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Deadly Viper Blind Spots: When Uninformed Intentions Have Hurtful Outcomes

One of the toughest parts of being the author of a book about racial reconciliation is that when the latest racial incident flares up, everyone expects you to chime in with your two cents. I'm feeling a bit penniless on this current one, but here goes anyway.

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The "current one" I'm talking about is the controversy surrounding a new book from Zondervan called Deadly Viper Character Assassins: A Kung Fu Survival Guide for Life & Leadership. The book, which was coauthored by Mike Foster and Jud Wilhite, uses images, symbols, and caricatures of Asian culture as a light-hearted vehicle for getting at the heavy issues of Christian integrity and character. Not surprisingly, the book has upset a fair number of Asian-American Christians, as well as many of us who are not Asian but who identify with the pain felt by our brothers and sisters who are offended by the book's use of stereotypical imagery and caricatures.

The book is clearly meant to be a fun exploration of character and leadership, and it has been praised by many for its fresh insights and clever presentation. But it appears the authors have inadvertently stumbled into thorny and treacherous territory that they did not know existed; they were simply trying to dispense timeless wisdom in a timely and accessible way. Well, now they know.

Ironically, one would think the book's publisher, Zondervan, would've better anticipated the Asian community's reaction to the book, given an earlier controversy that followed the publication of a book from its Youth Specialties branch. In that episode, Zondervan and Youth Specialities took heroic measures to publicly apologize and correct the offense at a considerable financial cost. Hopefully, this latest episode will have a similarly redemptive conclusion. Yet, I wonder if things could've been handled differently earlier on.

My friend Soong-Chan Rah, who has become one of the evangelical church's most vocal (and effective) activists on these types of issues, inspired this latest movement with his initial blog posts about the Deadly Viper book and a promotional video on Facebook. Soong-Chan's open letter to the authors and Zondervan is quite provocative. But what's most fascinating, and perhaps even instructive, are the slew of comments related to Soong-Chan's posts, as well as an evolving thread over at the Deadly Viper blog.

I must confess that I'm not totally comfortable with the way the protest has played out so far. It's not that I disagree with the gist of it. I think it's important to call attention to these types of things, especially when they're happening within the Christian community. However, my initial impression is that the high level of "shock and awe" that Soong-Chan and others have brought to this issue probably has been a bit overwhelming and confusing for Foster and Wilhite (though I think Zondervan should've seen it coming). Maybe I'm just feeling a little squeamish about this necessary phase of protest. I know that hard and unpleasant honesty must often precede genuine dialogue, repentance, and reconciliation. Still, I get the sense that Foster and Wilhite had no clue that their earnest effort to create something entertaining and edifying would be perceived as being wrongheaded and insensitive by so many. I'm sure it wasn't even on their radar that appropriating Asian culture carried with it an obligation to "take it seriously." They were simply parroting the stereotypes and jokes that are now so common in American pop culture.

Parodying Asian culture has become so commonplace in America that many of us naturally assume that the Asian community is in on the joke. When I was a child, I would watch Hong Kong Phooey every Saturday morning. Every kid on the playground wanted to be Bruce Lee. The Karate Kid movies ruled in the '80s. Last year Kung Fu Panda made hundreds of millions at the box office. And fried rice, egg rolls, and sushi are just as "American" as French fries, pizza, and tacos.

We take it all for granted, and I would surmise that many white Americans believe that Asians are now so assimilated into American life that they have no problem with the tongue-in-cheek references to their various cultural heritages. Many might assume that Asians, after all, are a peaceful people -- that they're certainly not as hyper-sensitive about race as (for instance) African Americans are. There are no Asian-American Jesse Jacksons or Al Sharptons -- at least not any who show up on our televisions complaining about something every other night.

So it must be rather jarring for some people to discover that 21st-century Asians can feel as marginalized and disrespected as other minority groups in America.

But, again, I don't want to ascribe any ill intent to Mike Foster, Jud Wilhite, and their book. I believe they innocently waded into these choppy waters. As a published author, I know the excitement of coming up with a good idea, toiling over the computer to get the words just right, seeing your publisher get behind your vision, watching as the design team comes up with a great cover and the marketing team develops a winning campaign. Ah, and nothing compares to that day when your finished book finally arrives. Holding it, staring at it, flipping through its crisp pages is pretty much all you're physically and mentally able to do those first few hours after receiving it. And when it's a Christian book, featuring a message that you've prayed God would use to influence and transform lives, there's just nothing that compares to this.

Deadly Vipers is a beautiful little book. It's designed and packaged with superb creativity, and the content is the kind of relevant stuff that Christian leaders and laypeople everywhere need to hear. I'm hoping the outcry against the book's cultural blind spots will be tempered by grace and humility and empathy. I really resonate with this post at the Next Gener.Asian Church blog.

Think about what Foster and Wilhite must be feeling right now. Over the last year or two, they've invested their lives into this little book. They hoped and prayed that it would help others, but now they're feeling attacked by a passionate movement of folks whom they probably assumed would be on their side. I'm sure this has been an eye-opening experience for them. I'm sure there's something for all of us to learn.

