is there any moral dimension to Uncle Sam requiring me to purchase insurance?

by: uberVU - social comments

10-29-2009 @ 6:43pm

Social comments and analytics for this post...

This post was mentioned on Twitter by vedixon: Thinking about healthcare reform. A blog post. http://bit.ly/38HIxt pass it on...

by: krissya

10-29-2009 @ 9:11pm

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012. He's not "breaking with the herd" He's joining republicans- his future party. And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).
I respect a renegade politician but it's not Lieberman. Lieberman just wants the publicity, as he did when he campaigned for McCain. He's sour at the party that kicked him out (when he lost the democratic primary in his senate race), and he wants revenge.
Democrats just need to play mean with Lieberman--- or play very very nice to Olympia Snowe to get her vote.

by: krissya

10-29-2009 @ 9:11pm

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012. He's not "breaking with the herd" He's joining republicans- his future party. And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).
I respect a renegade politician but it's not Lieberman. Lieberman just wants the publicity, as he did when he campaigned for McCain. He's sour at the party that kicked him out (when he lost the democratic primary in his senate race), and he wants revenge.
Democrats just need to play mean with Lieberman--- or play very very nice to Olympia Snowe to get her vote.

by: scat

10-29-2009 @ 10:29pm

The Church has had 2000 years to answer that responsibility, yet we still have millions of people unable to get the care they need.

by: scat

10-29-2009 @ 10:29pm

The Church has had 2000 years to answer that responsibility, yet we still have millions of people unable to get the care they need.

by: scat

10-29-2009 @ 10:44pm

One thing that a lot of people miss in the discussion is the progress that has been made in both diagnosis and treatment in just the last few years. This summer, two of my friends had gall bladder surgery as outpatient treatment. They were home just a few hours after surgery, able to go to work in a couple of days and no scarring. A few years ago that would have been at least a week in the hospital and weeks recovering at home. The treatment was cheaper, faster and less debillitating today.

In Japan, where I believe they have single-payer universal coverage, the government refused to pay $1500 for MRI's, so the biotech people there came up with a way to do the same test for $99 and still make a profit. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

The way people carry on here, it seems they think we are a bunch of idiots that can't do things as well or better than other countries.

by: scat

10-29-2009 @ 10:44pm

One thing that a lot of people miss in the discussion is the progress that has been made in both diagnosis and treatment in just the last few years. This summer, two of my friends had gall bladder surgery as outpatient treatment. They were home just a few hours after surgery, able to go to work in a couple of days and no scarring. A few years ago that would have been at least a week in the hospital and weeks recovering at home. The treatment was cheaper, faster and less debillitating today.

In Japan, where I believe they have single-payer universal coverage, the government refused to pay $1500 for MRI's, so the biotech people there came up with a way to do the same test for $99 and still make a profit. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.

The way people carry on here, it seems they think we are a bunch of idiots that can't do things as well or better than other countries.

by: duhsciple

10-29-2009 @ 11:24pm

What do you think?

by: duhsciple

10-29-2009 @ 11:24pm

What do you think?

by: duhsciple

10-29-2009 @ 11:24pm

What would that look like? How would the Church provide the health care?

by: duhsciple

10-29-2009 @ 11:24pm

What would that look like? How would the Church provide the health care?

by: tam73

10-30-2009 @ 1:05am

We still have a republic where the elected legislators are supposed to have the freedom to exercise wisdom and judgement in deciding issues. Unfortunately the career politicians on both sides of the aisle are meteorologists who follow the political winds or influence. The arrogance of some of the relic legislators is hard to take.

Our nation has abandoned the gospel and needs to repent.

I think Joe Lieberman is an honest guy who is sour at the party that left him for a socialist agenda. Evidently the people of Connecticut agreed with him. Chris Dodd had better watch out too or he might be without a chair when the music stops next election. At least he will have a cheap mortgage.

by: tam73

10-30-2009 @ 1:05am

We still have a republic where the elected legislators are supposed to have the freedom to exercise wisdom and judgement in deciding issues. Unfortunately the career politicians on both sides of the aisle are meteorologists who follow the political winds or influence. The arrogance of some of the relic legislators is hard to take.

Our nation has abandoned the gospel and needs to repent.

I think Joe Lieberman is an honest guy who is sour at the party that left him for a socialist agenda. Evidently the people of Connecticut agreed with him. Chris Dodd had better watch out too or he might be without a chair when the music stops next election. At least he will have a cheap mortgage.

by: Stein

10-30-2009 @ 10:41am

Is there a moral dimension to the gov requiring me to wear seat belts?

Define "moral".