An encouraging post at Soong-Chan's blog this morning:

I have heard indirectly, that Mike Foster will be engaging in a direct phone conversation with several Asian-Americans about ways to progress forward. This is very good news. As far as I know, this will be the first attempt by Mike Foster to engage in a direct dialogue with those who find the material problematic. Please be in prayer for this conversation and for ensuing conversations.

Let's pray for a positive outcome.

portrait-edward-gilbreathEdward Gilbreath is director of editorial for Urban Ministries Inc., editor of UrbanFaith.com, and the author of Reconciliation Blues: A Black Evangelical's Inside View of White Christianity. He blogs at Reconciliation Blog.

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by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 4:50pm

Does pop culture actually admire Asians?

Then why did the Dragonball movie have an all white cast? Why are there no east Asian actors in the upcoming Airbender movie? (They had a white kid playing Sokka, but when he pulled out they cast the kid from Slumdog Millionaire... If that movie hadn't done well, there wouldn't have been any minorities in the cast at all.)

Why are Asian men almost never seen as a romantic lead, and Asian women invariably written to have white boyfriends?

Pop culture loves to appropriate aspects of Asian culture, but in reality it shows very little respect to actual people of Asian origin.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 4:50pm

Does pop culture actually admire Asians?

Then why did the Dragonball movie have an all white cast? Why are there no east Asian actors in the upcoming Airbender movie? (They had a white kid playing Sokka, but when he pulled out they cast the kid from Slumdog Millionaire... If that movie hadn't done well, there wouldn't have been any minorities in the cast at all.)

Why are Asian men almost never seen as a romantic lead, and Asian women invariably written to have white boyfriends?

Pop culture loves to appropriate aspects of Asian culture, but in reality it shows very little respect to actual people of Asian origin.

by: arachne646

11-05-2009 @ 6:31pm

"I don't consider race". Is that perhaps because you're in the demographic group to which race doesn't matter? White people like me (and you?) can be oblivious to the racism that exists in North American society because it only affords them priviliges and not adversities. I'm not saying you're actively racist, but like most Americans, you don't see racism active in your community, and you're "bewildered and frustrated...by ultra-PC" efforts of people of color to name and demand the end of racism that they see. We have to talk and listen to each other and not assume our experiences are the truth, and our neighbors better like the way we like it done unto them.

by: arachne646

11-05-2009 @ 6:31pm

"I don't consider race". Is that perhaps because you're in the demographic group to which race doesn't matter? White people like me (and you?) can be oblivious to the racism that exists in North American society because it only affords them priviliges and not adversities. I'm not saying you're actively racist, but like most Americans, you don't see racism active in your community, and you're "bewildered and frustrated...by ultra-PC" efforts of people of color to name and demand the end of racism that they see. We have to talk and listen to each other and not assume our experiences are the truth, and our neighbors better like the way we like it done unto them.

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:40pm

Amen. That was a very kind and thoughtful reply to what made me want to holler and cuss. I will try to learn from your respectful tone!

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:40pm

Amen. That was a very kind and thoughtful reply to what made me want to holler and cuss. I will try to learn from your respectful tone!

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:46pm

I have to wonder if you'd have the same empathy and sense of solidarity as a Christian author if the images they used were of blackface and the like?

I've seen so many folks become enraged when the target is their own community but when it's another community (or a kind of bigotry viewed as "lesser than" say, misogyny as opposed to racism), it's all "aw, shucks. They didn't mean no harm. Let's not get too worked up over this."

I'm thrilled to see these folks coming forward and pointing out the ridiculous imagery. I'm sure the authors will learn a valuable lesson, grow and hopefully create a new dialog around their experience. But I'm not terribly thrilled about the undercurrent of "it's not that bad" simply because the stereotypes are based on Asian culture and deeply ingrained.

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:46pm

I have to wonder if you'd have the same empathy and sense of solidarity as a Christian author if the images they used were of blackface and the like?

I've seen so many folks become enraged when the target is their own community but when it's another community (or a kind of bigotry viewed as "lesser than" say, misogyny as opposed to racism), it's all "aw, shucks. They didn't mean no harm. Let's not get too worked up over this."

I'm thrilled to see these folks coming forward and pointing out the ridiculous imagery. I'm sure the authors will learn a valuable lesson, grow and hopefully create a new dialog around their experience. But I'm not terribly thrilled about the undercurrent of "it's not that bad" simply because the stereotypes are based on Asian culture and deeply ingrained.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 6:52pm

But how does one define disrespecting? It's a rather personal thing, and clearly a number of Christians of Asian origin feel they have been treated with disrespect.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 6:52pm

But how does one define disrespecting? It's a rather personal thing, and clearly a number of Christians of Asian origin feel they have been treated with disrespect.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 6:53pm

Hmmm, for some reason when I click the reply button, my posts aren't always ending up in the thread. Weird.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 6:53pm

Hmmm, for some reason when I click the reply button, my posts aren't always ending up in the thread. Weird.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-09-2009 @ 8:16pm

I was thinking of just walking around a black or Mexican community when I wrote that, and the compartments I mentioned are people's private homes and lives that they don't expect anyone to intrude. For that scenario, I don't think it's a cop-out.

For visiting a black or Mexican church, that's an easier step. However, you'll be disappointed that I have objections there too: My home church is in a period where everyone is expected to attend if at all possible. If a flash flood hits, I'm free to choose a church not affected by it. In that case, I need to muster enough will to overcome my introverted nature.

by: mindymama

11-09-2009 @ 8:07pm

It's really not that difficult to meet, know and love people of other races; blaming it on a "compartmentalized culture" is a cop-out. Visit a church which is either diverse or attended by people of a different race than yours. Visit a bunch of times and invite someone sitting beside you to join you for lunch or coffee. Doesn't this sound like a simple first step to crossing these racial boundaries to which you refer?

by: scottvolltrauer

11-08-2009 @ 10:05pm

While there are issues to talk through I agree with Edward, "I'm hoping the outcry against the book's cultural blind spots will be tempered by grace and humility and empathy."

Yes and I hope that when my blind spots are exposed that people will treat me with "grace and humility and empathy", but sadly that might be too much to ask.

http://mysilentscream.com

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-07-2009 @ 4:56pm

You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't.

I think we have a clash of intellectual ethics here. I am reading with an open mind as best I can, but then I am returning how I perceive the situation. I don't expect that my perception be taken as authoritative, especially to others who are uninformed. I do, however, expect it to be considered seriously by those with other opinions and then commented on. One of my main reasons for taking this approach is that some of the minority members don't understand why someone would hold my opinion. I want to present it in a civil and coherent fashion so the more extreme conservatives aren't the only ones here.

If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides".

No, I am actually sure there is disrespect and discrimination floating around. This just doesn't fit my idea of discrimination and I'm looking for clarification of why it should.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 9:44pm

First, I never said I was right. Of course an opinion is an opinion so I privately think I am right, but I'm not going to defy PC protests by following suit with what the protests were against. But neither will I support their protests until I agree with them. When the protests are put into an open forum, I will express my views honestly; this is the best way I know to increase understanding on both sides.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 9:44pm

First, I never said I was right. Of course an opinion is an opinion so I privately think I am right, but I'm not going to defy PC protests by following suit with what the protests were against. But neither will I support their protests until I agree with them. When the protests are put into an open forum, I will express my views honestly; this is the best way I know to increase understanding on both sides.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:00pm

I see no difference, other than how ingrained the PCness is (notice the twist in perspective). Although I acknowledge that some things shouldn't be done for the simple fact that they offend, I contend that they shouldn't offend in the first place. Using race for comic relief is fine; using an unconsenting individual for the same is not.

As noted above, my practice will remain perfectly neutral on this issue until this sort of humor (or whatever other rhetorical device it might be used for) is socially and morally acceptable.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:00pm

I see no difference, other than how ingrained the PCness is (notice the twist in perspective). Although I acknowledge that some things shouldn't be done for the simple fact that they offend, I contend that they shouldn't offend in the first place. Using race for comic relief is fine; using an unconsenting individual for the same is not.

As noted above, my practice will remain perfectly neutral on this issue until this sort of humor (or whatever other rhetorical device it might be used for) is socially and morally acceptable.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:04pm

I don't ascribe disrespect to a race. I believe they were offended, but not disrespected. Essentially, disrespect can only be (subconsciously) intended - not interpreted.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:04pm

I don't ascribe disrespect to a race. I believe they were offended, but not disrespected. Essentially, disrespect can only be (subconsciously) intended - not interpreted.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:21pm

I'm not into movies, especially current ones, so I can't really answer your questions. However, all the classics I know of (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, etc.) were Asian. And I think I've seen Asian men romantically interested in Asian women.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:21pm

I'm not into movies, especially current ones, so I can't really answer your questions. However, all the classics I know of (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, etc.) were Asian. And I think I've seen Asian men romantically interested in Asian women.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make.

I know, and I was indicating I wasn't convinced.

It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Des a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism? Is it possible for the people who catch the trend to be perfectly innocent? If they're innocent, why bother prosecuting?

Note: I'm not implying that the teacher you mentioned is innocent; I think she got racism from another source and applied it to that stereotype (which probably originated as racist).

My point in all of this is that I don't believe the book did any harm beyond the offense taken. While continuing the offensive act would be disrespectful, I want the offense to be rooted out so we don't have to bother walking on eggshells.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make.

I know, and I was indicating I wasn't convinced.

It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Des a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism? Is it possible for the people who catch the trend to be perfectly innocent? If they're innocent, why bother prosecuting?

Note: I'm not implying that the teacher you mentioned is innocent; I think she got racism from another source and applied it to that stereotype (which probably originated as racist).