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral? What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people? What does morality have to do with freedom?

by: Stein

10-30-2009 @ 10:41am

Is there a moral dimension to the gov requiring me to wear seat belts?

Define "moral".

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral? What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people? What does morality have to do with freedom?

by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:14am

Totally agree. I remember thinking about this when the dems were threatening to filibuster one of Bush's Supreme Courts nominees (don't even remember which one anymore, it's been so long). I remember wondering what the political grandstanding would look like if Senators had to commit to an actual filibuster, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:14am

Totally agree. I remember thinking about this when the dems were threatening to filibuster one of Bush's Supreme Courts nominees (don't even remember which one anymore, it's been so long). I remember wondering what the political grandstanding would look like if Senators had to commit to an actual filibuster, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.

by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:20am

"This is one reason why a single payer system financed through a value added tax is preferable. It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages. We would pay for health care when we shop."

This happens to be one of the arguments for the Fair Tax. It would release employers from the obligation to withdraw payroll taxes and free them to increase wages (in addition to increasing the paycheck of all of their workers). We would pay for, well, everything when we shop.

Are you willing to get behind that? Serious question, not a backhanded rebuttal.

by: BluesPianist

10-30-2009 @ 11:20am

"This is one reason why a single payer system financed through a value added tax is preferable. It would release employers from the obligation to provide health insurance, and free them to increase wages. We would pay for health care when we shop."

This happens to be one of the arguments for the Fair Tax. It would release employers from the obligation to withdraw payroll taxes and free them to increase wages (in addition to increasing the paycheck of all of their workers). We would pay for, well, everything when we shop.

Are you willing to get behind that? Serious question, not a backhanded rebuttal.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:00am

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012.

Says who?

And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).

No, he would be less at home with the Republicans; he's a liberal libertarian if I recall correctly. Meaning he agrees with the Republicans (mostly) on economic issues and the Democrats on social issues.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:00am

Lieberman is running for republican VP in 2012.

Says who?

And philosophically- republican is his party even now, but he needs to caucus with the democrats to keep his committee chairmanships and democrats need him for the 60th vote (which he is not providing on this issue).

No, he would be less at home with the Republicans; he's a liberal libertarian if I recall correctly. Meaning he agrees with the Republicans (mostly) on economic issues and the Democrats on social issues.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:04am

According to liberal sources I read yesterday while researching the "silent filibuster" mentioned by Ngchen, the majority of folks actually want the bill... But let me guess - the Democrats are following the biddings of a few tycoons rather than their personal opinions?

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:04am

According to liberal sources I read yesterday while researching the "silent filibuster" mentioned by Ngchen, the majority of folks actually want the bill... But let me guess - the Democrats are following the biddings of a few tycoons rather than their personal opinions?

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:18am

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?

Probably so...

What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people?

First off, I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached upon. And no, I wouldn't want to translate Bill Gates' freedom into John Doe's quality of life; it's too much control for Big Brother to have. I would probably be one of the folks benefiting from the bill and, incidentally, Bill Gates uses his freedom for good.

What does morality have to do with freedom?

Are you serious?

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 3:18am

Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?

Probably so...

What if that constriction of personal freedom improves the quality of life for other people?

First off, I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached upon. And no, I wouldn't want to translate Bill Gates' freedom into John Doe's quality of life; it's too much control for Big Brother to have. I would probably be one of the folks benefiting from the bill and, incidentally, Bill Gates uses his freedom for good.

What does morality have to do with freedom?

Are you serious?

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:36am

The classic argument for why, if we have some sort of "shall issue" rule, that we then MUST require insurance purchase is due to a perverse incentive. Without such a rule, people can easily refuse to buy insurance, and only buy "insurance" when they actually get sick. Under such circumstances, no insurer can survive. Sort of like if people can buy car insurance AFTER a wreck, and expect the insurance to pay for the wreck. Every country that has a "shall issue" insurance rule has also some sort of requirement for carrying insurance, probably for this very reason.

BTW, Uncle Sam does already require us to do certain things such as jury duty, educating and vaccinating kids, and so on.

(These ideas are not mine - I read them at findlaw.com, courtesy of an economist/lawyer there.)

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:36am

The classic argument for why, if we have some sort of "shall issue" rule, that we then MUST require insurance purchase is due to a perverse incentive. Without such a rule, people can easily refuse to buy insurance, and only buy "insurance" when they actually get sick. Under such circumstances, no insurer can survive. Sort of like if people can buy car insurance AFTER a wreck, and expect the insurance to pay for the wreck. Every country that has a "shall issue" insurance rule has also some sort of requirement for carrying insurance, probably for this very reason.