My point in all of this is that I don't believe the book did any harm beyond the offense taken. While continuing the offensive act would be disrespectful, I want the offense to be rooted out so we don't have to bother walking on eggshells.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:46pm

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Does a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism?

Eventually, yes, because it makes assumptions that may or may not be true. My sister-in-law was once asked if black women put cooking grease in their hair, and the question offended her. (To that I responded, "But at least she asked!")

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:46pm

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Does a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism?

Eventually, yes, because it makes assumptions that may or may not be true. My sister-in-law was once asked if black women put cooking grease in their hair, and the question offended her. (To that I responded, "But at least she asked!")

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:53pm

Lol... That was pretty silly but I wouldn't call the other person racist. I'm not certain I would even call the stereotype racist; it could be based on an actual community that did that (as a result of racism).

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:53pm

Lol... That was pretty silly but I wouldn't call the other person racist. I'm not certain I would even call the stereotype racist; it could be based on an actual community that did that (as a result of racism).

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:58pm

But it was a stereotype based on hearsay and ignorance -- which is what we're talking about.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:58pm

But it was a stereotype based on hearsay and ignorance -- which is what we're talking about.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 11:06pm

I would never launch a campaign against hearsay or ignorance that doesn't actually harm anything. Talk about it in private, sure, but it doesn't belong in the public square.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 11:06pm

I would never launch a campaign against hearsay or ignorance that doesn't actually harm anything. Talk about it in private, sure, but it doesn't belong in the public square.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-09-2009 @ 10:16pm

I was thinking of just walking around a black or Mexican community when I wrote that, and the compartments I mentioned are people's private homes and lives that they don't expect anyone to intrude. For that scenario, I don't think it's a cop-out.

For visiting a black or Mexican church, that's an easier step. However, you'll be disappointed that I have objections there too: My home church is in a period where everyone is expected to attend if at all possible. If a flash flood hits, I'm free to choose a church not affected by it. In that case, I need to muster enough will to overcome my introverted nature.

by: mindymama

11-09-2009 @ 10:07pm

It's really not that difficult to meet, know and love people of other races; blaming it on a "compartmentalized culture" is a cop-out. Visit a church which is either diverse or attended by people of a different race than yours. Visit a bunch of times and invite someone sitting beside you to join you for lunch or coffee. Doesn't this sound like a simple first step to crossing these racial boundaries to which you refer?

by: arachne646

11-07-2009 @ 3:02pm

No, the best way to increase ones understanding is to humbly listen to other people's life experience without judging, and observing without first having and expressing ones opinion on what is right and what is wrong about depictions of a racial group that you admittedly have not had a lot of interaction with.You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't. "I have a right to my opinion" is of course true, and I support your right to express it, but stubborn expression of your uninformed opinion is not the best way to increase understanding on both sides. Listening to people in America who belong to minorities who experience disrespect and discrimination is. If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides". If you want to contact people of color, the internet is an excellent place--why not read Eugene Cho's blog without an opinion beforehand. God bless.

by: arachne646

11-07-2009 @ 3:02pm

No, the best way to increase ones understanding is to humbly listen to other people's life experience without judging, and observing without first having and expressing ones opinion on what is right and what is wrong about depictions of a racial group that you admittedly have not had a lot of interaction with.You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't. "I have a right to my opinion" is of course true, and I support your right to express it, but stubborn expression of your uninformed opinion is not the best way to increase understanding on both sides. Listening to people in America who belong to minorities who experience disrespect and discrimination is. If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides". If you want to contact people of color, the internet is an excellent place--why not read Eugene Cho's blog without an opinion beforehand. God bless.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-09-2009 @ 8:16pm

I was thinking of just walking around a black or Mexican community when I wrote that, and the compartments I mentioned are people's private homes and lives that they don't expect anyone to intrude. For that scenario, I don't think it's a cop-out.

For visiting a black or Mexican church, that's an easier step. However, you'll be disappointed that I have objections there too: My home church is in a period where everyone is expected to attend if at all possible. If a flash flood hits, I'm free to choose a church not affected by it. In that case, I need to muster enough will to overcome my introverted nature.

by: mindymama

11-09-2009 @ 8:07pm

It's really not that difficult to meet, know and love people of other races; blaming it on a "compartmentalized culture" is a cop-out. Visit a church which is either diverse or attended by people of a different race than yours. Visit a bunch of times and invite someone sitting beside you to join you for lunch or coffee. Doesn't this sound like a simple first step to crossing these racial boundaries to which you refer?

by: scottvolltrauer

11-08-2009 @ 10:05pm

While there are issues to talk through I agree with Edward, "I'm hoping the outcry against the book's cultural blind spots will be tempered by grace and humility and empathy."

Yes and I hope that when my blind spots are exposed that people will treat me with "grace and humility and empathy", but sadly that might be too much to ask.

http://mysilentscream.com

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-07-2009 @ 4:56pm

You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't.

I think we have a clash of intellectual ethics here. I am reading with an open mind as best I can, but then I am returning how I perceive the situation. I don't expect that my perception be taken as authoritative, especially to others who are uninformed. I do, however, expect it to be considered seriously by those with other opinions and then commented on. One of my main reasons for taking this approach is that some of the minority members don't understand why someone would hold my opinion. I want to present it in a civil and coherent fashion so the more extreme conservatives aren't the only ones here.

If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides".

No, I am actually sure there is disrespect and discrimination floating around. This just doesn't fit my idea of discrimination and I'm looking for clarification of why it should.

by: abasch

11-04-2009 @ 7:16pm

AWESOME and very multifaceted article.

by: abasch

11-04-2009 @ 7:16pm

AWESOME and very multifaceted article.

by: Kyle Reed

11-04-2009 @ 8:15pm

Very well written and a great review of what is happening and then giving your thoughts.
I am in total agreement with your views here in the way things were handled as well as putting myself in the shoes of Mike and Jud. I cannot imagine working on something so hard and then to have it cause so much pain and frustration.
I added your blog to my GoogleReader and look forward to more post from you.

by: Kyle Reed

11-04-2009 @ 8:15pm

Very well written and a great review of what is happening and then giving your thoughts.
I am in total agreement with your views here in the way things were handled as well as putting myself in the shoes of Mike and Jud. I cannot imagine working on something so hard and then to have it cause so much pain and frustration.
I added your blog to my GoogleReader and look forward to more post from you.

by: TimLiu

11-05-2009 @ 1:21am

Edward, thanks for taking the time to write this article. I think what you have written expresses exactly why many Asian Americans (like myself) are upset by this. No one expects us to be offended or to raise a ruckus. We should be used to being sterotyped.

But the point is that being called a ninja, a kung fu master, Bruce Lee, Ching Chong, Long Dong Wang or anything else i've been called in my life feels the same as being called a nigger.

I like the intent of the book and respect the authors, but some things are just unacceptable. It hurts, especially when coming from Christian brothers.

by: TimLiu

11-05-2009 @ 1:21am

Edward, thanks for taking the time to write this article. I think what you have written expresses exactly why many Asian Americans (like myself) are upset by this. No one expects us to be offended or to raise a ruckus. We should be used to being sterotyped.

But the point is that being called a ninja, a kung fu master, Bruce Lee, Ching Chong, Long Dong Wang or anything else i've been called in my life feels the same as being called a nigger.

I like the intent of the book and respect the authors, but some things are just unacceptable. It hurts, especially when coming from Christian brothers.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:12am

The thing that most confuses me about this issue is that there is nothing negative (in fact it's positive) about the stereotype except that it's a stereotype coming from another race. Just what is so degrading about such a thing?

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:12am

The thing that most confuses me about this issue is that there is nothing negative (in fact it's positive) about the stereotype except that it's a stereotype coming from another race. Just what is so degrading about such a thing?

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by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 4:50pm

Does pop culture actually admire Asians?

Then why did the Dragonball movie have an all white cast? Why are there no east Asian actors in the upcoming Airbender movie? (They had a white kid playing Sokka, but when he pulled out they cast the kid from Slumdog Millionaire... If that movie hadn't done well, there wouldn't have been any minorities in the cast at all.)

Why are Asian men almost never seen as a romantic lead, and Asian women invariably written to have white boyfriends?

Pop culture loves to appropriate aspects of Asian culture, but in reality it shows very little respect to actual people of Asian origin.

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 4:50pm

Does pop culture actually admire Asians?

Then why did the Dragonball movie have an all white cast? Why are there no east Asian actors in the upcoming Airbender movie? (They had a white kid playing Sokka, but when he pulled out they cast the kid from Slumdog Millionaire... If that movie hadn't done well, there wouldn't have been any minorities in the cast at all.)

Why are Asian men almost never seen as a romantic lead, and Asian women invariably written to have white boyfriends?

Pop culture loves to appropriate aspects of Asian culture, but in reality it shows very little respect to actual people of Asian origin.

by: arachne646

11-05-2009 @ 6:31pm

"I don't consider race". Is that perhaps because you're in the demographic group to which race doesn't matter? White people like me (and you?) can be oblivious to the racism that exists in North American society because it only affords them priviliges and not adversities. I'm not saying you're actively racist, but like most Americans, you don't see racism active in your community, and you're "bewildered and frustrated...by ultra-PC" efforts of people of color to name and demand the end of racism that they see. We have to talk and listen to each other and not assume our experiences are the truth, and our neighbors better like the way we like it done unto them.

by: arachne646

11-05-2009 @ 6:31pm

"I don't consider race". Is that perhaps because you're in the demographic group to which race doesn't matter? White people like me (and you?) can be oblivious to the racism that exists in North American society because it only affords them priviliges and not adversities. I'm not saying you're actively racist, but like most Americans, you don't see racism active in your community, and you're "bewildered and frustrated...by ultra-PC" efforts of people of color to name and demand the end of racism that they see. We have to talk and listen to each other and not assume our experiences are the truth, and our neighbors better like the way we like it done unto them.