BTW, Uncle Sam does already require us to do certain things such as jury duty, educating and vaccinating kids, and so on.

(These ideas are not mine - I read them at findlaw.com, courtesy of an economist/lawyer there.)

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:43am

Actually, it's generally the Republicans that are trying to filibuster the bill for various reasons. Some of it could be following the tycoons, some could be due to philosophical reasons, some may be for political reasons, and some may be because they're genuinely convinced that the (actually there is not currently one bill, FWIW) bill is a bad idea.

Lieberman joining the filibuster is considered quite an extreme move by someone who at least used to consider himself a Democrat. Generally, except in extreme cases, one who opposes something supported by one's party can cast a contrarian vote, but is expected to not take measures beyond that such as filibustering. I'm sure many Democrats are pondering what actions (say stripping Lieberman of committee spots/charimanships) they should take in order to maintain some form of party discipline.

by: Ngchen

10-31-2009 @ 11:43am

Actually, it's generally the Republicans that are trying to filibuster the bill for various reasons. Some of it could be following the tycoons, some could be due to philosophical reasons, some may be for political reasons, and some may be because they're genuinely convinced that the (actually there is not currently one bill, FWIW) bill is a bad idea.

Lieberman joining the filibuster is considered quite an extreme move by someone who at least used to consider himself a Democrat. Generally, except in extreme cases, one who opposes something supported by one's party can cast a contrarian vote, but is expected to not take measures beyond that such as filibustering. I'm sure many Democrats are pondering what actions (say stripping Lieberman of committee spots/charimanships) they should take in order to maintain some form of party discipline.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 2:46pm

I can't remember where and don't have time to hunt it down, but I read there were 2 or 3 other Dems in on it. Some are saying Reid is secretly with them.

And apparently they're ready to forfeit their chairs.

by: Jesdisciple

10-31-2009 @ 2:46pm

I can't remember where and don't have time to hunt it down, but I read there were 2 or 3 other Dems in on it. Some are saying Reid is secretly with them.

And apparently they're ready to forfeit their chairs.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 11:21am

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 11:21am

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-02-2009 @ 12:49pm

Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of "immorality"?

No because whatever point you just tried to make didn't seem to fit with mine whatsoever.

I don't necessarily consider any freedom mine. They are all mine because I'm in this nation, but viewing them as others' takes away my selfish motives for expanding freedom. I believe in equality of freedom, and that's how I interpret it.

For example: I believe a Christian should have the right to pray on a loudspeaker at a football game. I also believe Muslims should have the same right. If someone were to claim one but not the other they would probably have selfish/sectarian motives.

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom" engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is either the prerequisite for the other.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be locked up or pick-pocketed? Would you object to encroachments upon your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness only based on our laws? Welfare is an encroachment, despite its noble aim.

Now you might object that the folks you're not respecting didn't do what Jesus commanded. So? He didn't give such a qualification.

Not to mention all the things free-market theorists say government does to the economy and the libertarian complaints against large government.

by: Stein

11-02-2009 @ 1:21pm

"'Is everything that impinges on personal freedom immoral?' Probably
so..."
and
"I don't necessarily consider this my freedom that's being encroached
upon."

Herein lies the problem. You make a sweeping statement about the
overriding importance of freedom, but then reserve for yourself the
right to define what you "consider ... freedom" to mean.

That is unfair argumentation. Causes that you support are not immoral
because you don't "necessarily consider this my freedom that's being
encroached upon", but causes that you don't like stand accused of
immorality. Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of
"immorality"?

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom"
engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is
either the prerequisite for the other.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-02-2009 @ 2:49pm

Don't you see how unfair it is to leverage fine
definitional points about "freedom" into broad accusations of "immorality"?

No because whatever point you just tried to make didn't seem to fit with mine whatsoever.

I don't necessarily consider any freedom mine. They are all mine because I'm in this nation, but viewing them as others' takes away my selfish motives for expanding freedom. I believe in equality of freedom, and that's how I interpret it.

For example: I believe a Christian should have the right to pray on a loudspeaker at a football game. I also believe Muslims should have the same right. If someone were to claim one but not the other they would probably have selfish/sectarian motives.

By the way, I do ask with true sincerity the question of how "freedom" engages with "morality". They are obviously not identical, nor is either the prerequisite for the other.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Would you like to be locked up or pick-pocketed? Would you object to encroachments upon your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness only based on our laws? Welfare is an encroachment, despite its noble aim.

Now you might object that the folks you're not respecting didn't do what Jesus commanded. So? He didn't give such a qualification.

Not to mention all the things free-market theorists say government does to the economy and the libertarian complaints against large government.

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