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:40pm

Amen. That was a very kind and thoughtful reply to what made me want to holler and cuss. I will try to learn from your respectful tone!

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:40pm

Amen. That was a very kind and thoughtful reply to what made me want to holler and cuss. I will try to learn from your respectful tone!

by: consciouslyfrugal

11-05-2009 @ 6:46pm

I have to wonder if you'd have the same empathy and sense of solidarity as a Christian author if the images they used were of blackface and the like?

I've seen so many folks become enraged when the target is their own community but when it's another community (or a kind of bigotry viewed as "lesser than" say, misogyny as opposed to racism), it's all "aw, shucks. They didn't mean no harm. Let's not get too worked up over this."

I'm thrilled to see these folks coming forward and pointing out the ridiculous imagery. I'm sure the authors will learn a valuable lesson, grow and hopefully create a new dialog around their experience. But I'm not terribly thrilled about the undercurrent of "it's not that bad" simply because the stereotypes are based on Asian culture and deeply ingrained.

by: abasch

11-04-2009 @ 7:16pm

AWESOME and very multifaceted article.

by: abasch

11-04-2009 @ 7:16pm

AWESOME and very multifaceted article.

by: Kyle Reed

11-04-2009 @ 8:15pm

Very well written and a great review of what is happening and then giving your thoughts.
I am in total agreement with your views here in the way things were handled as well as putting myself in the shoes of Mike and Jud. I cannot imagine working on something so hard and then to have it cause so much pain and frustration.
I added your blog to my GoogleReader and look forward to more post from you.

by: Kyle Reed

11-04-2009 @ 8:15pm

Very well written and a great review of what is happening and then giving your thoughts.
I am in total agreement with your views here in the way things were handled as well as putting myself in the shoes of Mike and Jud. I cannot imagine working on something so hard and then to have it cause so much pain and frustration.
I added your blog to my GoogleReader and look forward to more post from you.

by: TimLiu

11-05-2009 @ 1:21am

Edward, thanks for taking the time to write this article. I think what you have written expresses exactly why many Asian Americans (like myself) are upset by this. No one expects us to be offended or to raise a ruckus. We should be used to being sterotyped.

But the point is that being called a ninja, a kung fu master, Bruce Lee, Ching Chong, Long Dong Wang or anything else i've been called in my life feels the same as being called a nigger.

I like the intent of the book and respect the authors, but some things are just unacceptable. It hurts, especially when coming from Christian brothers.

by: TimLiu

11-05-2009 @ 1:21am

Edward, thanks for taking the time to write this article. I think what you have written expresses exactly why many Asian Americans (like myself) are upset by this. No one expects us to be offended or to raise a ruckus. We should be used to being sterotyped.

But the point is that being called a ninja, a kung fu master, Bruce Lee, Ching Chong, Long Dong Wang or anything else i've been called in my life feels the same as being called a nigger.

I like the intent of the book and respect the authors, but some things are just unacceptable. It hurts, especially when coming from Christian brothers.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:12am

The thing that most confuses me about this issue is that there is nothing negative (in fact it's positive) about the stereotype except that it's a stereotype coming from another race. Just what is so degrading about such a thing?

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:12am

The thing that most confuses me about this issue is that there is nothing negative (in fact it's positive) about the stereotype except that it's a stereotype coming from another race. Just what is so degrading about such a thing?

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 3:13am

Perhaps you should read Eugene Cho's post on the issue?

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/04/three-general-t...

by: Ivriniel

11-05-2009 @ 3:13am

Perhaps you should read Eugene Cho's post on the issue?

http://blog.sojo.net/2009/11/04/three-general-t...

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 1:18pm

Well, African-Americans have "positive stereotypes" as well, specifically as entertainers (whether musicians, singers, dancers or athletes). But way too often that puts people on boxes, as though they're good for nothing else. Some years ago the daughter of a prominent local judge (and now churchmate) who once played for the local NFL team was booted from tryouts from a high school play because of her color. The teacher advised her: "Play a sport."

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 1:18pm

Well, African-Americans have "positive stereotypes" as well, specifically as entertainers (whether musicians, singers, dancers or athletes). But way too often that puts people on boxes, as though they're good for nothing else. Some years ago the daughter of a prominent local judge (and now churchmate) who once played for the local NFL team was booted from tryouts from a high school play because of her color. The teacher advised her: "Play a sport."

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:29pm

Does that translate to Asian-Americans? I've heard of that type of story before, but I don't think it's something about stereotypes that causes it. The root of that is in a truly degrading attitude that blacks are just sideshow clowns. And I don't think the Asian film industry is a fair comparison; to start, no racist white person ever admired black culture like pop culture now admires Asians.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:29pm

Does that translate to Asian-Americans? I've heard of that type of story before, but I don't think it's something about stereotypes that causes it. The root of that is in a truly degrading attitude that blacks are just sideshow clowns. And I don't think the Asian film industry is a fair comparison; to start, no racist white person ever admired black culture like pop culture now admires Asians.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:35pm

I dunno whether that was meant for me, but I did read that when I saw it on the front page. All it did was remind me of just how bewildered and frustrated I am by ultra-PC campaigns. I suppose the root of the issue is that I don't consider race something to be revered or honored. It crosses the line for me when you start disrespecting members of the race.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 2:35pm

I dunno whether that was meant for me, but I did read that when I saw it on the front page. All it did was remind me of just how bewildered and frustrated I am by ultra-PC campaigns. I suppose the root of the issue is that I don't consider race something to be revered or honored. It crosses the line for me when you start disrespecting members of the race.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 3:19pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make. It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

...to start, no racist white person ever admired black culture like pop culture now admires Asians.

Not true -- in fact, black entertainers often were booked to perform in white nightclubs, even in the South, back in the day; however, in many cases they still couldn't eat or even dress there.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 3:19pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make. It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

...to start, no racist white person ever admired black culture like pop culture now admires Asians.

Not true -- in fact, black entertainers often were booked to perform in white nightclubs, even in the South, back in the day; however, in many cases they still couldn't eat or even dress there.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 9:44pm

First, I never said I was right. Of course an opinion is an opinion so I privately think I am right, but I'm not going to defy PC protests by following suit with what the protests were against. But neither will I support their protests until I agree with them. When the protests are put into an open forum, I will express my views honestly; this is the best way I know to increase understanding on both sides.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 9:44pm

First, I never said I was right. Of course an opinion is an opinion so I privately think I am right, but I'm not going to defy PC protests by following suit with what the protests were against. But neither will I support their protests until I agree with them. When the protests are put into an open forum, I will express my views honestly; this is the best way I know to increase understanding on both sides.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:00pm

I see no difference, other than how ingrained the PCness is (notice the twist in perspective). Although I acknowledge that some things shouldn't be done for the simple fact that they offend, I contend that they shouldn't offend in the first place. Using race for comic relief is fine; using an unconsenting individual for the same is not.

As noted above, my practice will remain perfectly neutral on this issue until this sort of humor (or whatever other rhetorical device it might be used for) is socially and morally acceptable.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:00pm

I see no difference, other than how ingrained the PCness is (notice the twist in perspective). Although I acknowledge that some things shouldn't be done for the simple fact that they offend, I contend that they shouldn't offend in the first place. Using race for comic relief is fine; using an unconsenting individual for the same is not.

As noted above, my practice will remain perfectly neutral on this issue until this sort of humor (or whatever other rhetorical device it might be used for) is socially and morally acceptable.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:04pm

I don't ascribe disrespect to a race. I believe they were offended, but not disrespected. Essentially, disrespect can only be (subconsciously) intended - not interpreted.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:04pm

I don't ascribe disrespect to a race. I believe they were offended, but not disrespected. Essentially, disrespect can only be (subconsciously) intended - not interpreted.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:21pm

I'm not into movies, especially current ones, so I can't really answer your questions. However, all the classics I know of (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, etc.) were Asian. And I think I've seen Asian men romantically interested in Asian women.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:21pm

I'm not into movies, especially current ones, so I can't really answer your questions. However, all the classics I know of (Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, etc.) were Asian. And I think I've seen Asian men romantically interested in Asian women.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make.

I know, and I was indicating I wasn't convinced.

It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Des a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism? Is it possible for the people who catch the trend to be perfectly innocent? If they're innocent, why bother prosecuting?

Note: I'm not implying that the teacher you mentioned is innocent; I think she got racism from another source and applied it to that stereotype (which probably originated as racist).

My point in all of this is that I don't believe the book did any harm beyond the offense taken. While continuing the offensive act would be disrespectful, I want the offense to be rooted out so we don't have to bother walking on eggshells.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:32pm

Yes, it does -- that's the point I was trying to make.

I know, and I was indicating I wasn't convinced.

It's not just the "Asian film industry"; that kind of thing was going on in the mid-1800s on the West Coast.

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Des a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism? Is it possible for the people who catch the trend to be perfectly innocent? If they're innocent, why bother prosecuting?

Note: I'm not implying that the teacher you mentioned is innocent; I think she got racism from another source and applied it to that stereotype (which probably originated as racist).

My point in all of this is that I don't believe the book did any harm beyond the offense taken. While continuing the offensive act would be disrespectful, I want the offense to be rooted out so we don't have to bother walking on eggshells.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:46pm

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Does a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism?

Eventually, yes, because it makes assumptions that may or may not be true. My sister-in-law was once asked if black women put cooking grease in their hair, and the question offended her. (To that I responded, "But at least she asked!")

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:46pm

What kind of thing - Asian sideshows? Assuming that's what you mean, I'll try to connect the next dot. Does a trend with racist origins contaminate all bearers of that trend with racism?

Eventually, yes, because it makes assumptions that may or may not be true. My sister-in-law was once asked if black women put cooking grease in their hair, and the question offended her. (To that I responded, "But at least she asked!")

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:53pm

Lol... That was pretty silly but I wouldn't call the other person racist. I'm not certain I would even call the stereotype racist; it could be based on an actual community that did that (as a result of racism).

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 10:53pm

Lol... That was pretty silly but I wouldn't call the other person racist. I'm not certain I would even call the stereotype racist; it could be based on an actual community that did that (as a result of racism).

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:58pm

But it was a stereotype based on hearsay and ignorance -- which is what we're talking about.

by: BlueDeacon

11-05-2009 @ 10:58pm

But it was a stereotype based on hearsay and ignorance -- which is what we're talking about.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 11:06pm

I would never launch a campaign against hearsay or ignorance that doesn't actually harm anything. Talk about it in private, sure, but it doesn't belong in the public square.

by: Jesdisciple

11-05-2009 @ 11:06pm

I would never launch a campaign against hearsay or ignorance that doesn't actually harm anything. Talk about it in private, sure, but it doesn't belong in the public square.

by: arachne646

11-07-2009 @ 3:02pm

No, the best way to increase ones understanding is to humbly listen to other people's life experience without judging, and observing without first having and expressing ones opinion on what is right and what is wrong about depictions of a racial group that you admittedly have not had a lot of interaction with.You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't. "I have a right to my opinion" is of course true, and I support your right to express it, but stubborn expression of your uninformed opinion is not the best way to increase understanding on both sides. Listening to people in America who belong to minorities who experience disrespect and discrimination is. If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides". If you want to contact people of color, the internet is an excellent place--why not read Eugene Cho's blog without an opinion beforehand. God bless.

by: arachne646

11-07-2009 @ 3:02pm

No, the best way to increase ones understanding is to humbly listen to other people's life experience without judging, and observing without first having and expressing ones opinion on what is right and what is wrong about depictions of a racial group that you admittedly have not had a lot of interaction with.You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't. "I have a right to my opinion" is of course true, and I support your right to express it, but stubborn expression of your uninformed opinion is not the best way to increase understanding on both sides. Listening to people in America who belong to minorities who experience disrespect and discrimination is. If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides". If you want to contact people of color, the internet is an excellent place--why not read Eugene Cho's blog without an opinion beforehand. God bless.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-07-2009 @ 4:56pm

You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't.

I think we have a clash of intellectual ethics here. I am reading with an open mind as best I can, but then I am returning how I perceive the situation. I don't expect that my perception be taken as authoritative, especially to others who are uninformed. I do, however, expect it to be considered seriously by those with other opinions and then commented on. One of my main reasons for taking this approach is that some of the minority members don't understand why someone would hold my opinion. I want to present it in a civil and coherent fashion so the more extreme conservatives aren't the only ones here.

If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides".

No, I am actually sure there is disrespect and discrimination floating around. This just doesn't fit my idea of discrimination and I'm looking for clarification of why it should.

by: Chris "Jesdisciple"

11-07-2009 @ 4:56pm

You are not qualified to have opinions on any Asian/American's experiences of stereotypes of them and how this racism affects their lives, or doesn't.

I think we have a clash of intellectual ethics here. I am reading with an open mind as best I can, but then I am returning how I perceive the situation. I don't expect that my perception be taken as authoritative, especially to others who are uninformed. I do, however, expect it to be considered seriously by those with other opinions and then commented on. One of my main reasons for taking this approach is that some of the minority members don't understand why someone would hold my opinion. I want to present it in a civil and coherent fashion so the more extreme conservatives aren't the only ones here.

If you are sure that there are none, we will have to agree to disagree that we can "increase understanding on both sides".

No, I am actually sure there is disrespect and discrimination floating around. This just doesn't fit my idea of discrimination and I'm looking for clarification of why it should.

by: scottvolltrauer

11-08-2009 @ 10:05pm

While there are issues to talk through I agree with Edward, "I'm hoping the outcry against the book's cultural blind spots will be tempered by grace and humility and empathy."

Yes and I hope that when my blind spots are exposed that people will treat me with "grace and humility and empathy", but sadly that might be too much to ask.

http://mysilentscream.com

by: scottvolltrauer

11-08-2009 @ 10:05pm

While there are issues to talk through I agree with Edward, "I'm hoping the outcry against the book's cultural blind spots will be tempered by grace and humility and empathy."

Yes and I hope that when my blind spots are exposed that people will treat me with "grace and humility and empathy", but sadly that might be too much to ask.

http://mysilentscream.com

by: mindymama

11-09-2009 @ 8:07pm

It's really not that difficult to meet, know and love people of other races; blaming it on a "compartmentalized culture" is a cop-out. Visit a church which is either diverse or attended by people of a different race than yours. Visit a bunch of times and invite someone sitting beside you to join you for lunch or coffee. Doesn't this sound like a simple first step to crossing these racial boundaries to which you refer?